All-Time Indians - Homegrown vs. Acquired
by Jay on Mar 16, 2009 7:45 PM EDT
in Events
148 comments
I was e-mailed an interesting link last night, from a delightly obsessed baseball blogger who goes by the name Sully. Apparently he is going through all 30 franchises this offseason and naming, not one, but two all-time great rosters for each franchise. One roster is exclusively players who were drafted and/or signed as amateurs -- 100% homegrown -- and the other is players who were acquired via trade or free agency.
His complete rules are here, and his full article on the Indians All-Time Rosters is here and definitely worth a full read. Since he doesn't present a simple listing anywhere in his article I'll present one here. I nudged him on a couple of choices, but who are the big snubs? And which club would you rather have on the field?
| ALL-TIME HOMEGROWN | ALL-TIME ACQUIRED | |
| Victor Martinez | C | Sandy Alomar Jr. |
| Jim Thome | 1B | Eddie Murray |
| Bobby Avila | 2B | Napolean Lajoie |
| Lou Boudreau | SS | Omar Vizquel |
| Al Rosen | 3B | Brook Jacoby |
| Manny Ramirez | LF | Shoeless Joe Jackson |
| Earl Averill | CF | Tris Speaker |
| Larry Doby | RF | Elmer Flick |
| Albert Belle | DH | Travis Hafner |
| Bob Feller | SP | Gaylord Perry |
| Bob Lemon | SP | Early Wynn |
| Herb Score | SP | Len Barker |
| C.C. Sabathia | SP | Orel Hershiser |
| Addie Joss |
SP | Cliff Lee |
| Satchel Paige | RP | Jose Mesa |
| Ray Narleski | RP | Bob Wickman |
| Gary Bell | RP | Gene Bearden |
| Mel Harder | RP | Doug Jones |
| Sam McDowell | RP | Stan Coveleski |
| Joe Sewell | IF | Carlos Baerga |
| Hal Trosky | IF | Roberto Alomar |
| Cory Snyder | OF | Kenny Lofton |
| Dale Mitchell | OF | Grady Sizemore |
| Ray Fosse | C | Tony Peña |
| Rocky Colavito | 25 | Cy Young |
UPDATES: Sully has updated his rosters based on new information and feedback from the LGT mob. First, the presumptive, eventual MVP Grady Sizemore takes Joe Carter's spot. Next, Addie Joss has moved from the Acquried roster to the Homegrown roster, knocking Charles Nagy off the Homegrown roster and making room for Cliff Lee on the Acquired roster. I'm not sure Lee deserves a spot over Nagy, but since they're not competing for the same spot, the point is moot.
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I like Brook Jacoby, but is he really our best acquired 3B (I suppose neither Fryman or Williams have the longevity)? And can we give Joe Carter’s place to Sizemore? Tony Pena? Also, I know we all have fond memories of Cory Snyder’s mustache, but does he really merit any kind of All-Time team? It also seems like Bartolo Colon should be there somewhere.
by APV on Mar 16, 2009 8:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
How about my home town boy Toby Harrah?
by ClarkM on Mar 16, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For home-grown outfielders, how about Jeff Heath (1936-1945). He made his MLB debut with the Indians, so I presume he’s home-grown.
by Ryan on Mar 17, 2009 5:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get Sizemore in there. And Addie Joss was a hack – replace him with Westbrook.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Mar 16, 2009 8:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Addie Joss was a hack
Take it back! Those are fighting words on my end of the street.
No, not you. Your helmet!
by PatBordersHelmet on Mar 16, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know of Joss because of this site. And because of this site, I obviously know he was really really good.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Mar 16, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was working on my CV this morning and accidentally pasted your comment that I quoted into the body of my professional experience. Thanks for the laugh.
No, not you. Your helmet!
by PatBordersHelmet on Mar 17, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pie Traynor was a hack, not Addie Joss. Strangely, Hack Wilson has not a hack.
At any rate, Addie is actually a home grown guy, so he needs a new file anyway.
by jhon on Mar 16, 2009 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good call
I made a mistake with Joss…
Cr@p!
OK, back to the post for a correction
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Still doesn’t get Westbrook in there. Good call on Cliff. Good calls all around. You did a really good job with this.
by jhon on Mar 17, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are some impressive pitching lineups. But though Jose Mesa’s star burned brightly for us, it didn’t last long enough to merit an all-time lineup.
And for the love of all that is decent, get Sizemore on that list. Tris Speaker stays, but Carter is expendable (and within a few years at most, Sizemore will have easily eclipsed Lofton’s career here).
by jds16 on Mar 16, 2009 8:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Also, it feels wrong to count Satchel Paige as homegrown.
by jds16 on Mar 16, 2009 8:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
why? they didn’t get him or doby from a club in the same league.
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But they weren’t amateurs. It seems weird to me, too.
by still ill on Mar 16, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you’d put them in the other column? seems just as wierd. should the rams not get credit for starting kurt warner’s career? gotta pick one way or the other. it’s an obvious grey area.
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
did we need this qualifier?
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Mar 16, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This made me laugh out loud. I need more sleep.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on Mar 17, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m inducing some strange laughs in this thread.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Mar 17, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Paige played for about 20 years in the only league he was allowed to play in. It’s really not the same spirit as what we think of as amateur signings.
I’m very comfortable thinking of him as an acquired player.
by jds16 on Mar 16, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so jackie robinson is an acquired player for the dodgers?
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(Had to Google briefly before responding since I don’t know all details of Robinson’s career.) It appears that he briefly played (about one year) in the Negro League, then was signed by the Dodgers and came up through their minor leagues. I could buy that as a homegrown player. But how you lump that career arc with Satchel Paige’s is well beyond me.
by jds16 on Mar 16, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you’re getting caught up in the word ‘grown’ i think. the same rules should apply to and pro from any leauge then, young or old.
i think a better argument is paige didn’t play long enough with the indians to be on the squad. but the bottom line is the indians were the first MLB team to acquire him. there was no official rule against them playing.
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sully:
And to set very strict rules in my obsessive list writing, in order to be on the Home Grown Team, you need to be signed by a team and brought up through the farm system.
by jds16 on Mar 16, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I guess he shouldn’t be on it, then.
Did Feller ever pitch in the minors?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Mar 16, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The rules for the Home Grown Team could be redefined in a way that would classify players like Grady and Joe Jackson as Home Grown while counting as ‘acquired’.
Also! As far as I can tell, Addie Joss wasHome Grown, by this or any definition.
by jhon on Mar 16, 2009 10:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way
The rules for the Home Grown Team could be redefined in a way that would classify players like Grady and Joe Jackson as Home Grown while counting as ‘acquired’.
Grady Sizemore and Joe Jackson played for different MLB organizations before making their Indians debut.
Shoeless Joe played in the majors for the A’s!
I need SOME hard fast rules. I’m doing 30 of these suckers!
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that Paige didn’t play for the Indians for long enough, though he gets some leeway from me for stepping over the shards of the color barrier in 1948. That reminds me, I’m not clear whether Sully is listing players based on what they did for the Indians specifically or for their careers.
by jds16 on Mar 16, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Usually
Usually I am just including their work with the team…
But there is some wiggle room.
Paige is on there because he deserves to have tons of praise heaped on him as one of the great pitchers of all time.
Cy Young is on the indians team because I am NOT going to do an All Time Cleveland Spiders Home Grown vs Acquired Team!!!
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 1:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ichiro was ROTY. Them’s the rules, we might as well play by them.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Mar 16, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
why did i not think of him. he would be the mariner’s home grown right fielder for sure.
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have
I have Ichiro on the acquired team
My logic
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well that seems counterintuitive. Both Ichiro and Paige played in separate leagues, became stars, came to MLB, and won Rookie of the Year. I can see it both ways, but I would think they’re either both acquired or home grown.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Mar 17, 2009 4:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did the Mariners pay a fee to negotiate with him like Boston did with DiceK? I think that might be enough to say ‘acquired’.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Mar 17, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TRUST ME
I went through all sorts of weird feelings about where to put Satchel Paige
In the end, I realized it’s just a dopey list in a blog
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec but ditch the subject line
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Mar 17, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t think of Doby at first, though it should be the same as Paige. The thing that struck me about Paige initially is that he was older than most retired players when the Indians “grew” him.
by jds16 on Mar 16, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i’m going with the same kurt warner argument (even though it’s full of holes, too). he was old and did his growing in world and arena leagues. but if i were doing this for the nfl and the rams, he’d probably be my rams “homegrown” quarterback.
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t see brantley anywhere in there. has sully seen his Net?
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 9:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All due respect to Wicky Time, but I hope Wood takes his spot on this list in the next couple of years.
by cleveland teamer on Mar 16, 2009 9:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
wickman is the all-time indians saves leader, no. wood won’t be taking that spot.
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 9:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying Wood isn’t going to get 50 saves per year over the next three seasons?
by cleveland teamer on Mar 16, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i figure we’re going to win way too many games by 4 or more runs.
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And speak of the devil, Baerga’s on BBTN right now. I do miss that guy.
by Fire Slider on Mar 16, 2009 10:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did you cancel it? I mean, I don’t like listening to Steve Phillips anymore than the next guy, but I don’t mind watching highlights.
And aha! Found it. I can specifically identify the moment and thing that made me an Indians fan, and it is this: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31bW3JaR3UL.SL250.jpg
by Fire Slider on Mar 16, 2009 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
honestly, it never spends more than 5 minutes a week on on my tv anymore. during the season, if BBTN and MLB Tonight are on at different times – not during indians games – then, i’m sure I’ll watch both. otherwise, it’s like flipping to the local news or cnn to get my baseball fix anymore.
by Brick. on Mar 16, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds about right. Wish I had the Network.
When you google MLB Tonight, the first result is ESPN. That’s market domination. Sucks.
by Fire Slider on Mar 16, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sam’s a relief pitcher? In somebody’s fantasy I guess. Let’s cut to the case.
Gene Bearden? His star shione very, very bright for one – count ‘em – one year. If you want the Indians all time one hit pitching wonder – as of now – ya gotta go with Cliffy over Gene. And yeah, winning the WS counts alot, but still. And for me at least, I’ll take Joe Gordon – for a hot three years – over Baerga’s very good four years with us. And I’ll take Johnny Romano – got him from the WS – over Pena. But I’ll give ya this – Pena was a lot funnier than Johnny. And Cory Bleepin’ Snyder for godsakes! I’ll take Joe Charboneau’s age 25 season over Cory’s age 25 season just cuz I like the colorful over the mundane.
by mauichuck on Mar 17, 2009 12:46 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
BEARDEN IS IN
You could throw pitchers names at me all day… Gene Bearden won the pennant and clinched the World Series for the Indians.
Read that sentence again.
ANY pitcher you name in Bearden’s place won’t trump that.
I always tend to award post season heroism rather than just crunching numbers.
Ergo, Dave Roberts and Dave Henderson… two guys who weren’t starters in the regular season and were gone the next year, are on my Acquired Red Sox team.
Red Oldham of the Pirates was a nondescript pitcher, but he is on the list because he came into the 9th inning of Game 7 of the 1925 World Series and got three future Hall of Famers out to clinch the World Series.
It’s as emotional a list as anything.
In short, Bearden’s post season trumped Cliff Lee’s Cy Young in my eyes
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I can go either way. But two things: one Lee’s story is one of the most compelling in the history – that’s right I said history – of the Indians. And two: I’m very, very fond of Cliff.
Tell you what, when the Tribe win’s the WS behind Cliff’s two hit shut-out of the Cubs in game seven this year, we’ll talk.
by mauichuck on Mar 17, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m very, very fond of Cliff.
You don’t say.
Travis Hafner is overrated. Clarity is underrated. David Dellucci is David Dellucci.
by westbrook on Mar 17, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for reading...
Hey everyone. Thanks for reading my post.
I like taking suggestions as I did from Jay.
I made another change… a lot of people have been getting on me about NOT including Grady Sizemore.
Sorry Joe Carter… I switched them out.
Let me address the “Home Grown” debate regarding Satchel Paige and other Negro League players.
I made a decision to include them in Home Grown, even though as I wrote in the post, it was tough to imply that Satchel was the product of the Indans farm system.
I made the decision that I would consider their first major league organization as their original team. And this excluded other leagues including the Negro Leagues. I have Teddy Higuera, who played in the Mexican Leagues, in the Milwaukee home grown team.
I had Jackie Robinson and Don Newcombe and Roy Campanella as home grown Dodgers.
I don’t consider them nor Satchel to be free agent acquisitions because they were trying to catch on with any team (the way that minor leaguers playing for local leagues were trying to get their contract bought by a big league club).
Now it gets stickier because I include Japanese stars like Ichiro and Nomo under acquired. They were real free agents picking up a big paycheck and playing teams off of each other.
I know it might seem contradictory.
But hey… it’s my list!
Thanks for the write up
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 1:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for responding, and thanks for taking the time to do these lists in the first place.
I think the concern people have about acquisitions from the Negro Leagues being called “home grown” is a semantic issue. Something about the word “grow” implies that the organization adds value to the player by fostering his development… which would not seem to have been the case with the Indians and 42-year-old, already-a-star Paige. Seems like an extractive, free-agent type relationship to me.
There’s also probably a bit of concern that calling these players “home grown” denies the legitimacy of the Negro Leagues and the capacity of their coaches and organizations to foster some extraordinary players. I know this was not your intention, but some might take it that way.
by still ill on Mar 17, 2009 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I know
I know and tried to address in the actual post that while Paige qualifies as a home grown according to my rules, as I wrote
The definition of Home Grown and Acquired gets a little hazy sometimes despite my hard fast rules. I have put players who came over from the Japanese Leagues as acquired. I feel Ichiro Suzuki, Hideo Nomo et al were truly acquired via free agency.
Players from the Negro Leagues I considered to be homegrown because those players were trying to catch on with any team the way that an amateur player would.
That being said, Satchel Paige is the toughest test of that hard tested rule. He was already a legend, already a draw and well past his prime when he arrived with the Indians in 1948.
He was the product of no farm system.
And he made himself useful with a pair of complete game shutouts and he pitched briefly in the 1948 World Series.
I’ll stick with my rule and put him with the Home Growns… but we all knew no scout discovered Satchel. No farm system developed him.
He was an American icon who just happened to drop on the Indians lap.
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely. Your criteria and your explanation of them are perfectly reasonable. I was just trying to explain why some might recoil a bit at the “home grown” label for Doby and Paige, or at least why I did.
I wish I could think of a better label, but I can’t. :)
by still ill on Mar 17, 2009 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey...
It’s the best label I could come up with
I’m almost done with my Cubs post… then just 4 more to go
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 3:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I get where you’re coming from on this.
If you were only doing the Indians, you might put Paige and even Doby on the Acquried team. Since you want to make a single rule for all Negro League players, however, it makes more sense this way. I think the inference that the Negro League was less legit than the Japan League is hard to escape, however, even though I know you did not intend to imply that.
I think the rules could be a little more nuanced — for example, you could compare whether a guy played more games in his other pro league or in his MLB farm system — but it’s a little late in the series to go there, and keeping it simple has some appeal as well.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sully — great idea. I look forward to reading all of these. Thanks!
by JulioBernazard on Mar 17, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I made a mistake
I had Addie Joss in the acquired team
I am moving him to the home growns (got to give due to the Hall of Famers)
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 1:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
bad news for Charles Nagy
Nagy is out, Addie Joss in.
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair, Charles Nagy is great. His ERA is so easy to guess.
by I'd give my legs for Wegz on Mar 18, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
welcome to the roster Cliff Lee
He’s on the acquired rotation
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 2:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gazzi, but I gotta admit, Bearden had a hellova year in ’48.
by mauichuck on Mar 17, 2009 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I knew you’d have trouble arguing with Sully’s reasoning on that one.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I updated the table at the top of the article to reflect your changes. Let me know if I missed anything.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ALL-TIME HOMEGROWN ALL-TIME ACQUIRED
Victor C Shoppach
Toregas C Santana
Mills 1B LaPorta
Phelps 2B Valbuena
Peralta SS Asdrubal
Hodges 3B Marte
Brown LF Brantley
Crowe CF Sizemore
Francisco RF Choo
Garko DH Hafner
Fausto SP Lee
Laffey SP Westbrook
Huff SP Pavano
SLewis SP Reyes
Sowers SP Zachson
JLewis RP Wood
Perez RP Smith
Miller RP Betancourt
Sipp RP Meloan
Mujica RP Salas
Rivero IF DeRosa
Rodriguez IF Barfield
Head OF Dellucci
Gimenez U Carroll
by Brick. on Mar 17, 2009 10:25 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
meant to fix the heading to say “current.” and not all-time. stupid copy/paste.
by Brick. on Mar 17, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought that was the idea/joke. It isn’t as witty or presumptuous if you say current.
No, not you. Your helmet!
by PatBordersHelmet on Mar 17, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, please … DeRosa is getting the start over Marte.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No way, Marte is much more valuable — have you seen his minor league numbers? And those came at such a young age, too. Maybe you can elaborate on that topic, Jay.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 17, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are we talking long-term value here, or just this season?
Also! You are not one of the funny people.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, I’m not allowed to be funny? Since when?
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 17, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why — because I didn’t appreciate being told I wasn’t “one of the funny people”? I make jokes on here often, and respond to other people’s jokes with them, so I don’t know what that comment was supposed to mean.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 17, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“In my heart, I know I’m funny.”
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously, Jay, why are you being a jerk? I thought you wanted to encourage participation in your site, not make fun of people to get a few laughs.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 17, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve changed my mind.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You gotta have thick skin if you are going to survive in the rough world of the internet
by Roger Dorn on Mar 17, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know, I’ve been around here long enough for that. And I think I’ve “survived” just fine. But I don’t see why people need to be jerks for no good reason. I expect that from some people on here, but not the moderator.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 17, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. It’s my goal only to be a jerk for good reason.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, you really need it spelled out? I guess that kind of proves the whole point. You know, a joke is like a frog … you can dissect it, but it tends to die in the process. To paraphrase Will Ferrell, you were trying to be funny, and it just came out douchey. So I thought I should let you know that you should either be more selective or leave the chuckles work to others better suited. Everyone thinks that they have a good sense of humor.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do I have a bad sense of humor if I think Will Ferrell is overrated?
by Roger Dorn on Mar 17, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everybody seems overrated at the height of their success. I think he’ll turn out to be a lot more versatile than he may seem, as Bill Murray did.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s fair. I still think he is funny
by Roger Dorn on Mar 17, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. I thought he was great in Stranger than Fiction, even though I’m pretty tired of his act otherwise at the moment.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on Mar 17, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, I’m sorry you ddn’t think it was funny, but I don’t know why it had to turn in to this. I was making a joke about the amount of discussion about Marte on the site; maybe you didn’t find it so funny, but did you really have to put me down like this? Does it make you feel better to do that to other people?
I’ve made plenty of jokes in the past which other people have liked, so I’m not going to “leave the chuckles to others betters suited” because I think I’m suited just fine. I’m definately not the funniest guy on here, but I don’t lack a sense of humor. If you want to think otherwise, that’s your perogative.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 17, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t mean it to be such a profound put-down. Other than that, I think we’ve both said our piece.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys should form a road-show entitled “Who’s the Funny One?”
Signature to be named later.
by emd2k3 on Mar 18, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“No, I’m the dummy!”
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 18, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff, intentional or otherwise.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on Mar 17, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
appreciate a joke? finally. unfortunately you already struck out.
by Brick. on Mar 17, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t know that you weren’t allowed to be.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It makes the question of “which squad would you rather have” a lot easier.
by dgcambridge on Mar 17, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
alright you crazy Indians fans
I have to stop tinkering with the Indians roster.
I have the Cubs and Phillies up next
Lord knows THOSE fan bases aren’t picky!
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 10:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I hear Philly fans are quite reasonable when it comes to their sports teams.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 17, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So who are the most grievous omissions? And who are the most grievous inclusions?
I don’t mean where Sully made a mistake, but obviously with the stringent structure, this isn’t the best 50 Indians. If you were going to name the Top 50 Indians, who’s missing from this list, and who’d get booted off?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 1:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if this counts as a snub given the depth at OF, but I think it is easy to forget David Justice’s 3.5 very good seasons in Cleveland
by APV on Mar 17, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be interesting to do rosters based on “lifers” who spent the bulk of their careers with the Indians and “short-timers” who spent only a few seasons.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tony Pena over Johnny Romano – just not enough Eye-talians in the line up.
by mauichuck on Mar 18, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me put it to you another way … let’s say I wanted to put together a book, called 54 Great Cleveland Indians …
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 18, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s on there. Are you saying he shouldn’t be?
by dgcambridge on Mar 17, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im saying he should be on the list. His career wOBA is 400! 1936…
by I'd give my legs for Wegz on Mar 17, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any love for Andre Thornton? He outhit Snyder, and for longer, but alas, no glove to speak of.
by dgcambridge on Mar 17, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You’re right, I suppose he deserves a thought. When you think of the Indians in the 80’s, he’s one of the first to come to mind.
by Buckeye Brad on Mar 17, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I went with Eddie over Andre
I weighed it heavily.
I even had the Thornton card picked out that I was going to use.
by SullyBaseball on Mar 19, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
An interesting list would be the 50 greatest Indians Gabe Paul gave away.
Signature to be named later.
by emd2k3 on Mar 17, 2009 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Rec for including the tilda on Pena. I have no idea how to do that.
by jhon on Mar 17, 2009 5:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Get a Mac.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Regional and language settings” in Windows Control Panel.
by still ill on Mar 18, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m embarrassed to report that I am typing from a Mac.
by jhon on Mar 18, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that case, “Option-N” for the tilde, and then “n” for the n…
¡¿Valbüéña?!
by Logodaedalus on Mar 19, 2009 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Indians fans
Sully here…
I am wrapping up Home Grown vs Acquired soon and will be putting together a book about alternate universes in baseball… basically “what ifs”
I’ve been working on “What if Steinbrenner bought the Indians instead of the Yankees?”
Will be interested in your take on where the Indians were going and what would have happened if a crazy meglomaniac hell bent on winning and using free agency before it became accepted if it was in Ohio.
(My outline for the alternate reality kept Nettles, Gamble, Chambliss and Tidrow in Cleveland… and eventually free agent Pete Rose to take the Ohio thunder away from Cincy.)
by SullyBaseball on Mar 17, 2009 9:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That’s an intriguing storyline for the 70’s, but I think in general, if Steinbrenner is anywhere but NYC, he runs his franchise into the ground. The great Yankees teams of last decade were put together by great baseball men while Steinbrenner was banished from the team for a few years. All he’s done since then is spend, and not all that wisely, and the spending has been fueled by the advent of the RSN and the Yankees’ unique abilities to drive revenue in that market. There is no club in a market the size of Cleveland that has done well, even for a short time, given a free-spending approach.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 17, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldda slit my wrist some where between ’75 and ’80.
by mauichuck on Mar 18, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eddie Murray at 1st base?
I know he’s a Hall of Fame 1st baseman, but he only played 45 games at 1st in his 2 1/2 seasons with the Indians.
The spot should go to someone who was actually a starting 1B for the team, like Mike Hargrove, Andy Thornton, or George Burns who was MVP in 1926.
by 27 on Mar 18, 2009 12:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s always interesting to see what prompts different people finally to register and post something — and wait out the 24-hour waiting period no less!
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 18, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My vote would be for Thornton over Murray.
Signature to be named later.
by emd2k3 on Mar 18, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In fairness, he had Hafner at 1B and Murray at DH, and I convinced him that Hafner had less business than anyone at 1B.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 18, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HA!
I took Jay’s advice!
I am cowardly hiding behind Jay
by SullyBaseball on Mar 18, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this gave me a chuckle. i also don’t mind the subject line at all when used in this manner.
by Brick. on Mar 18, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think most folks would agree that if it’s Hafner and Murray, it should be Hafner at DH and Murray at 1B.
Whether it should be Hafner and Thornton is a separate question. I might have said Thornton, but in general, you lay out good reasoning for most of your choices including this one. I only made a stink about what I thought was truly egregious, i.e., having Trosky in the starting lineup rather than Rosen, which further put Thome out of his true position. Truly great third basemen are pretty rare, actualy, and Rosen was one.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 18, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rosen’s my Dad’s all time favorite. In my Dad’s youth Rosen once gave him a lift in his convertible (I think the story is that he was traveling with his son, who might have identified my Dad, to a ball field).
Imagine being a 12 year old fanatic and having Grady pick you up in his convertible.
by jhon on Mar 18, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Knowing Sizemore, it probably would be the exact same one Rosen was driving.
by mauichuck on Mar 19, 2009 2:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t remember this story. I do remember the time Dad saw Jimmy Hendrix in a limo after a concert, and Hendrix nodded to him.
by joeee on Mar 19, 2009 3:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s one of the handful of stories he’s ever been willing to leak firsthand, and he has told it at least several times. Ask Dad. Funny that I don’t remember your story.
by jhon on Mar 19, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just checked your time stamp. You must be hallucinating.
by jhon on Mar 19, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, ask Dad if he can name a few of the all-time great Indians. Maybe he has a better sense of who should be on this list but isn’t.
by jhon on Mar 19, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that struck me as a little strained.
by Voltaire on Mar 18, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Talk to Jay
I had Eddie at DH and Hafner at 1B
I deferred to Jay on that one
by SullyBaseball on Mar 18, 2009 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, like Jay said above, if it’s between those two players Jay made the right call. I’m talking about Murray’s inclusion at all.
by Voltaire on Mar 18, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand but..
I understand questioning about Eddie Murray… especially because you could include Thornton.
And I address this in the actual piece.
My main rationale was Eddie was the best player in the first post season series for the Indians since 1954 and his single won the Indians first World Series game since 1948.
And I believe his veteran prescence was critical to the formation of that team full of young sluggers.
If I put Thornton there, it would be a fine choice and I’d sleep soundly.
I decided to go Murray.
I still sleep soundly
by SullyBaseball on Mar 19, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what he isn’t tell you- in an early draft he had Herbert Perry at 1B… the NIGHTMARES!
by Ryan Kelsey on Mar 19, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Put Herb Perry in the Hall of Fame!
He was clutch
by SullyBaseball on Mar 20, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sully, we’d love for you to stick around, but you have to figure out the no-subject thing. Note that every other post in this thread does not start with a bold line.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Mar 20, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rick Manning
How can you not have Rick Manning on this list for Outfielders. The man was a multiyear gold Glove winner and him and Duane Kuiper were about the only reasons to watch the team in the late 70’s early 80’s
by Scorpions on Mar 27, 2009 3:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
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