Indians Trade Shoppach
Sandy must not have liked what he saw on the tapes of Indians catchers. Be interested to see what kind of prospect Shoppach will bring in return.
9 months ago
tobytobytoby
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and, to a lesser degree, Chris Gimenez
i am thinking about making this my signature.
by Brick. on Dec 1, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
That the Indians got anything in return for Shoppach is a bit of a surprise, because he was sure to be granted free agency at the non-tender deadline.
I still don’t buy any of this.
Makes sense. The Rays had a need at catcher. Hopefully we pick up someone who is a little closer to MLB ready for him. But I really won’t complain about who it is, seeing as he was in line to make close to $3mil (est.) this year, and we have a gluttony of catchers.
by MooneysRebellion on Dec 1, 2009 2:52 PM EST reply actions
so i’ve heard…hopefully we can pluck one from them.
by MooneysRebellion on Dec 1, 2009 3:24 PM EST up reply actions
I love that as a collective noun: A gluttony of catchers.
Perhaps we can work the other seven deadly sins in: A despair of relief pitching; a wrath of fans; a sloth of trade deadlines.
2009. Oof.
by Julie on Dec 3, 2009 10:07 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Unrec’d. Spell it right, my good man.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Dec 6, 2009 12:21 AM EST up reply actions
“a wrath of fans” to be certain. Just check out Cle.com any day of the week.
by MooneysRebellion on Dec 3, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions
We know the drill by now: Let’s start making wild guesses about the prospect, then get into a fight with D-Rays Bay because we’re way off.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Dec 1, 2009 2:59 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
I’ll start. Wade Davis! (tongue planted so deep into cheek that it’s hurting my uvula)
"Nobody ever thinks, 'Hey, maybe I’m actually an idiot.'" - Jay
I misread this as “vulva”, which really changed the meaning.
by fwembt on Dec 1, 2009 7:24 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I still don’t believe Kelly Shoppach was going to be non-tendered due to money issues. I still believe Kelly Shoppach is one of the best 30 catchers in baseball.
I think this was purely a production thing, and the Indians like Lou Marson in 2010.
agreed. why bring in a guy like Marson, and keep Shoppach who is scheduled to make middling money. I firmly believe he is a good catcher as well, but it just didn’t make sense to keep him.
by MooneysRebellion on Dec 1, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t think there will be an argument here about this opinion.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
I don’t think it was production.
I think it was more like, you don’t pay Shoppach what he’ll make in 2010 + 2011 just so we can have our best guy for one of those two seasons, 2011, when it might actually matter.
Also, he isn’t our best guy for 2011 anyway.
If Chisenhall were a year closer, Peralta might have been traded today, too.
by Jay on Dec 1, 2009 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
Good luck to Kelly, I hear that Tampa has a new hitting coach to work with.
by GoTribe028 on Dec 1, 2009 3:01 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Also! I believe the rules allow us to select a player from our own organization, e.g., Yohan Pino, as long as another team doesn’t select him first. We could well afford to keep Pino in the majors this season, I would think.
Also, Greg Zaun was quoted as saying that he’s close to signing somewhere.
My guess is that the Rays learned that he’d sign elsewhere, so they jumped on Shoppach now before the Indians made another move. And it happened so quickly that the Indians and Rays hadn’t finalized the return, resulting in the PTBNL.
Or, the Rays plan on non-tending Navarro, and wanted to go with Zaun and Shoppach. I think it’s more likely that Shoppach backs up Navarro.
I think consensus is that Navarro’s gone, for what it’s worth.
And, to a lesser degree, Chris Gimenez.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Dec 1, 2009 3:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i think they were rushed to make this move to take attention away from the sizemore picture scandal.
Man, we’ve already talked a lot about Shoppach.
I wish we had something on the PTBNL. Does Brantley’s agent work with any Rays?
Steel Nick
i feel like we’ll just get some lower level pitching – nothing that will matter anytime soon. and, to a lesser degree, Chris Gimenez
Seems like an odd place he’d go for a vacation.
Is this the whale section?
by sarcasmdave on Dec 1, 2009 10:51 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
So does this free up space for Grilli on the 40 man?
No, not you. Your helmet!
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 1, 2009 3:16 PM EST reply actions
Given this trade, I guess our starting catcher pair for 2010 is (read: should be) Marson and Toregas.
Why would you say “rec” but not actually take 5 seconds to actually click the Rec button?
by lenred on Dec 1, 2009 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
What, are you the rec-police all-the-sudden?
No, not you. Your helmet!
by PatBordersHelmet on Dec 1, 2009 6:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It runs rampant. I think people some people confuse reccing the same way Michael Scott declares bankruptcy.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Dec 1, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Rec
…and I took the five seconds to actually click the “rec” button
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Dec 1, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So now we’re down to the following significant holdovers from the ‘05-’07 team:
- Peralta (next to go)
- Hafner (mostly untradeable)
- Grady (should be part of the next good team)
- Westbrook (not on the market until after recovery)
- Carmona (we’re going to keep trying)
- Sowers (zzzzzzzzz, this is going to end with a whimper)
I heard on MLBTR, that the d-backs are looking for a back end starter. Sowers fits this bill, and might flourish in the NLWest.
by MooneysRebellion on Dec 1, 2009 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
Sowers has flip flopped the last four seasons between giving up more GB and more FB. A guy who doesn’t keep the ball on the ground doesn’t seem to fit in Chase Field. Webb, Haren, Scherzer, and Doug Davis all induce more GB than FB, and I don’t think it’s by accident that Byrnes has built a rotation that includes them.
I’m glad he’s out of the way. They’ll start Marson, I guess, but I hope they don’t wait too long to bring up Santana.
To hell with the service clock. The guy hits the crap out of the ball and plays OK, but improving defense. Bring him up sooner rather than later.
Yes, to play for a .500 team would be great. Get him in there now so he gains enough experience so that 2011 isn’t also a waste.
that’s a ridiculus trade off. by spending a couple months in AAA (where he’s never seen time) you gain a whole year of use closer to his peak at the end of his team control clock.
What is the general deadline so that he gains the additional year? Early June? I think I am okay with him coming up after then, but I want it to be right then unless he is really struggling.
i know it’s a moving target, but i’m pretty sure jay placed it in early june based on previous years’ super-two threshold. as many times as he told us in the laporta conversations, we should all have it memorized by now. it got screwed up a bit when they brought laporta up for that first stint…
Sure, if it’s down only until June and then they bring him up to stay, I’m OK with that. But no, it’s not ridiculous to get your prospects some MLB experience at the expense of some service time.
it’s ridiculous not to do both at the expense of impatience. there is plenty of time in the season to get him some time at AAA and in the MLB. the difference between the two in the first couple months wouldn’t be offset by the negatives of losing a year of team control and the risk of having him be overmatched.
I think the risk they’re worried about is having immature game-calling skills and a bunch of under-ripe pitchers.
This may be something that us casual observers are missing in all of this catcher movement, as well. Is the front office really placing a high value on Marson’s game calling and defense? Perhaps they felt Shoppach was well below average and given his offensive decline and expected salary increase, the move was the correct one.
May also determine how quickly Santana gets called up next year.
Get him in there now so he gains enough experience so that 2011 isn’t also a waste.
Flipped: Bringing him up now to be overmatched either offensively or defensively will only stunt his growth and lead to a return trip to the minors when we might actually need him.
Neither of us knows what will happen, but we both know we don’t have to count on him now.
Steel Nick
Yeah, this has never worked out for young players before. I mean nobody has ever made the jump from AA to the majors and gone on to have a successful career.
I think you need to back off the ledge. If Santana is in the majors from July till September, are you really concerned that the lost time from April to June has retarded his development?
I mean, really?
No, I’m not. But I don’t think it’s that ridiculous to want the young guys up like some commenters up above have stated. But yet, having him up from June till the end of the year is fine by me.
I also want an economically/competitively balanced MLB, but I’m not holding my breath.
by danvail on Dec 2, 2009 8:30 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Why isn’t this green yet?
"Nobody ever thinks, 'Hey, maybe I’m actually an idiot.'" - Jay
by woodsmeister on Dec 2, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions
Counting chickens before they are hatched? Santana is recalled from the DR, no winter ball this year. (But don’t worry, says the FO, he’s fine.) Haven’t we had ample opportunities to recognize the perils of penciling in a hot prospect before he is on the MLB club? Santana looks like he cannot miss, but there was once a sure-thing pitcher who was going to make us forget about Sabathia.
I think we should treat our best prospects like they will be impact major leaguers and if they fail, then we deal with the repercussions of poor scouting.
Obviously it’s not a sure thing, but if we are afraid of playing our best prospects, we are left with a multitude of mediocre at best players just because they have major league experience.
I can see the wisdom of what you’re saying, but I also understand the temptation to get him up to Cleveland and damn the super twos. Let’s see what we have, and not be so concerned with the niceties.
Why guard him so carefully so that sometime in 20xx he will remain under team control for another year? To me that is a highly conjectural point to be concerned about. It seems to me like an example of Shapiroan overthinking.
You think the Twins consider it highly conjectural, with Mauer now one year from free agency rather than two? Somehow I doubt it. Managing service time is a fiduciary responsibility, plain and simple, and it has netted us plenty.
For an impact position player, the difference between reaching arbitration for that fourth season and not doing so can reach upwards of $10 million. There’s no question Santana is in that category, significantly more so than LaPorta. (Speaking of LaPorta, is it also highly conjectural that God told him to sign with Scott Boras?)
Now, you want to talk about pitchers, that’s a different story. Service time is almost — almost — not worth thinking about at all for older pitchers and relievers, and you could make the argument that even a young impact pitcher should be brought up whenever, regardless. For pitchers, the question of salary in year four or club control in year seven is, in fact, highly conjectural.
by Jay on Dec 3, 2009 1:31 AM EST up reply actions
You’re right about Mauer, of course, but you have the benefit of six years of big league playing time to make it clear. It’s a bit murkier in 2002. It could be they make significantly less revenue without him (though if we’re talking 80 games, probably not).
If a player doesn’t last four years, arbitration doesn’t matter. There is a risk in not playing Santana and there is a risk to playing him. Maybe there are times to be less cautious. That’s a good point about pitchers versus position players. My thinking about this is based on pitching, which as you point out isn’t necessarily valid for a catcher.
(Speaking of LaPorta, is it also highly conjectural that God told him to sign with Scott Boras?)
I would say yes, unless there is some sort of evidence.
Recalled because he has the flu. Unless they’re totally lying, I don’t see it as something worth worrying about.
I know. That makes me nervous. But my point is that no matter how highly valued this guy is, he hasn’t performed yet in the bigs. What if he craps the bed in AAA in 2010?
Oh, I know. You just keep asking these questions that lead to nowhere.
Before you make an appointment, do you take time to contemplate fully each of the many ways you might meet your death, before you get a chance to keep it?
by Jay on Dec 4, 2009 1:13 AM EST up reply actions
More than you might imagine.
But I’m trying to point out all the certainty: here’s where we’re going to put the World Series trophy, the first one. We haven’t decided what to do with the others yet. We’ll cross that bridge when we come to it. But we have the special place for that first one all ready to go. It will look great there.
I’m told there’s a developmental risk in bringing up a position player too soon. And there are cost risks: if he turns out great you lose a year of control.
But why be so timid all the time? You could say that’s the peril of a small-market team. Maybe if Adam Miller had been up and pitching for the big club things would have turned out differently.
It’s tough to argue for recklessness, but that’s what I seem to be doing.
So here are both sides of the argument for bringing up Santana early, as presented by one of its chief advocates (Odradek):
Cons:
- There’s a developmental risk
- If he turns out great, you lose a year of control
Pros:
- Don’t be timid!
I actually agree the Indians could and should be more aggressive about this, but I would point out that they were pretty aggressive with Valbuena just last season, and willing to stick with him even as he posted some atrocious numbers early on.
I think LaPorta (and possibly even Brown) fell into some wormhole where Wedge and/or others got obsessed with defensive shortcomings that were not going to get fixed in Triple-A and/or weren’t the end of the world anyway.
Similar situation with Santana. Once he gets to the bigs, he’ll be challenged to adjust his hitting at that level. That increases the importance of making sure he’s a polished game-caller before he gets here. Plus, the money and control stuff.
So I will join you in this argument over some other guy — Brantley, eventually? — but with Santana, if they say he needs a little more work on his game-calling, I say keep him down for another couple of months and save he $8 million or whatever.
It ought to be tough to argue for squandering $8 million, but I guess the abstraction is tough for people to hold in their heads. No object permanence.
Relative to the role he’s expected to play, that’s not clear just yet.
by Jay on Dec 4, 2009 4:32 PM EST up reply actions
That would not be a wormhole, that would be the entire universe.
by Jay on Dec 4, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions
Valbuena is an interesting example. He clearly appeared overmatched at times, but he “made good outs,” to quote Wedge. He shows signs of figuring it out.
You’re absolutely right about Santana needing to be a finished product. Game-calling, defensive abilities and English skills all need to be ready. Add $8 million and it’s hard to argue against.
I’m questioning this more as a Shapiro paradigm. Sometimes—maybe with Brantley—you should just go for it.
Top of the page, Shapiro conference call. I don’t know if there’s anything noteworthy in it yet.
Steel Nick
most about p.t. for marsoregastana, also about arbitration.
a vet would not be as a starter, just as NRI or back-up.
marson upper hand at starting, open mind.
stop asking if santana can start year in MLB. i’ve told you a billion times he needs to work on some things at AAA first.
PTBNL might be 25-man guy. might not.
dec 20th deadline means nothing significant.
other teams were interested in shoppach.
marson is neato.
alomar means catchers don’t need vet presence.
no comment on grady situation. has full support of team and may borrow team dishware.
santana expected some time this season. reminds reporters season goes from april to september. bat is polished. not by grady.
skinner can have same if not more impact in AA. doesn’t matter for his development. plus, he saves on gas money.
by Brick. on Dec 1, 2009 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 6 recs
He isn’t an impact bat, but that arm of his is fun to watch. At the plate he is like the anti-shoppach. He is consistently even, or slightly positive in +/-. And he is young.
GET INSPIRED!
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
Whoa, this is heavy. Does this mean you’re related to Marson?
by odradek on Dec 1, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It means Marson reminds him of his father, who beat him.
by Jay on Dec 1, 2009 10:09 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
He isn’t an impact bat
I assume this means he doesn’t have power. He has a more consistent record of not getting out than any catcher we’ve had of late in the Indians organization outside of Victor.
by APV on Dec 1, 2009 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Einar developed into an impact bat eventually.
by Jay on Dec 1, 2009 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Why would it be any less valuable? or even different?
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
Well, it’s a measure of how many more plays the player is making at his position compared to his peers at the same position. Are catchers really given the opportunity to make extra plays? Dive for that many more balls? Unless I’m misunderstanding +/-.
I took a glance at Dewan’s leaderboard, and he doesn’t even include catchers.
Steel Nick
You know who is a good defensive catcher? Wyatt Toregas is a good defensive catcher.
by APV on Dec 2, 2009 9:17 AM EST up reply actions
I’m going to laugh childishly at Grady jokes for a few more months, at least.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Dec 1, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
Kelly was running out of his.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Dec 1, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions
I prefer ones that can get batters out.
by JulioBernazard on Dec 2, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Tampa fans are throwing his name around, as well as Mitch Talbot….
Obviously non of that means anything, but thought it was relevent if we’re guess who the Indians get back….
If anyone’s mentioned him, it’s not him.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Dec 1, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Would it be possible that the Indians draft Rodriquez in the Rule 5 and then complete the trade with the Rays with him as the PTBNL thus not forcing the Tribe to keep him on the 25 man all season? Is that the reason for the Dec 20 deadline? If Rodriquez is taken in the Rule 5 ahead of the Tribe’s pick they have time to select another player from a list.
What is the record for turnover on a 25 man roster is between opening days?
We’re probably around 50%.
fka "DaytonDogg". Now a contributor to SBN's Dawgs By Nature. www.dawgsbynature.com
As a Rays and Indians fan I am glad to see this move and will welcome him to Tampa. I think this might be an end to Dioner Navarro here in Tampa. I think Shoppach will platoon Catcher with Gregg Zaun next year in Tampa. Shoppach against lefty pitchers and Zaun against rightys. Navarro had to go he was horrendous behind the plate last year very lazy and even worse with a bat in his hands.
"Geno Hayes sucks though
He is one notch above Sabby Piscatelli
by Sveet on Dec 1, 2009 12:34 PM EST"
You’ve aptly described how many Indians fans felt about Kelly Shoppach. Whether they were justified…
Not that dealing Shoppach had anything to do with this, and it may change with spring deals for Asdrual and Choo, but the Indians have only $26.6M guaranteed for 2011.
Grady: $7.5M
Fausto: $6.1M
Hafner: $13M
They hold a club option on Jhonny for $7M ($250K buyout) and, of course, Kerry Wood’s $11M vesting option. That’s some serious payroll flexibility.
xrick you forgot westbrook’s contract. Sorry, my reply button doesn’t work for some reason.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
Tony’s speculating that the Indians are focusing on Rays’ players currently playing winter ball, and suggests Willy Aybar. Not sure I buy that line of speculation, but there it is.
Umm….No. Aybar is going to make something between $1.5-2.5M in 2010 (depending on whether a contract escalator comes into effect) and has a club option for 2011 at $2.2-3.2M. I think I can say with some degree of certainty that this is NOT the kind of player (high cost, short team control) the Indians want in return for Shoppach.
by APV on Dec 2, 2009 9:28 AM EST up reply actions
Also, I’m skeptical of Tony’s logic that the Dec. 20th deadline probably means the Indians are looking at players in winter ball right now. I think it could just as easily mean they want time to look over reports on players they already have.
by APV on Dec 2, 2009 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
Shap pretty explicitly said the deadline didn’t have a context, right? As in, they just sort of picked a day?
I wouldn’t be so confident. I don’t know if the Rays have any interest in giving Aybar up, but wouldn’t he essentially replace Jamey Carroll? And isn’t his contract very similar to the one Carroll had when we acquired him too years ago — only not quite as rich?
Aybar also is under club control through 2012, and he has some real upside in terms of his tools.
by Jay on Dec 2, 2009 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
and, to a lesser degree, Chris Gimenez
by Brick. on Dec 2, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Jamey Carroll is a luxury? What are we, the Pirates?
by lenred on Dec 2, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Of all the places to have a multimillion dollar salary, only contending/richer teams can afford to pay their utility infielder so much.
When you’re scraping by, you don’t waste money on a utility infielder in a reloading year.
Carroll already said he’s going to test the market. This does not mean he will be re-signing with the Tribe.
I think even if Carroll returned at the same price, the Indians would rather have Aybar for a little less — both for the player and for the little less.
by Jay on Dec 2, 2009 8:17 PM EST up reply actions
but hasn’t Shapiro been quoted basically saying, “Jamey Carroll might be a luxury we can’t afford in 2010”
Yes, but he meant what Carroll will command in 2010, not what he’s been making.
This guy will make less than Carroll was making, while Carroll himself might make a little more.
by Jay on Dec 2, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
I didn’t really agree with this guess — only because I don’t think players of Aybar’s caliber are usually PTBNL. The Indians really like the PTBNL idea, so I’m trying to discard the stigma. Maybe the Indians want to see him play second base for a few weeks in winter ball before they make the move? But I didn’t think the Indians would target a guy already in his arbitration years.
But, the Rays do have a glut up the middle. Bartlett is under control for two more seasons, Zobrist for four more, and the Rays just picked up 2B/SS Sean Rodriguez from the Angels in the Kazmir deal. Also, the Rays have Reid Brignac at the major league level. However, Aybar was also the primary backup 3B for Longoria. But I’m not sure you hesitate to deal your backup 3B for a starting catcher, so it could make sense.
This isn’t a major deal to bring talent into the organization, it’s a trade of an okay starting player for something else of okay value. I don’t think arbitration rules the guy out, especially given he has a specific contract for very low dollars.
Feh, I think we’re filled to the gills with such guys. The only question is, once they get “up,” will it be high enough?
Aybar isn’t a high-upside guy, but he has some upside. I still see this as filling an organizational need. That is, we pay a couple million for the fact that Josh-Rod isn’t panning out and Donald walks with a cane.
by Jay on Dec 2, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
Don’t get me wrong, I like Aybar. I had him as Cleveland’s 3B target last offseason before they went and got DeRosa. I’m part of the “Shoppach is more valuable than you think” train, which leads me to believe that the Indians will get more than a non-roster project for him. I don’t know if I really believe that, or if that’s just me being a hopeful Tribe fan.
I just thought the Indians would go for somebody more defensively minded to spell Valbuena at 2B, especially if they are going to platoon him.
I have yet to see any analytically savvy source call Shoppach a legit non-tender candidate. It’s all been from the MSM, batting average, strikeouts, weak grasp of positional value, etc.
The Rays arguably have a better and more comprehensive grasp of the value of each player as an assets than any other club. It doesn’t surprise me that they would be the top bidder for Shoppach, and I could care less if 23 teams are too dumb to want him. Two bidders make a market.
by Jay on Dec 2, 2009 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
Seriously… every single stupid offseason MSM article I’ve seen has us nontendering him. And every time, I think “no way, idiots.”
I actually have found myself thinking, as I read this from multiple sources, “Hey, maybe I’m the idiot.”
by Jay on Dec 2, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
so this is what it sounds like, when doves cry?
by emil minty on Dec 2, 2009 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and, to a lesser degree, Chris Giminez.
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Dec 2, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So, your choice
If you could choose between Aybar, Talbott, Rodriquez and McGee who would it be?
Pitch them to us. Most of us have no idea who those guys are.
by Jay on Dec 2, 2009 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
Without hesitation McGee.
Former top prospect. Before TJ, he was throwing ~100 mph with 2 plus pitches, maybe more. And he’s a lefty. Plus, without having any time in the majors, we’d have him for 6 years. The preliminary talk I’ve seen is them possibly moving him to closer this year or next.
I’d be all for getting him, especially as a PTBNL.
I like McGee—but the Indians are living high on hurlers with injury questions. There’s Hagadone, Knapp, Bryson, the nameless one previously called Adam Miller, KDLC, and late-season but hopefully not too serious Alexander Perez. McGee had a rough recovery in 2009 from 2008 TJ surgery, but his rough patch at A+ included a high BABIP. He should be at AA or AAA next season, and it probably will be AA.
Granted, one way you stockpile talent is to get it when it’s value is at its lowest, and I think the Indians as much as any team utilize this strategy to acquire players that teams otherwise wouldn’t trade. In that respect, he makes perfect sense as the PTBNL. After the Knapp fiasco, maybe the Rays are going to update their medical reports on McGee and share those with the Indians so the Indians can make a decision as to whether they’re willing to accept a guy coming off TJ surgery.
For the Indians to use Shoppach to net yet another high risk/reward pitcher would make sense. I do find it exhausting, though. Those juicy position player prospects are just so much less … conjectural.
by Jay on Dec 3, 2009 1:33 AM EST up reply actions
I know TJ surgery is not as automatic as some might perceive, but it seems like there’s a world of difference between grabbing some post-TJ (Hagadone), and rolling the dice with someone with unknown soreness (Knapp).
I think all pitchers have soreness. Undiagnosed might be the word.
by Jay on Dec 3, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
The comparison to Knapp was not based on similarity of injury, but on the fact that the Indians, as the receiving team in the trade, can’t give the player the same medical overview as the team that currently controls the player. Knowing that, perhaps the Indians asked the Rays to get together all their due diligence on McGee or Talbott (who just finished pitching in the AFL after missing time this year with an arm injury). Then, the Indians can review the updated information.
Teams don’t knowingly trade damaged goods for a few reasons. There’s a grievance process in which the trade can be undone (unlikely) or the receiving team can receive more compensation (more likely). Plus, you generally don’t want the reputation of selling damaged goods. It’s a small universe, and I imagine this is one form of professional suicide.
With that being said, the Phillies (with Knapp) and the Rays (with either injured player) really have no requirement to continually give physicals to their players just to clear them for a trade. It’d be more of a courtesy thing.
you generally don’t want the reputation of selling damaged goods
This is the main reason.
by Jay on Dec 3, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions
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