Who is Nick Weglarz?
Pretty sure Paul Hoynes doesn't know. Doesn't even mention the walk rate.
I realize that we pick on Hoynes quite a bit, but there's a reason: It seems that there are still a lot of Tribe fans who read this piece to regularly get "answers" to questions about the team. So as long as he's doing damage, he deserves the scrutiny.
(And I love how he completely ignores the second question, taking it instead as an opportunity to whine about the Tribe's supposed stupidity).
over 3 years ago
tabler84
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At first I thought this going to be an Atlas Shrugged reference.
by KevinV on Feb 8, 2009 9:55 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
come on, at least hoynes acknowledged this much:
Hey, Nick: You’re asking the wrong guy.
by macasson on Feb 8, 2009 10:05 AM EST reply actions 3 recs
what amazes me is that these people are capable of getting to the cleveland.com site and submitting their question, but they can’t just type “nick weglarz” into google and find one of the five thousand write-ups that exist on the guy.
to me, it seems like hoynes has a murray chass-like pride in being one of the ‘old guard’ baseball writers who have no use for anything beyond BA/HR/RBI, but also seems to intentionally dumb down his columns because he fears scaring his audience away with new or complex information. maybe that’s a legitimate fear—the people who depend on hoynes for their tribe information really might get turned off by a more modern approach to player analysis.
actually, i think hoynes’ biggest problem is that he’s just lazy. . . he writes like one thing a week, while castro always beats him to breaking news.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Feb 8, 2009 10:05 AM EST reply actions
Somebody had to pen and paper in the question about Jeff Kent. Who would write to columnist to figure out how many games Jeff Kent played with Cleveland?
Maybe someone who is still trying to figure out the analog to digital tv conversion?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Feb 8, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions
Hello Andrew,
As Cap’n mentioned above, it surprises me in this day and age that people can’t just use Google and the other search engines and type in a relevant query to find out the answers they want to know. I know it takes a little bit of work (there is typing involved, granted), but that’s why the old saying goes, “No Pain, No Gain.” :-)
Seriously, I think they just want to get posted on the Cleveland.com site and brag to their friends – “Hey, I wrote in a question to Paul Hoynes and he answered it.” Plus, perhaps they feel the only way Paul will answer it is if it is an “easy” question (such as asking a question they could easily find on Google or another search engine). If they ask too “difficult” a question, he might not answer it. :-)
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Well, I waded into the cleveland.com swamp for the first time in the comments section. This is a little experiment to see if I get flamed.
I enjoyed it and am interested to see if any return volleys are fired.
by The DiaTriber on Feb 8, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know. Peripherals is a pretty darn big word for the readers to get past. They’ll be too busy scratching their heads to be angry.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Feb 8, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
Good job with your post. We’ll have to see what other commentors think of it. You certainly told them more about Weglarz than Hoynes did.
I wonder if it’s a requirement that every Hey Hoynsie! include a question about Omar.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
Hey Hoynsie from the future:
Q: Why didn’t the Tribe go after Omar? I know he’s eligible for Social Security and the last stroke has him in a wheelchair and blind in one eye, but don’t you think his clubhouse presence would light a fire under Grady Sizemore, Jr.?
A: grumble grumble grumble.
by FredOx on Feb 9, 2009 9:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
As if Grady Sizemore Jr. would need a fire lit under him. Ppfff.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 9, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly. Future readers are just as dumb! Ha! Stupid future people.
by Voltaire on Feb 9, 2009 11:53 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Hey Hoynsie19: When are those cheapstakes going to fire that idiot Wedge? He’s like a hundred years old?—Joe P., Solon
Hey Joe: Fire him? He has a CX4 rating of +34.6, and a XVORPa coefficient of 9.
This is funny, but not in the way that you intend. It’s funny because you still don’t understand the complaint about Hoynes.
by tabler84 on Feb 9, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
How about a Hoynsie “Missive from the Future”? Andrew, we’re looking at you. Gotta step it up now that you’re in the big chair.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
Hey Hoynsie2019,
Why doesn’t Antonetti look into signing Jhonny Peralta to a 1-year deal? Bringing him back might get this young team to play with the same spark that the back-to-back champions from a decade ago played with. By the way, love your blog!
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on Feb 9, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Hey, Jakesie: How long was Jeff Kent a member of the Tribe? I think it was part of one season. Why didn’t the Indians keep him? — John Collise, Walton Hills
Hey, John: Ya know what I did to find the answer to your question? I typed his name into a publicly accessible search engine and clicked on one of the many Jeff Kent player profiles. Now, unless you’re of the same demographics of people who don’t know their TVs are going to stop working soon, I think you can find your answer yourself.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
he (Lee) won’t win a Cy Young again
I dunno. There’s only 14 guys who’ve won the award more than once. Some of those guys are sure-fire HoFers – except Clemens of course. Lee might get to the HoF if he buys a ticket, but I wouldn’t bet against him winning another CY. It’s a suckers bet but I’ll make it.
So Evan you give the polloi some real meat and they ignore you – except for that last guy. So whattya think Hoynies editors think? Here’s my guess: keep it simple and easy to digest – don’t wanna confuse the masses
As an aside, it’s probably no different than your producers. Read the bit on the Rochester City Council budget meeting quick to get to the sports segment on time, so Joe Six-Pack won’t change the channel. After all, he’s only watching the 11 O’Clock News to get the Red Wings’ score.
I’ve been told pretty reliably that the editors have seen at least one edition of Hey Jaysie. I doubt they read the comments on their own site, if only because they probably tried reading them a year ago and realized they might as well skip it. Also, they’re more busy trying to figure out how they’re not going to go bankrupt.
by Jay on Feb 8, 2009 6:26 PM EST up reply actions
No, they do make money off the printed paper, but the profit margins are getting slimmer every year.
by PatBordersHelmet on Feb 8, 2009 6:37 PM EST up reply actions
They just recently laid off a bunch of workers only about a month ago (right around Christmas) I believe, so they presumably are hurting (supposedly because most people get their news off the Web and less from taking newspaper subscriptions).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Yup. They are definitely hurting, but they are still turning a profit. Initially newspapers didn’t mind a very slim profit (1-5 back in the 19th & early 20th century.) By the 1990s the acceptable profit margin was 20% or better. Now that subscriptions, ad rates and classified sales have all fallen drastically the accountants have to find a way to maintain double-digit profit. Naturally that has to come from the editorial department because no one can quantify how much money and investigative reporter makes the paper anyway—all they see is the expense report and the occasional award plaque.
Readers are the first take note of the decrease in quality of the the paper coupled with the fact in info is available on line for free and the whole vicious cycle continues.
Eventually, news organizations that can handle a 1% profit and run more like traditional papers—but are going to be web based—will begin to fill the void of quality journalism that we are entering. Don’t worry though, sports and entertainment will not fall into that void so Hoynes will likely be around until he decides to pack it in.
by PatBordersHelmet on Feb 9, 2009 9:20 AM EST up reply actions
Oops, second line of first graph should read “1-5%”.
by PatBordersHelmet on Feb 9, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions
Is it possible they’re making money because people can’t afford internet access?
by Jay on Feb 8, 2009 6:57 PM EST up reply actions
So Hoynes’s function is to look stuff up on the internet for the readers? Isn’t that what interns are for?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Feb 8, 2009 7:01 PM EST up reply actions
Just because an intern can do it doesn’t necessarily mean that Hoynes isn’t capable of it.
by Jay on Feb 8, 2009 7:18 PM EST up reply actions
True. Of course, we are not at all sure that an intern didn’t actually do this FOR Hoynes.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Feb 8, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions
for the price of a months worth of newspapers, you could get a months worth of cheap dialup, right? maybe?…
this is an interesting theory, though.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
orrrrrr maybe not. i was wrong in assuming everyone has a computer already bought.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Not everyone is as lucky as this guy.
by cleveland teamer on Feb 8, 2009 9:26 PM EST up reply actions
Flag for not making that smaller. But hey, I learned something new!
by cleveland teamer on Feb 8, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
I really hope Dick Halloran becomes a recurring theme this season
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 8, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions
I just remembered that that’s the Scatman Crothers character in the Shining (Dick, not Richard)
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 6:23 PM EST up reply actions
Jake, Jake, Jake, I dunno what it’s like back on Planet Earth, but out here on the islands I can get Time-Warner cable, unlimited phone service and high-speed access for $99.95 a month. How can you not afford Internet?
It is much more difficult for people living in rural areas to get internet. It’s either dial-up, which is extremely slow, or satellite internet, which is much more expensive than your Time Warner connection. Not to get political, but that’s why I like the President’s plan to get broadband access to everyone. It’s not right that so many people in this country don’t have access to reasonably fast internet in this day of technology.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
At lot of people used to not have TVs. Sadly, there was no government program in place to buy them for them.
Signature to be named later.
I feel like the internet is a much greater tool than television ever was
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 9, 2009 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
And it has begot much greater tools, or at least more of them.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Well played, though it is debatable. TV has produced some colossal tools over the ages.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
Like Joe Buck.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 4 recs
rec.
Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax...
by ganatz on Feb 9, 2009 4:40 PM EST up reply actions
Who said anything about the government buying internet for people? I’m talking about making it accessible for people in rural areas who cannot currently get broadband internet. They’d still have to pay for it themselves, but at least they’d have the option to do that if they wanted to.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 9, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
So Hoynes doesn’t go beyond baseball card numbers to talk about Weglarz’s walk rate. That is kind of dumb, but hardly a hanging offense. The rest of the answer is accurate: it doesn’t matter where Michael Brantley falls on the ESPN prospect list. The only list that matters is the Indians’. Hoynes must receive hundreds of idiotic questions each week. Go read 20 comments on cleveland.com to get a sense of what level of discourse we’re talking about.
That’s probably not necessarily true. More likely they’re the most asked questions, or the ones they think the most people care about.
Who the hell knows what those stunods are thinkin’? It’s like trying to imagine what’s in Manny’s head while he’s playin’ left field.
He’s rockin’ the iPod … karma karma karma karma karma chameleon …
by Jay on Feb 8, 2009 6:59 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
The beat writers and columnists like Hoynes are in part responsible for the stupidity of their readers.
by Jay on Feb 8, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions 3 recs
Yep. Odradek, it would be a wonderful sports world in which to live if fans appreciated things like Weglarz’s walk rate, performance relative to age, etc. They would have a better understanding of how the game works, and they would stop cluttering their brains with crap like Around the Horn. So, is it a hangable offense that Hoynes doesn’t understand Weglarz’s value and potential? Of course not, if you want to hyperbolize. But it is emblematic of a significant and consistent problem in the sports press, and that problem is trotted out for all to see on a daily basis at the Plain Dealer.
by tabler84 on Feb 8, 2009 7:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess I read his answer somewhat differently. He didn’t mention walk rate or age, but he did point out his playing on the Canadian national team, so I don’t see how he “doesn’t understand Weglarz’s value and potential.” Maybe he doesn’t, but I can’t discern that from his response.
I don’t relish always coming to the defense of Hoynes, but I don’t think he gets a fair trial here. If Hoynes wrote like Nate Silver, he would be out of a job. We can afford to be smart and obscure online, because the majority of readers—i.e., a market—don’t bother with such discussions. This is like saying TV shows aren’t like Shakespeare,
He also didn’t mention most of what accurately describes Weglarz’s value and potential. The age factors, walk rate, etc. have a lot more to do with his value than playing for the Canadian National team. Stubby Clapp is a mainstay on the Canadian team.
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 8, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions
Stubby Clapp’s career walk rate in the minors was 13.8%. Hoynes just understands the predictive power of the Canadian national team.
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 8, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You’re right. I should have done my research.
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 8, 2009 10:34 PM EST up reply actions
+1 – the age factor, BB rate, K rate, OPS, level of Minor League ball, etc. mean much more to his value and worth to the Indians than whether he makes the Canadian National Team or not.
Heck, if you make the WBC teams, does that automatically mean that you are the most prized prospects in your team’s organizations? No, since many of the most prized prospects are not playing in the WBC, so again, just making a National or WBC team does not prove value and worth to an organization.
“Stats are your friend.” :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
And I’m pretty sure he’s a total lock for the Canadian team, but Hoynes doesn’t know that and can’t be bothered to research and figure it out.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 2:17 AM EST up reply actions
When someone wants to know about an individual player, it seems strange to point out entirely insignificant details while you omit the relevant stuff. That is, unless you don’t know the difference. If your friend had never watched baseball and wanted to know who Alex Rodriguez was, you wouldn’t say, “He’s right-handed, collects older women, and was the Big Boggle champion of his high school.”
And what is “obscure” about the baseball skills we value? You think OBP is obscure? Performance relative to age? Those things are not “obscure;” they’re simply not discussed very often because the majority of writers don’t understand their importance.
by tabler84 on Feb 8, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sure, he would have been a lot better off just saying, “Weglarz looks like a pretty good player.” And, sure, maybe he can explain why OBP is more important than BA. But he did point out to our benighted reader that ESPN’s prospect list doesn’t matter much.
No, not the dreaded man of straw again! I’m just saying that by newspaper standards this doesn’t rise to the level of high crime. I looked at his answer as one part vapid and one part astute. You seem to ignore the astute part.
I’m not ignoring that part. In my cleveland.com response I made clear the responses with which I agreed. It would be utterly staggering if I could not find one worthwhile thing out of a dozen or so responses. The man is paid to write about baseball.
You did say when you felt Hoynes was right. But in the so-called Weglarz comment, your lead sentence is:
Our friend Hoynsie is missing the point entirely with Weglarz.
Weglarz figures in the final two paragraphs of Hoynes’ response. The first three paras—about prospect lists—is enlightened, at least relatively so. And pedagogical in a nice way.
By the way, I didn’t even mention Hoynes’ description of Wes Hodges’ 2008 season as “great.” If that was a “great” year, well, we’re getting pretty darn loose in employment of that term.
This is probably why not many of us value Hoynes’ opinion and analysis like we do Plutos’, or bloggers such as Lastoria, or our own Ryan and Jay.
I’m not sure anyone who really follows the Indians’ farm system would label Hodges’ year as great. Solid, perhaps, though the report that his 3B defense is declining or in doubt puts a damper on any stats he did put up in 2008, since it’s likely 1B will be in his future sooner rather than later, and being that we already have a logjam of 1B in the pipeline at his level or right behind him, that just makes Hodges’ 2008 season that much less than “great.”
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Tony doesn’t strike me as a guy who’s looking to give a hard-nosed analysis, i.e., here’s the good news, and here’s the bad news. He’s got a Top 100 prospects list, and even in an unusually deep system as we have right now, there aren’t more than 30 prospects. That means he’s profiling 70 non-prospects and calling them prospects. So that’s basically his perspective.
Having said all that, my impression is that he is pretty serious not just about the quantity of information but about the quality of it. He just isn’t all that interested in using that information to make an assessment that a certain guy has no real shot at making the majors.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions
Maybe it’s more for the die hard Kinston fans that are aching to know what Chris Nash can do to help bring home a championship. They are tired of being dismissed offhand. Tony is their only hope . . .
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 9, 2009 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
This is, I think, a hopelessly naive comment. Maybe I’ll grant you Hoynes bears responsibility for 0.05% of his readers’ baseball savvy. Did Hoynes teach these people in school? Is he supposed to be some sort of pedagogue, lecturing his readers about what really matters in baseball?
You have a much more sanguine view of the intelligence of the common fan. At a time when newspapers are told they need to appeal to young (which means, for the most part, ignorant) readers, a columnist wouldn’t last long getting fancy with numbers of being perceived as talking down to his readers.
I think that over the long haul, readers learn what to think is important from the writers. It isn’t about getting fancy with numbers, it’s about saying right things about the numbers instead of wrong things. What do we have newspapers for if not to gain information from them?
by Jay on Feb 8, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, you can talk intelligently about baseball players without mentioning VORP and OPS+. He doesn’t have to talk like the BP or THT guys, but he can educate the readers to not overvalue RBI and W-L record. You can at least talk about the value of OBP and SLG, most readers should be familiar with those stats. And it’s not just about stats; it’s the way you write about the game. He can educate the fans about the economics of baseball. I’ll be most fans know next to nothing about the process of arbitration and why young players are so valuable. If fans knew more about the economics of baseball, maybe they’d stop complaining so much that the Indians didn’t resign Thome or Manny or CC.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
Brad, I agree with you. But try talking economics and see where it gets you. It ain’t called the dismal science for nothing. Why do you think the prevailing view is simply, reductionistically, that Dolan is a cheapskate? Because it’s easy! A lot easier than pointing out how value works. That’s why so many people believe it.
You can be smart and communicate to the “stupid” people and educate them, and be popular. Think what Sagan did for astronomy and science in the 80’s. Someone like that for baseball.
Sagan was fun to watch in high school. Listening to him call a ball game would be hilarious.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Feb 8, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
“Boy was that a moon shot! Gee, Bob, the aliens who find that one are gonna wanna steer clear… You don’t wanna mess with a species capable of hitting home runs like that!”
by Logodaedalus on Feb 9, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
“That ball could travel billions and billions of miles, especially if it were to leave orbit and travel in frictionless space.”
“This one’s going so fast, it’s still going to be a youthful ball by the time its twin here on Earth is old and frail…”
by Logodaedalus on Feb 9, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
It is a difficult balance. I struggle dealing with that in my terribly amateur blog posts — how do you appeal to uneducated masses while simultaneously trying to enlighten them and maintain your integrity? It’s difficult when it comes to sports, or any number of things, and that’s why we should value guys like Posnaski so highly.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 9, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not saying we need an economics lesson, but a basic understanding of player salaries and value can’t be too hard. At least raise the level of discourse beyond what it is now. If he would just explain why Omar won’t be coming back, maybe people would stop asking.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 8, 2009 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
Pluto accomplishes what you say. Gammons, too. You’re right that certain writers have shown an ability to do that. And those certain writers are the good writers.
My feelings about Posnanski have been expressed elsewhere. But just because somebody uses VORP doesn’t make him a good writer.
That’s obviously true. For instance, I can barely stand Joe Sheehan. However, I consider Posnanski a good writer overall.
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
Posnanski is a fantastic writer, and it has nothing to do with the fact that he uses VORP (although I don’t actually remember him using that stat). Do you really not like him? I haven’t met anyone who didn’t love his writings.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
No, I don’t care for his writing at all. I’m not sure he ever used VORP—I was pointing out that an enlightened baseball fan can still be a lame writer.
Really? I’m sorry, but what’s not to like? That’s like someone saying they don’t like Seinfeld. I thought everyone liked that show.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 9, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
I never liked Seinfeld. I should have – it’s sarcastic humor was right in my humor wheelhouse. I found after watching it a few times that I didn’t like the characters enough to actually care what happened to them.
by woodsmeister on Feb 9, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
Flag for incorrect use of it’s instead of its.
by woodsmeister on Feb 9, 2009 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
iIt’s sarcastic humor.wWas right in my humor wheelhouse.
Fixed.
by Logodaedalus on Feb 9, 2009 12:33 PM EST up reply actions
You just have to watch in more often, I guess. The characters are all selfish jerks but somehow you learn to like them. The first 4 or 5 seasons are the best. It’s undoubtedly one of the greatest shows ever made, and the more you watch it the more you will appreciate the humor.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 9, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
I definitely started out hating Seinfeld, and after watching it passively for about two dozen episodes, I grew to like it. You just kind of give in and feel all warm and happy.
I blame the pressure of living up to the huge contract I got in ’98 when my parents allowed me to take over the whole basement as my room.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 9, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry excuse. You let down a whole generation of kids just waiting to take over the basement as their own room. What are you going to say to them??
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
That they should start doing steroids so they can play pro ball and escape the basement. I mean…
Too soo?
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 10, 2009 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Yikes, ouch
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 10, 2009 2:12 PM EST up reply actions
Just stop short of making George your idol. It’s ruining my life.
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 9, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
Not really. I just wanted to say “FAIL.”
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 10, 2009 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
Don’t legitimize Seinfeld by cursing him in Italian. He’s completely irrelevant.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 10, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
Say what you want about Seinfeld, but he was certainly not irrelevant. TV Guide selected his show as the #1 show in the history of television. I don’t know much about that magazine and its credibility, but it’s pretty much the only magazine devoted entirely to TV so it has to know something.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 10, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions
Of course, I understand. I was kidding about irrelevant.
Not kidding about hating him though.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 10, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions
You’re irrelevant!
Ha! How about that comeback.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 10, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions
Quoting TV Guide about the value of various TV programs is like quoting the New York Daily News about baseball – both without insight or intelligence.
Haha — I knew you were going to say something about that Chuck. So who do I go to for insight about television shows? There aren’t many publications devoted to writing about television.
Honestly, though, you may not like Seinfeld but you can’t doubt its significance. It was the show of the 90’s.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 11, 2009 7:28 AM EST up reply actions
Entertainment Weekly has good perspective on TV. They did a New Classics feature on 1983-2008, dubbing The Simpsons, Pulp Fiction, Purple Rain and The Road as tops in TV, movies, music and books.
I get that. I’m just pointing out the additional fact that Weglarz has become emblematic of “new” baseball thinking.
Perhaps Weglarz is adored because he deserves to be. I was trying to point out that because he is so adored around here people tend to over-react.
I think you replied to the wrong comment.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 9, 2009 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Not to get to the point of inanity, but he prefers Win Shares and Runs Created. He’s friends with Bill James, so he rides with those instead of the BP or THT stats.
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
They’re also just simpler and easier to communicate. Win Shares can be explained in about 40 words to someone who knows nothing about stats. Each win is worth three Win Shares, so for every team, you take the number of wins, multiply by three, and then apportion them out to all the players based on how much they contributed, using an extremely complicated formula. Runs Created is a simple stat that replaces Runs Scored and Runs Batted In.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
Win Shares can be explained in about 40 words
EXACTLY 40 words:
Each win is worth three Win Shares, so for every team, you take the number of wins, multiply by three, and then apportion them out to all the players based on how much they contributed, using an extremely complicated formula.
Did you count?
This whole book thing really sharpened me on writing to specific lengths. Six months ago, I didn’t have any clue how long 2500 words was, and now I have some really clear ideas about every length from 200 to 6000.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
Jay, this may sound stupid, but I’ve never heard the answer to this question — why do three Win Shares equal one win? Why is it not a one-to-one correspondence?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
He admits that it’s arbitrary. He felt that choosing a more obvious number, like 10, would imply a level of precision that the system does not really have — e.g., he doesn’t think there’s any real difference between someone with 4.1 win shares and 4.3 win shares, and a ten-shares-per-win system would imply that there is one. At the same time, just going by Wins alone would not be precise enough. He feels three-shares-per-win is a happy medium, especially given that he was trying to boil everything down to a significant whole number, with no fractions.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
Why are you bringing this up again, Chuck? Nobody said anything about Posnanski’s knowledge of Cleveland, so why do we need to go down this road again? You’ve already said your piece. Do you really need to keep picking fights with people?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 10, 2009 6:16 AM EST up reply actions
I’m not picking a fight. I’m just telling you why I hate that little gnome. He’s got the temerity to write completely idiotic articles about my hometown and then purports to speak for me and my fellow Clevelanders. Like I said before: if he keeps writing about sports and junk food I’m all right with him. If he writes another piece of tripe like his last article about G. Steinbrenner and his "Clevelandness" I will personally hop and the next flight to Kansas City and turn his fat ass over my knee and give him a good spankin’!
OK, Chuck, besides that one article, where else has Posnanski wronged you with his writings about Cleveland. I think you’re overreacting because you hate the Yankees and you don’t want Cleveland associated with Steinbrenner.
Also, from what you have written, I don’t think you speak for many Clevelanders. You’ve written you can only be a true Cleveland if you’re in a union and work in a factory. That doesn’t speak for many people in Cleveland.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 11, 2009 7:33 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Also, not for engineers with M.D.’s
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 11, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions
I’m just teasin’ man
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 12, 2009 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
I’m just telling you why I hate that little gnome.
Hate? Chuck, man, that is really strong and completely undeserved.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 11, 2009 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
It’s really, really funny that Chuck railed against the guys at FJM for calling Joe Morgan a moron, then he make derogatory comments about someone else just because he doesn’t represent his views on Cleveland. How is saying you “hate that little gnome” different than calling someone a moron? I would call that hypocrisy.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 11, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
You’re right Brad, I have railed against the use of name calling as a rhetorical device. And, yeah, calling Posnanski a little gnome may fall into that category. But then again I’ve referred to Sabathia – and Bill James for that matter – as big tubs of goo. So, if you think that’s the same as some pencil-necks calling Joe Morgan a moron, then I’ll refrain from doing it again.
It doesn’t bother me that you call people names, but then it never bothered me that the FJM guys called Joe Morgan a moron (because he said, and wrote, many very moronic things).
I also don’t get why you hate Posnanski so much just because you don’t think he represents Cleveland. Why does that make him a terrible person? He’s a great baseball writer, whether he’s from Cleveland or KC or Antarctica.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 12, 2009 9:05 AM EST up reply actions
So, if you think that’s the same as some pencil-necks calling Joe Morgan a moron, then I’ll refrain from doing it again.
Not the same. FJM was funnier.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 12, 2009 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
Pluto has only barely scratched the surface. If we regard his use of stats highly, it’s only because his peers are so embarassingly dismal, every last damned one of them.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 2:20 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, I wouldn’t put Pluto in the class of Posnanski or guys like that. He does mention OPS sometimes, but that’s about it.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 9, 2009 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
He mentions it all the time and makes an effort to often remind the reader what an average OPS would be. Hoynes is even using OPS a lot lately.
It doesn’t make either of them heroes, but I credit Pluto with using it first.
Steel Nick
Again, just to keep perspective, I appreciate what Pluto is doing, but we’re really damning him with faint praise, and praising him for being less stupid and horrible than his peers when it comes to the numbers.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
True fact: I started reading because of Bob August and the Cleveland Indians. Sports columnist can be pedagogues.
And there are lots of types of intelligence many of which are not acedemic. It’s a bit self-congratulatory to think that we alone at LGT understand the true value of a given player or organization. Let’s not read too much into all of this.
by mauichuck on Feb 8, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This sentiment shouldn’t get lost here. I agree.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 9, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
joeytable has just become my favorite cleveland.com poster. This from the master:
epdaws – get a life or start a blog
We must have seen it at the same time, Chuck. How dare I post my thoughts on cleveland.com! I wonder what kind of comment is acceptable to Mr. Table.
Hey Hoynsie: How cum that tight wad Dulon don’t sign Omar? He looked pretty good back when we was winning. – joeytable.
8:44? That wasn’t there when I typed mine.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
Does anybody else get the impression that “TheCLEVEman” typed up his response on a cellphone?
by PatBordersHelmet on Feb 8, 2009 9:05 PM EST up reply actions
That has to be somebody else from LGT playing a joke. Much funnier if it’s real, though.
by cleveland teamer on Feb 8, 2009 9:22 PM EST up reply actions
Jay would definately not like the use of “obvi”.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
I think it’s okay when the letters are in the word. The “a” in definately might be a probo though.
by Logodaedalus on Feb 8, 2009 10:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Posted by aussieboy on 02/08/09 at 10:08PM
epdaws
Don’t quit your day job !!!!
… as a journalist?
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 8, 2009 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 5 recs
Man, you are just an old pro already. Maybe this isn’t as hard as everyone acts like it is.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions
See? Lurking helps. And people think we’re unduly hard on noobs.
Like I said, the early favorite for rookie of the year. But keep your head on a swivel, MTF (we’re gonna need to get on a first name basis at some point), because we’re sure to see a bump in traffic with the annual and start of the season.
Steel Nick
Thanks, Nick (and Jay of course), and you can call me Tom.
You guys have been really cool for my first few days—and I appreciate feeling in on the inside jokes, I do. But on the other hand, I feel like there’s a creepy aspect to it, too—you guys are pretty open for a public forum. For example, I figured out I was in the same college class as one of the moderators, although we didn’t know each other.
Hint: he was in a comedy troupe.
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions
I once almost got in a fistfight at Rick’s, but I doubt you were there. Other than that, college was pretty jake.
Do your new duties mean you won’t be breaking the DBR monopoly anytime soon?
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 6:47 PM EST up reply actions
ugh, DBR makes me crazy. It’s the only place on the internet for serious Duke analysis and it’s so, so, so boring. Plus their platform is ridiculous. No offense if you’re Jumbo or something.
Rick’s was awesome. I once saw Rashad McCants sitting in there smoking menthol cigarettes (inside-which, despite it being NC, was never kosher at Duke) with like 4 girls on each arm.
People always complained about how smokey your clothes were if you went to bars in NC, but if you went to eat at Rick’s everything you owned, even things that hadn’t been in Rick’s with you, smelled like hasbrowns for weeks.
What’s your major?
My best friend almost got into a fistfight with the golf team on LDOC one year. I broke that one up.
Econ, but early on I made the (apparently very wise) decision that i-banking wasn’t for me. So now I’m here getting legal.
I have a handful of great basketball players’ stories, but not all of them are appropriate here, sadly.
And you’re dead on about the smoking. For a college built on tobacco money, not only was campus almost smoke-free, but a way smaller proportion of the students smoked regularly (i.e. not just drunk) than I think is representative of our age group as a whole.
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 8:01 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah, ’06.
You think Bio’s impressive, but if you were really smart you’d have been a BME.
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 9:33 PM EST up reply actions
I have a handful of great basketball players’ stories, but not all of them are appropriate here
I thought you said you’d been lurking for a while.
Steel Nick
Saving them for gamethreads, obviously
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 9:54 PM EST up reply actions
Whoa, I hardly have “my own season preview” in print. I have my name amongst a large handful of writers who contributed far more. This cleveland.com exercise is just for fun, though I admit I’ve thought about jumping in a number of times, just to see what would happen. I still prefer Hey Jaysie to anything else, and I’d love to see Hey Jaysie copied and pasted over there as well.
This is not about belittling a writer; it’s about trying to improve the discourse.
Patty-Boyo – take a deep breath. I think my goomba Mario was just speaking in the general sense. Can’t you dig it: the mighty-mite LGT vs. the Cleveland Champ, that Great, Gray Old Lady, the PD Sports Department in a no-holds-barred death match.
Here’s what I think: How about we highjack Hoynsies column for the next few weeks. Let’s see if we can consistently be more insightful and draw a bigger leadership than the master. Whattya think?
With the right lineup i think that would be awesome. If i decided to wade in there i’m sure i could drop some good nuggets, but i might end up doing more harm than good. The right group of guys could make for an interesting experiment. I guess i’m thinking of more of an infiltration than a highjack.
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 8, 2009 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah I meant in the general sense. “Your” as in speaking to the entire LGT community.
by supermarioelia on Feb 8, 2009 9:58 PM EST up reply actions
Chuck,
Yep, re-reading Mario’s comment it’s clear he’s talking about LGT vs. PD, not me vs. PD. Regardless — and I won’t speak for the Big Four — I don’t sense it’s anyone’s intention to be confrontational. LGT doesn’t need to confront the PD, after all; LGT is already far superior. The question is whether traditional media will learn from new media such as LGT and the Indians 2009 Annual. I posted over at cleveland.com for fun, and while I’d like to see the Hoynsie columns picked apart, I don’t favor anything more than that.
Didn’t mean to be too provoking in my comment, just noted how a couple of recent Indians online-related events shared a common thread. The last thing we need is for any hatred between the two…we have way more fun over here on our own.
by supermarioelia on Feb 8, 2009 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
And, for it’s worth, I remember trying to exist in the ESPN Indians’ message board community in 2006, when some kind soul dropped by and pointed me here. Who knows, Evan’s post may re-direct some other like-minded individuals this way, toward the light …
i should add, i couldn’t help but to pile on. . . . hoynes has pissed me off since i wrote in to “hey hoynesie” back in the summer of ‘07. in his previous column, a reader had written in asking about the prudence of keeping jobo, with his five-point-whatever ERA, in the closer spot. hoynes just said something like “saves are the only measure of a closer” and thus jobo = awesome closer. i wrote in criticizing his answer (saying something to the effect that stats like WHIP and K/9 are much better indicators of a closer’s effectiveness. . . wish i could find the column) and, to his credit, he published my criticism, but in his answer he just repeated the line about saves and told me to drop down and give him 20 because i addressed him as “dude.” WTF
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Feb 8, 2009 10:37 PM EST up reply actions
Hey Cap’n,
I definitely prefer your answer to Hoynes’. :-)
I wasn’t fond of JoeBo back in 2007, even when he was getting those saves (probably because my stomach was doing flip-flops while he was getting those saves; those were anything but dominating, conventional saves like you’d expect from a “great” closer. JoeBo was a serviceable closer who managed to make it through in 2007, but then faltered in 2008, partly because his shoulder was injured and he couldn’t throw harder than Paul Byrd).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
yo indiansfan, thanks for the kind words
i agree with your sentiments. . . see, jobo had such an interesting year because, if nothing else, he showed everyone how useless/overrated the save statistic is. it was funny to see someone like hoynes try to sell him as a good closer, because you really had to beat down the rational part of your brain to do that.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Feb 8, 2009 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
I kinda read the Jobo experience differently. What I learned is that you don’t hafta have a 11K/9, WHIP<1.00 closer to win the most games in the league. A guy with servicable stuff and the guts of a cat burgler can get you to the ALCS.
i think that what you’re saying is basically the corollary of what i’m saying (did i use that right? man, i’ve been waiting forever to do that). . . that is, you don’t need a lot of talent to save games, and so saves are a pretty crappy indicator of talent.
either way. . . i can’t say that i hated watching jobo—really, it was kind of perversely funny to me to watch him put two runners on, start to sweat profusely, and then wriggle out of it by a fly ball out to deep center. i mean, i probably did hate it at the time, but looking back on it, i kind of laugh. . . and really, i can’t complain too much about hisl 2007 performance in that he did convert save opps at a reasonable rate, and he didn’t let us down in the playoffs like i really thought he would.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Feb 8, 2009 11:35 PM EST up reply actions
I can’t do it there, so I’m reccing Adam Dunn here.
by Voltaire on Feb 8, 2009 10:45 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
aha i lol’ed
cleveland.com is a terrible, terrible place, but every once in awhile you find a gem
there’s this guy who sometimes posts in the cleveland.com forums under the tag “RickManning” . . . anyone ever run across him? i’m pretty sure he’s constantly on acid. he will post some inane thing (e.g. “Junta! Junta! Junta!” or “Zambie, Kick Me Norm!”) in the subject line of about five different posts, and then leave. he used to do this literally every night around 11:30 PM or so. . . i’m a big fan of his work.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Feb 8, 2009 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
Hey Tabler, might want to check out the comments again. Your buddy Clyde put you in your place. He said you should go back to praying to Bill James instead of posting on cleveland.com.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
I don’t buy that guy’s “Hoynes is just playing to his audience” argument. You can give useful information without actually having to explain sabermetric stats.
by cleveland teamer on Feb 9, 2009 9:55 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly. Those things are not mutually exclusive. You can find a happy medium between sabermetric and mainstream media talk.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 9, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
Fallacy of equal sides (I cannot for the life of me ever remember the technical name for this) going on. The one where people assume if two opinions exist, it’s appropriate for some people to believe one way and some another, and for there to be a debate about which is proper. Usually when one side is demonstrably factually correct, and the other the opposite.
Exactly. I thought about posting a reply along these lines; Clyde seems like the kind of guy who can handle this discussion. But I’m not interested in a long back-and-forth over there, and his post devolved into silliness.
One of the things I didn’t understand about Clyde’s post is his references to all your nerd-stats and geek-centric sabermetrics. You mentioned how often Weglarz walks and his OBP.
Steel Nick
Exactly. People put fingers in their ears and shout because they just don’t want to know. Hasn’t OBP been recorded since the 1890s /toolazytolookup, but I know it’s been forever.
Right. Since when did OBP = stat nerd? I know it’s emphasized more in the past decade, but it’s always been a regular baseball statistic. It wasn’t created by some guy in his mom’s basement.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 9, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
If OBP = stat nerd, then stat nerd = Branch Rickey, and for that matter, Ted Williams.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
I’ll bet Branch Rickey spent a lot of time playing on the computer in his mom’s basement. What a nerd!
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
That’s right. Don’t quit your day job, Branch Rickey!
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
heh, I was just reading about that in Bill Veeck’s autobiography. The way he described the Continental League was priceless:
After a little debate, the Continental League was buried. At least, it would have been buried, if anyone could have found a body.
I think you really won them over with that great “false dichotomy” line.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
Nick Weglarz, of course, has been something of a favorite son on LGT. Would everyone be so riled up if Hoynes’ didn’t come to the defense of Trevor Crowe or the fat shortstop?
Do you not understand what bothered me in Hoynes’ response regarding Weglarz? It’s not about coming to someone’s “defense.” And it’s not about Weglarz being a “favorite son.” Perhaps Weglarz is adored around here as a result of his value and performance.
Really, it’s about understanding a player’s value and potential. Nothing more. If I told you that Wes Hodges was in his high school hall of fame, has played outfield in college, and prefers the Slanket to the Snuggie, would that satisfy your curiosity about his place in the organization? Because it’s not that different than what Hoynes did with Weglarz.
i saw someone wearing a slanket outside last night
So 2009.
by Gradyforpresident on Feb 9, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions
Ahh. The Snuggie is for Religion Club chicks. The Slanket is for ADpi girls after an Everclear mixer.
by tabler84 on Feb 9, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I rec’d this, but it still felt a little wrong
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 6:21 PM EST up reply actions
Where do the backwards robe girls fall in?
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 10, 2009 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
then the girl i saw was wearing a snuggie.
So 2009.
by Gradyforpresident on Feb 10, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Did anyone else catch Hoynes’ reference to Sheffield needing to get even with Asdrubal and Vic this year in today’s piece (2/9)?
Did he already get even with Fausto?
by PatBordersHelmet on Feb 9, 2009 10:19 AM EST reply actions
also, a hilarious judge judy reference
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Feb 9, 2009 12:24 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry. I don’t know what I was thinking. I ventured out there to comment on Hoynes before I came to LGT.
My apolgies. It’ll never happen again.
The bridge between two vastly different worlds. I like it.
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 9, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
Using the same username on LGT and cle.com = bold
Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax...
by ganatz on Feb 9, 2009 4:57 PM EST up reply actions
Actually, I was appreciative that lenred used his LGT handle. I need a program to figure out the rest of you guys over there.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
I don’t know about a lot, but it seems like there’s some LGTers slumming over there based on their responses to your post.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Feb 9, 2009 5:50 PM EST up reply actions
Can’t be. I don’t think Hoynes has internet access.
by Jay on Feb 9, 2009 8:35 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
You left a trail for the zombies…
Three thousand years of beautiful tradition, from Moses to Sandy Koufax...
by ganatz on Feb 9, 2009 7:45 PM EST up reply actions
Speaking of zombies, I came across this while listening to the Wait Wait Don’t Tell Me podcast at work today.
by woodsmeister on Feb 9, 2009 8:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know that there will ever be a better zombie movie than Shaun of the Dead. Best. Zombie. Movie. Ever.
by lenred on Feb 9, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes
So 2009.
by Gradyforpresident on Feb 10, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Winner of the first annual LGT “Most Mancrushed” award.
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 9, 2009 3:51 PM EST reply actions
i don’t think there’s a doubt about that
So 2009.
by Gradyforpresident on Feb 9, 2009 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Can we vote on this? I say parody. It is so awesome if it’s real.
This is the most consistently I’ve read the c.com comments, and, well, it’s like pouring hydrochloric acid on an open wound. Just keeps bubbling up and worsening.
I was prepared to vote real, but the very last “answer” leads me to believe it’s a parody. Scoring 7 runs a game has to be a joke. So my vote is parody
I’m almost certain he’s serious. Remember the caliber of people we’re dealing with.
I love his suggestion to trade Hafner. Every fan thinks there is some magical team out there to take bad contracts off their team’s hands, if only the GM were smart enough to trade that player.
That reminds me of the guy who wrote in Hey Brian! (with the Cavs beatwriter) that the Cavs should trade Ben Wallace and Wally Szczerbiak for Chris Bosh. I mean, how completely out of touch do you have to be to offer a trade like that! Not only do you know nothing about the age and talents of the players, you know nothing about what teams value. Why would that person think Toronto would trade one of the best young players in the NBA for two old veterens?
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
Not that I’m saying the trade makes complete sense, but you do realize Sczerbiak is one of the most valuable trade assets in the league, right?
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
Of course. But the Raptors don’t need cap room (and that’s what Wally provides)….they want to KEEP Bosh. And if they can’t they’re going to trade him for young players and draft choices, not old guys.
There’s a very good chance the Cavs will trade Wally, but it will be for a guy like Marcus Camby.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 9, 2009 10:14 PM EST up reply actions
I hope we trade him this season and rebuild. Our team is a mess, and will be for the forseeable future.
by supermarioelia on Feb 10, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
That’s what they need to do. Get some young players and draft picks. I hear they want to trade O’Neal but I don’t know if they have anyone interested.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 10, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
and don’t forget power tool maker
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 10, 2009 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Oh, and I guarentee that whoever proposed this trade doesn’t know anything about the value of Wally’s expiring contract. He just wanted to trade two guys the Cavs don’t need for a really good player.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 9, 2009 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
When Garnett was on the trading block I heard so many trades that started, "Shannon Brown, Ira Newble… "
Hmm. Kind of like when a lot of people suggest we trade Dellucci for “pitching.”
Steel Nick
That all depends. I might be willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt regarding Sczerbiak’s contract status since it’s talked about somewhat frequently. However, more often than not, you’d be right about the person wanted to trade two quarters for a dollar.
by the way, i don’t think they’ll be trading Wally for a 4 anytime soon with the continuing lack of shooting depth now that Sasha’s on the shelf for a while. Ferry’s got his work cut out for him if he wants to reap the full value of Sczerbiak’s contract.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
So umm… can somebody explain to someone who knows very little about basketball what exactly the benefit of his contract is?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
You trade a equal contract in dollars – like they’re both gonna make $13M next year, only Wally’s goes to 0 after this year and the one(s) you pick up might be on the books for 3+ years.. Voila! you (the guy who gets Wally) got $13M in cap space for 2009-2010. Get it?
Very good. 2 points to add:
- His $11M cap number is something you can work with in a trade, whereas it’d be more difficult to take on Jason Kidd’s $20M expiring contract.
- While the expiring contract itself has value, the player (in this case, Sczerbiak) is not worthless, yet not a star-level player that demands court value in return. He’s the happy-medium as far as his use on the cout.
Personally, I think he’s the most valuable trade asset in the league as posted above. Teams want him because of the expiring contract, and he can provide something for them on the court for the 2-3 months he’ll be there.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
Both very good points. Many times when teams trade expiring contracts, the player doesn’t matter in the deal, the team just wants the cap space for the following year. But Wally is actually a productive player. Not a guy you want to play 30 or 40 minutes, but he’ll give you 15 or 20 good minutes off the bench.
Personally, I don’t know if the Cavs will trade him. They have great chemistry on the team and Wally has played well for them most of the time. There was talk of trading him to get more help inside, but (as you said) with all the injuries they may keep him, at least until Delonte and Sasha come back.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 10, 2009 9:46 AM EST up reply actions
If the Cavs don’t trade Wally for something, it will be a huge failure by Danny Ferry. Wally might be the worst defensive player in the NBA and while he shoots for a high percentage, he needs to be shooting at an even higher percentage to overcome his complete lack of athleticism
I don’t know if I agree with the hyperbole, but I did agree with your sentiment. Problem is, with West and Pavlovic out, I don’t want to go down to just Gibson as a two guard until they are healthy. Since the trade deadline is next week and West and Pavlovic are several weeks from playing, I don’t see how we can trade Wally- unless we get another SG/SF in return. So unless your “missing piece” is someone like Artest, I don’t see how its worth it.
Before the injuries, I wanted Camby. Now, I just think we sit tight.
In the NBA, you should be playing for what you expect to be your playoff roster which will include West and Pavlovic. I stand by it, I think it would be a huge failure if Wally isn’t moved. This is one of the most attractive expiring contracts I have seen
Don’t forget, if there is nothing out there that they think is worth it, they can sit tight and let Wally’s contract expire. WIth Snow’s contract also expiring this would give us about 20 million this offseason to spend on a free agent. Of course, you want to improve the team now. However, it’s not like we lose all value of the expiring contract if it isn’t traded. The same reason team’s want him applies to us also.
I refuse to ever root for a team that routinely does the MVP chant for opposing players.
by TheVanillaGorilla on Feb 10, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
The ideal target would have been Redd. Unfortunately that is not longer a possibility. If Amare Stoudamire is actually available, you try very hard to get him. He is not a top dawg, and his defense leaves something to be desired, but that’s what Ben Wallace is for.
Let me take a look at players that might be available, and I’ll get back to you
What you think that Redd wouldda been a better pick-up than Mo? Even if he didn’t get hurt, I don’t think that Redd wouldda lifted the Cavs like Mo did.
Not instead of Mo. He meant getting Redd in a trade for Wally before the trading deadline this season.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 11, 2009 7:34 AM EST up reply actions
The trade possiblities we are discussing now are what the Cavs could get for Wally (and possibly others) before the trading deadline this season. Redd was a possible target for the Cavs (because they’re looking for more outside shooting) until he got hurt last month.
These trades are completely seperate from the Mo Williams trade this offseason. We’re not saying they should have traded for Redd instead of Mo.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
by Buckeye Brad on Feb 12, 2009 9:00 AM EST up reply actions
I say a big man, yes. Amare can jump out of the gym, which is nice. Our play against the Lakers makes me sick, as does our tendency to get jump shot dependent.
Steel Nick
Hello Nick,
Two things:
1. I just read about where they’re not sure Amare would be the best fit on this team, as compared to Marcus Camby, mostly because Camby is a better defender, which is something the Cavaliers really need – a defensive big man, who has decent offensive skills. Stoudemire would need more time to develop his defense, since Phoenix didn’t emphasize defense that much (especially under D’Antoni). A defensive big man is what the Cavaliers would need to handle the Lakers in the Finals, especially if Bynum is back. Stoudemire may add more bulk in the middle, but it’s questionable whether he can contain other big men on the floor defensively. Camby seems to be more the target that the Cavaliers feel would be a better fit to improving this ballclub.
2. The problem with the Cavaliers getting “jump shot dependent” is the fact that they don’t shoot the ball well. That includes LeBron – that’s why Phil Jackson was willing to live with LeBron taking outside shots; opposing coaches are realizing that he’s not Jordan, Kobe, or even Magic Johnson when it comes to the jump-shot. Opponents will keep forcing LeBron to the outside and making him beat them with his jump shot, an area he is not consistently proficient in as compared to the three I mentioned, and that, in my opinion, is the real reason why the Cavaliers are in trouble when they get “jump shot dependent.” When LeBron’s teammates are shooting the ball well, they can overcome LeBron’s inconsistencies with his jump-shot, but on Sunday, there were rare instances when any of them could hit a jump shot (Z had a brief period hitting shots, but even he went cold).
Some of the Cavaliers, like Z and Gibson, when they are going well, can consistently hit jumpers, and Andy has improved a bit, but LeBron is too inconsistent with the jump shot to solely rely on it when he needs it. In fact, in my opinion, both he and Andy were not confident in taking the jump shot on Sunday because both knew they weren’t hitting it, often passing up shots when they were wide open. That’s likely how teams like the Lakers, Spurs, Boston, and Orlando will try to combat the Cavaliers come playoff time – LeBron’s ability to show teams that he can consistently hit the outside jumper will open up the floor more for him and his ability to pass the ball. Additionally, how consistent the other Cavaliers can be in hitting their jump shots will determine how far this team will go in the playoffs.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Not to rain on the parade, but you all should be having this discussion over at Fear the Sword. Help them out, it’s a good little site.
Burn on, big river, burn on...
by Turkmenbashi on Feb 11, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions
I like how dstrr thinks we just missed signing Schilling in ‘97 because he went to Boston. First of all, Schilling wasn’t a free agent but he was rumored to be coming to Cleveland in a trade (remember the ovation he got at the All-Star game that year?). Second, if he’s a baseball fan how can he forget the Schilling/Randy Johnson years in Arizona?!? How those two almost singlehandedly beating the Yankees in the WS in 2001?? He really thinks Schilling has been pitching in Boston since ‘97 ? And he’s so sure of himself that he’s arguing about it on a message board.
I love cleveland.com message boards.
The best thing probably is to hit [Grady] 2nd -- Jay
maui, did you seriously have an entire conversation with yourself on c.com? I didn’t realize the first time that you posted, then attacked yourself, then attacked you attacking yourself. that was awesome.
This whole thing made me think – it would be hilarious if everyone on here just hijacked just one Hoynes thread to throw out the most blatantly incorrect statements and make horribly one-sided trade offers. I’d personally find that hilarious. Not necessarily because it’s Hoynes – he just happens to provide an easy forum wherein this would easily occur – but because most everyone on here seems to have gotten a kick out of the responses posted on c.com.
It’s late. I’m bored. Just thinking up stuff that would amuse only me.
Nah, it wasn’t me, but the style’s similar no? It’s really a Cleveland idiom, I can’t claim it’s mine alone.
Here’s a hint: I’m eight hours behind you guys and work at one of the most computer secure sites in the world, so I can’t post between ~noon your time and 2300 hours. So most of my stuff is done on the weekends and late at night back on Earth.
All due respect — which is a lot — to Evan, but he’s beating his head against a wall here.
If we really wanted to do something constructive — and do we? — I think we’d just start our own mailbag. I think the point is not so much that anybody reasonably knowledgeable about the Indians could answer Hoynes’s mailbag, but that anybody could pick better questions. There have got to be 50 posters on this site who could put together a more cogent and relevant "Hey ___sie!
by fleerdon on Feb 10, 2009 10:35 AM EST reply actions
I mean, seriously, John Collise of Walton Hills? Jeff Kent? Jeff Kent played for the Indians in 1996. Like Hoynses’s, my math skills are a little suspect, but I believe 1996 was almost 47 years ago. Jeff. Kent. What moved you, John Collise of Walton Hills? Did you unearth a stash of SI’s in your woodshed? Or has this question been festering within you like a kidney stone for the last decade, until one day in early February you just EEEEEERRRRRRAAAAGH! scrawled it down and AHHHHHHCK! passed it into the mailbox?
And Hoynsie — what on God’s green earth made you choose this question? Do you really believe the Jeff Kent trade will have a significant bearing on the upcoming season, or on the fan base’s understanding of the franchise? Or was 1996 just an especially momentous year for you? Should we look for 1996-related information in future “Hey Hoynsie!”s? “Hey, Hoynsie: Did Carlos Baerga think The Birdcage was funny?” (Answer: Tiene sus momentos.) “Hey Hoynsie: Which Indian was the best Command & Conquer: Red Alert player?” (Answer: Indubitably Burnitz.) “Hey Hoynsie: At what altitude could you boil Albie Lopez at room temperature?” (Answer: You’re asking the wrong guy! No, seriously, ask Geronimo Pena instead.)
Slow news week, I know, but this is inexcusable.
by fleerdon on Feb 10, 2009 12:12 PM EST up reply actions 12 recs
this level of outrage must be rec’d when it includes reference to the Birdcage AND Command & Conquer.
by Ryan Kelsey on Feb 10, 2009 12:23 PM EST up reply actions
Fleerdon,
My favorite referece was Geronimo Pena. Mid 90s represent. Nice.
“It has its moments.” Also nice.
I suppose this is the which-came-first argument with Hoynes. Which comes first, better selection of questions, or better answers? I’m voting for better answers — simply because he has his pick of questions. If there is any topic with which he feels intimately familiar regarding the Tribe, he can easily find a pertinent question. So let’s assume he’s choosing questions that he deems to be right in his wheelhouse.
I’ll submit to you that the value of the answer depends on the pertinence of the question. You can knock the Jeff Kent question out of the park, as you did, but ultimately the most I can take away is that the Indians made a defensible decision … in 1996.
One of my professors eschews the Socratic method because, as he says, in most topics it’s “an exploration of ignorance.” That’s how I feel about Hey Hoynsie!
by fleerdon on Feb 10, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions
still haven’t played 3 yet.
So 2009.
by Gradyforpresident on Feb 10, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
First of all, this is hilarious.
However, as a wet slanket, I must point out that Jeff Kent recently retired and that’s probably what prompted the question.
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