Gammons on Developing Young Talent
Talks about a few different teams around the league.
"In Cleveland, in an economically depressed area whose state has lost hundreds of thousands of jobs in this century, the Indians have averaged 87 wins a year the past four seasons, tying Boston for the league lead in wins in 2007.
We have to focus on our young players," said Indians GM Mark Shapiro. "We know what our budget restrictions are. We have to scout and develop and make good decisions."
Thus, the Indians have their self-developed players like Jhonny Peralta, Victor Martinez, Fausto Carmona, et al. They have made extraordinary trades for talent out of other organizations, like Grady Sizemore, Cliff Lee, Shin-Soo Choo, Kelly Shoppach and Asdrubal Cabrera. With all their young players and a relatively lower payroll, they were able to add two modest but significant additions in the offseason: Kerry Wood and Mark DeRosa.
Perhaps no teams showcased more young talent this spring than the Indians and Marlins. By the end of this season, it's conceivable that the Indians can bring in catcher Carlos Santana, outfielders Michael Brantley, Matt LaPorta and Trevor Crowe and third baseman Wes Hodges as contributors.
almost 3 years ago
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I’d hope that throughout the course of the season, we were able to keep Santana in the minors. If we bring him up one of bad scenarios has unfolded:
1. We’re not contending and one of the other catchers is hurt ala 2008.
2. We’ve traded one of the other catchers – most likely because either we’re not contending and get an offer we can’t turn down or we are contending but are trading from strength because we have a desperate need (either due to injury or positional collapse).
3. Shoppach is hurt and we need Victor’s production at first because we don’t have three hitters that can produce between BenFran, Delluci, Garko, LaPorta, and Hafner AND Santana seems more able to produce than other rookie options at LF/1B/DH.
4. We’re contending, Victor is hurt, and Shoppach is terrible and Toregas/Gimenez are unavailable or terrible
Is that it?
Carmona for Cy Young 2009
5. Santana ops’es 1.000 at every level and begins breathing fire in the batter’s box forcing his way into the lineup during sept.
As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.
by bigbrabbs on Apr 1, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
6. Indians clinch division August 1st. September is used to rest starters.
by gte619n on Apr 1, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Folks should remember that Santana is a semi-polished third baseman, too. It’s conceivable that they call him up to bolster the lineup, pushing DeRosa into the outfield or a super-sub role while leaving Shoppach at catcher and Victor at 1B.
We could also switch catchers every inning, just to confuse the other team.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Apr 1, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I was just posting a scenario for Santana getting to the majors that was less depressing than danvail’s listed options. I think it is equally feasible.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Yeah, I think in fact he’s only been a catcher for two years.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
That option would entail either some combination of failure and/or injury to a starter at a different position, possibly including any OF position or 3B, 2B, or SS.
How is this different?
Carmona for Cy Young 2009
Ugh, I wrote a response to this and lost it. Quickly, our lineup is not so full of All Stars that there has to be a major problem for a hard-charging prospect to break in. If one of our prospects gets off to a Bruce/Braun type of start, and the club believes it, they will make room. If Grady gets replaced by a kid, something has gone horrible wrong. Otherwise, I’m not so sure. And DeRosa adds a look of flexibility in moving things around.
This whole line of thought assumes that Santana would be our best hitting prospect available. While there’s a small chance that the offensive prospects above Santana (in expected MLE OPS) progress normally and Santana absolutely busts out, surpassing them all, the far more likely means for this assumption to come about is that those prospects are either already in use or flat-lining. Either of which involves a large and depressing quantity of failure or injury.
In fact, in order for the Indians FO to move an elite catching prospect who can handle catching to 3B or OF, the devastation that would have had to occur would be, at a minimum, depressing. We have two well-entrenched players who could start at 3B in Peralta and DeRosa, along with a guy Wedge is clearly comfortable allowing to play 3B for extended bouts in Carroll, and finally Barfield who is listed as a backup at 3B.
Think of what would have to happen in order for Shapiro to say, “screw the development at catching, we need Santana at 3B NOW.” It’s completely uncharacteristic. I think most of the avenues that would lead to this line of thought are so far-fetched that they’d more often than not lead to scenarios where we aren’t even contending.
Again, if we just wanted to bolster the lineup due to a one man injury or struggles at the plate by a few players, there are quite a few other options that would need to be exhausted prior to changing Santana’s position (again). Even then, that none of the other options panned out would be depressing in and of itself.
Carmona for Cy Young 2009
You’re right, this is all unlikely, no doubt about it. We’re just playing with the idea.
Santana is not our best prospect bat right now. He’s our second best. I think you’re underselling him a bit. This isn’t about a 3b patch, but just acknowledging that if Santana takes a significant step forward, he could be one of the top 4 or so hitters on the team. And he’s the right age to do it.
I don’t want him to move though. Hopefully he continues to improve at catcher and at the plate, and we use our depth to fix other problems.
Better than Mills? Maybe.
Enough so to scrap the idea of him as a catcher (where his bat is much more valuable? No way.
Also, my whole point is that in no way is the scenario that drives him onto 3B for the 2009 Indians much if any less depressing than the scenarios listed where he lands at C for the 2009 Indians.
Carmona for Cy Young 2009
Trying to think who the Tribe brass would (should?) let play through a tough start even with a stellar start from one of the kids at AAA. I’m thinking Grady, Jhonny, Victor, and DeRosa. Choo and Hafner may have a longer leash than the remainder of the team, though I think that assumes they can’t find a way for Hafner to get on the DL if he struggles mightily again.
They did give Dellucci 336 ABs last year, though. So who knows.
Il faut d'abord durer.
Right. The leash has to be pulled from above (Shapiro). Shapiro won’t hesitate to DFA or demote or otherwise rid the 25 man of most. Now, if its a guy who can’t be sent down, DFA would be too extreme (i.e. there is too much contract left or upside), and can’t figure a way to DL him, then its up to Wedge.
What I’m saying is, Dellucci got 336 ABs. But Michaels got 58.
Well, Michaels got 494/267/58 in 06/07/08, where he managed OPS+ of 85/87/73 (all while protected). The Indians didn’t pull him after 58 ABs, they pulled him after two years and 58 ABs.
Carmona for Cy Young 2009
Right… but the contract situation made it a much different decision in 08. He fell into that category of players that had Shap hand-tied. But in 08, he was no longer in that category. Same with Dellucci this year. He’s on the DL now, and when he gets back, if its apparent he won’t contribute this year, Shapiro has nothing to restrict him from DFAing him.
Basically guys with options left, guys in the last year of their contract, and guys that have an “injury” have a naturally shorter leash than healthy players with no options in the middle of multiple years of team control. Dellucci has moved from one category to the other, just as Michaels before him. Also new to the short leash club this year is Masa.
I’ve wondered how we’ll get Santana AAA playing time. Demote Toregas again? And then what does Giminez do, play the outfield?
by fleerdon on Apr 2, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions
You don’t play catchers every day at catcher, so it’s easier to share time. Gimenez is slated to play three times a week at catcher, leaving 3-4 for Toregas. If Santana’s play demands mid-season promotion, I imagine Toregas would get domoted and Gimenez would drop to playing at catcher only twice a week. But it really depends on a lot of other factors.
It also would help to clear more time at DH, i.e., not to have all these extra non-starters like Aubrey and Marte hanging around.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Apr 2, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
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