I know we discussed this but I am still upset with CC
There's just something about seeing CC smile in a Yankees uniform that makes me wanna punch my computer screen everytime I see it.
about 1 year ago
Tribe_Hippie
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CC Sabathia, right, and A.J. Burnett will make up two-fifths of the Yankees’ rotation in 2009. – Stark
Let me fix this:
CC Sabathia, right, and A.J. Burnett will make up two-fifths of the Yankees’ rotationin 2009until going on the 60-Day DL in early May.
Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.
I’d like to note that I’m not actively rooting for an injury to any player, that would show impossibly bad, Pierzynski-esque sportsmanship; however, I would not be too broken up about it if they were to get injured. /clarification.
Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.
I’ll root for CC to win every game he pitches, but the team loses every other game in the season.
Sorry guys, I still like him.
by mjschaefer on Feb 14, 2009 2:54 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
So, you want to see him go into the HOF in a Yankees cap? Because that’s the end result of what you’re rooting for.
I’d be proud to say I watched on of the best pitchers in baseball on my team for a few years…so yeah I guess I’d be cool with it.
That is profoundly warped. We’re not talking about Robbie Alomar going in as a Blue Jay. We’re talking about a homegrown Cleveland Indian, the best Indians pitcher of the last 40 years, going in as a Yankee. If that doesn’t repulse you, then there’s something about Indians fandom that you just don’t get.
I love Manny Ramirez, for example, but the thought of him in Cooperstown wearing a Red Sox hat boils my blood.
it is my dream that manny requests he go in as an Indian. i know it wouldn’t even matter, but that request would be enough for me.
manny. i miss you.
So 2009.
by Gradyforpresident on Feb 15, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
Manny will request going in with no hat, just with his head scarf. Maybe with a dollar sign symbol.
by odradek on Feb 15, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Wow I’m having my fandom questioned because I happen to like a player that played for my team for seven years…I mean seriously?
He’s a Yankee. I still like him despite the pinstripes and the obvious hatred that come with him being a Yankee. I don’t give a hoot if the team does well. But why would I root for injury or no success for a player I loved for seven years?
We just think differently and it is basically a difference of you not separating the player from the team.
by mjschaefer on Feb 15, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I’d argue that a player’s character does not depend on which team he plays for. I know that fans think that all their players are great and can do no wrong while opposing players are all terrible people, but as you grow older and mature you realize that there are plenty of bad people on your teams and plenty of good people on other teams. You can still root for the players on your team and root against the opposition, but you also know a player is the same person no matter which uniform he is wearing.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
I was referring to all the people who claim CC is a bad person because he signed with the Yankees.
Also, it’s okay to like a player on another team and want him to do well as long as it doesn’t hurt your team. When a player plays a long time in for one team, fans of that team are bound to have an attachment to that player even when he leaves. Look at how many Indians fans still rooted for Omar after he signed with the Giants.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions
All right fine – you haven’t gotten it before, you don’t get it now and you’ll never understand. He’s Yankee for chrissakes! If they traded him tomorrow to any other club it’d be fine with your fanboydom, but they haven’t and they won’t. Until they do, he’s dead to me for as long as he wears that fakakta uniform.
That’s fine, Chuck. I never said you, or anyone else, had to like him or root for him now that he’s a Yankee. I hate the Yankees and I hope they never have a winning season for the rest of their existence if that makes you feel any better. But I’m not going to be so naive to think that he becamse a different person the minute he signed his contract. Players change teams all the time but that doesn’t change the person that they are. That’s all I’m saying.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 3:33 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t get this. I want the Indians to go 162-0. i also want the Yankees to go 0-162. but I don’t see what is so wrong with wanting CC pitching really well. It’s baseball. There is a high level of individual competition that goes with the team thing. I think its easy to separate the player from the team and root for one and not the other.
Manny is a great example- he remains my favorite non-Indian. He’s just so great to watch.
I also cheered for Thome. Although, I really wanted the Indians to make it back to the playoffs before Thome when he left. I think one of the BS lines he gave when he left is that he thought he could get back to the playoffs quicker. He lost that one.
It actually made more sense when Thome said it than when Manny said it. We were directly entering a rebuilding period and the Phillies had a great young core already established. We won 90 games the year after Manny left, without him.
We just think differently and it is basically a difference of you not separating the player from the team.
As a baseball player, Sabathia is a Yankee now. He is only a Yankee, and he is 100% a Yankee.
He is a Yankee every time he takes the mound. He will never throw a pitch except as a Yankee.
You root for him, you are rooting for the Yankees. The two are inseparable until and unless the Yankees trade him.
The Yankees are the primary reason why our club can’t get a fair shake at making the playoffs and are disgusting.
Sabathia is by his own choice a part of that institution now.
You root for the Yankees.
Yeah, this is pretty much crap.
I’m not sure how I’ll react when CC pitches for the Yankees- it hasn’t happened yet. I do know that when he pitched for the Brewers, a team I couldn’t care less about, I wanted him to succeed. I was rooting for him, the person. I enjoyed the persona that he portrayed to the fans through the media and on the mound. I enjoyed his talent. I enjoyed his style. I liked him and I cheered for him to succeed. The Brewers losing in the first round didn’t bother me at all. I was bothered that CC failed in the playoffs again- that sucked. It doesn’t compare to the hurt of an Indians loss- not even close. But, as a Sabathia fan, I didn’t like to see it.
A closer example is Manny when he was in Boston. There was nothing I hated more than the Red Sox in the 90’s. My best friend in high school was a gigantic Red Sox fan, and we would talk baseball nonstop. He will never let me forget the Pedro game and the 99 Division series. I hated that Manny left. I hated that he left for Boston. I cringed the first time I saw him at bat for the Red Sox. But by the time the first month of that 2001 season was over, I was cheering for Manny. He was hitting over .400 near the end of May, and I wanted him to hit .400 for the season.
Fans do cheer for people. We cheer for teams first, but that is not to say we never cheer for people at the same time. Cheering for CC as a Yankee and being an Indians fan is not mutually exclusive.
by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 15, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
When you rooted for Manny, you were rooting for the Red Sox. Every good thing Manny did helped the Red Sox.
When you rooted for C.C. late last year, you were rooting for the Brewers to have more success.
When you root for C.C. this year, you will be rooting for the Yankees to have more success.
One of these things is gross, one is no big deal, and one borders on unforgivable.
I’ll say it again: You do not know Sabathia as a person, only as a ballplayer, and he has no identity as a ballplayer now except that he is a Yankee.
he has no identity as a ballplayer now except that he is a Yankee.
That’s just self-imposed ignorance.
I’m not saying that there’s nothing to say about him except that he’s a Yankee. I’m only saying that he’s a Yankee 100% of the time that he’s a ballplayer (at this point), and he’s never NOT a Yankee.
I honestly will come to Rochester and shoot you.
by Jay on Feb 16, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You are wrong on a few levels here. But it basically comes down to the last sentence. I said a bit on this somewhere else on this thread. But I’ll try it another way: Do you have a favorite Indians player on the team? I like Jhonny, Victor, Shoppach, and Fausto. They aren’t necessarily the best players on the team, but they are the ones that I, as a fan, like the best. It has to do with them as ballplayers and as the people that we get to see as fans- their interviews, their actions on and around the field, their skill sets, etc. Sometimes its just something cool they did on the field and you were inspired (Fausto’s bug game). Sometimes its the little things they say in the media, or the media says about them (Victor’s leadership and Indians-ness). Sometimes its a skill set that you can fully understand and appreciate (Shoppach’s 3 true outcomes, Jhonny’s gap power). Sometimes its just the beauty of an act on the field (Griffey’s swing, Manny’s swing, Fausto’s sinker).
When I rooted for Manny it had nothing to do with the Red Sox. It had to do with appreciating and cheering for one of the greatest hitters I’ve ever seen. I had the same reaction when he was on the Dodgers, and would have if he were on any other team. I actually think I’d have the hardest time if he were on a division opponent not called the Royals. But ranking my dislike for our divisional rivals vs. the Red Sox vs. the Yankees is a different discussion.
If someone asks you if you like Manny, do you say, “I did from 93-2000, hated him from 20001-2008, and was indifferent towards him from 2008-present”..? Maybe you do. But please understand if some of us don’t share that approach.
I hadn’t thought about it like this. Now I’m depressed.
So 2009.
by Gradyforpresident on Feb 14, 2009 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
Related but not…does Randy Johnson go in as a Mariner or a Dback? I’m thinking Mariners, but his first stint in AZ was ridiculous.
I think it’s actually pretty clear-cut that he’ll go in as a Diamondback. By far the most unique thing in his career is the four straight Cy Youngs, which coincided with four straight strikeout titles, three ERA titles and a triple crown. If he pitches a full season this year, he’ll have very nearly as many starts with the Diamondbacks as well.
How about this scenario: C.C.‘s Yankees career starts off poorly (no surprise there), he is injured and pitches sporadically in 2009. He begins to break down , and by 2011 resembles (both physically and statistically) Livan Hernandez (version 2008). In subsequent seasons, he doesn’t pitch well for the Yankees, is regarded as another Kevin Brown type player (version 2004 and 2005) and doesn’t make it into the Hall of Fame. He is typically viewed as a fat bum, except to Indians fans (and various opponents in the AL Central), who remember him as one of the best pitchers seen in these parts for years.
So you want Cazzi Culone to help the Yankees get to the play-offs and then dominate in the WS – is that right. I sure hope I’m misreading you here.
I’ll root for CC to win every game he pitches, but the team loses every other game in the season.
I’m pretty sure that if the Yankees lose every game that CC doesn’t pitch then they won’t be anywhere near the playoffs.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 14, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
That’s not it. Every baseball fan of every baseball team should hope that every Yankee hitter gets shelled and every Yankee batter wears the collar.
The Yankee’s are a cancer – they need to be excised and destroyed. Any fan of baseball who doesn’t understand this has not been paying attention.
by mauichuck on Feb 14, 2009 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I was just responding to your quote. You said mj wanted CC to help the Yankees make the playoffs and he never said such a thing.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 14, 2009 11:52 PM EST up reply actions
I really had no attachment to CC. I loved his numbers and what they meant for the Indians, but I also loved the return in value we got from trading him.
I’d much rather he pitch for the Yankees than the Tigers or White Sox.
What about the fact that he’s a great player and would be in our division? Surely any non-Central team is preferable. Same thing as when you said we should root against the Rays in the WS last year.
I’m sorry, but the fact that one of our all-time greats is now signed to the Yankees, with such a long contract that he may eventually win more games as a Yankee than as an Indian, overrides the divisional concern.
Well, I don’t feel that way, and I’d venture my opinion is more pragmatic. You’re making an emotional statement.
Then make that clear, and realize that also means you can only speak about your personal emotions. You cannot state that someone rooting for C.C. makes them a fan of the Yankees team, as you have done in this thread.
There are many, many cases where an individual player can play well and the team can lose.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 9:47 PM EST up reply actions
This is foolishness. When C.C. plays well, it generally will help the Yankees. When it doesn’t, it will only be because of bad luck.
Even the act of C.C. having a quality start saves the Yankee bullpen from getting shredded.
There is no loophole here.
by Jay on Feb 15, 2009 9:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
So why not root for the bullpen to play even worse when they are used? You can make as many personal loopholes as you want. I daresay we would if we traded Sizemore to the Yankees (work with me here on the hyperbole). We’d root for him to play well every day expect against the Indians, but for the Yankees to still lose. Right?
(yes, the difference between traded and FA is what I mean to work with here)
So why not root for the bullpen to play even worse when they are used?
Because I am rooting for the bullpen to be insanely God-awful in every single game regardless.
More foolishness, more grasping for a loophole. Sabathia doing well is good for the Yankees. There is no more rational or correct statement in this whole thread.
You’re just declaring yourself to have the one true correct opinion on this emotional matter of opinion.
Sorry, Volt, this one part of the discussion is not an emotional matter. It’s pure logic and fact, and you are the one hiding behind rationalizations.
Every time C.C. even has a quick inning, he helps the Yankees, because the opposing pitcher has less time to rest, in addition to the actual run suppression.
You can’t hide from this. Rooting for C.C. means rooting for things to happen that favor the Yankees.
Yes. I know that. I want C.C. to do well, and the Yankees to do as badly as possible for that to happen. Who said I had to chose an extreme?
You are rooting for a freak accident. It’s like rooting for five straight home runs. It’s not really rooting, it’s just a loopy, dreamy whim.
But the reality is that if C.C. does well, it’s going to help the Yankees. Your rooting for something totally unrealistic will not change that, if and when it happens. And then you’ll say … what? “I’m glad that happened, because that’s what I was rooting for” ?
This is quite funny, Jay. You’re acting like this is the first time any fan has rooted for a player and against his team.
Does the fan want the team to prosper? No. Is it rational to root for a player and against a team? No. Is it possible to root irrationally? Obviously yes. Do we really want to get into a discussion about what is rational here? Very little about sports is rational.
This is sort of like falling in love. You can’t help it. You just do. The better idea is not to fall in love with a ballplayer in the first place, but then, why watch the game at all?
I don’t share Volt’s or others’ enthusiasm for Sabathia, but this does not shove them permanently into Yankee Fan Camp. Your absolutist position is silly.
by tabler84 on Feb 16, 2009 8:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I will grant you that there may be room for latitude here … but not when said team is the Yankees. Some others may argue that status for the Tigers, White Sox or Twins, but on the Yankees, every Indians fan who either knows the history OR understands the economics — let alone both — should agree on this point.
It’s irrational but understandable to have a certain fondness for a certain player, even if he isn’t on your team. We all have favorites around the majors and from our youth. What is irrational and not understandable is allowing fondness for a non-Indian to take precedence over rooting against the Yankees. I don’t accept the contradiction, I just don’t.
I’ll ask another way: Will you be rooting for him to pitch a perfect game? A no-hitter? Multiple no-hitters? If the Yankees reach the World Series, will you root for C.C. to pitch well there, too? If so …
Will you be rooting for him to pitch a perfect game?
That would be awesome.
A no-hitter? Multiple no-hitters?
That would be even more awesome.
If the Yankees reach the World Series, will you root for C.C. to pitch well there, too? If so …
No, I do have limits. I would root against him. But if he won his starts and the Yankees lost I would be cool with that.
"Less of an Indians fan" - Jay
Don’t know if this is directed to me, but let me say: I agree with you in most of this thread. I don’t feel any love for CC. I think your dissertation on why he’s a jackass was pure gold, and I forced my entire family and circle of friends to read it.
I just don’t think threads of this nature are much fun or productive, that’s all.
How’s this for an extreme-
I’m cheering for CC to go 0-30, with a 1.85 ERA and 300 Ks. I want the Yankees to go 0-162 and Hank Steinbrenner to fire Cashman and Girardi, cut CC because he is such a “loser” and eat the rest of salary.
by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 15, 2009 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
True, CC’s k-rate will never be that good.
by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 15, 2009 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
I still like CC and I always will. Just like I’ve always liked Manny and Thome and Lofton. Of course I won’t be rooting for the Yankees to win, but I want to see him pitch well there. And I agree that I’m very happy he’s not in the division, but I’d rather he was in the NL. I hope he does well enough that the idiotic NY media doesn’t treat him like they’ve treated A-Rod — no person deserves that.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 14, 2009 11:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Cazzi Culone is a money grubbing jack-ass and deserves whatever abuse the NY media can heap upon him. I just can’t wait until Bill Madden rips him a new one.
Bill Madden — the same idiot who wrote this terrible piece of journalism? Who cares what that moron thinks?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 14, 2009 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
If you’re at the business end of the guillotine it doesn’t make much difference if they’re wrong or right, ne c’est pas, mon amie?
And being pilloried by an idiot who makes about one thirtieth of what you do and having your head cut off are basically the same thing.
Huh, wha?
No, no that’s not it. What I’m saying is that being right or righteous has it’s irrelevancies. Pretty much a historical fact. And, oh by the way, making a lot of money doesn’t make you right or righteous either. Plenty of examples of that too.
Hey, you drew the analogy. Madden is an idiot. Anyone who takes him at face value is also an idiot. CC’s performance will be based on what he does, not what the cadre of the moronic thinks about him.
Dude, C.C. decided that the money was most important. He’ll get the money, but he deserves to get not one other thing in his baseball career. And I mean nothing.
by Jay on Feb 15, 2009 1:49 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah, and so did Manny and Thome and A-Rod and most baseball players. I know we’ve talked about this before, and I don’t really want to get it a long discussion about it again, but chastising a person because he signed a contract that gave him the most money is ridiculous. Most baseball players, and most people, would do the same thing. I know you can give me many examples of players that didn’t, and that’s fine, but that still doesn’t change the fact that the majority of players would sign the contract that benifits them the most financially, given the opportunity. Of course, many players don’t have that opportunity because they’re not as valuable as CC, but that doesn’t make them morally superior.
From all reports, the Yankees offered CC about 40% to 50% more than any other team offered. That’s a significant difference. Do you actually think that most players wouldn’t have done the same thing? Or that most fans, in that situation, wouldn’t have also done what CC did? Of course they would have. A person can hate CC as an Indians fan because he plays for the Yankees, and that’s fine, but if you’re claiming he’s a bad person because he signed with them then you’re not being objective
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It’s been better said before, but here is the way I look at it. Professional Baseball is a business and the most despicable company within that business is the Yankees. If someone working in the business chooses to work for that company soley for financial reasons, then I have no respect for that person.
Listen, I hate the Yankes as much as everybody else, but they’re not doing anything illegal or immoral. They have more many than any other team and so they spend it because that’s allowed by MLB. If you’re going to be mad at anybody, be mad at baseball for allowing that situation. If the Indians were making that kind of money I’m sure every single Indians fan would want Dolan to spend it.
Many people don’t like Wal-Mart, for various reasons that I don’t want to get in to here. I would say that’s an example of a company that’s hated by some people (I don’t know how many). So if I’m fresh out of business school and Wal-Mart wants me to be a manager and offers me a much larger salary than other business, am I a bad person for taking a job there? Would you lose all respect for me?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions
Wow — so everyone who works at Wal-Mart is a terrible person?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions
No, some are disadvantaged and exploited. Some are the exploiters – like your theoretical MBA – therefore despicable and terrible. QED
OK, so every person who works in management at Wal-Mart is a terrible person. Every single one of them is exploiting people.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions
Let me ask you, is Jake Westbrook a terrible person? He used to play for the Yankees, you know.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
He addressed this one earlier…once you stop wearing the Yankee stripes you aren’t hated anymore.
We should stop trying to figure out his logic.
But there’s a big difference between hating someone because he plays for another team and saying that player is a terrible person. I understand hating CC because he plays for the Yankees, but I don’t understand why all of a sudden he became a terrible person. Those are two completely different ideas.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
being a yankee ≠ terrible person
signing with the yankees as a FA = jackass
jackass ≠ terrible person
rooting for a yankee = rooting for the yankees
rooting for the yankess = terrible person
by Brick. on Feb 15, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Westbrook didn’t have a choice. And even had he had a choice — for example, had he been drafted by the Yankees and his only choices were to sign or sit out for a whole year at the start of his career — he wouldn’t have been making a money-driven choice as a person who was already worth over $100 million.
Brad … and anyone else taking this position … arguing this at LGT is about as rational as arguing that it’s cooler to root for the Red Sox than the Indians. Now you can drown every thread where this comes up with another 45 comments of Sabathia apologia, or you can just accept what obviously is the prevailing feeling among Indians fans — including quite a few reasonably reasonable Indians fans — that signing with the Yankees makes a player essentially dead to us, in fact worse than dead. I suggest that you just accept that that is the prevailing view, but only because there’s no new great insight that anyone is going to gain by debating this every two weeks.
Sabathia is a jackass.
I know this Jay. My only point, and I know I’ve said this earlier, is that I expect more from people here at LGT. I know we’re all Indians fans, but we can think rationally about the game, also. The “CC is a jackass because he took the most money” stuff is what I expect to read at cleveland.com; I expect more intelligent baseball discussion here. I expect people here to realize that most baseball players, in the same position, would take the offer worth about $50 million more than any other offer, and to make a judgement about CC because of this is ridiculous. And anyone who doesn’t realize this fact is naive.
I’m not saying anyone should be rooting for CC now that he’s with the Yankees. Believe me, it sickens me to see him wearing that uniform and I wish he was still in Cleveland. If he pitches terribly this year, and that causes the Yankees to miss the playoffs, I’ll be happy. I understand fully what it means to hate players from opposing teams. I hate every player from Michigan. So I have no problems with people hating CC because he’s a Yankee. But I don’t understand the notion that him signing there shows some character flaw or makes him a bad person.
But, as you said, it’s not worth discussing repeatedly so I won’t continue. If anyone thinks CC is somehow different than most ballplayers, they can continue believing that.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
To me it’s pretty simple. Cazzi Culone had two choices: a) he could do the smart thing and take the money b) He could do the right thing and sign elsewhere for less. He choose “a”. I have no respect nor admiration for people who chose the smart thing over the right thing. It’s really that simple.
You and I may agree that not signing with the Yankees would have been the “right thing”, but CC didn’t necessarily see it that way. What’s right to one person may not be right to someone else.
We, as fans, may hate the Yankees because of their huge payroll and annoying fans, but to players the Yankees are just another baseball team. I know we view them differently but I don’t think most players do. I think that’s the disconnect; I don’t think CC (or other players) see the Yankees as “hated” like we do. To them, they’re just another employer. I really don’t think players are thinking “I don’t want to sign with them because they have an unfair advantage over other teams and it wouldn’t be right to sign with them.” I could be wrong, but I don’t think players see it the same way we do as fans, which is why I’m not as hard on CC as some of you guys are.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
You guys are making him out to be an idiot now. It’s getting to be too much.
And didn’t we do a poll on this?
by supermarioelia on Feb 15, 2009 9:02 PM EST up reply actions
Huh? Who’s making him out to be an idiot?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
If you believe that CC doesn’t realize that the Yankees are hated, then yes, you’re making him out to be an idiot.
by supermarioelia on Feb 15, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
No, I’m not. Players have a different perspective on things than fans do. It would be silly to think that they view the Yankees, or any other team, the same way fans do.
I’m not saying the players don’t know about the Yankees’ huge payroll, because obviously they do, but that doesn’t mean they view the Yankees like fans of other teams do. When you hear every player talk about the mystique and aura of playing for the Yankees, I’m sure they’re not all lying.
I’m just saying, you cannot assume players have the same perspective as fans. I think that’s what too many people here are doing.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 10:05 PM EST up reply actions
Probably the best conversation on this player vs. fan thing is the ongoing discussion that Mike and Mike in the Morning have often.
by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 15, 2009 10:07 PM EST up reply actions
This is close to the heart of the problem here.
We are not expecting players to have the same perspective as fans. But you are expecting fans to have the perspective of players in deciding who to root for.
This makes no sense. We root for ballplayers as fans, not as colleagues. If I were in the baseball industry and knew these people personally, then I’m sure it would be different, but I’m not, and neither are you.
But you are expecting fans to have the perspective of players in deciding who to root for.
No, I’m not. I never said Indians fans should continue to root for CC with the Yankees. Hell, I never said that I was going to root for CC with the Yankees.
My entire point is that we should not make judgements about CC because he signed with the Yankees, as opposed to any other team. That is what Chuck and many others are doing. I’m saying that players don’t view the Yankees with the same hatred that we as fans do, so him signing with them does not make him a jackass. He’s the same guy he was here in Cleveland.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
When you hear every player talk about the mystique and aura of playing for the Yankees, I’m sure they’re not all lying.
The ones talking about the mystique are the ones playing there—a self-selected group.
Many, if not most ball players would prefer to play someplace other than NY. Again, look at Ed Whitson and Matt Kemp.
Brad, this is to me quite naive. Ball players view New York as just another club? They know what NY is. They play games in NY every year. They talk to former teammates. They know what it’s all about. Talk with a former ballplayer and ask him what he thought about playing in NY. Chances are he will shake his head and say a man has to be crazy to play there.
Chances are he will shake his head and say a man has to be crazy to play there.
Yet, people continue to sign contracts to play there.
I’m sure it’s crazy playing baseball in a lot of cities. New York is probably first on that list, but Boston cannot be far behind. Or Chicago. But I’m talking about how fans view the Yankees, as the “Evil Empire” to quote John Henry, not about how crazy it is to play there.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 10:02 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think CC (or other players) see the Yankees as "hated" like we do. To them, they’re just another employer.
I agree with you about C.C., because he signed there, but other players dislike the Yankees. Try Jason Varitek. Or someone on the Mets.
Of course Varitek plays with the Yankees’ main rival so he’s going to have a different view. That’s like asking an OSU player about Michigan.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 10:27 PM EST up reply actions
Sure, I’ll grant you that. But other players—nonrivals—don’t care for NY in general or the Yankees in particular.
I’m sure that’s the case with some players. And some players don’t like Cleveland (Ichiro, for example) or any other city/team.
Again, I’m not going to make judgements on how players feel because I don’t pretend to know. But I do know it’s not nearly the same as fans feel, and we shouldn’t assume that they do.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
The "CC is a jackass because he took the most money" stuff is what I expect to read at cleveland.com; I expect more intelligent baseball discussion here.
I think the level of discourse on C.C. is higher here than what we’d see on cleveland.com. The more commonly cited opinion there is that C.C. was right to take the money and the tightwads who run the team don’t care about winning, and if we only had an owner as committed to winning as the Steinbrenners, we’d be happy. Chuck’s view is way more nuanced than that, as is Jay’s.
My only point, and I know I’ve said this earlier, is that I expect more from people here at LGT.
Careful with those personal judgments. I could just as easily say that I “expect more” out of you than what appears to be deeply underdeveloped sense of loyalty and a disturbing lack of fondness for justice. There are all kinds of character inferences I could derive.
The state of being a sports fan is not rational. We may enjoy a lot of rational discussion, but for you to suggest that the topic of whether to root for a certain player ought to be a “rational” matter suggests strongly that you are simply not a very passionate fan of the Indians, or possibly of anything.
I think the thing that bothers me is the assumption of correctness that you and Chuck seem to have on this.
If I were trying to argue that Einar Diaz was better than Victor Martinez, you would call me wrong. You would probably call me an idiot. And you would be right to do so. But, if I said, I like Diaz more than Martinez, you would probably think it was odd. You may ask why, and you may say that you prefer Martinez. But, to call me wrong, or an idiot, would be silly. Once we are talking about our personal preferences as fans, you are right, it is not supposed to be rationale.
I don’t mind that some Indians fans want CC to fall down the stairs and break his arm. I think its a little extreme and maybe I think its a little unwarranted, but that’s fine. But its your tone and Chuck’s tone that is accusing those that don’t take that approach to somehow be a Yankees fan or less of an Indians fan. That is cleveland.com-ish.
by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 15, 2009 9:43 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
This.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
I agree with Chuck that it make you less of an Indians fan.
Sorry, but that’s really what I think.
You can all kinds of insulting things about that opinion, but to me, that’s just because you don’t get it. And to me, if you were more of an Indians fan, then you’d get it.
by Jay on Feb 15, 2009 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
Questioning the degrees of Indians fandom is taking things too far, Jay. You shouldn’t base the level of Indians fandom by the level of CC hatred.
As fans, we get attached to players who play for our team. That’s a simple, undeniable fact and you cannot deny it. Just because they leave for another team doesn’t mean we have to start hating them.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
I warned you about the character judgments. This is where it leads — and frankly, you started it.
Don’t lecture me about expecting more out of me. I’m a reasonably intelligent and educated person, but for some of us, loyalty and passion are also part of the human experience.
I’m a loyal Indians fan. I root for them with a passion.
If Sabathia faced the Tribe there is no way I’d root for him to do well. But if he faces the Red Sox, I think I can root for him and still sleep well at night.
We all love this team or else we wouldn’t be here on this web site.
Your level of devotion to the team is practically unmatched. You seem like a good guy and one that I think I would enjoy to meet in person.
But when you start insinuating that you are a better fan than I because I root for CC Sabathia to succeed, then I think it’s time to step down from the pedestal.
by mjschaefer on Feb 15, 2009 11:08 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How often do you plan on going out of your way to watch CC? Because for me, between 3 hours a day watching the Tribe, then probably another hour on LGT aside from game threads. I can’t see where I would have the time to watch Yankees games one of every five games.
I think you love him.
by supermarioelia on Feb 15, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
Once again, I fully get your opinion and I understand it. Your opinion of my Indians-fan-ness is not high on things I value. And, of course, I disagree with it. I would think that on LGT we could get past questioning how much we love the Indians. Because to try calling someone out on how much they like the Indians, especially those of us that have been around here for awhile, is a pretty low form of argument.
And besides all of that, Its your tone, more than your opinion, that is frustrating.
by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 15, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
Excuse me, I am not the one who started criticizing others’ intelligence and the quality of discourse here — comparing the site I co-moderate to the cleveland.com forums.
You and Brad are in no position to be critical of anyone’s tone in this thread. Man in the mirror, buddy.
I think you are revising the history of this thread pretty blatantly here. Instead of regretting posting something here, I’m going to privately message you.
by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 15, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions
DD made a pretty good point in his e-mail about revising the thread history.
- The discussion started in earnest when mjschaefer said he was still rooting for the Yankees.
- From there, I asked him how he’ll feel about C.C. going into the HOF in a NY cap, and he said he was fine with it.
- I then said there was something about being an Indians fan that he just doesn’t get.
- Chaos ensues.
In that respect, I did throw the first stone, and moreso than Chuck. In my defense, I was responding to the specific statement of mjschaefer — “I’d be cool with it” — “it” meaning C.C. in the HOF as a Yankee — and I do think he was making an extreme statement, much more extreme than simply saying, “I like the guy and I’m still rooting for him.” I didn’t question anyone else’s fandom or loyalty until after Chuck and I were compared to the morons at cleveland.com.
I see no purpose to the discussion going where it’s gone. It’s gone there before. But as long as I’m here, and as long as the economic deck remains stacked for the Yankees and against the Indians, there’s going to continue be a lot of bile here directed at the Yankees and against any former Indian with the temerity to sign with them.
You can start and prolong a pointless argument about it every single time it comes up if you must, but that particular rhetoric is a part of LGT — and it is a prevailing strand of Indians fandom — and regardless of whether you like or agree with it, that isn’t going to change. You are deluding yourself if you think these sentiments are reserved for fans who are dumb, hateful or unsophisticated. It ought to be clear to you by now that they are not.
The discussion started in earnest when mjschaefer said he was still rooting for the Yankees.
Sorry … I of course meant to say that he said he was still rooting for C.C.
I hope you can see by this slip … in my mind, they really are the same thing.
Jay, I wasn’t comparing you or anyone in particular to the morons at cleveland.com. My comment wasn’t directed at any single person, just that this discussion in general is what I would expect from people there. You know, probably more than any of us, about the economics of baseball, and free agents usually go to the highest bidder, especially the top guy on the market like CC. I understand how upset that makes us being Indians fans, but I was hoping we could step back from that fandom for a moment. I guess I was wrong about that. I apologize if my comments offended you because that was not the intent.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 16, 2009 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Jay, I wasn’t comparing you or anyone in particular to the morons at cleveland.com. My comment wasn’t directed at any single person, just that this discussion in general is what I would expect from people there.
I believe these two sentences contradict one another.
I could say: “It seems like some people are just cold-blooded, effete intellectuals who have never had any real passion for any team, endeavor or lover. Not that I’m referring to any one person in particular.” But that would be a cop-out. There’s only a few of us foolhardy enough to be in this discussion.
I’m sorry if you feel that way. I wasn’t even speaking of this discussion in particular, I was speaking of discussions that have occured on this site over the past couple months. I’ve been involved in many discussions about this topic with many people on here, not just you. That’s what I was referring to.
But if you think I’m less of an Indians fan than you are because I don’t hate CC then I guess I can’t do anything about it. I don’t measure my Indians fandom by what you believe, and I cannot believe you would be criticizing the passion of fans who spend hours on this blog talking about the Indians.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 16, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just trying to give equal time to the character judgments. Let me put it to you this way … I think my loyalty/passion criticism is every bit as valid as your cleveland.com comparison if not moreso. They are, in a way, the two sides of the coin of our disagreement.
I will say this: Nothing gives me more confidence in my position than that the “opposition” can’t seem to answer it without distorting it. To wit:
- It ain’t about C.C. making a lot of money.
- It ain’t about rooting for a player who isn’t an Indian.
- It ain’t about hating C.C.
- It ain’t about excoriating someone for taking the highest money offer.
It is about the notion that rooting for a New York Yankees player to do well, as a baseball player, while playing for the Yankees, under basically any circumstances, makes a person a less of an Indians fan. The rest of the discussion is just straw men and noise.
It is about the notion that rooting for a New York Yankees player to do well, as a baseball player, while playing for the Yankees, under basically any circumstances, makes a person a less of an Indians fan. The rest of the discussion is just straw men and noise.
rooting for a yankee = rooting for the yankees
rooting for the yankess = terrible person
It is about the notion that rooting for a New York Yankees player to do well, as a baseball player, while playing for the Yankees, under basically any circumstances, makes a person a less of an Indians fan.
Says you.
"Less of an Indians fan" - Jay
Yes, of course, says me. That’s why it says “by Jay” at the bottom of the Comment.
by Jay on Feb 17, 2009 1:52 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
But you’re stating it like it’s a fact, not an opinion. That’s why some people here don’t like the tone you’re using; you’re telling people that they’re not Indians fans, as if you get to decide who is and isn’t a fan and their level of fandom. These are just your opinions and, even though you’re the moderator of this site, that doesn’t make you right.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 17, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
I never said it made me right. Everything I state here is either a matter of fact or a matter of opinion. I think people are smart enough to know the difference. On matters of fact, people can figure out on their own whether I have made an error. On matters of opinion, everyone will make their own judgment as to how right and how wrong I am.
I think on most any subject, those who feel good about their own opinions won’t feel insecure about mine. Of course, that’s just my opinion.
You know, I’ve had many people judge me incorrectly on this site and make unwarrented criticisms of me (and I don’t mean that directed to you, Jay), I guess that comes with the territory. I have no idea why you think I have an underdeveloped sense of loyalty. Loyalty to what — to the Indians? Tell me one thing that I’ve said which was not loyal to the Indians. I didn’t know you had to pile on CC to demonstrate your Indians fandom.
And how do I have a “disturbing lack of fondness for justice”? What is justice — CC resigning with the Indians? CC signing anywhere but the Yankees? How is that justice. CC played hard for the Indians while he was under contract with them, and that’s all you can ask for as a fan. Once he reached free agency he was free to sign with any team in baseball. I don’t like that he signed with the Yankees, but what the hell does that have to do with “justice”?
And to imply that I’m not a fan of the Indians is simply ridiculous. I wouldn’t be on here talking about the team every day if I wasn’t. Everyone doesn’t have to agree with you to be a fan.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 9:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You are rooting for a Yankee.
That is disloyal to the Indians, and it suggests a disturbing lack of fondness for justice.
This all might just be an intellectual exercise for some people.
Jay, I have never once said I was going to root for CC with the Yankees. I said I can understand why some people would, but I never said that myself. The whole point I was trying to make in this thread is, again, that CC signing with the Yankees does not make him a terrible person or say anything derogatory about his character. I don’t like that he signed with the Yankees but I can understand why he did. There’s a big difference.
My question for you is this; if CC didn’t sign with the Yankees, if he signed with another team in the AL, would you still hate him so much? You seem to say rooting for CC hurts the Indians and I can agree with that, but what if he was playing for the Tigers or Angels or Red Sox? I thought you were saying he’s a jackass becase he signed with the Yankees, because they’re such a despicable team, and as I said above the players may not have that same view. As I’ve said many times, most players would have done the same thing CC did in that situation, so I don’t think any less of him for doing it.
If you hate him only because he doesn’t play for the Indians then I can certainly understand that. So if he signed with another team besides the Yankees, would you still like him, just a little, or would you hate him as much as you do now?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t hate him as a person, but in terms of his public persona as a pro ballplayer, he can go piss up a rope. All we know about these guys is their public persona as ballplayers, and in terms of that aspect of him, he’s a jackass.
You don’t know Sabathia in any other aspect. It’s all you = fan and him = ballplayer. That is your whole relationship. Anything else is a figment of your imagination.
Now, I could say, Yankees = complete jackass. If he signs with another AL team and money is blatantly the key factor, maybe he’s just a garden-variety jackass. If he signs with another AL team with no grotesque financial motivation, well, then, I just wouldn’t like him very much. That’s how I felt about Manny at the time. If he were in the NL, I would wish him well.
Let me give you a hypothetical. Let’s say the Indians offered 120M, the Brewers offered 120M, the A’s offered 120M, the Yankees offered 125M. Sabathia signs with the Yankees, and he says, “Why should I leave five million on the table? The Yankees made the highest offer.” Now, Brad, even you might agree at that point that that shows a grotesque interest in getting the very last dollar.
Which brings up the Winston Churchill story. He says to a distinguished woman of society, “Would you go to bed with me for 100,000 pounds?” And she says, “You know, I think I would.” And he says, “Well, how about for 100 pounds?” And she says, “What kind of woman do you take me for?” And he says, “We’ve already established that, now we’re just haggling.”
We’ve established that C.C. is a jackass. You think you have an argument, but really, you’re just haggling.
I never said, nor suggested, that I knew CC in any other way than being a fan. I don’t know why you would say that.
Are you really going to suggest that there is no difference between $50 million and $5 million? Many players have given up $5 million to play with their current team, or close to home, or wherever (the so-called “hometown discount”), but I don’t think I’ve heard of players taking $50 million for that. So, yes, there is a big difference.
My whole point was that I said CC wasn’t a jackass just because he signed with the Yankees, and Indians fans can still like him as a player just like they like Manny or Omar or whoever after they left Cleveland. Then you took that to mean Indians fans are “rooting” for CC, which would hurt the Indians and questioned the fandom of me and others (even though I never said anything about rooting for CC). So that why I wanted to know what you would think if he signed with another AL team, because his playing well would still hurt the Indians. You said you still wouldn’t like him, but you wouldn’t hate him as much. So does that mean you’d be less of an Indians fan, if you kinda liked a player on another AL team?
Here’s the thing: most players, if they were the top FA on the market and recieved an offer of $50 million more than any other team, would have taken that offer. You can give many examples of players who signed for lower money with a certain team, but the difference wasn’t nearly as huge. So I don’t think there’s anything especially different about CC. As a fan, I realize this is the case and deal with it. I don’t like CC playing with the Yankees, and I won’t be rooting for him there, but he will always have fond memories in my heart from his Cleveland days. And him playing with NY now doesn’t change those memories.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 11:00 PM EST up reply actions
I never said, nor suggested, that I knew CC in any other way than being a fan. I don’t know why you would say that.
I say that because you think you “still like” him. You don’t like him. You don’t even know him. You liked him as a ballplayer, and as a ballplayer, he’s now a Yankee. Ergo, any sense that you have of “still liking him” is, in essence, either (a) a fallacy that presupposes that you know anything about him other than his ballplayer persona, or (b) tantamount to rooting for the Yankees.
If you’re rooting for the person, it’s a fallacy, because you don’t know the person. If you’re rooting for the ballplayer, you’re rooting for a Yankee. That is my point.
but I don’t think I’ve heard of players taking $50 million for that. So, yes, there is a big difference.
Plenty of starting pitchers have left $50 million on the table in just the last two or three years, let alone other players and other years. We’ve discussed them at length — Zambrano, Oswalt, Halladay, Peavy. It’s not unusual at all. You apparently have been blocking this information out.
Of course I don’t know CC personally, but saying I “like” him means I like him as an athlete. I don’t think that correlates to rooting for his team. There are many players on other teams that I like and want to do well, for one reason or another, as long as it doesn’t hurt the Indians. I’ve always liked A-Rod because he’s such a great player and is treated unfairly by the media. I hated when he was traded to the Yankees, but I still want him to do well, mostly because of the way he’s percieved by the NY media is so unjust. I’ve always like Pujols because he seems like a class act and is a great player who’s also underappreciated, by fans and media alike. And I still have a fondness for former Indians, like Thome and Lofton and Vizquel. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that.
Let me ask you, Jay. You’re obviously a fan of baseball. There isn’t any player on another team that you admire and want to do well, as long as it doesn’t affect the Indians? There aren’t any former Indians who you still follow after they left and want to see them do well? I cannot believe that.
I’ve never heard anyone say that liking a player on another team is the same as rooting for that team, and it makes you less of a fan of your own team. I think you’re taking things too far there.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 16, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
OK, so if it was any other team but the Yankees, then you wouldn’t feel the same way?
But that contradicts all the other points you made. You said we can’t like CC because him doing well hurts the Indians and that makes us less of an Indians fan. But if CC were on the Angels or Red Sox or Twins or Tigers, then him doing well would also hurt the Indians (in some cases even more than with the Yankees). So does it make us less of an Indians fan to like CC if he were on the Angels? If not, then everything you argued earlier was just bullcrap. It wasn’t about CC playing well hurting the Indians, it was about CC playing well for the Yankees and your obsessive hatred of them.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 16, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
My hatred of the Yankees is rooted in my knowledge of the game and devotion to the Indians, and only in those things. You frankly should aspire to my hatred of the Yankees.
I already explained in this thread that there are degrees of disgust for different places an Indian could end up. I am quite sure that if the Indians found themselves locked in a specific race with any team that had C.C., everyone here would be rooting for C.C. to fail in every start. And if C.C. has a stellar season with a performance that directly helps to knock the Indians out of the playoffs — as the Yankees did in 2005 — then not one of you apologists is going to be happy about it.
I am quite sure that if the Indians found themselves locked in a specific race with any team that had C.C., everyone here would be rooting for C.C. to fail in every start. And if C.C. has a stellar season with a performance that directly helps to knock the Indians out of the playoffs — as the Yankees did in 2005 — then not one of you apologists is going to be happy about it.
Talk about straw men. No-one has said anything different.
"Less of an Indians fan" - Jay
No, actually, the most any apologist has conceded is that you wouldn’t root for C.C. to help the Yankees win the World Series. Based on what you’ve actually written, if we were locked in a tight race with the Yankees, you’d still be blithely rooting for C.C. to do well while hoping the Yankees magically would lose anyway. I wrote the above because I simply don’t believe you would really feel that way if it happened, but that’s not what you’ve written.
You frankly should aspire to my hatred of the Yankees.
I like that line.
I know fantasy sports is sort of a taboo topic here, but: anybody who plays fantasy sports does this kind of “conditional rooting” all the time. If you’re going to be competitive at fantasy sports, you have to be willing to own players whose teams you dislike. So to me, it’s not unusual to cheer for an individual but hope his team still does poorly.
It’s harder to do this with starting pitchers than with hitters, though, since they have a greater effect on individual games. To me it comes down to that, more so than what team the guy plays for. Like Jay said, you’re going “beyond a real rooting interest” in hoping that C.C. does well but that the Yankees still lose.
by cleveland teamer on Feb 17, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
I play fantasy sports in such a way that I do not have to own any Yankees, Ravens or Lakers. I relaxed that rule once while playing in an AL-only league but I didn’t like it.
I’d rather lose the money than root for a Yankee or Raven to do well for fantasy purposes. I value my eternal soul way too highly for that.
by woodsmeister on Feb 17, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions
i’m the same way. won’t use yankees, red sox, tigers, or white sox.
So 2009.
by Gradyforpresident on Feb 17, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
I hadn’t thought about your point about a starting pitcher, but I think I agree with it.
The larger point — the reason I’m so intolerant on this subject — is the financial difference, moreso than anything else (the history, the obnoxiousness of the fans, etc.). This probably deserves a whole article, but the basic reality here is that the Yankees are spotted a $150 million advantage over the Indians every single year — at least — and that is net of revenue sharing, that’s the real payroll advantage. The gross revenue advantage might exceed $250 million.
Going with the $4.8 million estimate of the cost of a marginal win, that means that the Yankees start every season with a 31-win advantage over the Indians. Think about that, 31 wins. And that is assuming that their quality of management is average, which I believe it is. Now of course, the Yankees have to pay “the Yankee tax” on every contract, assuming additional risk and just plain paying higher salaries. But even if we adjust their marginal win cost up to $8 million, they still end up with an 18-win advantage over the Indians.
How any devoted Indians fan can grasp this and root for a Yankee — any Yankee — to play well is utterly beyond me. We have no margin — none — in our quest to make the playoffs, a quest in which the Yankees will sometimes compete with us directly. Whether C.C. has a good season or not could approach an eight-win swing for the Yankees, which often will be the difference. If he has a great year, they have a 95% chance to make the playoffs; if he has a bad year, maybe it’s a 45% chance.
That is the reality of the situation. Maybe some people have not allowed themselves to absorb that. With an 18-win disadvantage out of the gate, no AL small-market hopeful has the luxury of C.C. having a good season on top of that. I know some of you like the guy, appreciate him as a player — whatever.
My advice to you, if you really love the Indians: Get over it.
by Jay on Feb 17, 2009 7:10 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Also, with those pitchers you mentioned, they signed extensions with their team while still under contract. They weren’t free agents like CC was. So it’s really not a fair comparison because they weren’t in the same situation.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 16, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions
C.C. had every opportunity to sign an extension while still under contract, and in fact it would have been to his advantage in terms of reducing risk to do so rather than wait until free agency. He spurned offers and proactively cut off negotiations with the Indians at the start of spring training last year. They are the EXACT same situation, except that C.C. chose to go for the most amount of money possible where the others didn’t.
Point in fact, contrary to public opinion the majority of top players in C.C.‘s situation do come to terms with their current team on a long-term extension, which is the reason why the free agent market has been so terrible this decade, with this year arguably the exception. C.C. is not typical. If he were typical, he’d have signed a nice extension with the Indians a year ago.
Well said. My thoughts exactly.
For someone who was claiming that proximity to family in CA was important (at least that was reported in the media), he sold out for the money. As for the NYY premium he got – CC went from being outrageously paid, to insanely paid. The incremental “value” of the NYY premium is pretty small when compared to the “costs” of playing in New York and the pressure it puts on him and his family… unless his goal was to be the highest paid pitcher. At no time did he give that indication.
At this point, I could care less how he does on the field as a person, but now that he is a Yankee, let him blow a knee and retire early to count his money. He earned the money and the security it gives him. Good for him.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
Who said that playing baseball for money represents selling out? I hope you are not twisting my words around. CC had the ability to choose any team to play for in baseball and make more money than he would ever need. He chose the Yankees. ’Nuff said! He has that right, and I have the right to hope he blows chunks.
Maybe you make millions of dollars to understand the difference between $100 million and $160 million. If so, please enlighten the rest of us po’ folk. From my POV, once you get past $10 million, you’re just playing with Monopoly money. But again, how am I to know what it is like to turn down an additional $50 million or so when one has $100 million in his pocket?
**I claim the right to amend my assessment of CC if he takes all those millions and directs them to the social programs he speaks about. Until then, he has a lot to live up to in my mind – and unless he shows that he is using this excess money for other purposes besides lining his pockets, then this would qualify as selling out.
Yankees and Red Sox - MLB's Axis of Evil
(And ESPN is right in the middle)
I really don’t like it when people judge how much is “enough money” for someone else. $50 million is a hell of a lot of money — how can you act like that’s nothin. And it’s not like he’s a billiionaire or something; he’s rich but not that rich. Maybe he wants to be able to take care of everyone of his grandkids and great-grandkids. Maybe he has more charities he wants to support. Or maybe he just wants to blow it all; that’s his priority.
I’m not rich and will never be even close to being rich. I didn’t become a teacher because I care about having lots of money. But I’m not one who is bothered by other people who are making a lot of money. I think a lot of the hatred that fans have about pro athletes making huge sums of money is jealousy (not you specifically, Spidey). They don’t think it’s fair that athletes get paid so much to play a game, which may certainly be true but that’s life and it ain’t gonna change.
Here’s another way of looking at it — Steinbrenner’s making the money whether he gives it to CC or keeps it for himself. Who would you rather have it? That’s one point I’ve heard Neyer and other writers mention often; fans get upset with how much money athletes make but never talk about how much the owners are making, when the owners are the really, really rich ones. The athletes are the ones doing the work so it’s ony fair for them to be making most of the money. Anything that limits players’ salaries will just increase the owners’ profits.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 8:24 PM EST up reply actions
This has become the deadest of dead LGT topics.
by supermarioelia on Feb 15, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t think so — I don’t remember seeing anyone make the points that I made in my last paragraph. If I’m wrong, then I apologize. But fans need to realize someone’s going to making the money anyways, it’s either the player or the owner, so it might as well be the player.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Dead in the sense that I have no interest in reading any of this, but I still have to click new just in case I miss anything funny and/or important. If anything funny happens in this thread, can someone post it in the Jaysie thread? Many thanks.
by supermarioelia on Feb 15, 2009 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This strikes me as silly. If Steinbrenner couldn’t spend his money on Sabathia, he’d spend it on Ben Sheets or something.
I have no problem with ballplayers making a lot of money. Fewer people complain about chief executives making insane amounts of money, or Hollywood stars.
I’ve disagreed with others here and I thought Sabathia signed with the Yakees because he was under an immoderate amount of pressure from the MLBPA. But that doesn’t forgive his signing with the Yankees.
Yeah, but Sheets wouldn’t have recieved near as much as CC, so Steinbrenner would have kept the difference. As Jay said, the Yankees were going to get CC no matter how much it took.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 15, 2009 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
I really kinda disliked CC in 05 and 06 when he refused to put things together. I remember being in a parking lot (K-mart i think) and him giving up like 10 runs in an inning while i was in the car listening. Wanted to strangle him.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
I remember those games well. High pitch counts, lots of sweating on the mound. He might look really sharp for four innings, then something weird would happen (a swinging bunt, say) and he would unravel. Eventually he would leave the mound yelling into his glove.
I guess this all upsets me so much just because I knew the guy. I was on a first name basis with him after going to Winter Haven for so many years. He introduced me to Peter Gammons the day he did the ESPN Sunday Conversation prior to the start of his rookie year. So I always loved CC, but to see him wearing Yankees garb makes me wanna puke and act like Chris Parnell in Anchorman when he cries and tells Burgandy he was his hero, then ask “How could you do this, it’s poop Ron, poop.”
I have no idea where to even start with this.
by supermarioelia on Feb 15, 2009 9:16 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
What do you mean you don’t know where to start with this? I knew the guy as a ballplayer, he knew me as a fan. He recognized me and called me by name every year in the spring. I watched him grow up before making his debut. When I went to games at the Jake and in Cincy I would go down towards the dugout and he knew who I was, called my name out and chatted with me before games. The same went for Ben Broussard and a few other guys. All I was saying was that while all this was happening I was still younger, junior high-high school, so I was growing up with him. I looked up to the guy, respected him, loved the way he loved the Indians, etc. So seeing him actually wearing a Yankee uniform rips my heart out. I mean I know he’s a darn good guy, if he wasn’t he would have been like a young Russell Branyan who ignored his fans, but I just feel betrayed I guess. It’s going to be tough. It’s almost like a moral issue. Do I root for the guy who introduced me to Peter Gammons and that I shared so many casual conversations with even though he plays for the most evil team in sports? Or do I disown him for they way he went where the money is? It’s tough, I mean I know the Indians traded him away and all but I feel like he chose a place where the fans will turn on you in a second and don’t really care about who you are as a person, whereas a place like Cleveland takes that into account in their superstars. People knew Albert Belle was a jackass so towards the end of the run it didn’t matter how good he was, the fans weren’t exactly on his side. Even when CC wasn’t pitching well, the people still loved him because he was such a likable guy.
Just my 2 cents….he’ll be missed, but I’m still deciding how much as well as how I will approach rooting for him. I figure these questions will be decided on Opening Day when I see him pitch against the Indians in that new ballpark every other team in baseball paid for.
by Tribe_Hippie on Feb 18, 2009 2:17 AM EST up reply actions
Ladies and gentlemen, Johnny Popular!
by supermarioelia on Feb 18, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions
Are you trying to pick and internet fight with me? I don’t get your angle here. All I am saying is that it sucks because I knew the guy and had held casual conversations with him. I am in no way bragging myself up. I am simply stating how I feel towards the situation and why it’s difficult to figure out what i do from here as he was my favorite Indian on and off the field.
Why are you mocking me? I really don’t get it. It’s not as though I am saying I am better than anyone for talking to him in person for those years or having him notice me at the ballpark, I’m sure I was one of many people that this happened to with CC, I’m not special for it I know that.
by Tribe_Hippie on Feb 18, 2009 9:44 PM EST up reply actions
If, God forbid, CC manages to beat the Indians, I think a lot of this old sentiment is going to die out. Go Tribe.
CC rolled the dice and won.
It seems wierd (and slightly irrational) to me that a person would laud an organization for letting go a fan favorite for logical/selfish reasons … but then skewer an individual when he does the same.
When a player is a free agent, he is no longer part of an organization. He is part of the players union, he is a partner with his agent. Their best interest is for the most money possible.
As a disclaimer, I’m not a lifelong Tribe fan. So, if there is some huge well of resentment for the Yankees from pre-expansion days, I can understand it. But I just don’t share it. I think there is plenty of reason to hate the Yankees based on their team makeup alone .. not just because of the pinstripes they wear or the money they spend.
i think the real question is: will he still tilt his cap?
So 2009.
by Gradyforpresident on Feb 19, 2009 3:35 AM EST reply actions
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