Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Please, Someone Make Bob Sapp Stop Already

Extended Annual: Why "Net"

This is the first in a series of pieces that expand on material mentioned in the Indians Annual. Most of this material was excluded for lack of space, and/or because it was a little more sophisticated than a broader audience might appreciate.  There is essentially the second half of the Antonetti Q&A, some more insights from Mirabelli and Grant, a humor piece, maybe even some all-time pitching seasons that didn't quite make the cut.  For today, there's Net.  In the "About the Stats" sidebar to Adam's Top 20 Prospects piece (page 87), I promised that the never-before-published stats Net and Progress Score are explained further right here at LGT, and today, I'll start keeping that promise.

Net was inspired directly by the Indians front office.  I can't remember the exact source, but it was reported at some point that when the Indians are evaluating hitting prospects, one quick-and-dirty check they do on his stats is to see whether he has more walks and extra-base hits than strikeouts.  It's an intriguing idea.  It seems simple, but it's actually a mashup of measuring a player's raw production, and the robustness or durability of that production.  It isn't three-true-outcomes — which at times is so purist as to be ridiculous in many ways — but it is rooted in the basic idea of focusing on the elements of performance that are more directly controlled by the player, and less by other players and random variance.

Well, I figured, plus-minus stats are all the rage lately, so why not make a plus-minus stat out of this concept?  And why not also do it for pitchers, with the same variables in reverse?

Net (for hitters, draft version) = BB + XBH – K

Net (for pitchers, draft version) = K – BB – XBH

The NetSB Tweak (for hitters)

But then, I thought, for the hitters, why not throw NetSB in there as well?  That would give some credit for having "impact speed," without overwhelming the basic production we're trying to capture.

NetSB = SB – 2*CS

I came up with this years ago, and then I was crushed to find someone else also using a stat called NetSB — with the exact same formula — so maybe this isn't all that novel.  NetSB springs from the idea that the break-even success rate for base-stealing attempts is 70% — if you're gaining the extra 90 feet closer to home more than 70% of the time, then you're helping your team, but if it's less than 70%, then you're hurting your team.

What that suggests is that if you steal seven bases successfully but get caught in three other attempts — this is the key part — then you haven't helped your team at all, it's just a break-even.  This is important because it's tempting to think of a guy with 32 SB and 13 CS as a guy who can help your team with his speed — "he can steal a base for you" — but in reality, his base-stealing is more or less insignificant, because he gets caught too many times, eliminating a potential run while squandering an out.  A guy with 9 SB and 2 CS may seem like much less of a threat/asset on the basepaths than the 32-13 guy, but NetSB says that the real difference between the two is exactly one base — insignificant — and to be blunt, NetSB is right about that.

Star-divide

The NetSB formulation above puts the break-even point at 67%, which may seem a bit low, especially considering some would say the true break-even point is closer to 75% than 70%.  I personally am very comfortable with the formula reflecting a 67% break-even rate.  I don't doubt that the "true" break-even point is between 70% and 75%, but a lot of CS occur in very specific situations where the cost is not nearly as high.  Consider, for example, the classic situation where you have a man on first, two outs, and a very good hitter at the plate.  The very good hitter gets two strikes on him, and the runner takes off on the next pitch.  If he succeeds, you've put the runner in scoring position for a very good hitter.  If he fails, then you start the next inning with a very good hitter at the plate — and with a fresh count, rather than two strikes behind.  The break-even on that type of situation is far less than 70%.  Strategic elements are not well accounted for in a 70% or 75% estimate, so it makes sense to stick with the simple formula, correlating to 67%.

Anyway, you add this in to the first-draft Net formula by just, well, adding it in:

Net (for hitters) = BB + XBH + SB – K – 2*CS

One final complication that we realized later was that we were going to be showing Net for split lines like vs-LHP and vs-RHP, and the NetSB part of the formula doesn't really make sense as splits.  I will tell you candidly, Adam and I decided just to distribute each player's NetSB total into those two split lines, roughly in the same proportion to the number of PA in each split.  A more appropriate way to split it would be to have three lines — vs-RHP, vs-LHP, and as-baserunner — but that would have been more confusing way to present the stats overall.  The way we did it, it's easy to see at a glance how much damage a hitting prospect is doing against righties as compared to lefties, and that's the important thing.  The distortion is minimal, and viewing splits for Net is undeniably interesting.

The HR Tweak (for pitchers)

Having done a small tweak for hitters, I decided to do a small tweak for pitchers, too.

Net (for pitchers) = K – BB – XBH – HR

As my Dad strenuously objected and you no doubt will notice, for pitchers we are essentially double-counting home runs.  That is, while for hitters a home runs is just another extra-base hit, for pitchers a home run allowed is scored as twice as bad as a double or triple allowed.  With hitters, you don't necessarily want to see home runs as much as you want to see extra-base hits; some would even say that a prospect who hits more home runs than doubles is in some ways suspect.  Younger prospects, including high-ceiling guys like Brantley (and formerly Sizemore) haven't really developed their full power yet.  What we can say with some confidence is that a prospect's home runs should not be considered twice as important as his doubles.

But it's different for pitchers.  When a hitting prospect hits one out, he's often capitalizing on a mistake, and since he'll see fewer and  mistake pitches as he climbs the ladder to the majors, his ability to hammer mistake pitches a country mile (rather than just hitting a solid line drive) is not that important.  But when a pitching prospect gives up that same homer on a mistake pitch, we want to capture that, as it says something about his ability to get to the majors.  All extra-base hits allowed indicate a pitcher's inability to dominate the hitter, but home runs are also an indication of outright meatballs-served.  To be sure, we are slightly over-penalizing the pitchers and under-crediting hitters when it comes to home runs, but this is the nature of a deliberately simple formula.  We could introduce fractional factors, but at that point it becomes a very different creature.

This seems like a good spot to emphasize that Net is intended to be a useful way to look at prospects.  I have no real interest in looking at it for major leaguers, although you could make the case that it would be worthwhile hitters under 25 or 26.  As presently constructed, it's about emphasizing the peripherals and secondary skills that will help the player eventually succeed against major league competition.  The basic formula is about that, and the two tweaks are about that, too.

Ultimately, for all we could talk about whether to add in HR for pitchers and NetSB for hitters, Net remains very much about the basic idea of comparing K totals with BB + XBH totals.  Note that for each of the two tweaks, (a) it doesn't make much of an impact on the final number in the great majority of cases, and (b) in the few cases where it does make a big difference, it's in cases where you'd want to take note of an extreme situation.  Such as, a player stealing 40 bases and only getting caught five times.  Or a player getting caught 10 times in 18 attempts.  Or a pitcher giving up large numbers of home runs.  For those same reasons, it might make sense to throw GIDP and HBP into the mix as well, both for pitchers and for hitters -- neither one would tend to make much of a difference, and when they did, you'd want to know about it.

The Meaning Of Net

With any new stat, there's a period of discovery.  What do the numbers look like, what's good, what's bad, what's typical?  What is it doing, what is it not doing?  What does it mean?  Let's take a look at how our best prospects who played in 2008 fared.

Net (for hitters)      Net (for pitchers)
Carlos Santana +71 David Huff +66
Michael Brantley +60 Josh Tomlin
+47
Nick Weglarz +27 Scott Lewis
+42
Luis Valbuena +26 Hector Rondon +40
Lonnie Chisenhall
+23 Kelvin De La Cruz +40
Matt LaPorta +22 Jonathan Holt +30
Chris Gimenez +15 Tony Sipp +16
Trevor Crowe +15 Adam Miller +5
Wyatt Toregas +11 Joey Mahalic +4
Beau Mills +3 Ryan Morris 0
Wes Hodges -2 John Meloan -7
Josh Rodriguez
-6 Chuck Lofgren -17
Carlos Rivero
-15 Jeanmar Gomez -21

Let's focus first on what Net is not doing, to keep the faint-hearted among us from freaking out about certain players:

  • It's not aware of differences between levels, or whether a player was age-appropriate for his level.  Santana and Rivero were at the same level, but Rivero is two critical years younger.
  • It's not aware of positional differences; Rodriguez is a middle infielder, Brantley is a corner outfielder.
  • It's not giving much if any credit for contact hitting ability, even though batting average in many ways more significant for prospects than for major leaguers.  That is, younger prospects with prodigious contact hitting abilities often develop significantly more patience and power as they develop and reach the majors, but Net would see those hitters as simply not having much of a story to tell in terms of secondary numbers.

A few guys jump out right away, especially the second guys on both lists.  For those who glance at Brantley's numbers and couldn't see what the big deal was about this guy ... well, this is the big deal, along with the advanced age/level status.  He combines great footspeed with great bat control and a very smart approach both at the plate and on the basepaths, and Net really shows off those talents.  They can't strike him out, and they can't throw him out.  He's good at getting on base and likely to get even better.  If his power develops -- a big if -- he could be a game-changing player, but he looks formidable already, and Net shows why.

Josh Tomlin — absent from anybody's Top 20 list — jumps out even more.  Yes, he was old for his league, turning 24 just after ending the season in Kinston.  Yes, he's only a reliever.  But the other way to look at that is, he racked up a higher Net than almost anyone else in the organization, and he did it in only 110 innings. Then again, Scott Lewis racked up almost as high of a total in only 97 minor league innings.  (Wait a sec, do we need to come up with Net Rate?)

Net also boils down to a single number each of the two best seasons any of our prospects had in 2008, those by Santana and Huff, who both produced numbers that were both superficially impressive and fundamentally solid under the hood as well.  I'd grown tired of noting Santana's obscene RBI totals, and it's nice to have a stat with some real meat on it to look at — his +71 is twice as large as Kouzmanoff's breakout 2006, or Victor's breakout seasons in 2001 and 2002, all of which were more fueled by batting average than Santana's 2008 numbers were. What kind of hitters those two players turned out to be in the majors has been dictated largely by whether they could continue to hit for high average, but Santana's stunning +71 suggests that he has more than one avenue to developing into a major-league threat at the plate.

As a final note, of the top six hitters ranked above by their 2008 Net total, the Indians acquired five of them in the past nine months.  Anybody think that's a coincidence?

Comment 162 comments  |  5 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

I wonder if Net SB should be constrained to have a minimum of zero...

Someone with a negative Net SB (and multiple attempts) is potentially relatively speedy with a clueless manager.
This is cool stuff though.

by Braun Holio on Mar 15, 2009 8:08 PM EDT reply actions  

I’d have to disagree. Part of the reason for scoring it like this is to point out how much bad base running can actually cost. I think it’d be next to impossible to control for managerial decision making – that’s just always going to part of the noise – but you have to penalize a guy for getting caught stealing. By arbitrarily assigning a zero barrier, guys who are frequent, but not very good, base-runners would be getting rewarded.

by APV on Mar 15, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I also wonder if it’s unfair to penalize players for this. Players in the minors—especially in the lower levels—are still experimenting with this aspect of their game and settling into an appropriate SB frequency.

by jhon on Mar 16, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah? Like who?

I haven’t seen many negative NetSB totals so far, except the occasional low negative one, like 3 SB and 3 CS = -3 NetSB, generally for guys not known for their speed. What you’re going to see is that for guys with a lot of speed who haven’t figured out who to have high success rates, they’ll have neutral or low-positive NetSB totals, so the effect of NetSB on their Net will be mild. Until they figure out how to make their speed a real asset, that’s all it should be.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wilton Gurerro is probably the poster child for this. Trot Nixon, when he was coming up, is a good example. These guys are scouted as fast and they end up getting caught 33-40 of the time. By the time they reach the majors, their managers put the breaks on them. It might not be a big enough deal to change your system for it, it’s just something I’m thinking about.

by jhon on Mar 16, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

33% – 40% . The parse thing dropped the symbol there.

by jhon on Mar 16, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know what, since a guy like Trot just about breaks even, as he should, our SB tweak is probably pretty fair. I can’t find anyone whose NET is really going to get crushed by this tweak.

by jhon on Mar 16, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gah. Your, not our…

by jhon on Mar 16, 2009 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s what I was getting at.

I don’t think Net does Wilton a disservice either, in that he pretty much sucks anyway.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh, well sure, we know that now. I was a Baseball America junkie back then and can remember Wilton getting glowing praise.

But anyway, it’s still funny to me that this tweak would really screw a guy like Wilton Gurerro, who in 1995 was thought of as a very good prospect by some, one who might be in line for the Dodgers’ perennial ROY crown. He reached AAA as a 20 year old. The SB tweak would have crashed his NET 27 points, because of all the running he did.

by jhon on Mar 16, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

I made a brief list to satisfy my personal interest. I didn’t find too many players who get totally hosed by the formula. Many players can lose 6-12 points in a bad luck year, players who go on to be perfectly fine runners in the Majors (not basestealers per se, but the kinds of players who steal 9 bases and get caught 3 times). A lot of it is timing. Last night I noticed one season in which Carl Crawford would have lost 4 points of NET because of this adjustment. It might have impaired a good look at a Jermaine Dye prospect season. I guess that as long as we look out for anomalies, it shouldn’t be a problem. The tweak looks good to me almost every time.

by jhon on Mar 17, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jonathan Holt… your table is ready.

This is some really heady stuff. Encouraged about Chisenhall as well.

by cheech99 on Mar 15, 2009 8:16 PM EDT reply actions  

Holt and Tomlin are both guys who put up pretty stunning K:BB numbers last season

by APV on Mar 15, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

So how does it work with a guy like Holt. Just turned 23… I assume he starts at Kinston, do you hope for the mid-season promotion to Akron and if he succeeds there; then he’s age-appropriate for the league and perhaps worthy of more significant prospect status?

by cheech99 on Mar 16, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d hope these guys get treated fairly aggressively, but I’m sure a lot of factors go into those decision making processes and I’m not sure there’s a simple way to predict how the front office deals with them

by APV on Mar 16, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Have you thought about normalizing the Ks, BBs, and XBHs to the same scale? I guess part of the point is to keep it quick and dirty, though.

by FranklinScott on Mar 15, 2009 8:36 PM EDT reply actions  

They are normalized in a sense — each one of them is the result of exactly one PA.

I know what you mean, but no, that is not a very tempting proposition. But, you know, knock yourself out, make your own version.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 15, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Jay, to answer your question: I’d say yes, rate is a good idea.

But this is outstanding stuff. This is a nice look at the kinds of things that are analyzed in private. I wonder if the Tribe FO is going to surreptitiously feed the public the wrong things now that this kind of stuff is getting out there…

Oh, and I’m excited to join the ever-growing Michael Brantley bandwagon.

by tabler84 on Mar 15, 2009 8:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh, and I’m excited to join the ever-growing Michael Brantley bandwagon.

I was thinking the same thing. I didn’t really know much about him when the CC trade was made, but the more I read about him on here the more I like. I’m looking forward to watching him in Columbus often this year. He’d better not disappoint, or some people are here are going to have some ’splainin to do.

by Buckeye Brad on Mar 15, 2009 9:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m looking forward to watching him in Columbus often this year

All you Ohio folks have a wealth of riches to watch this year. Even if you can’t make it to Cleveland, there are some pretty exciting teams to watch in Columbus and Akron.

by APV on Mar 15, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m a little cheesed that you split from Ann Arbor, since I was planning on hosting some Mud Hens/Clippers parties this spring. I think I’m running fresh out of tri-state area LGT’ers.

by fleerdon on Mar 15, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m a tri-state LGTer.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 15, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, you’re also welcome to come see some Mud Hens games then.

All kidding aside, I’m actually looking forward to minor league baseball. The Hens are going to be comically awful this season. When your AAA club is lamenting the loss of Ryan Raburn, you know grim days are ahead.

by fleerdon on Mar 16, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

As a student at (13) The University of Akron, I can say that my studies will suffer on home dates at Canal Park.

"...leading the league in most offensive categories. Including nose hairs."

by sarcasmdave on Mar 16, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

This post is pretty much spot on. I think I agree with all of it… and probably would have written nearly the same thing if I hadn’t read the comments first.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Mar 16, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve thought this was pretty awesome since I first started. I’d be interested to see how other systems shape up.

by afh4 on Mar 15, 2009 9:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, this too.

I’m curious if “our guys” are ahead of other teams’ prospects in this area because we’re using it and they’re not.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Mar 16, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

if i had to pick one topic to be the first thing you expanded on from the book, this was definitely it. it jumped out of that book for me. progress score you had touched on in the past – and covers at least one of the NOT’s of Net, but i love this stat.

the one place i disagree: i kind of am curious about what major leager’s numbers are as a way of measuring production. i’d look at this before i’d look at OPS if it were readily available for everyone.

by Brick. on Mar 15, 2009 9:55 PM EDT reply actions  

I wish there was a database for third base coaches as well, so we could get “Net Windmills”!

by mcrose on Mar 15, 2009 10:19 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Was going to rec but noticed the botched subjunctive.

(That’s for you, Chuck.)

by tabler84 on Mar 16, 2009 6:31 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Was it were? If not, where? Not that I care, natch.

by mcrose on Mar 16, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yea, pretty sure that was should be were.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Mar 16, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve been backpacking through South America for the past two months and check back every once in a while..hope this isn’t offensive, but this is the first thread that made me think ‘I need to get my hands on this book’. I apologize if this has been asked, but is there some sort of e-copy version I could get?

by jakesinger777 on Mar 15, 2009 10:32 PM EDT reply actions  

Sorry, there is no e-version. Even I don’t have an electronic copy of the final pages.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 15, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Poo..any chance of that happening, or do I gotsta wait til I get back?

by jakesinger777 on Mar 15, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not that I’d have any idea — pure speculation here — but I imagine that part of the value of the book is that it’s not a “season preview” but an “annual,” in the sense that it’s supposed to be a way to measure the team’s progress against its expectations as the season progresses. With something as inexpensive as this book is to begin with, marketed to such an internet-savvy audience, I feel as though an electronic version and the obligatory ensuing file sharing would just evaporate MSP’s margin.

I’d be interested to see a kind of subscribers-only follow-up site, allowing for related, up-to-date content to come out online, but insofar as that would end up being a pay-version of LGT, that seems an even more unlikely revenue model. In both cases, it’s tough to compete with free.

by fleerdon on Mar 15, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Should add, regarding that second point, that the free-ness of LGT is what got the book made in the first place.

by fleerdon on Mar 15, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bill James has a pay site that is somewhat along those lines.

I made a real effort to make the book a significant step-up from what you get for free even on very fine Indians fan sites. It helps when you can actually pay people to write about the Indians, it seems more reasonable to put more time into it and make it something special. At the same time, I’m happy to present “bonus material” here. Everyone will enjoy the bonus material for free, but people who have the book will appreciate it more than those who don’t.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

Absolutely no chance whatsoever. Ask nice, maybe someone will mail you one.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 15, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s an interesting concept. I first heard of this type of analysis when Peter Gammons was discussing Michael Aubrey a few seasons ago during the prospect game over the AS break. It makes sense that he might’ve gotten it from the Tribe when discussing him. Gammons pointed out that at that time, Aubrey had more walks than K’s AND more extra-base hits than K’s…not just the combination of the two. So it was a little different than “net”, but along the same lines.

by TribeJay on Mar 16, 2009 12:18 AM EDT reply actions  

Not sure what season that could have been. He certainly never did anything like Santana just did, and even Santana didn’t quite manage BB > XBH > K.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

He ended pretty close to that at Kinston in ’04. 27 BB, 26 K, 25 XBH.

by ClarkM on Mar 16, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he was just like Weglarz, except older and injured.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

My post wasn’t a reflection on how great a prospect Aubrey was, just that he had a very good first half that year, and that it was the first time I heard that type of analysis. Clark has the year right. He actually suffered his first big injury just prior to that prospect game, and it’s been all downhill since then.

by TribeJay on Mar 16, 2009 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I heard Gammons say, a few years back, that this specifically was a tool that the Indians use.

by dgcambridge on Mar 16, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Rec. This is cool.

Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.

by westbrook on Mar 16, 2009 12:46 AM EDT reply actions  

This is cool stuff. I’ll also jump on the Brantley bandwagon and also the Valbuena bandwagon. I’ve only seen a little of his defense in Spring, but he looks pretty sharp at second.

LaPorta, on the other hand, I am starting to get less optimistic about.

by ClarkM on Mar 16, 2009 12:49 AM EDT reply actions  

I’ve been staring at the formula for half an hour trying to figure out if there’s a ‘blind spot’ for any particular kind of player. In other words, trying to rationalize LaPorta.

All I’ve come up with is that this formula could conceivably overrate somebody with truly prodigious homerun power; it’s not accounting for the extra bases in a homerun as vigilantly as it is the extra bases that a good basestealer provides.

Jay and Adam are considerably better than me at this sort of thing but I wonder if it wouldn’t be interesting to remove “XBH” and add in “Extra Bases on Hits.”

In other words, a player would get a +1 for a double, a +2 for a triple, and a +3 for a homerun.

If we do that for last year, just to rough up some scores:

LaPorta is (24)+(2*2)+(20*3)+49+2-75-2 = +62

Santana is +118

Brantley is +68

Someone should probably check my math before taking those numbers totally seriously.

I’m sure someone can quickly explain why this doesn’t make sense. My initial reaction is that it rewards truly massive power prospects and penalizes gap power. That might not make sense as a way to evaluate prospects, where gap power is often seen as future homerun power.

I have the feeling my tweak would give someone like Dallas McPhereson much more than he deserved.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

In second paragraph, that should be “underrate somebody with…power” obviously.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

I really think you undermine pretty much all the analytical value of the metric if you do that.

We do not want moonshot prospects; we want guys who hit the ball hard with alarming frequency.

Let me put it to you another way: Alex Escobar.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Just sort of fooling around…

I think the hitch in my giddyup is what it’s making outliers look like; maybe that shouldn’t be in the discussion at all. But, just taking a sample:
Juan Pierre checks in 2000 at +50
Adam Dunn in 2001 at +34
Hafner in 2002 at +41
Jay Bruce in 2007 at -8
Jhonny Peralta in 2004 at -11
Sizemore in 2002 +23
Sizemore in 2003 +4

I have to go do community service for school but I think something odd is going on. The K penalty is really hurting a lot of prospects that turn out pretty great and the netSB at least has the capacity to really pump a guy up-Pierre.

I get that the system is effectively eliminating players who are really going to struggle with the K (Escobar) I think it’s catching some really great prospects in that net as well. Maybe a lot of really great prospects.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Some other Nets…

Markakis ’05: +23
Braun ’06: +10
Vic ’02: +52
M. Cabrera ’03: +24
Wieters ’08: +55
A-Rod ’94: +20
Hanley ’04: -6
Utley ’03: +14
Soto ’07: +19
Mauer ’03: +58
Youk ’03: +83
Manny ’93: +41
Russ Martin ’05: +37
McCann ’05: +16
Longoria ’07: +22

I basically was just trying to find some of the better minor league seasons of future all-stars. In other words, a quick and dirt check on what the range might look like for guys who end up being some of the better players in the league.
 
Anyone want to provide any insight as to how these numbers might be sorted out in relation to each other and the Indians current list?

I get that Net is supposed to be one piece of a much larger puzzle and I also get that it’s not claiming to have any predictive power.

Where it starts to lose me is in discounting what are obviously great seasons, to a point that warps my understanding of all the data. In ‘07 Bruce OPSed .962 across three levels; in ’06 Braun OPSed .871 across two levels; Utley’s ‘03, Soto’s ‘07, Longoria’s ‘07 as well. These were all seasons that by traditional measure, even just stat line eye-tests, indicated that these players were just about ready to play at a high level in the majors. The question for me then becomes, how am I supposed to reconcile a number like Longoria’s or Soto’s with Brantley’s?

I like Brantley a lot but I’m having trouble fitting his .793 OPS (58 Net) with Soto’s 1.076 OPS (19 Net). Is this not a number that can be used for a blunt comparison in this way?

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

“Discounting” is a relative term. Braun’s ‘06 SLG was … okay, “homer-inflated” sounds stupid to me, too, but he hit 22 home runs. Net’s not giving him bonus points for that. And the K:BB ratio was 100:44. Does that mean Brantley could conceivably be more valuable than Braun? I’m thinking, “Maybe.” Braun still strikes out a lot and doesn’t walk.

I like Net. I use K, BB, XBH myself, but only because it’s all I understand.

by fleerdon on Mar 16, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

So how do I compare the two numbers? That’s my primary questiion. If Braun is +10 and Brantley is +60, then what that tells me is that Brantley is “maybe” more valuable? With such a huge gap, it seems like it’s telling me something more.

Or does it tell me to be wary of players like Braun: while some will become stars many will fail terribly, whereas a player like Brantley is more ‘secure’? Does it tell me that a low net, high OPS, bad defense player is one that will probably be very good early in his career and then get much worse, much faster than a player like Brantley?

I can see all of these things making sense but I need someone to explain to me what I’m supposed to do when I see Longoria’s Net and Brantley’s Net?

I just have a lot of trouble looking at Braun’s line in AA and Brantley’s line in AA and saying, “Choose Brantley.” If Net’s not designed to make this sort of 1:1 comparison, cool, but what kind of comparison does it help me make?

There’s been a lot of talk about being a “quick and dirty” way to get a read on a prospect but if it discounts guys like Braun (or one of the better examples-Bruce, Longoria) so heavily in comparison to guys like Brantley, that seems like a difficult way to make a quick assessment.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

is it closer without the SB component?

by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

Brantley got +12 on the basepaths last year. It’s a nice uptick for him, but even if you take it out, he’s still much better than our homerun heroes.

It’s really the fact that he gets +23 on walks vs. k’s while most of these guys are going -30 or worse on that comparison.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Michael “Net” Brantley

by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is how I read it, too. Net doesn’t “care” what type of XBH you’re getting, so players like Brantley can be creating doubles with their legs. SLG % obviously notices your “brand” of power. Basically, Net becomes less important as the player becomes closer to MLB ready and at higher levels. Then, a player’s HR ability should be real – kinda like Braun, who smacks 30+ HRs out of the gate – and not mistake-based. LaPorta’s HR power is no longer “flukey” – it’s real, country-strong power, so his SLG % isn’t bogus.

by joeee on Mar 16, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

So maybe we should treat Net lightly when it’s regarding a young player who’s shown acceptable, if not sterling, plate discipline and truly giant power?

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’d have to ask the guys who actually study this stuff – I’m just one of the crowd members commenting on the presentation. You gotta think that all good hitters are going to be drawing walks, so the difference between a good hitter with a bad net and a good hitter with a good net is probably XBH and K’s. Grady strikes out a lot now and struck out a lot in the minors, so his Net wasn’t nearly as impressive. Braun wasn’t just getting XBH – he was belting legit homers.

by joeee on Mar 16, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess this string ends at the question “How bad are K’s? When do we discount them?”

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also – how much does doubles power (+ good leg speed) in the minors translate into real power in the majors? Gotta think that HR’s in the minors could turn into HR’s or doubles in the majors, but do gapper doubles turn in the minors turn into gap doubles in the majors?

by joeee on Mar 16, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

*I’m sure there is an answer to this question but I’m just am ignorant

by joeee on Mar 16, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Net actually functions very well for this. I think you will find a strong consensus that at any minor league level, the defensive quality is closer to MLB-caliber than the offensive quality or the pitching. Legged-out doubles still will tend not to be grounders, and for the most part, they will translate to the majors. It’s legged-out singles that won’t translate as well (or as consistently, majors or minors) and Net does not count those.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is never any one specific threshold, for any measure or any player.

We discount K’s to the extent that they’re counterbalanced by hitting the ball hard (XBH) and drawing walks. That’s the whole point.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I tried to make this point earlier, but it’s basically fundamentally impossible to be a good hitting prospect and not draw a good deal of walks. I wonder how much the quantity of BB’s changes from one great minor leaguer to another. So if you’re making outs through K’s and not GBs, Net is gonna nab you for it.

Also, have you looked at how Net fluctuates across minor league levels?

by joeee on Mar 16, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think that’s necessarily true. See second self-quote below.

I haven’t looked at much of anything, to be honest.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I won’t be able to scrutinize every one of these as an example, but let’s look at Braun 2006.

31 2B, 2 3B, 22 HR. This is not the poster child for the mistake bomb, it’s a fairly well balanced line of a great power hitter. Fact is, his power numbers are not even all that eye-popping overall, though they are very good.

Braun’s “Net problem” is his walks and strikeouts, 44 and 100 respectively. I submit to you that that is a real problem, a serious problem. I submit to you that he was unlikely to become a very good major league hitter without dealing with that problem.

The following season, he broke out in his first six weeks at Triple-A. And what fueled that breakout? Well, his walk rate jumped from 8.5% to 11.2, and his strikeout rate fell from 17.9 to 8.2% — a very tiny sample, yes, but is it any surprise that his OPS jumped to 1119?

Now he’s in the majors, and he has that great rookie year — except that it’s largely BABIP, 1004 OPS vs. 892 PrOPS. Next season, his luck falls back but is still pretty good — 888 OPS vs. 851 PrOPS. His strikeout rate is around 20% in the majors. He’s the rare guy that’s getting away with it, but that’s not to say it isn’t a PROBLEM for him.

I noted at the start:

it’s actually a mashup of measuring a player’s raw production, and the robustness or durability of that production.

But then later:

It’s not giving much if any credit for contact hitting ability, even though batting average in many ways more significant for prospects than for major leaguers. That is, younger prospects with prodigious contact hitting abilities often develop significantly more patience and power as they develop and reach the majors, but Net would see those hitters as simply not having much of a story to tell in terms of secondary numbers.

This is the one thing Net does not really do well — but then again, you can always just look at a guy’s batting average and slugging average if that’s what you want. Braun is a consistent contact hitter with a serious power profile. Net does not negate the scouting reports.

I would add, +10 is not a bad Net, it’s just not a particularly great one. He had more XBH + BB than strikeouts, which suggests (per the Indians original reported construction) that he’s basically sound as a hitter. So he’s basically sound but does have some fundamental issues. I think the Net of +10 reflects that very well.

I think Progress Score looks at some of the factors that you’re concerned about. One stat can’t do everything.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, so if player A has a higher net than player B, we can assume that player has a ‘more sound’ approach that will likely translate better at higher levels.

I think my submission is this, after looking through some of those all-star players’ Nets. I think a certain kind of truly great offensive players often haul strikeouts with them from low levels to high levels, all the way to the majors. They’ll likely add a great deal of walks eventually but the strikeouts at low levels don’t really mean anything.

I think Grady is a version of this player, Longoria is sort of the poster child and Soto is maybe another example. And this player type, or derivatives of it, are sort of getting lost in Net. They end up looking like “good prospects” as opposed to great ones. And, that’s what the other pieces are for-to remind us that some of these lowish Net guys are great prospects.

Obviously, that’s a small subset of players and if all of this readily apparent to everyone else, I apologize.

And, to full circle, I think it’s at least sort of possible that LaPorta is part of this class of players. He scouts as a gifted hitter and, what’s been lost in the murmurs about LaPorta, is that we’re still looking at an incredibly small sample.

In LaPorta’s entire career he has barely a full minor league season’s worth of at bats and in those at bats he’s put up a pretty monster line. On top of that, his plate discipline improved a lot over rookie ball in Huntsville last year.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here’s the difference between LaPorta and the other guys you named: He’s a prospect, and the others are all established major leaguers. You started with a list of All-Stars, rather than starting with a list of guys with a certain Net profile. That doesn’t really give us any idea of the yield of those types of players, except that it isn’t zero. Maybe LaPorta will join the others, but maybe he’ll join the list of guys you’ve never heard of because you don’t know every busted prospect in, say, the Astros organization.

By the way, I think we’re going to find eventually that Net totals in the 60-70 range are quite unusual, and that we generally should be quite happy to see someone in the 20’s. I think in fact that the difference in projection between +20 and +70 is not nearly as high as a 20:70 ratio would suggest at a glance.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

No doubt that LaPorta doesn’t belong on the list with them. Simply that his “low” Net isn’t really an alarm bell, nor are any of the other production concerns that people are pointing to. In other words, I think LaPorta is becoming underrated.

I understand that these Major Leaguers are illustrating exception, not rule. My original intention was just to figure out what a “good” Net was-I assumed that most all-stars who could hit would meet some kind of threshold. That’s not totally true but it does seem like +15 to +25 starts to create the kind of threshold you’re talking about-a place where the next 10, 15, 25 points don’t matter all that much.

And, that’s part of what I find a little inherently confusing-the fact that a +60, which many people seem to be taking as part of what’s become the Brantley media blitz around here, doesn’t really mean that much more than a +25. Brantley just happens to be just about the poster child for Net-freaky plate discipline and speed is the easiest way to rack up a huge Net total while flying under the radar.

And to sort of state the same thing again, Net just confirms that Brantley was good at what we thought he was good at-controlling the strike zone. Net is saying nothing about whether Brantley is going to develop the power. I know you stated that explicitly in your write-up but I feel like it got lost in the comments. If that Net number changed your mind about either him or LaPorta, you weren’t paying attention to begin with.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s inherently difficult to figure out what outlier numbers mean, because there are so few of them with which to create a model. That is true of any metric.

As for changing minds, I prefer to see it that Net crystallizes and makes certain things more obvious. If you were already looking closely at LaPorta and Brantley, thinking a lot about their ages, overall production and peripherals, then no, Net will not surprise you. But what Net does do is make that clear to people who haven’t been gazing over that stuff so heavily.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

No doubt on both points. I hope this hasn’t been irritating.

I guess my ultimate message is that Net is a number we have to be careful with, moreso than we have to be with something that we intuit the nuances of, like OPS.

In other words, just because Net is made of components that we understand doesn’t mean that it’s creating a number whose source we inherently understand. You have to stop and think when you see a really high Net: “Why is that so high?” You can’t just stop and say “High Net-higher than this other guy. Better prospect.”

Maybe this was all just a public service announcement for myself.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think I was irritated initially, but I now see it as necessary. Honestly, I don’t really know yet what Net means any more than you do. I am just flying on instinct on a lot of this, and based on what I do know pretty well about minor league numbers, I know that it means something. It is exactly that quality — a very simple formulation that may have a powerful meaning — that makes it so fascinating.

Another similar stat, I can’t remember what they called it, but some coaches were tracking how often a pitcher can put away a hitter on three pitches or fewer. It’s like, wow, that’s so simple, and it really seems like it might mean something. But you still have to figure out what it means rather than just assume. The discussion has been helpful in that regard.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think your first paragraph is aimed at me so let me respond. I don’t think there is anything in LaPorta’s track record (which I agree is pretty small) to suggest that he isn’t going to be a good hitter in the majors. While nothing in prospectland is certain, I think it’s likely that he at least becomes an above average hitter in the majors.

My “concern” is that if he hits like Soto did last year, that only makes him as valuable as Josh Willingham.

by ClarkM on Mar 16, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

I also get that it’s not claiming to have any predictive power.

I am wondering what its use would be if this is the case.

by hans on Mar 16, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, it’s ultimately a counting stat not a curve or something.

That said, it’s obviously supposed to tell us something about who these players are and what that says about their future.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

That said, it’s obviously supposed to tell us something about who these players are and what that says about their future.

Ah yes, and what does it say about their future? (I think this is the question you raised, I’m must sharing it as well now).

by hans on Mar 16, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that’s definitely the big question. And beyond that, “Why don’t great major league hitters have consistently high Nets?” And another way, “What does a high Net mean?” And yet another way “What’s a decent number for a ‘high’ Net?”

SSS understood, of course. Maybe I’ve just hit on some flukes.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, let’s try this on. I once was writing about some of our 2008 draftees, and noted that Cord Phelps’s college career, excellent though it was, really isn’t that distinguishable from Josh Rodriguez’s; I made a similar comment about Tim Fedroff and Trevor Crowe.

All of these guys were simply head and shoulders above the competition in amateur ball, but that’s really the most I could say about them definitively based on their triple slash lines. You’re hitting 400/600/1000, you’re too good for the level you’re playing at. Now, shoot, Cord Phelps could be a major league second baseman in two years. He could also be Josh Rodriguez. He could also be something much less than Josh Rodriguez. What I can tell you, definitively, is that he had nothing left to prove against NCAA pitchers.

Jay added that that’s basically true of any level. You’re hitting .400, all we know is that it’s time for the next step. We can’t say anything about how good you’ll be at that next level, just that you’re ready to play there.

Net seems to upgraydd that idea. If you’re Netting +10, +15, we know, as we do if you’re batting .400, that you’re ready to advance. But we also seem to know that you’ve got a chance to do well when you advance, because Net’s variables are the results that translate.

You say you’ve hit on some flukes. Sure. You picked major leaguers. Major leaguers are flukes. It’s not normal to Net +10. I don’t think it’s normal to Net 0.

Is this anything?

by fleerdon on Mar 16, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I don’t know what the league-average Net is, or the league average for players who are age-appropriate for each level.

I do believe that a positive Net is a good thing, and the more positive, the more robust and durable that player’s skills are. There’s sound, and then there’s ridiculously sound. And then there’s unsound, which is a negative Net.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

But why should we believe what you believe?

by hans on Mar 16, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m interested in the idea of a “cut-off” Net, in the sense that “If you’re above 20, it doesn’t necessarily matter much if it’s +25 or +60. It just says you’re ready to move on.”

One can certainly be ‘more sound’ as Jay alludes to but I think once you start talking about young guys who are OPSing over .900 or 1.000, it’s hard to really fault their approach at the plate. They become products of their own success-they don’t need a rock solid approach to succeed at that level. This doesn’t necessarily indicate that they can’t improve their approach rapidly when challenged.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Look, I just don’t see this as a catch-all. I think it tells us one thing about a prospect but not everything. I think there are many things a prospect can do well that really matter, like hit consistently for very high average at a young age, that this does not reflect.

A more useful way to apply it is to say, okay, Hodges and Brantley both had kind of “okay” looking triple-slash numbers in Double-A … but then you look at Net, and one of them starts to look very different from the other.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your second paragraph clarifies the greatest utility of Net for me. Using it to compare similar players seems like an extremely good idea.

But, when all the minor leaguers are listed together, we have to resist the urge to use it too bluntly to compare guys who are extremely dissimilar-not just in age or level but also guys who profile on the opposite extreme ends of the hitter spectrum.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see it also as a measure of, how tough will it be to keep this guy from succeeding in the majors? Each successive level mounts a new assault on a player’s K:BB totals when he’s promoted. That assault is variously more or less successful depending on the player, but it’s always there.

The more a player’s K:BB numbers suffer, the harder it is for him to remain viable as a hitter or pitcher overall. Raw power can help him stay viable because it’s part of his overall productivity. But raw power will not help his K:BB totals, while K:BB might affect his power numbers significantly.

A positive Net means he has a chance. A solid 20+ Net means he has a fighting chance. With something in the 40-80 range, though, it suggests that it will be tough to break that player down so much that he can’t advance another two levels. A player’s Net is, in a way, his buffer as he climbs the ladder.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is very useful.

I’m extremely curious about year to year Nets. I wonder if great players tend to simply hold near a baseline of +15 or higher, or if they tend to improve, or if they tend to see their Net drop as they move up the chain (like nearly all hitters should) but just drop from an initially higher level.

Net would also seem to lend itself to creating an “exit velocity” hypothesis-if you can escape the minors at a given Net, your chances of succeeding in the majors should increase as that given Net increases.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

My guess is that you’d often see a prospect’s Net peak in Double-A, but it all depends on his age. I’d guess that it gets tougher and tougher to maintain those core numbers as you approach the majors, but ultimately, every player finds his own level at which he finally flattens out, unless he’s a HOFer.

I think it could be pretty interesting to study Net progressions. Here’s a guy we DFA’ed last month, 2002-2007:

-16, -9, +9, +21, -7, +1

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess the 114 strikeouts in A ball should’ve tipped us off.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Also, this might help to finally answer the question “Is AA better than AAA?”

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

who the heck was the +21?

by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

You say you’ve hit on some flukes. Sure. You picked major leaguers. Major leaguers are flukes. It’s not normal to Net +10. I don’t think it’s normal to Net 0.

I actually meant flukes in that many of these guys didn’t appear “ridiculously sound” according to Net yet many of them are the best hitters in the majors.

That question shifts significantly when we start to think of +10 as “really good.”

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would also say, a pretty bad way to design a stat is to start with the goal of feeling better about one particular player.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well, obviously. A man can’t do a little biased scribbling among friends?

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

This was my reaction as well. I also tend to believe that there isn’t likely a holy grail in a formula like this that should be read (not that it’s proponents are claiming this) as the clearly superior way to evaluate prospects. To put it another way, there may be way to find value in the market (the trade market as it seems to be) by finding out specific combinations of skills that also can lead to successful results on the major league field. The new OBP, if you will. Instead of looking for three true outcome hitters, or max defense players, here’s another segment of the prospect population that may be undervalued that the Indians can exploit, and the acquisitions of Brantley and Valbuena would suggest this.

by hans on Mar 16, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

For what it’s worth, you missed LaPorta’s 2 home runs in Akron, which pushes his Net, under your formula, to 68. At least according to my scribbles.

by JRontherim on Mar 16, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

My concerns with LaPorta aren’t based soley on his rather modest Net, but I think Net reflects some of those concerns.

I don’t like the fact that he isn’t likely to contribute much outside of the batter’s box, in fact, he’s probably going to be giving runs back both in the field and on the basepaths (though this is probably minimal). He also gets dinged for position as he is limited to either first or left.

Since his entire value is going to come from the batter’s box, he is going to have to be really good in there to be a major factor, and I’m not entirely confident that he is going to be awesome.

Last season, combining both his AA numbers, LaPorta struck out in 21% of his AB. His unintentional walk rate was 11%. His ISO was .250. There is nothing really wrong with these numbers, the ISO is quite good, there just not super-duper good, especially for a 23 year old, supposedly polished hitter in AA.

One thing though, that Net doesn’t include, and depending on how you feel, really helps LaPorta, is his HBP. He got hit 17 times last year and I think, though I might be wrong, that this is a fairly repeatable skill.

Also on the bright side, scouts love LaPorta’s bat. On the other hand, PECOTA does not, projecting only a .761 OPS this season.

Please tell me I’m being hyper-critical and that LaPorta is going to be much better than Garko.

by ClarkM on Mar 16, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

One more thing I forgot to mention, the relatively low batting average is also of concern. It might be some bad luck, but I think it also has to do with his K rate and the high percentage of flyballs he hits.

by ClarkM on Mar 16, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

According to minorleaguesplits LaPorta’s luck-neutralized BA is .294. Brantley’s is .305. I don’t think LaPorta’s average is going to sink him.

by afh4 on Mar 16, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wasn’t last year LaPorta’s first full professional season? Shouldn’t we factor that in?

So 2009.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 16, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sure, but only so much.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t really think it should be much of a factor. He signed early enough that he got 123 PA in ‘07 and let’s also not forget that he was a college senior, which I think makes it less of a factor.

by ClarkM on Mar 16, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s how I feel. Net quantifies the “concerns” that I already had about LaPorta — that he may be merely a very good prospect and not super-awesome — it does not reveal any new concerns.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like the Net stat, but as an aside, I’ve always had a question about the 70% threshold for SB stats…

I can understand the fact that, over the course of a season, someone who gets caught 30% of the times he attempts to steal is not helping his team. However, some of those SBs are potentially extremely impactful, i.e. Dave Roberts for the ‘04 Red Sox. Is there anything that measures and weights the impact of specific SBs over the course of a season? I dunno, I guess that’s just kind of a WPA microcosm, but I feel like there could be something more to it, perhaps including factors such as who hits behind the player on base. I dunno, it’s also almost 2 on a Sunday night…

I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck

by Turkmenbashi on Mar 16, 2009 1:41 AM EDT reply actions  

WPA is exactly what you’re looking for, but you’d have to go through the play logs to find it.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that makes much more sense now than it did last night.

I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck

by Turkmenbashi on Mar 16, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can someone direct me to a good location for XBH numbers off of pitchers, by the way? I can’t seem to find any for minor leaguers.

by JRontherim on Mar 16, 2009 2:00 AM EDT reply actions  

FirstInning.com shows 2B, 3B and HR for pitchers.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

Great stuff. My only question: I think I’m on terra firm when I suggest the notion that strikeouts—even a lot of them—aren’t all that bad for Major League hitters; but do strikeout numbers matter more for prospects? That is, do high strikeout numbers state that a hitter is overmatched?

Adam Dunn, the last three years, would have posted Nets (without the SB tweak because I’m too lazy to figure that in right now and it’s nearing 4 a.m.) of 21, 3, and -18. Those seasons, he posted OPS’ of .894, .940, and .855. Furthermore, his wOBA for those three seasons was .383, .399, and .365. Maybe it’s just me, but it seems like players of his ilk – or really anyone with particularly high K numbers – are undervalued in this format.

I see that you wrote that it’s intended really only for prospects, and I’m kind of a bit curious as to why it’s specifically developed for prospects, rather than as a catch-all stat viable for Major League players.

Obviously no one stat is perfect, yada yada yada, and this is actually quite interesting and useful. Just a random musing. (And this could all be crap, but the thought popped in my head.)

[And I’d love a way to work in groundball percentage, or GB:FB, or something, for both hitters and especially pitchers.]

I should probably go to bed now.

So 2009.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 16, 2009 4:53 AM EDT reply actions  

Because the strong assumption is that (a) K rate is going to increase for hitters, and decrease for pitchers, as the level of competition substantially rises, and (b) the player’s overall hitting/pitching skill cannot be sustained beyond a certain K rate. Note also that we aren’t looking at K rate by itself, but rather to what degree a player has complementary skills to balance his K’s.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Note also that we aren’t looking at K rate by itself, but rather to what degree a player has complementary skills to balance his K’s.

OK, my second question: what’s a good number?

So 2009.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 16, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good Net number, that is

So 2009.

by Gradyforpresident on Mar 16, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Albert Pujols’ one season in the minors: 60.

by FredOx on Mar 16, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’d add that for every Adam Dunn (from a prospect perspective) there a bazillion wind machines that quickly fizzle against better competition. For ever Dunn, Thome, etc. you’ll find 1,000 guys with similar strikeout profiles that just tanked.

Don't be stupid. PUT IN MELOAN.

by gte619n on Mar 16, 2009 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

Its not just the strikeout profile, its the HR,BB,K profile. Its pointless to look at only the Ks, its not as if those players you listed (Dunn, Thome) didn’t also show the HRs and BBs in the minors before breaking into the majors.

by hans on Mar 16, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Great stuff! I’m always looking for a quick’n’dirty calc to decide whether I want to follow a prospect or not. This will replace everything I use . I may still look at my now outclassed power ratio for pitchers every once in a while though – K/IP * K/BB

Stuart Dean

by stuart dean on Mar 16, 2009 7:56 AM EDT reply actions  

I like it. And yeah, there’s no way around it, you’ve got to look at rate too.

by dgcambridge on Mar 16, 2009 11:48 AM EDT reply actions  

This isn’t meant to entirely discount the benefits of a rate formulation – but one of the reasons to present a single number is that for a prospect, perhaps even more than a major league veteran, health is not an external factor to be excluded, but an important criteria for evaluation.

by APV on Mar 16, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I couldn’t agree more. Just saying, no matter what the stat, we always balance in our heads the rate and the total count. We need both pieces of information. (Which doesn’t necessary mean we need you to calculate it for us. If it’s not explicitly written out, we just make a rough calculation in our head based on innings thrown by Huff verus Miller. Why do I keep saying “we”?)

by dgcambridge on Mar 16, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here’s a fun one.

Jared Goedert (2007): +42

by APV on Mar 16, 2009 8:04 PM EDT reply actions  

Yes, but what was his Progress Score?

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

a pretty respectable 6.6 (giving him 0.5 for defense)…

…highlights how horrendous his 2008 was

by APV on Mar 16, 2009 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he’s just one of those “what the hell?!!?” guys.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

He got injured in some fashion, didn’t he?

by APV on Mar 16, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, but his big shoulder surgery was in late 2006, so it’s odd that that didn’t hinder him in 2007 but did in 2008.

I honestly want him to go away, because I know he isn’t going to wow me, and I don’t think I can take another mediocre 3B prospect. Just thinking about it makes me want to put my head in an oven.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

too bad they didn’t keep him at 2nd – then we could have had a failed second base prospect without having to deal with the trouble of seeing him in Cleveland. What a nice break that would be.

by APV on Mar 16, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is Progress Score perhaps too forgiving of the too-old-for-his-league thing? He should have been in Double-A with a Level score of 4, and instead he’s going from Lake County to Kinston or a Level score of 1. All he has to do to over come that is smack a measly 180 points more neutral OPS. Now you would think 180 would be enough, but maybe it isn’t.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know. At some point in the summer I want to look a little more closely at a lot of these numbers. There are a few adjustments I’d make – thought now sure if they’d change Goedert’s eval after 2007. The fact is he annihilated Lake County, and while he saw a big drop-off at Kinston, he still had seemingly fundamentally sound numbers.

by APV on Mar 16, 2009 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

with apologies…can someone point me to a ref (or just lay out a quick explanation) that tells me about Progress Score?

/ducks thrown shoes…

by DontCallMeJoey on Mar 16, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s coming soon, part of this series of articles.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

It’s an interesting discussion, this NET. Here’s my take, not that you asked.

I think this is potentially useful for a certain type of hitter. In fact, it’s almost written for Brantley – somebody who hits doubles when they hit an XBH, and who obviously walks, doesn’t K, etc (see anything andrew wrote above). Anyway, this probably profiles most to the typical MI or CF prospect, I would think, and falls off significantly in relevance with a SLG 1B or OF, who can of course be significantly better prospects with worse NET numbers (who would put Brantley above Weglarz or LaPorta?). So here’s a thought – if you play a premium defensive position, NET is going to be a potentially useful number for you. If you don’t, skip it. You need power on the corners, and NET doesn’t like it some power hitters.

Expanding on this, the issues with the formula’s validity can be explained by a little quantification. First, a SB is worth significantly less than either a walk, 2b, 3b, or HR – but NET gives it equal contribution to the outcome, even after being adjusted for CS (the same is true for BB to a lesser extent). How much less? The run value of a SB (basically how many runs that event contributes) is 0.175 runs, vs. a bb at .323, a 2b at .776, a 3b at 1.070, or a hr at 1.387 (ref: “The Book”). So roughly speaking, a SB is worth 4x less than a 2b and 8x (!) less than a HR (note: a BB is worth 4x less than a HR, so it’s better but far from fair). I know, I know, the point of NET is something simple, and I’m not asking to adjust it for run values, but at the same time it tells us why Beau (with his undervalued 17 HR over Brantley last year) looks forgettable pretty quickly.

And just to complete the cycle, if you take all the individual components of this formula and weigh them per the run values above (cs=-.467, k=-.301), Brantly ends up with a 30.1 and Beau has a 43.7, which starts to make sense from an offensive ability perspective.

by Thommy on Mar 16, 2009 11:35 PM EDT reply actions   2 recs

Good post, although i see it as simply another way to find undervalued talent in other systems (or drafts), rather than just something to use for MI and CF prospects. But to be fair the value I see comes in the presumed ability of these types of hitters to (identified by NET) to a.) make it to the bigs due to excellent plate discipline and b.) develop physically and improve their power numbers by the time they make it to the bigs. Without a serious look to see if this actually correlates, its just a hypothesis though.

by hans on Mar 17, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

The run values are a great point. I hadn’t thought of pulling those numbers specifically but there really exactly what I wanted.

by afh4 on Mar 17, 2009 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

What you say is good, but I think you are missing a large part of the point. I don’t want to speak for Jay, but I see the purpose of the net score as not to retroactively assess the value of the production a player has put up – which is what you are suggesting with the inclusion of the run values for each event. I think instead it is intended to focus on things a player has done which suggest positive things for his future development. Net places value on contact ability and solid contact, as well as speed, with the idea that these are qualities which help suggest good things about a prospects ability to translate what he has already done into future success at more advanced levels. As such it is a fairly strange stat, in that it is neither intended to assess the value of current or past production value, and neither is it intended to predict future value. Instead it is more about estimating the likelihood that past value will translate into future value. At least that’s how I view it.

by APV on Mar 17, 2009 7:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Sort of like a very unscientific confidence interval, right? If a guy has a Net of X, then we’re Y% confident that his triple slash will translate at a higher level of play.

by fleerdon on Mar 17, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

*confidence level? I think it’s confidence level. It’s been 4 years since b-stats.

by fleerdon on Mar 17, 2009 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Confidence interval was correct.

by Buckeye Brad on Mar 17, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

My calc 101/stats 102 – level mathematical education bites me in the ass, example #163.

by fleerdon on Mar 17, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

I would even try to make the comparison to a confidence interval as I think it is suggestive of a level of precision Net doesn’t aim for. Basically it’s a number telling you if a guy is doing more or fewer good things – the more the better.

by APV on Mar 17, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

damn – that should say, “I would not even try to make the comparison to a confidence interval”

by APV on Mar 17, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Confidence interval it is.

Tadwick, take a memo for me.

by fleerdon on Mar 18, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I see what you and hans above mean, and you guys clearly have thought about it and ‘get’ it. Some in this thread, however, seemed a bit of confused (where art thou LaPorta?), or perhaps thought that NET = Offensive productivity potential. I went my normal nerdy way in offering an explanation of this in the case it helped anybody properly frame this (i.e. what andrew couldn’t get his finger on).

I struggle with stuff like this for the same reasons you list near the end of your post, with my biggest issue being poor validity, or the fact that neither is it deterministic of future ML success or representative of current ability. Anyway, what it chiefly misses is power, so, almost automatically, people with high NET values require projected power to complete their future awesomeness (e.g. Brantley). Santana, however, is the best of both worlds here – he simply doesn’t fit within these constraints because he is a badass.

I have heard of some quickly looking at BB-K, and anybody with a positive number is doing something right.

by Thommy on Mar 17, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Santana, however, is the best of both worlds here – he simply doesn’t fit within these constraints because he is a badass.

Victor II

by Voltaire on Mar 17, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

As an aside, Jon LuCroy’s Net last year was 21; Taylor Green’s was 36.

Green is a very similar hitter to Brantley just not as destructive on the basepaths.

by afh4 on Mar 17, 2009 11:50 AM EDT reply actions  

I guess not very similar. Somewhat similar.

by afh4 on Mar 17, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

essentially similar?

by Brick. on Mar 17, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

essentially comparable, somewhat equal?

by Thommy on Mar 17, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

literally not dissimilar.

by afh4 on Mar 17, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know, Green’s K rate is plenty low, but it’s still twice Brantley’s.

Main difference between them is that Brantley was doing it a level higher (and is six months younger).

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Carlos Santana for free Casey Blake.

/slaps self in face

Carlos Santana for free Casey Blake.

/slaps self in face

by fleerdon on Mar 17, 2009 2:19 PM EDT reply actions  

to be fair, if you subtract meloan, we only got back +64.

by Brick. on Mar 17, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is Meloan just one of those guys with unhittable stuff who can’t control it? Big-time walk problems last year, which is why I’m suprised that so many people are so high on him. Of course, he was excellent before last year, so who knows? And sometimes guys with great arms but no control (see Bobby Jenks or Nuke LaLoosh) figure it out and succeed, but it always seems like a lottery ticket situation to me….

by dgcambridge on Mar 17, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

which is perfect for the second player returning for a few months of casey blake.

by Brick. on Mar 17, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

to a degree, but he’s not as bad as jenks was. In fact, his walk rate considering his k rate isn’t all that bad. Anyway, this was all exacerbated by the move to the rotation last year, or at least that’s the working theory.

by Thommy on Mar 17, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

If anyone is interested, I figured out Meloan’s value based on the three formulas suggested for his 2007 season (not counting his short stint in the majors), assuming his 2008 was lost and misleading due to his move to the rotation. I really only did it for my own benefit because I’ve always been undecided on him, but figured I may as well pass it along.

Jay’s Net: +46
Andrew’s: +36 (Or, since this formula already penalizes more for home runs, if you don’t penalize twice, +41)
Thommy’s: +62.201

by JRontherim on Mar 17, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Constantly updated Indians news, lots of in-depth analysis, live in-game discussions — and more fanatical and thoughtful Indians fans than every other web site combined.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Dsc01731_small
Some quick questions for the locals
Etat_small
Eric's 2012 Cleveland Indians Projections...
Its_alive-fstn_small
Oswalt > Carmona/Heredia
Topps1978-332f_small
Indians by the Numbers — #24
Avatard_small
Nickname Seeks Indian — "Country Peach Passion"
Avatard_small
Nickname seeks Indian vote — "Fridge Magnet"
Topps1978-332f_small
Indians by the Numbers — #23
Small
Seriously Go Get Carlos Peña Now
Avatard_small
Indians by the Numbers — #22
Avatard_small
Nickname Seeks Indian: "Fridge Magnet"

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Featured Poll

Poll
Will Matt LaPorta be on the opening day roster?
Yes
59 votes
No
140 votes

199 votes | Poll has closed

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Indians depth chart heading into spring training (from Acta's twitter account)
Cleveland reliever Vinnie Pestano had the highest fastball swinging-strike...
Oakland Out-Winnercurses MLB for Cespedes
Indians Sign Jon Garland
A look back at the last Tribe arbitration hearing
MLB.COM Tribe Top 20
Jared Goedert is Puddin Head Jones
Chisenhall v.  Hannahan
After watching Lindor in the Fall Instructional League, I have very little...
Coming off of an optimistic 80-82 season, is this the Indians window to win?  

See full post on Beyond the Box Score

+ New FanShot All FanShots >


Managers

427px-nap_lajoie_1913_small Ryan

Dosequisman_small Jay

Editors

3444ant_black_small APV

47b8dd28b3127cceb64839d9746800000026102bauwjrq3za_small afh4