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Around SBN: More Televised Winter Baseball, Please

Trade Cliff Lee! Fire Wedge! Promote LaPorta! Sell! Sell! Sell!

It's a steamy Monday morning, and what better way to spend it than by pondering the panic, debunking the latest fake controversies, and whorishly driving traffic?

Transactions:  Cliff Lee might get traded someday, maybe

Once again, a legitimate news source does some lazy "reporting" about idle speculation, and let the scurrying begin!  This one comes from CBS's Danny Knobler, and boy, it is a pretty dumb story:

  • Talking about trading a front-line starter, two weeks into the season?
  • The whole "Lee looks off" story arrived a week or two late, right after Lee out-dueled C.C. (sort of) to get the "Win" and give the Yankees a home-grand-opener de-pantsing.
  • It doesn't take an inside source to say that the Indians will listen to offers on Lee if the Indians fall out of the race, the same as most front offices would do.  They traded Colon in 2002 and Sabathia last year.  Duh.  This is a story?

  • "I think they'd love to trade him" — so says an "official" "familiar" with the Indians.  I think this guy would love to think that the Indians would love to trade him.  Where's the beef?

  • It doesn't take a genius to see the potential parallel with Colon, who was traded in the last guaranteed year of a multi-year deal, with a very reasonably priced club option for the following season.  Immensely valuable asset.

  • It might, however, take just a smidgeon of observation or insight to note the key difference, which is that the Indians don't need to rebuild next year.  The Indians' upper minors were at their most barren state in a decade back in 2002, but their upper minors in 2009 couldn't be more loaded.
  • Ditto, observing the real parallel, which is between Lee at the end of 2009 and Sabathia at the end of 2007.  Shapiro knew full well that Sabathia would probably walk one year hence, but from all public statements, and even reading between the lines, the Indians never seriously considered trading C.C. prior to his walk year.  The key fact being that this is not Lee's walk year; 2010 is.  Cliff may not be quite the franchise tentpole (or tent model) that C.C. was, but he's close enough as far as this subject goes.

In other words, with a strong core of talent in the majors and upper minors, the Indians' recent history suggests that they will not be particularly inclined to trade Lee if they fall out of the race.  They will listen to offers — sure, of course — and dare teams to make them an offer they can't refuse, a la Eduardo-for-Asdrubal, Casey-for-Carlos, Einar-for-Travis.  But they will also place a lot of value on keeping Cliff in the fold for one more run in 2010 — knowing all the while that they can still trade him next July if they want.

Bottom line, Knobler "reported" only things that were obvious and not news, and he failed to bring any real thought to bear on his flimsy subject.

Analylsis:  Slow starts 'r bad, m'kay?

Naming no names, one popular canard* making the rounds lately is that (a) we have another slow start on our hands, (b) Wedge always does this, [c] we've had three slow starts in four years and only recovered once, (d) FIRE WEDGE!

* I don't really know what the word "canard" means, but this seems right.**

** No, I'm not going to start doing Posterisks all over the place, but I just felt like trying it out one time.

First question I have for the outburstors is ... why is it Eric Wedge who has the slow-start tendency?  Why isn't it the pitching coach, hitting coach or GM?  Maybe intermixed among all the Indians' fancy player evaluation methods lies a hidden correlation with slow-starting players.  ("OMG!  SLOW-STARTING PLAYERS ARE THE NEW MARKET INEFFICIENCY!!!!!")  Maybe the indians' highly professionalized, slow and steady approach works well over 162 but not as well over the first 12 of the 162.  I mean, they dumped notoriously slow-starting Andy Marte and favored famously hot-starting Ben Francisco, what more do you want?

Star-divide

I don't know that these guys weren't well prepared to play by their manager.  I do know that two of our slowest starters went to the WBC (three if you count Weglarz), and a third (Francisco) just isn't all that good.  I also know a few guys who certainly seemed well enough prepared to start the year:  Martinez, Hafner, Sizemore, Choo (hitting anyway), Garko, Asdrubal.

I also think — but don't know — that a pitcher's first appearance of the season means very, very little.  That is, no one appearance means all that much for the rest o the season, but I bet if you studied it, you'd find that the correlation between a pitcher's first appearance of the season and his season-long performance is even weaker than it is for any other one appearance.  Again, i don't know it, haven't ever seen any research on it.  I just think it.  Maybe I'll ask the BtBS guys to look into it.  Bottom line, Cliff and Carl's first starts mean almost nothing to me — I believe that they are, ultimately, less meaningful than our lineup's 22-run outburst against the Yankees, which was not terribly meaningful.

Does another slow start probably mean that we're sunk?  Of course not.

  • Did a slow start in 2008 sink us?  No.  What sunk us was losing four key players who had produced something like 15 runs above replacement the year before.  If we don't lose those guys, then not only is the slow start mitigated a little, but we almost certainly end up in a dogfight with the White Sox and Twins, who after all only beat us by a measly seven games when all was said and done.
  • Did a slow start in 2007 sink us?  No, because we didn't have one.
  • Did a slow start in 2006 sink us?  Yes and no.  The big culprit in 2006 was infield defense.  Was Wedge responsible?  I think it's fair to say "yes" on this one -- the drop-off from the end of 2005 to the start of 2006 was pretty incredible.  Still, was Wedge supposed to anticipate Belliard's D falling off a cliff?  Or Jhonny's eyesight?  And was it his fault all he had was Broussard and Boone on the corners?  Still, when you lose your division by 18 games, your problems were a lot more profound than having a slow April.
  • Did a slow start in 2005 sink us?  Yes.  Journeyman hitters froze up pretty solid for the first two months, and it took awhile for our young talent to start carrying the club.  But our bigger problem was a hot start by the White Sox — by Game 19 in 2005, we were already down 7.0 games.  That is a lot more than 3.5.  The size of the hole is determined by more than just our own digging, and it's the GB number that really counts.  The 2005 club arguably was our best team overall since 1996.

The 2005 season offers an even more instructive lesson than "don't get off to a slow start and get bulldozed by a club on a huge hot streak."  That lesson is:  "Don't lose a bunch of games to a key divisional rival."  Against common opponents, the 2005 Indians were three games better than the 2005 White Sox.  Head-to-head, however, the Indians dropped 14 out of 19 games.  Now, you could argue, we lost seven games of ground in those first 19 games in April, and we lost the division by six games.  That is true.  But I think it's more significant, or at least more instructive, that we gave away 9 games in the standings playing head-to-head.

So here we are with another slow start, and the question is, will it kill us?  The answer, I think, lies in two key questions:  One, is the team fundamentally strong, or at least as strong as we thought it was?  I think the answer is "yes" -- some parts are underperforming and others overperforming, but basically, the roster is about as good and bad in all its various pieces-parts as I thought it was coming in. It is perhaps disorienting to look at a 7–12 team and say, I think it's a good team, but it's not really out of the ordinary in baseball.  Maple Street Press recently reprinted an article on this very subject.  

Two, has another team jumped out to a huge lead, which truly defines the size of the hole?  Clearly, no — you wouldn't throw in the towel on a 3.5-game deficit in August, so how can it make any sense to do so in April?  Sky Kalkman illustrated this pretty clearly in a recent article simply by updating the CHONE projections, one week into the season.  It represents the reality of what's already happened, win-loss results, and also our current best estimates of what will happen — which are simply not all that different than they were three weeks ago.  (The article is one week old, but the division has not changed much since.)  CHONE still sees the Indians winning the division — but it is an ever increasing dogfight, and even when the season started, our edge was never more than one or two surprising individual performances or injuries away from being fairly capsized.  But we're not sunk yet — honestly — and there really aren't any individual "must wins" -— although I admit that we'd better start winning some series against key rivals.

Analysis:  LaPorta should be called up now, damn the consequences, FTW!  FTW!  ROMNSHFLOLFTW!

I want to tell you that this is right.  I want to tell you that both Francisco's numbers and LaPorta's numbers over three weeks are Incredibly Meaningful, and that no potential expense should be spared to bring the fairly young projected stud to the big leagues.  But that would not be truthful.  Here are some facty things to consider:

  • Dude, it's only three weeks.  I Want To Believe, yes, but it's only three weeks.
  • LaPorta was projected by PECOTA to produce 15.8 runs above replacement at the plate this season, just under an 800 OPS.  (Yes, I'm going to ignore the defensive projection, which lacks credibility.)  Even an optimistic projection has him making perhaps a three-win difference over the course of the season.
  • Incidentally, only 22 outfielders in all of MLB were worth three marginal wins or better in 2008, so if LaPorta is worth that much, he'll not only be hitting his 80° projections per PECOTA and CHONE, he'll also have jumped from Double-A to being the best outfielder on 10-12 big-league teams, and second-best on almost all of them.
  • Three marginal wins over a season is one extra win per 54 games.  (I know, you love it when I bring the Big Math.)
  • There are 38 games between now and June 5, the point after which there are no significant service time issues.***
  • So we're down to roughly two-thirds of a marginal win — if LaPorta's current numbers are "real" and he significantly outperforms projections — and also assuming that Francisco/Dellucci/Crowe can't be deployed to anything better than replacement-level effect.

***Incidentally, I don't buy for a second the idea that the Indians don't really care about service time.  It will never be the number-one, key consideration in a critical situation.  But for our best prospects, and especially for position players, ignoring service time is tantamount to throwing away money, and this organization really does not do that when it can be foreseen.  Look at how many of our players ended up on the "good half" of the service time board, between 43 games and 128 games:  Cliff 100, Victor 114, Grady 56, Jhonny 118, Betancourt 79, Garko 91, Francisco 49, Sowers 128, Choo 119, Lewis 52, Barfield 112.  Are we really supposed to believe that when they let Scott Lewis take the fifth starter job away from Aaron Laffey, they didn't realize that Laffey's arbitration would slide back another year if he spent another 4-5 weeks in the minors?  Really?  Now look at the exceptions — Carmona, Shoppach and Perez chief among them — and if you go back, you can see clearly that in each case, there was a clear need at the big-league level, that calling them up and keeping them up were black-and-white decisions.  When there's a grey area, service time counts — as it should.

Emotionally, we suspect that LaPorta is our best option right now, and we want him here, right now.  But good GM'ing isn't just about evaluating players well, it's about estimating their value effectively.  Good analysis (to return to another recent topic) is about divorcing yourself from the drama of immediate events — the day-to-day narrative — and staying focused on the big picture.  The reality is, LaPorta could struggle over the next month, and Francisco could go on a tear — it's not like he hasn't done it before.  The reality is, we don't even have a spot on the 40-man for LaPorta.  The reality is, as much as we've cringed at Francisco's defense, it's very likely that he's a lot better out there than LaPorta — and despite one crummy series, the reality is that our pitching needs more defensive support than run support.

The reality is that the cost of calling up LaPorta now could be nothing, and it could be north of $15 million.  I think I'd put the over-under at around $6 million.  And the reality is, we should not pay $6 million, on a wish and a small-sample prayer for two-thirds of a marginal win.

Comment 107 comments  |  3 recs  | 

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First question I have for the outburstors is … why is it Eric Wedge who has the slow-start tendency? Why isn’t it the pitching coach, hitting coach or GM?

Well, I don’t want to be considered a “outburstor”, but from what I heard reported by a local radio host who attended the little “state of the union” thing Shapiro did a week or so ago was that Wedge has ideas about changing some things around in spring training to address the slow starts. So I hear an admission that there is a problem and I hear that Wedge is volunteering to make some changes that are under his control that will hopefully result in better prepared players come the beginning of the season.

Wedge is the figurehead of the coaching staff, but you are correct that it doesn’t mean that the coaches are without blame. Its just that they report to Wedge so he has influence over them and can encourage them to change things if he sees unsuccesful results.

In any case, at this point I do consider the slow starts of his teams to be a legitimate criticism of Wedge’s.

by hans on Apr 27, 2009 12:46 PM EDT reply actions  

i’m still blaming the advanced scouting department.

by Brick. on Apr 27, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I blame it on the rain, oh yeah

by APV on Apr 27, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s like Godwin’s Law for LGT – if a subject is talked about long enough, a humorous image will be posted which will end discussion on the topic.

by Voltaire on Apr 27, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe Shap mentioned this issue publicly during spring training – that “slow starts” was something that he specifically addressed with Wedge during the offseason. My take was that some of the changes you refer to were in fact implemented this year already.

I also consider the issue to be under Wedge’s responsibility. He is charged with getting the team ready to play by opening day, and too often it simply isn’t. It’s true its a long season, but taking a month or so to get everybody up to speed and the team competitive doesn’t make it any shorter.

by mcrose on Apr 27, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

In those interviews Shapiro seemed to express some question as to how Wedge could have influenced the teams to better season starts. Didn’t he say the Tribe was “studying” the question, and hadn’t arrived at any conclusion?

My own view is that shit happens: The players get hurt or maybe you have to live through a few games where they are rehabbing in place; maybe they hit or maybe they don’t in some particular series; perhaps the starters experience some weird BABIP allowed over a small sample size of 20 or so games… I’m open minded, but I just don’t see how any of that is Wedge’s “fault”. These issues become his problem maybe, since he’s the man on the spot who has to fill out the line-up card every night, but I’ve never ever heard anyone argue the guy isn’t willing to experiment with his line-up. He has go with the guys they give him, and usually he’s pretty creative about it.

by MTF on Apr 27, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, I think Shapiro said they studied it, which I presume means run a few trends—P/PA or BABIP or something—to see if there is anything significant. I think the greatest signifier for slow starts—though it doesn’t seem to affect Detroit or Chicago as much—is crappy spring weather and MLB’s insistence in having the Indians play a lot of home games in April. But that may not even be demonstrably true, and surely didn’t help in Texas.

I think this team is a delicate one psychologically. Perhaps this is a reflection of its manager, but when things go wrong, the team seems to become discouraged quickly. Maybe this is ridiculous, but I think when a team so often appears in a funk a bit of dimestore psychologizing is permissible.

by odradek on Apr 27, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think so much that they are fragile psychologically. I think that they just press and try too hard. I suspect that what they hear from Wedge is that they have to keep grinding it out regardless and they just keep pressing and get tighter and it becomes a sort of death spiral when they’re doing poorly.

by woodsmeister on Apr 28, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was thinking that they may change some things around in spring training in regards to what they put players through in preparation for the season. At least this is what I thought when I heard about (albeit second from Brinda on WKNR a few days ago).

by hans on Apr 28, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

While I generally dislike knee jerk reactions, I do think there is some merit to the idea that Wedge should be fired. Someone is going to have to take the blame for the team underachieving. Everyone seems to think, and I do as well, that Shapiro has done a pretty good job with stocking the roster. Firing the manager, to me, seems like an appropriate thing to do if you believe that the team is not playing up to its potential.

by Cols714 on Apr 27, 2009 12:58 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s only been 19 games, and firing the manager based on that kind of sample size is something only jackass organizations do. Unless you’re arguing that Wedge’s team underachieved last year. I blame the manager for lots of things, but would probably stop short of blaming him for injuries.

by FredOx on Apr 27, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I understand that the manager doesn’t control a lot of the game and the differences between a great manager and a lousy one aren’t all that. But at some point someone has to be held accountable.

by Cols714 on Apr 27, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Holding someone accountable for the sake of finding someone to hold accountable is the definition of a knee jerk reaction.

by world dictator on Apr 27, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

As well as the definition of McCarthyism.

by afh4 on Apr 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK, but at what point is it OK to fire the manager? When the team is playing badly, it will be seen as a knee-jerk reaction. But so what? Sometimes making a change just for the sake of change is not a bad thing.

by Cols714 on Apr 27, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not for firing Wedge, but just to be clear: are you saying that we didn’t have underachievers last year? just injuries?

by dgcambridge on Apr 27, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I still feel Wedge should be allowed to manage in 2010, regardless of this year’s outcome.

But he has made some very poor, (minor) late-inning decisions. Probably not enough to change the outcomes of games .. but it has been very out of the ordinary and disconcerting. Especially from a guy who has continually improved since 2004.

In the end it comes down to the players. We have followed this team closely enough to realize that they go through LONG stretches of team-wide offensive inactivity. Then followed by torrid months where they hit everyone. It’s maddening, but it has happened for the past 2 seasons and very likely to happen this year again.

by Toxicadam on Apr 27, 2009 1:21 PM EDT reply actions  

exceptions — Carmona

OMGGGG we neeed a closer.

Oops.

Ben Francisco: An Outfielder only on baseball cards and roster sheets.

by westbrook on Apr 27, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions  

As a leading canardier (although i’m not inclined to trace the logic all the way down to FIRE WEDGE), obviously the 3.5 is what’s keeping me off the ledge. Mentally, maybe we should recalibrate our goals to being .500 on May 31—which would basically be where the Indians stood in 2005. At that point—following the old Billy Beane philosophy—you start tinkering. LaPorta’s service time issues go away, and we’d have a better idea of whether and what changes would have to be made in the rotation and the bullpen.

Look, to some extent people are overreacting. But the truth is this—if the Indians fail to make the playoffs, it’s much, much, much more likely to be by a margin of less than five games, not 18. These games in April—these games where they’re running out a replacement-level left fielder—they count. LaPorta’s service time considerations are rightly given as much weight as you give them. I’m not sure what value there is in shielding Wedge (yes, and/or his coaching staff) from what I still see as valid criticism about preparation. But playoff revenue has value as well. If they miss the playoffs by one game, or by, say, three, we’re going to remember the 3/4 of a marginal win we lost, and the 7-12 start by a team that had the talent to finish 80-63.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions  

If they miss the playoffs by one game, or by, say, three, we’re going to remember the 3/4 of a marginal win we lost

1 – 3/4 = 1/4
3 – 3/4 = 2 1/4

by Brick. on Apr 27, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

I rounded up.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

there’s no rounding in baseball. except when running the bases. and CC’s belly.

by Brick. on Apr 27, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

people really should rec more

by Voltaire on Apr 27, 2009 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

BenFran is pretty far down the list of reasons for the bad start.

by mcrose on Apr 27, 2009 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

it’s much, much, much more likely to be by a margin of less than five games, not 18

In 40 years of divisional play, we have won or lost the division by less than six games exactly once: in 2000, when we lost the division by five games. We did miss the Wild Card by 1.5 games in 2000 and 2005, but it’s fairly unlikely that we’ll be competing for the Wild Card this season. I’m not saying it couldn’t happen, but it’s very rare that it happens.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree that if you weigh “3/4 of a marginal win” versus $6 M, then you keep the money. Fine.

But I’m with MTF here, I hope you’re not telling me “3/4 of a marginal win” is insignificant in of itself. Should we just put in on the list of insignificant decisions. Who cares if Crowe gets an extra at-bat per week over Garko? How much does a 7th reliever really pitch? OK, fine, we don’t pay $6 M for an inch of improvement. But either we heal as a team or we are going to crumble,inch by inch, play by play till we’re finished. We are in hell right now, gentlemen believe me and we can stay here and get the **** kicked out of us or we can fight our way back into the light. We can climb out of hell. One inch, at a time. One half second too slow or too fast
and you don’t quite catch it. The inches we need are everywhere around us. They are in ever break of the game every minute, every second. Matt LaPorta is an inch, and on this team, we fight for that inch. On this team, we tear ourselves and everyone around us to pieces for that inch. We claw with our fingernails for that inch. Cause we know when we add up all those inches that’s going to make the f’n difference between winning and losing, between LIVING and DYING

by dgcambridge on Apr 27, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

I’m with this guy. Also – we are great at pricing past contributions, but, and I don’t know much, I think refining your precision of future performance of a human being to the tenths-scale for accuracy is ludicrous. By these measures, can’t we QED prove that the Kerry Wood signing was a ridiculous waste?

by joeee on Apr 27, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Only if we ignore leverage.

The win-tenths-scale is essentially the runs scale. Is it ludicrous to estimate projected contributions according to runs? It is understood that these are all projections and estimates. I won’t speak for Dave, but my point was that if you want to estimate the difference between LaPorta and whoever-else through June 5, it is definitely a fraction of a win. It may seem like he would help us win every night, but those numbers come out the way they do for a reason, and, you know, the balance sheets all add up.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think it’s a salient point – and the way you phrased it definitely makes me rethink my “wtf Leport NOW” mentality, but it’s easy to get lost in numbers – and as dgcambridge says, one clutch hit can be the difference between a win or loss – which can be the difference between getting a series and not. I don’t think LaPorta is mission critical now, but a few more 7-1 scores + Francisco’s suckitude and I say ta hell with it, bring him in.

by joeee on Apr 27, 2009 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right. Which is why you’re not the GM.

LaPorta is very, very unlikely to transform the lineup. He’s only one man, and a rookie at that.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

We’ve made last-minute roster changes in ‘07 – not to transform the lineup, no one said that, but to improve it. I’m not saying he’s a saving grace, I’m just trying not to underestimate his potential contribution.

by joeee on Apr 27, 2009 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would be difficult to underestimate it over 38 games.

I don’t think we made any lineup changes in the first few months.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here’s a good question: What would have to happen for you to think Wedge should be fired?

by Cols714 on Apr 27, 2009 1:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Oh, and this isn’t aimed at anyone in particular, I’m just curious about what people here think.

by Cols714 on Apr 27, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

if we stay healthy the whole year but finish under .500

by Brick. on Apr 27, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

that works, but this team healthy would be disappointing at 82-80, too.

Ben Francisco: An Outfielder only on baseball cards and roster sheets.

by westbrook on Apr 27, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fine, I’ll bite.

I’m generally of the mind that stability is good, so my default instinct is to keep the manager. I think Wedge is doing as well as anyone else would, not just in this season, but over his career with the Tribe. One has to have both the short view (one season) and the long view in mind.

A manager should be dismissed if he 1) consistently misuses players or 2) loses the confidence of many or most of the players on the team, or 3) is clearly at odds with the philosophy of the general manager. Obviously incompetence or inappropriate behavior would also suffice, but I don’t think anyone is arguing along these lines.

Numbers 2 and 3 don’t seem to be relevant right now, and Number 1 (misuse of players) is the greatest area for interpretation and blog fun. Sure, it is surprising to see Graffanino and Crowe in the same line-up on an afternoon, but all can be forgiven when a Sipp comes in and strikes out two Twins to help preserve the win. Have to give Wedge credit for what goes right if we are critical about what seems wrong.

by Deep South Ken on Apr 27, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tomo Ohka on the 40 man.

by afh4 on Apr 27, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

that would mean a bunch of injuries, in which case Soloff will be fired – not Wedge.

Ben Francisco: An Outfielder only on baseball cards and roster sheets.

by westbrook on Apr 27, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re too inside the box.

by afh4 on Apr 27, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

ok, he gets on the 40-man because Ohka finds Casey Blake’s photo collection.

Ben Francisco: An Outfielder only on baseball cards and roster sheets.

by westbrook on Apr 27, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

off topic, but why not play hafner yesterday instead of today? he’s 0 for his life against wakefield and lee is on the mound, so shoppach will be playing. maybe he just wants to do multiple days off in a row for hafner on a regular basis.

by Brick. on Apr 27, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions  

They seem to have a pretty set plan for him. I haven’t bothered to figure it out but I am confident there’s a plan.

Off the top of my head, it seems like they want him to play days in a row with built in days off. This is going to lead to some bad matchups but they’d rather let him play three games in a row then sit him for a day then to have him play three games in a week with a rest day between each one.

by afh4 on Apr 27, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

one of the announcers said wedge said he did a double day off a week or so ago to line him up against three righties in a row. so i thought match-up based decisions were in play. i could see him sitting again tonight.

by Brick. on Apr 27, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

I am just looking at what I wrote and how much does it say about me that my response is essentially: “Eh, Shapiro runs the team. I’m sure it’s rational. Whatever.”

by afh4 on Apr 27, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Day game after a night game would be my guess. If you’re concerned a guy might wear down by playing every day, then it’s probably a good idea to avoid having him start a game 14 hours after the last one ended.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

If anyone’s wondering, Jay’s still got his fastball.

Also, Wrong Kong Ballbag Village? That’s deep in the bag of tricks, mi amigo. Well done.

by afh4 on Apr 27, 2009 2:03 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s a favorite of mine.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the Weglarz WBC reminder. That’s taking me down to DEFCON 2.

by afh4 on Apr 27, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wegz is three years younger than LaPorta. He’s got time to have a couple kinks and work them out — especially if said kinks are only weeks or months in duration.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Incidentally, I like to pretend that that’s not an action photo, that’s just the position The Mayor likes to get into whenever he wants to do his best thinking.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 7:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like the dad from 10 Things I Hate About You on the inversion table.

/ducks.

by afh4 on Apr 27, 2009 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

I liked that movie the first time around, 20 years ago, when it was a John Hughes adaptation of a Shakepeare play, and they decided just to skip it and make Sixteen Candles instead.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can’t believe you wrote that whole piece about the slow start without even once using the word “Peralta.”

by rden on Apr 27, 2009 2:23 PM EDT reply actions  

I saw LaPorta make a diving catch on Saturday. He’s the next Franky G on defense.

Never mind that he probably should have caught it standing.

by CBusSteve on Apr 27, 2009 2:28 PM EDT reply actions  

ALL HAIL THE STATUS QUO!!

I don’t care about Wedge. The defense of Wedge is always the same: he doesn’t matter. He doesn’t hire the players, and he doesn’t play the game. And he either has no effect, or there is no way to reasonable evaluate his effect, on the players’ performance. YOU CAN’T FIRE ME FROM MY JOB! MY JOB IS MEANINGLESS! So yeah, I don’t like a few of his in-game decisions, but he’s mostly by the book. So I really don’t care. If Mark and the players are happy, might as well save the money.

by dgcambridge on Apr 27, 2009 2:58 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Sounds an awful lot like spin control.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Apr 27, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

I will grit my teeth and wait for LaPorta. The money is just too much.

Questions raised by the piece:

1. Really, what’s our thought on the Frisco/LaPorta defensive gap? Frisco looks more nimble, but he also looks like an idiot out there. If LaPorta’s defense is actually horrible, it changes everything.

2. I’d like to see the money breakdown spelled out a little. Back of the envelope: seems like $6 M is about right. That’s a $1.5 M bump on average for his super-2 year and the following 3 years.

3. The 40 man issue should be solved either through Miller’s 60 day stint or when Carroll comes back, no?

by dgcambridge on Apr 27, 2009 3:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Re: LaPorta’s defense.

We really don’t have much in the way of metric data on LaPorta’s defense. Minorleaguesplits publishes minor league UZR data for him, but he’s only really got 65% of a season in Huntsville last year (bad) and 25% of a season in West Virginia the year before (average) – not great data.

Scouting reports of him that I’ve seen have him ranging from horrible to average.

Seems like a guy who were he an everyday outfielder would range from average in a good year, to pretty awful (-15-20 runs) in a bad year. How that translates into how he “looks” out there on a day to day basis is anyone’s guess.

by APV on Apr 27, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

1. I would have thought the difference was considerate, but Francisco is changing my mind. I’d like to say that Frisco has more room to grow defensively than LaPorta, but the evidence suggests the opposite. Ben has had plenty of time to work on his outfielding and is hypothetically more athletic. LaPorta has only played the outfield for one year, so he may yet get somewhat better.

2. I mentioned this in another post. If LaPorta were promoted now and was a starter for most of the next two-plus years, he could get as much as $3.5 million in that first year. (The thoroughly mediocre Broussard got $2 million.) Then you have upwards of $10 million in spillover for the next three years, so if he reaches Super Two, you’re looking at a $10 million bonus over four years, at least. If he’s a total monster like Ryan Howard, he maybe gets $10 million in that first year, and the spillover is more like $20 million. That’s the high-side financial risk. The low-side risk is zero, because maybe he has to get demoted at some point and all of this becomes moot. I intended $6 million as sort of a weighted mean, but I’m kind of guessing on that.

3. Assuming we’re willing to release Lil Giraffe, yes. Good point. I do wonder if we’re willing to do that, though. I guess Valbuena (and even Barfield) hitting like crazy make that easier to do.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Is a missing component of this discussion the possibility of a long-term deal if LaPorta thrives in his first taste of MLB? The Indians have shown a propensity to dole out multi-year deals to players they see, early on, as part of their future, often buying up arbitration and even FA years.

Couldn’t the Indians make this whole service time/Super 2 argument moot by approaching it like the Rays did with Longoria or the way that the Brewers did with Braun, in that service time becomes less of an issue if a player plays his way into commanding multi-year deal attention?

If LaPorta does come up and succeed for the Indians, doesn’t the Indians’ track record for their young players (Grady and Fausto, namely) tell you that this Ryan Howard comparison or even the Ben Broussard comparison doesn’t add up because they’d be looking to give him a deal to lock in fixed costs for a fixed amount of time, attempting in the process to buy out his arbitration and (hopefully) a FA year?

Sure, the Boras factor plays a role, but I would think that the idea of a multi-year deal with LaPorta is something that the Polo Shirt Mafia has at least discussed.

Also, I’m not sure that this “nominal” difference between LaPorta and Frisco for 30 odd games is as marginal in terms of wins as you’re making it out to be, despite what the balance sheet says. I know that he’s just “one player” and a rookie at that, but the impact that Laffey has had on the rotation and that Sipp has had on the bullpen has been noticeable since their promotions.

Did it help us obviously win games that we wouldn’t have?
Who knows…but it makes the team better and more competitive as a whole, something that replacing Frisco/Crowe with LaPorta does today.

by The DiaTriber on Apr 28, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I am already accounting for the possibility of a multi-year deal. Multi-year deals don’t eliminate the difference between having and not having that first (fourth) year off arbitration; rather, the value of the deals take that year into account in rather obvious ways. I could go into great detail on this with lots of exhibits, but for an obvious comparison, just look at the second year of Jhonny’s deal (750K) and compare it with Carmona’s (2.75M). I think they were basically comparable talents, and the difference in their service time when those deals were done was … wait for it … 51 days. Jhonny then gets 10.25M over the next three years, while Carmona gets 11M over the next two years, so you can see the spillover effect pretty clearly, too.

So I would agree with you that that’s the missing piece … except that it’s not missing.

I do basically agree with you on Laffey and Sipp, but there are two key differences between pitchers and hitters in these considerations. The first is that the attrition/risk is so high on pitchers over multiple years that it doesn’t make too much sense to be overly concerned with when their walk year is … since everyone will be lucky if his career even lasts that long. To some extent, you could say the same thing for raw rookies with 0 service time and their arbitration date, if you wanted to stretch the point.

The second key difference between pitchers and hitters, and maybe a much more significant one, is the cumulative effect of having one more or one fewer effective pitcher on the staff. One more good reliever puts lets pressure on all the others, leads to less chance of overuse, etc. A starter who lasts one extra inning every five games has a similar effect, and both of them may indirectly influence a manager to pull a fatiguing starter one or two batters earlier. It doesn’t work quite the same way with hitters, though. One bad hitter does not fatigue the rest of the hitters; there is no real domino effect where the whole thing basically falls apart. It may sometimes seem like there is for a few games, and yes, it’s nice when one of your hitters takes a bunch of extra pitchers. But if you withhold a superior pitcher from your 25-man, you risk real damage to your pitching staff going forward, and the same really cannot be said for a hitter.

By the way, if you follow the logic of hitters vs. pitchers and cumulative effects, then you also start to get an idea why the Indians might favor the slick glove with the weak bat (Crowe) over the two-way mediocrity (Francisco … and arguably LaPorta in the short term). The slick glove might well save you a relief appearance, and when things are stretched, that can be a high-leverage savings that impacts multiple games. The only way to do that with the bat is to hit a home run that avoids extra innings.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 28, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

The only way to do that with the bat is to hit a home run that avoids extra innings.

That’s all LaPorta does. He’s like a cottage industry about it. He would have ended last night’s game and he will have would have ended the next game we lose close and late.

by NickFantana on Apr 28, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

But we didn’t go into extra innings last night.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 28, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s irrelevant. Matt LaPorta is really good.

by NickFantana on Apr 28, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

You two have probably seen this, but here are the numbers for the super-twos from this offseason. Cole Hamels was the only one to sign a multi-year deal (and for 3 years, which is interesting). Common sense would say that Hamels could have received even more $$$ through arbitration if he stayed at the same production level. But certainly the deal would have been for much less if Hamels was stuck near the minimum for 2009 (and year 1 arb for 2010 and so on).

Anyway, the average increase was about $1.7 M, but that includes a fair number of mediocre players. I’m starting to think the number could be closer to 10 M than 6 M.

by dgcambridge on Apr 28, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

I certainly get the money difference, but it looks like the difference between Fausto and Jhonny’s deals are about $2M to $2.5M a year. If you’re simply talking about adding $2M to $2.5M in payroll to a team every year for the next five to six years by making the team appreciably better in a month that may make or break the 2009 season, I don’t understand why you don’t do it.

That money could probably be better apportioned to add another piece down the line, but I guess it would be the bird in the hand argument – if LaPorta seems to be ready and plays the position of most need in terms of position players, he’s here…why worry about what you could do with that money in 2012?

Also, I get the domino factor for a starter or a reliever, but I’m not sure how you can summarily discount the impact of one hitter and what it can do to your lineup. Using your argument (that one hitter doesn’t really make that much of a difference), if you really feel that he’s going to contribute the same “two-way mediocrity…arguably in the short term”, what’s the point of promoting him at all, regardless of date?

by The DiaTriber on Apr 28, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Really, $10 M (over 4 years) for 1 win? That’s just doesn’t seem to add up. Or are you disputing one of those numbers?

by dgcambridge on Apr 28, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I’m looking deeper than that “1 win”, regardless of how the balance sheet lines up. I see an Indians’ team that faces a very real possibility of seeing their 2009 season being essentially over by June 5th if their struggles continue or if somebody else in their division gets hot.

The sense of urgency is building for me, and maybe it has more to do with my heart than my head, but I see LaPorta making the team better in an area that needs to be improved and can be done so immediately.

Does that improvement only equal 1 win over the course of every year?
I don’t know and I’m not going to try to understand that “balance sheet”, but if the panic button isn’t being pressed yet, at least more buttons need to be pressed to start winning these games.

by The DiaTriber on Apr 28, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Because if we had the money to spare, we would have signed one of a dozen under-priced free agents in the offseason. We could have signed Manny for $1 million per week, too, and lots of guys for a lot less than that.

Because if you spend money based on a “what the heck, he’s just sitting there” premise, you eventually end up unable to contend … in part because you have commitments that keep you from retaining your own players even through arbitration.

Because we want to be able to afford to lock up LaPorta and other top young players.

Also, I get the domino factor for a starter or a reliever, but I’m not sure how you can summarily discount the impact of one hitter and what it can do to your lineup. Using your argument (that one hitter doesn’t really make that much of a difference), if you really feel that he’s going to contribute the same "two-way mediocrity…arguably in the short term", what’s the point of promoting him at all, regardless of date?

I’m not dismissive of it, I just think it needs to be valued accurately and dispassionately, and the cumulative effect is very minimal (compared to what it is for a pitcher). The point of promoting LaPorta at all, regardless of date, is that when we promote him, it will be at a moment when we project that he is the best option for overall production — and at a sustainable cost.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 28, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

The point of promoting LaPorta at all, regardless of date, is that when we promote him, it will be at a moment when we project that he is the best option for overall production — and at a sustainable cost.

So, do you feel that LaPorta is the best option for overall production right now, but that the sustainable cost, spread out over those years, is what precludes the move?

Does that “sustainable cost” then happen on June 5th and not a day earlier or later?

by The DiaTriber on Apr 28, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think that he probably is the best option overall right now, and I think the marginal upgrade he provides probably about one-half of a win over 38 games.

Let me put it to you another way … the chance that he’s more than a one-win upgrade is clearly less than the chance that he’s no upgrade at all, and that’s true whether or not you want to throw WPA’s crazy ass into the math (because WPA cuts both ways for every scenario).

June 5 is my estimate based on my own estimate of 125 days as a number that’s safely shy of the Super Two arbitration cutoff. June 5 is almost definitely safe, May 31 is probably safe, May 26 might be safe. We don’t know the exact date (and won’t until after the 2011 season), and the Indians may see it as more like 130 or 128, I couldn’t really say. Thing is, though, if you guess a few days wrong, you lose the whole $6 million (or whatever it turns out to be).

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 28, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually, I’m realizing that my days-counting was off by a few … or maybe someone else got me confused about it …

The 125 days point actually is June 2. That is, if he’s called up to play on June 2 (start of @Min series) and remains in the majors, then he’ll finish the season with 125 days of service time, extremely unlikely to reach the arbitration threshold. If it’s May 19 (start of @KC series), he’d finish at 139, very good chance he’ll reach it at that point.

This is some scenario confusion here, too. If he’s called up and isn’t any good, then it doesn’t cost us anything because he’ll be sent back down. So it didn’t cost us anything, but it also didn’t gain us anything. If he’s called up and he’s very good, it will cost us a lot — but it may not make a real difference in the standings. That is, we could well end up paying millions just to finish a couple games closer in a losing race or a couple games further ahead in a winning race. So there is no scenario where LaPorta helps us makes the playoffs and it doesn’t cost us a huge amount of cash, but there are lots of scenarios where he doesn’t really help us but it still costs us a lot. Somewhere in between are a couple of scenarios where we pay a lot and also get a lot, but the chances that it all works out exactly that way are simply not that good.

I also never addresed the Boras question you originally posed. The answer basically is that all the numbers I’ve thrown out there have assumed the lockup deal. If you assume no lockup deal, as we probably should for any Boras client, then the dollars go up pretty dramatically.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 28, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

I wish the intricacies of financial obligations didn’t play such a role in these types of decisions. Obviously, they need to and weighing all of the scenarios is both logical and necessary, but for some reason it takes away some of that “fun” factor for me.

That is to say, I want to say “damn the torpedoes, give me LaPorta”, but the sheer volume of reasons not to outweigh what overwhelming warm and fuzzies that LaPorta in the lineup tonight against Penny would give me.

Because I would be warm and fuzzy to see him in the lineup, effectively blocking out that portion of my brain that keeps pulsating the number $6,000,000 for a night at least.

by The DiaTriber on Apr 28, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

It may seem like it’s fun for me, but it really isn’t.

What it does do is make it less aggravating, because I (at least think that I) have some understanding of what’s going on. If I didn’t, I’d be screaming for LaPorta, because, “What the hell, it couldn’t hurt!!!!!!”

This is sort of my key mission as someone who writes about the Indians. As Cleveland fans, we’re used to a vague feeling that we’re always getting screwed somehow. I hope that when other fans read what I have to say, that feeling becomes less vague.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 28, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’ve done a damn fine job making your point – TheDoor can wait.

by joeee on Apr 28, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Thanks for eloquently laying out the conflict for those of us struggling with the “damn the torpedoes” mentality. It’s frustrating when the baseball marketplace doesn’t just keep teams like Cleveland from acquiring elite players in their prime, but also restricts their ability to take advantage of talented young players still years away from their prime.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 28, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I hear ya on the “fun factor” thing. That’s why I try not to read too much into thse things. I scan to see jay’s bottom line to know whether it’s worth getting my hopes up or not, but I can’t deal with the intricacies.

I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 28, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

Keith: Guys, he could maybe be worth a win.
Chris: Maybe we can get away with 139.
Mark: Boras.
Keith and Chris together: Crap.
Chris: Ty F’ing Cobb, my ass. F’ing finger. If only Theo didn’t want Fausto, too.
Mark: Boras.
Chris: Crap.
Keith: Does this mean I have to go back to crunching the numbers on Sowers?
Mark: Keith!
Kieth: Fine, but I’m telling you, I’m going to get the same thing again.

by Brick. on Apr 28, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

It’s official. This is a fan fiction site.

by NickFantana on Apr 28, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Some fun with early stadnings, teams thought to be contenders that are 3 games or more out of first place:

Tampa Bay 6.5
Jackasses 4
Oakland 4
Angels 4.5
Mets 3
Cubs 3
Arizona 5.5

If the season ended today, the Pirates, Marlins, Blue Jays, and Mariners would be in the postseason. Ask yourself whether the baseball world has been turned upside down or not much can be conclusively determined after 19 games.

by ClarkM on Apr 27, 2009 3:25 PM EDT reply actions  

I was just about to post the same thing — I would be willing to bet that no more than one of the above mentioned first place (or WC, in the Pirates’ case) teams will actually make the postseason, and even one of them making the postseason would REALLY surprise me. Also, the Angels, Indians, and Rays will not all finish in last place.

by zempf on Apr 27, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

i think i’m having trouble believing in the concept of “slow starts.” i’m over at Fangraphs, looking at season avg and whatever. and the problem with these graphs is that they are showing how the cumulative season avg changes over the course of the year.

the problem with this is that it doesn’t acknowledge the greater weight earlier performances have on the shape of the graph. for instance, going 4-4 in game 1 starts you off at 1.000, but then that 4-4 is 50% of where the second point gets plotted, 33% for the third point, 25% for the fourth point, etc. So these early games have a much greater impact over the shape of the graphs than do later games.

the result is that it looks like players have either fast or slow starts, when the truth is that players have streaks throughout the season wherein they outperform or underperform their norms to a large degree, but the good and bad streaks from later in the season are hidden with 162 games worth of data.

if the graphs were shown in reverse, with game 162 at the beginning and game 1 at the end, these fast and slow starts would look like tiny ripples.

by BrianRose on Apr 27, 2009 3:30 PM EDT reply actions  

Right, you really need more like 10-day rolling averages.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

which is what i’m working on right now.

by BrianRose on Apr 27, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

i’m thinking something like “game X counts 10%, games X+1 and X-1 count 8% each, games X+2 and X-2 count 6% each.” it’s arbitrary values, but would that at least be close enough?

by BrianRose on Apr 27, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

That all depends what you’re trying to show. I would not make a very steep curve from one day to the next, if I were doing it.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

why is Pronk out a second consecutive game tonight?

by ASP on Apr 27, 2009 4:37 PM EDT reply actions  

I notice that for all the great points raised about slow starts and LaPorta… no one’s defending poor Danny Knobler. For shame.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2009 5:17 PM EDT reply actions  

I have never heard of this guy before. Is this representative of his work?

by ClarkM on Apr 27, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

No clue. But it’s a bad first impression, that’s for sure.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Before the comment gets deleted, I’m going to assume the above poster is Jay’s sock puppet.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2009 5:50 PM EDT reply actions  

No, it was a Yahoo insta-post dude. Didn’t read the article, obviously. This is what I get for being a traffic whore.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, speaking of which, I hate to be picky but can you contract the post so that the whole thing doesn’t show up on the front page?

I’m nervous to ask after yesterday’s game thread debacle.

by NickFantana on Apr 27, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

I probably will do this later, but just out of curiosity, why?

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Apr 27, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

It buries older content. Sometimes three of you will throw up great pieces at about the same time, and since they don’t show up in the sidebars, it can be easy to forget to read some of them, or to check back later for new comments.

by Voltaire on Apr 27, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

All three of us…

CAGEMATCH.

by afh4 on Apr 27, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s exactly why. Thanks V.

by NickFantana on Apr 27, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

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