Keeping Victor Martinez?
by Deep South Ken on May 15, 2009 10:49 AM EDT
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PrintShould the Indians resign Victor Martinez, and if so, when?
Currently he is signed through this season, with a club option ($7m) for 2010.
Last year, when Martinez was injured, Shoppach was hitting, and the Indians had just snagged Carlos Santana, I figured that the Tribe planned to let Victor play out his contract and move on. Martinez would be in his early 30s, prone to injury and natural breakdown as a catcher, and the Indians would have Shoppach and Santana (and Wyatt Toregas and Chris Gimenez for depth).
Sure, Victor could play 1B, but the Indians had potential star 1B players (LaPorta and Mills, for starters) in the minors who could play inexpensively. And would Victor's offense, so impressive at Catcher, be as impressive at 1B?
This year, with Martinez hitting .400 with power in the heart of the order, his presence is clearly fundamental to this season's success and it has made me question my assumptions of last year.
Yes, there are also intangibles to consider, such as how he handles pitchers and his leadership, but don't fall in love with your assets, right?
So should the Tribe approach Martinez after this season, when they still have exclusive negotiating rights and can tear up his option year in order to sweeten the deal and get him to sign?
Or should they just exercise the option and see how 2010 goes? Trade Martinez if the season goes bust (surely it won't), but get to the end of 2010 and take stock of where Shoppach, Santana, LaPorta, and Mills are in their development and then make a decision about whether to compete for Victor's services?
And how much would Victor Martinez, if healthy, command on the free agent market in dollars and years at that point?
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Where do we honestly think LaPorta will end up? LF? RF? 1B? DH?
If we can determine that, then I think we would have a better grasp on whether keeping Vic as primarily a 1B would be the right move. Vic may tend to age better playing first, so a new contract would be much more viable.
I would move Shoppach if possible.
Sometimes, I just like to b****.
When he’s healthy, Martinez is one of the best hitters in baseball (as we’ve seen again this season). He’s also one of, if not THE, leader of this team. I would be really reluctant to let him walk, but if he asks for 5 years at huge dollars (which he might), that’s another story (see Travis Hafner). I certainly think they should try to keep him; he’s too good a player to write off.
I think there is too much that can happen from now and then it is impossible to project. Wedge could be gone (and change Victor’s attitude toward the organization), prospects could have injuries or difficulties adjusting, an agent could be in his ear telling him to go to free agency no matter what (ala Sabathia).
Ideally, we go onto a dream season this year and win it all. Then we are in a position to dump Victor and Lee at mid-season of 2010 if things go poorly. What an awesome wealth of picks we could acquire from that.
Realistically, we are good enough to win a division, but probably not a WS title this year. We go into 2010 in a similar situation where we are never truely out of the race in this division and we keep both guys the entire year and lose them in FA.
Let’s not forget that their payroll is 90 million dollars (and likely to be slightly higher next year) in a deep, deep recession and could last longer in Ohio. I can’t forsee them adding significant costs for 2010, unless they are able to dump more salary (aside from Derosa, Dellucci and Masa),.
Realistically, we are good enough to win a division, but probably not a WS title this year.
dead topic.
yeah – if you are good enough to make the post-season, you are capable of getting lucky enough to win the WS
Since the introduction of the wildcard, only 2 teams have won a World Series that had less than 90 wins (2000 Yanks, 2006 Cards).
Not very good odds.
I agree. I know anything can happen in the playoffs, but an 85-win team winning the WS just isn’t very likely.
by Buckeye Brad on May 15, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
see. this is why things get designated as dead topics. they get brought up, discussed, etc. then someone brings it up again, says “nuh-uh” and the same conversation ensues.
Gee, thanks for the defintion of a dead topic.
by Buckeye Brad on May 15, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Since the introduction of the wildcard, only 2 teams have won a World Series that had the best regular season record in baseball (1998 Yankees, 2007 Red Sox [tie]).
Not very good odds.
by SuddenSam on May 15, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
i think victor dictates this. my guess is he will fall under that ‘special player’ category when the team considers keeping him longer term and that he would be willing to stay at a hometeam discount. if he stays heathly – which if he only plays half-catcher, i think is likely – then i think they’ll work something reasonable out. when, i’m not sure.
I think we talk to him this season, and see what he’s thinking. Is he willing to take a significant cut to stay with the team for a few more years? Do he really value (as in, value at millions of dollars) being an Indian his whole career? If not, then we part ways after 2010. I love love love the guy. He’s been a great Indian, but we should not pay what he’ll get on the market. No way.
Replying to myself, as is the fashion these days.
Sometimes I think we need to rethink our expectations as fans with regard to player’s careers. After 2010, Victor will have spent part of 9 seasons with the major league Indians. 9 seasons busting his butt and entertaining us with line drives and crazy handshakes. Here it makes sense for both the club and the player to part ways (assuming no huge discount). The Ripken model of staying with one team for a whole career isn’t just the exception, it’s the extremely rare exception. There’s a balance struck by baseball’s free agent rules, and it’s a pretty good one. He’s going to leave, and it’s OK.
jay hinted at this in the gamethread yesterday. i love the sounds of victor as the starting 1B and then be like Fausto’s personal catcher. Shoppach is your starter till Santana is ready and you just phase him into the fold and victor out. a choo-sizemore-laporta outifield sounds good to me for a little while. when hafner’s shoulder gives out and/or brantley is ready to start you move him to DH. it’s too early to make any decisions based on mills or weglarz may do someday in my opinion.
by Brick. on May 15, 2009 1:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Does anyone know if Carlos Santana can play another position? I know they are grooming him as a catcher (and rightly so), because you can’t count on Martinez leaving for more money elsewhere, but at least that gives us some more options.
However, if Victor stays then Shoppach really seems to be the odd man out here, especially bc Garko can at least play 2 positions (1st base/outfield).
If Victor leaves then Shoppach becomes invaluable as a fall-back option. The Indians will no doubt give Santana the majority of the catcher at-bats in his first year called up.
The thing that sucks for Shoppach is that in either scenario – he is nothing more than a backup catcher on this team. Regardless, he is still our biggest trading chip – and we all know Shapiro loves to deal from a position of strength to fill a weakness.
I really feel bad for the guy bc I’m pretty sure he would be an upgrade over the starting catcher for at least 20 teams out there. Tough luck – a 20 HR campaign and the next year you’re on the bench. Such is life when you play behind V-MART (and he’s hitting .400).
Santana split time between 3B and the outfield in his first two pro seasons, 06-07. He conceivably could be moved by to third base. I think they’d play him there occasionally if they didn’t want to focus completely on his continuing development as a catcher.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
And also if we didn’t have a sure-shot 3B prospect in AAA.
by fleerdon on May 18, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Hello Jay,
I think it would depend on how quickly his defense catches up to his bat – the thinking was that his offense was progressing at such a pace that the Indians may not be able to keep him down in the Minors long enough to let him fully develop his defensive skills behind the plate. If that occurs, then it’s likely he’ll have to be finished defensively as a catcher at the ML level – if he would struggle for any length of time or if they’d want to give him a break here and there, I could see where he would play 3B for us.
If Santana would continue to struggle long-term defensively behind the plate at the ML level, I could see where Santana could become our 3B long-term. Even if this would occur, though, I’m still not sure I’d see Martinez staying behind the plate long-term if he did resign here – his bat would likely remain strong longer-term playing more or all of the time at 1B. Yes, Victor might not have 30+ HR power, but hitting between .300-.400 and being one of our most consistent hitters with a relatively low number of strikeouts (especially compared to guys like Sizemore and Peralta), that’s nothing to sneeze at, so I’m not worried about whether his offense would fit at 1B.
Additionally, if Sizemore is still in CF, and someone like Valbuena at 2B and/or Santana at C are hitting HRs, that will help to “make up” for the lack of power at 1B – in my mind, it’s not where on the field you get the HRs, just as long as you get some HRs as part of your overall offensive arsenal. Where it comes from on the field does not mean that much to me, and shouldn’t be that big of a factor when considering whether Victor is worth paying if he is going to play 1B full-time in the future – his overall skill as a hitter, not just his power numbers, should be taken into account when determining whether to offer him a long-term contract or not.
Just my 2 cents – no offense.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
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