Game 39: Rays 7, Indians 5
by afh4 on May 17, 2009 5:24 PM EDT
in Game Recaps
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PrintAfter a hope-inspiring start to their trip to Tampa, the Indians fell back into old habits and finished the series with a thud. Today was hard to distinguish from any number of other games that a pitcher, be he starting or relieving, has mangled this year. David Huff, in his major league debut, was horrendous; he walked 4, struck out only two, and let the Rays score 7 runs in just 3.2 IP.
The Indians continue to look around for anyone who can stabilize the pitching staff, and they continue to come up empty. Both Matt Herges and Greg Aquino turned in decent performances today, but neither is inspiring much long term confidence. Huff will probably get a chance to start one more game but if he falls flat again, it's unclear what the contingency plan will be. Perhaps the most likely scenario is Laffey back to the rotation with Hector Rondon coming to the major league bullpen. However, if the Indians don't improve very quickly it might not be worth dealing with the service time headaches that bringing Rondon to the majors could create.
Up until the 8th inning, this game was following the script of recent losses: some combination of very, very bad things (David Huff's performance) and sort of good things (Ben Francisco's two-home-run day) happen, and then the game just sort of ends. While the early part of the season featured disappointment characterized by shock and awe, the past few weeks have been death by ennui.
But then, in the 8th, things got weird. Herges got the first two outs via strikeout, with a walk sandwiched in between. Wedge then went to Wood, ostensibly to get the closer some work. However, conspiracy theorists might say it was because Wood throws very, very hard and the next batter was B.J. Upton, who has been generally terrorizing the Indians via both the homerun and the stolen base. The first pitch Upton saw, well, he didn't see it. Because it went behind him. Everyone seemed sort of upset and then Wood came inside again. Victor and Joe Maddon yelled at each other, and some guys stood around the field for a while before Wood, who was sort of surprisingly allowed to remain in the game, walked Upton and K'd Carl Crawford to end the inning. Then, to start the 9th inning, Troy Percival hit Mark DeRosa with a pitch after getting to an 0-2 count. Percival then came back to retire the next three Indians in order: ballgame.
It was odd end to the game for a lot of reasons, and I'm not even sure I've described it accurately. It was surreal, and perhaps more notably, it was not Wedge. It was not Wedge at all. In Wedge's tenure with the Indians, he has rarely, and in my recollection never, had such a public week. Wedge was ejected during Friday's game for arguing an out call at home plate, and then he publicly called out his pitching staff in the postgame, and then today he called Maddon on his line-up card error and was involved in the 8th inning imbroglio. Wedge's MO as manager has been to show a steady hand, managing with a quiet, unemotional intensity. This sudden change in behavior is almost certainly indicative of the stress he's under, and perhaps it also represents Wedge's attempt to do something, anything, to save the season and his job.
This team appears to be unravelling fast from an emotional point of view; games are becoming chippy, and there's a real potential for a divided clubhose here if the offense continues to produce while the pitching continues to falter. Obviously, the Indians have very little time left to resurrect their playoff hopes, and engaging in all of these extracurriculars might not be moving them any closer to that goal. Then again, maybe these extracurriculars will provide emotional rallying points. Who knows anything about the Cleveland Indians any more?
Tomorrow is the day that Adam (APV) had originally identified as a potential Wedge firing day; it's the only off day before June 8. For now, we'll all watch and wait.
Next Up: Off day tomorrow, Lee v. Bannister, Tuesday at 8:10.
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Every game leaves me with the “every road leads to a dead end” feeling.
When the starters throw well, the pen blows it.
When the starters fail, the pen hangs in there.
We’re recycling through every piece of jetsam and flotsam we can find for the bullpen.
The lineup is once again at “occasional explosion” stage … which is usually followed by the “baffling at bats” stage.
Wegde is shuffling lineups on a daily basis “just trying to find something that works.”
The best player on the team is in the middle of a huge slump/regression.
Even all the calls are going against the team …
It’s gonna be a long summer.
Oh, put Rondon back in the rotation.
It’s easy to see that you’re new here. Not because there’s anything wrong with what you’re posting, but just because most folks here already posted stuff like this two weeks ago and are now just too sick of it to post.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Not because there’s anything wrong with what you’re posting, but just because most folks here already posted stuff like thistwo weeks agofor most of the 2008 season and are now just too sick of it to post.
Fixed.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on May 17, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I know … newbie posting his feelings I guess.
Guess I picked the wrong time to stop sniffling glue!
by FallsTribeFan on May 17, 2009 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Airplane! quotes are always appreciated.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on May 18, 2009 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Falls TribeFan, I like your recent flurry of posts. The enthusiasm is appreciated.
I admit, though, I’m not with you on your conclusion that it’s going to be a long summer. I’m tremendously perplexed and discouraged by how the first quarter of this season has gone. The game thread had it right—Herges, Aquino, Vizcaino, and Laffey in the bullpen? Wow.
But this team still plays in the AL Central—and Detroit is leading. Yes, by 7.5 games over the Tribe right now. But really, we’re going to roll over for Detroit this early? After an early season with so many games on the road, and many of them against strong competition (Boston, New York, Toronto, and, yes, Tampa Bay)?
I know they won’t all make it back the way we wish they would, but if Hafner or Westbrook can play effectively, and if Joe Smith and Rafael Perez get sorted out and back into the relievers we know they can be, and Grady Sizemore starts having the season we can reasonably expect from him, then this ball team can still win games and win the division.
Let’s not trade Pavano and DeRosa. Let’s win enough games to make it worthwhile to trade a valuable minor leaguer or two for the talent we still need. Go Tribe.
by Deep South Ken on May 17, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I’m not giving up.
Like I said … its just one of those feelings.
Frankly, I don’t see this team having the sustained runs needed to get back into it …
by FallsTribeFan on May 17, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
if Hafner or Westbrook can play effectively, and if Joe Smith and Rafael Perez get sorted out and back into the relievers we know they can be, and Grady Sizemore starts having the season we can reasonably expect from him, then this ball team can still win games and win the division.
If my auntie had balls, she’d be my uncle.
by JulioBernazard on May 17, 2009 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/Mr-Harrison-isn-t-going-to-Washington-Steeler-?urn=nfl,163886
I have never posted on here before.
I am de-lurking because this is freaking hilarious.
I might have to steal that from you.
-Kyle
by Kyle Garret on May 17, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
If my auntie had balls, she’d be my uncle.
Sorry, I meant this.
And now I can’t delete my other post.
Newbie, newbie, newbie.
-Kyle
by Kyle Garret on May 17, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad you like it. My Irish friend taught me that, and I heard it on an episode of Extras, too, I think.
by JulioBernazard on May 18, 2009 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions
In short
If the team didn’t suck, it would be pretty good and we’d win.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on May 19, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it’s easy to say now, but I think it was a mistake to send Sowers down and to start Huff today. I’d send Huff back down and recall Sowers to start next Friday.
About Wedge, I think he was exactly right in the way he handled the lineup card screwup – if a team makes a mistake that can cost them the dh you have to take advantage. About the Wood/Upton thing, I just don’t know. Not even sure if Wedge was in on that.
Nothing to do with that. I can guarantee you that it goes back to earlier in the series, with Upton stealing and third when down 9-0 on Thursday night and then stealing third when down 7-0 Friday night. I thought he might get a message sent to him sometime this series, and Wood is definitely old-school, so it’s no surprise it was him that did it.
Now, you can question why someone would be sensitive to that, but stealing with big leads or deficits isn’t looked on fondly by those who play the game. It probably has something to do with being selfish, and not playing it “the right way.” I’m a little old-school myself, so I’m glad Wood did that there, though I wasn’t terribly offended by what Upton did. Maybe a little irked.
But in Upton’s defense, both steals were followed by rallies that got the Rays back into the game, one of which they eventually won.
I can’t see how baseball etiquette proscribes the team that’s behind trying to catch up. This is really the first time I can remember that even being suggested. What you don’t do is continue to be aggressive on the basepaths when you’re far ahead.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I agree that it’s much worse when you’re way ahead, but here is the story from Castro. I even quoted “playing the right way” before I saw it in the story, though it does look like Castro posted before me.
As for the near-melee in the bottom of the inning, I think the Indians were in the wrong there. While Kerry Wood didn’t own up to purposefully pitching inside to B.J. Upton, Victor Martinez’s comments seemed to indicate that that was indeed in the intent.
“You don’t see nobody stealing when it’s 9-0 in the sixth or seventh inning,” Martinez said.
Martinez was referencing Upton’s two swiped bags in the bottom of the sixth on Thursday, when the Tribe was up 9-0. But in my view, he had no right to be upset about that. The Rays were trying to take advantage of their speed to generate some offense, and that’s just what they did. They made it a 9-6 game, and the Indians held on for an 11-7 victory.
This is what Rays manager Joe Maddon had to say:
“It was really obvious that Wood came into the game to try and hit B.J. I know there’s all these unwritten rules in baseball. But to me, when the other team stops trying to score runs, that doesn’t mean you have to stop trying to score runs also. … The book was written when the ball wasn’t as lively. Scores change rather rapidly these days. So there’s a lot of pages from the book that need to be burned, extracted, whatever you want to call it.”
I can’t disagree with that, but Victor sure did.
“[Maddon] needs to worry about teaching his players to play the game the right way,” he said.
Yeah I said the same thing during yesterday’s thread. I can’t understand where Vic is coming from at all on this.
by supermarioelia on May 18, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions
pure frustration projected onto someone/something else.
by clusterchuck on May 18, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Baseball etiquette, pure and simple. It’s seen as an act of vanity—personal stat-padding—at the expense of your team. When Milton swiped a base against the Indians last season down 9-2 or something he was hit in the foot by Sabathia. Upton’s running had no bearing on the game, did it? On Saturday, the running made the difference in the game. Maury Wills said he would stop stealing bases when the big guys would stop trying to hit homeruns, but I agree with Victor all the way.
That’s absurd. Upton stole down 7-0 in a game his team won. He was trying to get back in the game. What’s wrong with that? What are the Rays supposed to do, quit trying? A good way back into the game against the Indians is to get to the pen and to run against Victor. If Victor, and I love the guy, doesn’t like it, he needs to learn to throw someone out. “Baseball etiquette” is nothing but a stupid excuse.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
Agreed. It’s a means to disguise his true frustration
by clusterchuck on May 18, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Right. It’s one thing to steal a base when you’re up 7 runs, but I don’t see anything wrong with trying to score runs when you’re losing by 7. Do you expect the Rays to just give up and stop trying? Of course not!
by Buckeye Brad on May 18, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
especially when they know that we’re vulnerable when closing out games. i actually commend them for not laying down. unfortunately, our bats did the opposite.
by clusterchuck on May 18, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Them’s the rules. You guys don’t have to like them. I suppose it had to do with an era where a seven-run lead was pretty much insurmountable. And Victor isn’t the only catcher who can’t stop Tampa’s running game.
That’s one of the positives of the running game: it disrupts the opposing team. It’s unsettling. It would be cool to have a team that could pull double steals with regularity. And a team that is successful more than half the time (unlike Sizemore).
Maybe the rules from a few decades ago, but as you said baseball is different now. There are many unwrittern rules that used to be followed which aren’t any more. Rules change.
by Buckeye Brad on May 18, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s not the rules, it’s an idiotic more left over from the 50’s. Victor has no right to be upset with anyone but himself.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
Victor has every right to be upset when a pitch gets thrown at his head and the other team shrugs it off as no big deal. I suspect that this whole kerfuffle was a combination of the pitch at Victor’s head and the indiscriminate running.
by woodsmeister on May 18, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, the way the Rays have been running this year, I’m surprised that more teams aren’t throwing at them.
by woodsmeister on May 18, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s actually kinda dumb to steal down by 7. If Vic doesn’t like it he and Kelly should do some extra practice throwing guys out. More than anything, you need baserunners down by 7.
FE WEE
Victor is just wrong about this.
Upton stole two bases in that game. In both cases, he was stealing 3B with one out and Longoria at the plate. That, taken by itself, is clearly a run-maximizing strategy and not stat-padding.
As for the game situations, one was in the 4th inning, down 7-0, and the other was in the 7th inning, down 7-5. Obviously Victor is not going to object to the latter, although maybe he groups both of them together, along with his own failure to stop Upton.
What exactly is wrong with the first one, though? Are we really going to pretend that seven runs is an insurmountable lead when you still have almost six whole innings to catch up? That’s silly. Hell, the average run expectancy is 3.5 runs, so they just have to do 3.5 better than average. That happens all the time.
Are we going to pretend like they should be playing the we-only-need-baserunners game, like it’s already the 8th inning? That’s also silly. With 17 outs remaining and already one out in the current inning, there’s nothing wrong with playing to get one run now and figure out the rest later.
Now, if it were 7-0 in the 8th, one out, men on 1B and 2B, then Victor would have a right to be mad, because that would just be stat-padding and not even run-maximizing, let alone win-maximizing. But even in the 8th, I don’t think it can be said that the game is over at that point. And specifically, it can’t be said when your team is playing the 2009 Indians.
Maddon is right — even if Victor is observing “the rules,” which I’m skeptical of, the rules are wrong.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
He stole second and third when down 9-0 Thursday. He stole third down 7-0 Friday.
Jay, I’m not saying it’s right what Victor did, but I would venture to guess that the majority of veteran players feel this way. If we say Victor is wrong, then a lot of people are wrong. And maybe they are. Some comments on this topic seem to indicate that Victor is in the minority. I don’t think he is when it comes to players.
The reason I thought that someone might throw at him is because it was shocking to see what Upton did. It was shocking because you rarely see someone do that. I’ll also add that there is probably a distinction between doing that with nobody out (especially third base), and with stealing second with two out. Again, not from my perspective, but from a player’s perspective.
I’m not necessarily arguing that there should be these unwritten rules, or that I think they’re not silly in a lot of cases. But it’s also probably important to recognize that we’re looking at it from our perspective. Most of us have not played professional baseball, or any real high-level of baseball. Sure, from our perspective, this looks really stupid. But if you have had Victor’s perspective, and had conversations with multitudes of veteran players over the years, it’s possible everyone might feel differently about it. That’s all.
Let’s not forget the posing like a statue after his walk-off shot.
by woodsmeister on May 18, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t know if that made any difference. I also don’t think what happened to Victor at the plate the other night was a factor either. I don’t think Howell was throwing at him and Victor admitted as much. I think Victor overreacted there, and I also think he should not have spoken out directly about Upton, and just said what Wood said. Because if you thought Upton ran wild this past weekend, what do you think he’ll want to do in Cleveland next week?
I’ll also say that if the Tribe was 25-14 and not 14-25, this may not have happened at all and we wouldn’t have this topic to discuss. Frustration probably plays a factor too.
I think frustration had a lot to do with it.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on May 18, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions
i won’t argue that there are these crazy unwritten rules in baseball, b/c there clearly are, but it seems to me that we’ve reached a point in our evolution where they are aggressively outmoded.
away from putting in the scrubs in a blowout/getting blown out situation, why in the world should any professional team ever do anything differently, regardless of score? all of these guys get paid an awful lot of money to do this stuff, so it seems to me to be a bunch of crying to say “that’s not how the game is played.” as has been said here, if you don’t like what another team is doing to you, stop them. you are pros.
up 7 runs, down 7 runs; 1st inning or 9th. i see no issues w/ playing the game (any game) all out. the unwritten rules are bullshit (sorry for the strong language outside of a game setting).
by DontCallMeJoey on May 18, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
The season in almost a quarter over. Detroit, the division leader, is on track to win 90 games. To win 90 games, if we turned it around right now, would require playing .618 ball for the rest of the season, .600 if we think 88-74 is good enough to win the division.
I think winning 60% of our games for the rest of the year is possible, but the time for tinkering is over. It isn’t working.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on May 17, 2009 7:36 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I think winning 60% of our games for the rest of the year is possible, but the time for tinkering is over. It isn’t working.
rec
So, what? You stand pat with Huff in the rotation, Laffey in the bullpen?
I don’t see much tinkering, I just see trying to put out fires.
I interpret tinkering as doing things like putting Garko in LF and DeRosa at 1B. That’s not a potential long-term solution. Huff and Laffey are. Peralta at third is a potential long-term move. Moving all of our minor league starters into the bullpen, tinkering.
So we’ve identified the problem as one game of questionable deployment?
I just think this is forest for the trees. I don’t really care if Garko plays 40 innings of OF if the bullpen is actually ok.
Wedge said on STO during the game that he put DeRosa at first because he wanted the infield to be more athletic. That was his reasoning.
by Buckeye Brad on May 18, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand all the tinkering the team has done and I understand why. Sometime tinkering works, this time it hasn’t.
But the season is now on the line. Wedge should determine our best lineup, the best position for each player for the rest of the year, our best rotation for now, identify the role of each in the bullpen and tell the team we’re going to win or lose with this lineup.
In fact if it were me I would hold a team meeting before the next game and say:
“This is YOUR team, your season, your FUTURE, not mine. I may be fired but you will stay here and it will still be your season. I will manage to the best of my ability and I will fight and defend you, but ultimately it is YOU who must win the games.
We are on track to lose 104 games. You are better than this, in fact you are MUCH better than this and you know it. We still have 123 games left in the season and we only have to win 60% of those games to make the playoffs. So let’s set this league on Fire and let the world know that the Cleveland Indians are BACK.
From now on EVERY pitch, EVERY at bat, EVERY MOVE we make will have just one objective: TO WIN THE GAME! Do you hear me?"
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on May 18, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I can find a dozen sources for you saying that Wedge is some kind of unbelievably great motivational speaker. I have no reason to doubt that that’s true.
What’s wrong with this team is beyond pep talks. They’ve had those.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I have no doubt Wedge is a great motivational speaker – in fact I assume a lot of managers are skilled at this. This is just the speech I would like to hear him give after affirming everyone’s role for the rest of the season. I’m not sure that what is wrong with this team is beyond a pep talk. It sure appears that much of the problem is mental.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on May 18, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s not the talk, its the tune. Wedge has already said everything he can possibly say to this team over the years, many times, in similar situations.
Its like adrenal glands under constant prolonged stress – after a certain point the stress becomes baseline and they stop reacting to the same stimuli.
What’s wrong with this team is beyond pep talks. They’ve had those.
Boy, that’ll torpedo any optimism about the season, huh?
by NickFantana on May 18, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Detroit ain’t winning 90 games. They’ve been lucky. I think Jackson, Gallaraga and Porcello come down to earth. Adam Everett is a good defender, but is he a better hitter than Peralta? The Tigers are the best team in the division, but the Indians can beat them if they get a few breaks.
I think afh4’s right about Wedge’s departure from character — trying to do SOMETHING. But, I do think it’s an error on his part to call out the pitchers the way he did. After all, Cliff Lee has reason to complain that the hitters have largely abandoned him when he’s pitched. The bullpen (and the back end of the rotation) have indeed been bad, but they are not the only problem. And, I can’t help feeling that a more effective message would have been sent by sending Lewis back to the minors without too much comment.
Today's game Tribe vs. Rays 5-17-09
Today’s game was probably the oddest, most bizarre MLB baseball game I’ve ever attended. I haven’t read through any of the other game log posts but Garko’s hit was most definitely a double. The ball bounced WAY up in the air – no way that could happen if it hit off Crawford’s glove. That fence has heavy padding so it clearly did not hit the fielder’s glove and bounce that high.
The lineup screw up by the Rays took the umpires an eternity to sort out. I saw DeRosa talking to the 1st base umpire at length before the start of the bottom of the first and knew something was up. I read a summary of the game on Yahoo sports where they said it was a 13 minute delay; it was more like 25-30 minutes.
Garko was playing way in on Sonnanstine’s double, but moreover, how could the left handed Huff give up a hit to a left handed batting pitcher ? That insurance run was huge.
Also if you add Garko’s double being taken away by the umps you have a potential tie score sitting at second base.
And then the throwing behind B.J. Upton by Wood. The clearing of the benches. And the ensuing hbp of DeRosa by Percival. Just a bizarre game all around.
It’s hard for me to believe that Wedge did not get tossed from the game. If I would have been the manager after seeing what happened on the Garko hit, I would have been tossing my hat and ripping second base out of the ground (ala Lou Piniella) and tossing it into centerfield. That was just a blown call.
Oh well, another day in the life of a Tribe fan. Carry on …
by SpringTrainingFun on May 17, 2009 8:24 PM EDT reply actions
Hello there
Just joined the blog myself. I am from Tampa and have been an avid Tribe fan since 8 years of age. I have been thru the lean and not so lean times. I still have nightmares of Tony Fernandez in game seven of the 97 series. I love the Tribe and my ultimate loyalties lye with them. I also root for the Rays. I hate seeing my two favorite teams having hostilities to end the series in Tampa. I was present on Friday night pulling for the Tribe in my own home town. When they had spring Training in Winter Haven, I was sad to see them move to Arizona, I would attend about 5 games a year. I will forever be a Tribe fan. I am not born in Cleveland nor have I ever been. I became a tribe fan after seeing the movie Major League for the first time. I will be in Cleveland on 06/12-06/15 to see my first game at the Jake against the Cards.
Just wanted to drop by and say hello and let you know you do have some fans outside of the Cleveland area.
That being said I pull for the Rays when they are not playing the Indians. I hate the Red Sox and Yankees and I like watching small market exciting baseball. Which was provided by the Indians and Rays of late.
GO TRIBE !!! …. It’s gonna be a long year. But if I can hang in there we can all hang in there.
let you know you do have some fans outside of the Cleveland area.
Wait…there are Indians fans from outside of Ohio? When did this happen?
by supermarioelia on May 17, 2009 9:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Definitely none in Canadia.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on May 18, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Can we lift the cursing ban? I might have to watch the Rays instead. I like their team makeup. Even if they are not winning at a high level. That speed factor reminds me of the 1985 Cardinals.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
Miller (1-1), activated from the disabled list before the game
I freaked for a little bit.
I'm not really into Song of Hiawatha.
by sarcasmdave on May 17, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
What an unfortunate thing to happen on Dozen Egg Night.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on May 17, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Doom, gloom, despair. So okay, it feels like it’s over. Maybe it is. The fact remains the Central is a weak division, so maybe not.
Call a team meeting for Monday-tell ‘em Tuesday starts a new series and everyone is going to leave it all on the field on-Tuesday. But Monday everyone is going to play putt putt, eat barbecue, play some smash brothers. And as a team, you are all going to start picking each other up from this day forward until everyone is picked up. I know they’re pros, but it’s hard to get out of that “what’s going to go wrong today?” mindset when everything seems to go wrong every single day. They’re pressing and it’s making it worse.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
This team is just depressing. It’s like some poor soldier getting a war wound in one of those World War II flicks. His blood and guts are pouring out onto the ground and his buddies are telling him “it’s okay, we’re going to get you fixed up, you’re going to pull through.” Stick the morphine in me doc, I don’t want to feel the pain anymore.
That’s grim
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 18, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Interesting notes from AAA today.
- Hafner 1-3 against Wang, who has now thrown 13 scoreless innings in his rehab.
- Sowers had 7 good innings giving up one run to get the win. Raffy-L got the save with a 10 pitch, two K inning.
Sowers has pretty much shown he’s a AAA stud. I think they should see how that translates to AAA bullpen at this point; it’s clear that he can’t be trusted (nor should he be) to help the Big League rotation except as an emergency measure.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on May 18, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on May 18, 2009 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Just another weekend of missed opportunities and breaks not going our way. A month of that is just bad luck, consecutive months of that and it becomes your identity.
It’s great to have a “layer of talent” that can one day be our new core of players, it’s another thing to have to wait for them to experience all the growing pains that young players go through.
Personally, I am waiting for the enema that flushes all this toxic sludge out of our system and we can start over again. Throw Wedge overboard, end the Dellucci contract, trade Derosa and a few others, etc. Get to a point where a win is a pleasant surprise and not an absolute necessity to save our season.
especially when I spend the whole day hitting refresh on the ESPN homepage, hoping to see that Wedge is gone.
by clusterchuck on May 18, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m actually glad today is an off-day, despite the bad taste of the TB series… The thought of pressing right along, as tense as things were, seems overwhelming.
by Logodaedalus on May 18, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Espn.com is such garbage. Rumour on the front page side-bar suggesting Vic might be traded to the RedSox. I’m not an Insider so I can’t investigate further.
And remember a couple games ago when I suggested we change his nickname to “muscles”? Yeah a quick Google Image search shows that he has the second largest set of muscles of any man named Victor Martinez. Gross.
by supermarioelia on May 18, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
ESPN does nothing but chronically rosterbate for the Red Sox and Yankees
They know that Boston needs a catcher so they will start rumors that a trade is imminent for the best catcher in the AL at the moment. If there were to be a trade it better not involve anyone less than Jacoby Ellsbury. Without that they are not getting V-Mart.
The other that I would consider is Masterson. But I don’t see them giving either of those two up. So let them stick with Varitek they were dumb enough to re-sign him.
by PewterPirate55 on May 18, 2009 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha less than Ellsbury? Who the hell would want even him?
by supermarioelia on May 18, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Rosenthal actually has a whole piece on the potential trade of Vic.
by The DiaTriber on May 18, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
This is all going to come down to Dolan and the payroll.
We know there’s already a 7% drop in attendance year-to-year … if that goes up to 10-12%, I would wager Dolan will be cutting back (considering they’ve already said the team will post a loss this year if the playoffs are not made.)
So … how far will it drop? Right now, it’s impossibly for the Indians to open 2010 much below $60 million. There’s almost $50 million tied up in 7 guaranteed contracts, plus 5-6 arbitration cases (including Shoppach, Perez, Garko and Reyes … Barfield too, but I’d wager he’s a non-tender candidate.)
So, if Dolan wants the payroll in the $50-$60 million range … I believe one of Lee or Victor will have to go.
Lee, you’d wager, would be the most likely, because with the option year and the demand for pitching, one would think you could land a Sabathia-like haul for him.
by FallsTribeFan on May 18, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions
This is all going to come down to Dolan and the payroll.
I don’t think so. Payroll and poor economics are a reality, but there are legitimate baseball discussions you can enter into regarding the role of Victor and Lee on the 2010 team. They are high value pieces, locked in at cheap rates (relative to market value) for one more year. If the Indians honestly think they have a chance to contend in 2010 I can’t imagine them being traded this season or off-season, unless they feel like they are getting equal major league value in return (something probably impossible for Lee, less so for Victor).
by APV on May 18, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely … Victor as a team leader and top hitter and Lee as the anchor of the staff.
That said, I still say it depends on where Dolan wants the payroll.
Don’t forget, the Robby Alomar trade was predicated a bit by Dolan telling Shapiro he wanted $10 million trimmed off the roster. Declining performance was also a factor, although that decline hadn’t been seen in Cleveland just yet.
If Dolan is comfortable carrying $60 million next year … or even higher … there will be no impetus to deal either.
If he wants a serious step backwards, one will have to go.
by FallsTribeFan on May 18, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
How so?
I get looking at each player’s cost per win … and such … and don’t deny that Lee and Vic are both signed very affordably.
And I’m not advocating dealing either.
I’m just saying, what if Dolan suddenly says, “Mark, your budget is $55 million next season” … what do you do?
by FallsTribeFan on May 18, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
from the standpoint of your scenario. any budget has already taken into account all current contracts and potential options. it’s the “suddenly says” part of your thought process. there’s just no such thing with this FO.
True. Very true.
I would be willing to wager, however, that if this team takes a beating this season … it could very well alter the salary structure for next year.
Dolan has not been proven to be an owner that operates at a loss … so we don’t know what that might lead to.
Let’s hope it doesnt happen … I’d love for both of those guys to be here next season, but my head tells me it won’t be the case.
by FallsTribeFan on May 18, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the Robbie Alomar situation is something of a false comparison. Without looking up the numbers, I believe at the time Alomar was traded we were in the top 25% of payroll and also had next to nothing in our farm system. Right now our payroll is in the bottom 50% and our farm system is very good. The situations just aren’t that similar.
OK. Fair enough.
Think the team is 15th in payroll this season ($81 million) … and 5th in payroll in 2001($92 million) …
However, the team’s payroll was as low as $61 million in 2001 … and in the 30’s and 40’s during the rebuild years …
I still think one of them can and will go and the payroll will be dropped.
by FallsTribeFan on May 18, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
correction … typo’d the $61 million .. .that was 2007 salary.
by FallsTribeFan on May 18, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Ah great, a non-story. Thanks Rosenthal for your contribution.
by supermarioelia on May 18, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
He had a deadline! With nothing to report he was forced to make something up, hence the “well, they might…” article premise. After a game like yesterdays it only surprises me that we haven’t had rumor articles being printed about Shapiro becoming a Buddhist monk and moving to an ashram in remote Nepal, the Dolans checking into Betty Ford en famille, Wedge, on meth, arrested waving a nerf bat outside Dellucci’s townhouse and Bob Feller quoted as volunteering to show Kerry Wood how to plunk an opposing batter.
Okay, a little bit of good news. I’ve been under the impression that our fielding this year has been terrible, but I was wrong. Our fielding pct. is league average at .985 (6th of 14).
What really surprised me though was that we lead the league in double plays by a wide margin. We have 51, the next closest is KC with 42. The White Sox are at the bottom with just 24. We’re also second in the league in assists.
So despite our gaffes, we’re not fielding nearly as bad as I thought.
Our team ERA (5.65) is second worst in the majors, however, and we’ve given up the 4th most BBs.
We do lead the league in strikeouts (309). All 309 strikeouts have come with the bases loaded by the way…
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
Fielding problems to me are the little things that aren’t showing up in the box score.
Bad routes to balls … poor range … missing cutoff men … DeRosa has made a couple poor plays at 1B that, while not errors, certainly could have been made.
by FallsTribeFan on May 18, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Is leading the league in double plays not just a by-product of having a staff that allows an inordinate amount of baserunners? The rest of the stats do look good though, but I know your feeling that it seems a lot worse than that, much as Falls Tribe Fan alludes to
by Luis (Tribe Fan in London) on May 18, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Fielding percentage is not a good way to judge defense. The Indians are about the middle of the pack using UZR at -2.8 Not as bad as I thought they’d be, though, as you said.
by Buckeye Brad on May 18, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Using fielding percentage to argue we have a good defense is like using batting average to argue Cristian Guzman is the best hitter in the NL. Defensively, we are not good. We come 25th in defensive efficiency, with a negative number when adjusting for park. That’s appalling.
Using range factor we get that Ryan Garko is above average at first, Jhonny is above average at short, and Francisco is above average in left. Grady rates as exactly average in center and beyond that, we are a wasteland.
Our team RZR is also below league average, mostly due to the .758 being posted by the infield. In short, we’re a bad defensive team, no matter how you look at it.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
In minor league news, the Tribe’s 2nd round pick from last year, Trey Haley, gets his first start at Lake County tonite. Haley takes Joey Mahalic’s spot in the rotation after his promotion to Kinston.
The Tribe’s low-A club now sports an “all teen” rotation, reflecting what seems to be an ongoing sea change in farm philosophy: move talent up the ladder as quickly as performance and aptitude allow.
It just shows how awesome this season has been that an AL pitcher due to a lineup card screw up by his manager has an RBI double against the Indians.
I’m not sure I understand what Wedge is doing with all of these lineup modifications and switches. It as if it doesn’t work for one game, he scraps the lineup and goes in a different direction without letting anything settle in too long to see if it will be productive. Deck chairs, Titanic, I get it … but he seems to be shuffling the chairs in a reckless fashion.
Sometimes, I just like to b****.
I’ve seen the replay a couple times right now and have managed to convince myself than any even slightly below average outfielder makes the catch on Sonnanstine’s fly ball double
I reached the same conclusion. He had an improper reaction to the ball. Garko is an abomination out there.
It has “fly out” written on it as you watch it off the bat.
FanGraphs now has the ability to track the route running of OF’ers during games.
by Toxicadam on May 18, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
We’ve just ticked by 1:30PM EDT without any announcement concerning Wedge’s employment status.
I’m beginning to think he’s been spared for the moment.
by Seattle Tribe Fan on May 18, 2009 1:33 PM EDT reply actions
Maybe Shapiro is catching up on his soaps this afternoon and waited to schedule the press conference until 4 or 5.
by Buckeye Brad on May 18, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I was never a big Wedge-blamer, and although there have been some weird decisions lately (Garko in LF?), I’m still not. But it’s gotten to the point where it seems like he needs to be let go, simply because the expectation is there. As it is, he’s obviously really tense, not knowing whether he’ll be fired or not… and even though he may not bear much blame for the team’s performance, the release of suspense alone could help matters.
Why doesn’t our starting lineup look more (often) like this:
1b – Martinez
2b – Valbuena
ss – Cabrera
3b – Peralta
c – Shoppach
rf – Choo/DeRosa – L/R matchup
cf – Sizemore
lf – DeRosa/Francisco
dh – LaPorta/Choo
Delucci LH bat off bench. Garko RH bat off bench. Carroll to spell Valbuena and Cabrera from time to time. DeRosa to spell Jhonny at 3b. If Vic catches, DeRosa or Garko plays 1b. Garko never sees the OF, ever.
Sometimes, I just like to b****.
Choo at this point should be playing every day because of both his bat and his range/arm in the outfield. While not great against lefties, he still draws walks, has speed on the base paths, and provides the aforementioned outfield D
Just so you know, we are going to sweep Kansas City this week. Sweep. In Kansas City. I know this because I choose to embrace the gambler’s fallacy. It would be ridiculous to the point of unbelievability for us not to win them all. At some point, an ERA in AAA of 4.50 will not translate to a major league ERA of 14.50. At some point, pitchers projected to be somewhere above average will be at least above replacement level. At some point, the Indians will make the great catches, and the sprawling ones, and the ones they didn’t make at all, and the ones that fans stopped them from making. At some point, when both stat nerd and old hat scout guy agree that a team is good, it will win more than half its games. At some point, we get to use the same expected win-loss formula that everyone else does.
We’re Indians fans. We’ve seen horrible teams. We’ve seen teams that win 40% of their games. This is not one of those teams. It’s not. This is nothing more than Ben Zobrist going on a 50 game hit streak.
We will sweep Kansas City, with Anthony Reyes trouncing Zack Greinke in the finale. You’ve all been warned.
by dgcambridge on May 18, 2009 3:10 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
No subject lines? Why?
I’ve been reading for a couple days. I can’t believe I didn’t notice the lack of subject lines, ha.
Been a big Chiefs fan most of my life but still root for the Tribe and the Cavs. And the Browns when they aren’t playing the Chiefs and especially when they are playing the Steelers.
From over near Y-town.
glad to be here.
The Indians are ruining the season for me. I am very angry.
Paddy
by Patrick Allen on May 19, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Kudos to whomever crafted my F-bomb warning. That was funny.
I thought it was still ‘game-thread protected’ but apparently I was wrong.
Sometimes, I just like to b****.
Video of Garko's hit called an out
In cased you missed it, go here and watch video # 9 entitled “Garko is called out on a disputed play”. It’s 2:09 minutes long.
Watch the facial impressions on Wedgie as he argues the call. If that isn’t a MLB manager on his last 2 weeks of duty I don’t know what is …
http://tampabay.rays.mlb.com/media/video.jsp?mid=200905174607731&c_id=tb
You can also see the Sonnastine double (video #3) where Garko turned the wrong way (fturning left when the ball ended up over his right shoulder) when going back. Any regular outfielder would have made that catch. Garko absolutely butchered the play.
by SpringTrainingFun on May 18, 2009 6:35 PM EDT reply actions
I watched the highlights on ESPN, and was annoyed that they made barely any mention of Garko’s hit. And Ryan hardly mentions it here. Um…it was kind of a big play, right? And a horrible, horrible call?
I wrote the recap, not Ryan.
I don’t think of it as a particularly big play. It’s a bad call, sure, and it certainly is a big play in a vacuum. But, in the context of this season, it didn’t seem like it was really all that notable; it wasn’t followed by a homerun or something and, in watching the games, I never really felt like the Indians were in the game after the 4th. That’s probably foolish sounding but I have to go on my perception when I’m doing a recap 10 minutes after the game ends.
I thought the things that had to be covered were Huff collapsing and what that meant and the 8th inning. Garko didn’t even register for me.
To put another way, it’s only a big play if you think the Indians had any chance of winning the game which, as ridiculous as it sounds, I didn’t.
I actually agree it’s been overblown.
The call was horrible, and not only did the umps miss it, but they should have realized intuitively that the ball could not have bounced that high off his glove. They also should have at least asked Crawford if it hit the fence first — he wants to lie, make him lie, knowing the umps will see the replay later.
And yet, all that we missed was a chance to have Garko on 2B with Dellucci at the plate as the tying run. With one out, Garko can’t score on a single, and Dellucci is not likely to hit a double. We were two runs down. I simply don’t see it as a plum winning opportunity.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
“With one out, Garko can’t score on a single, and Dellucci is not likely to hit a double.”
That’s your logic for calling this missed call “overblown” ?
Huh. I think having a runner in scoring position with 1 out in a close game is rather significant. It brings the tying run to the plate. I must have missed the class where it was stated that once a batter is out on a bad umpire call, the next batter immediately is also ruled out.
But then, these are the Indians we’re talking about …
by SpringTrainingFun on May 18, 2009 9:15 PM EDT up reply actions
From a run expectancy standpoint, it was 0.6 runs. But the run expectancy chart doesn’t know that the runner is strictly station-to-station and the next two batters are a weak lefty and a decent righty, each facing a very tough RHP.
My point is, if they get the play right, we still probably don’t score a run, and even if we score that run, the odds are still against our winning the game.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Rationalize all you want, but your logic is still flawed. Bringing the tying run to the plate late in a tight game is significant. It puts the pitcher is under more pressure. 1 out with a runner on second and the tying run at the plate is a LOT different than 2 outs and no one on base.
It was a terrible call that was obvious to anyone who was watching the game.
by SpringTrainingFun on May 18, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
“But, in the context of this season, it didn’t seem like it was really all that notable …”
I was not aware that we were extrapolating one play of a baseball game into the entire season.
What happened to ‘one game at a time’ concept ?
by SpringTrainingFun on May 18, 2009 10:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Is this really that big of a deal?
If somebody cares so much, then they are welcome to write their own fanpost on how big of a deal this is. I was just trying to be courteous in explaining why it wasn’t in the recap.
The point is that, in a season of unmitigated disaster, one more bad call or play or whatever isn’t exactly huge news.
Sorry, I wasn’t mad about it, just curious. I certainly can’t argue that we would have won the game, because we don’t do that.
But I didn’t mean to be critiquing the recap as correct or not. It’s just my personal preference that I don’t give a f about the pointing and yelling in the 9th, in comparision to the Garko out.
by dgcambridge on May 19, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
It was kind of a big play, what with both bringing the tying run to the plate and ensuring that our best hitter (Martinez) gets an at bat in the 9th. It pales in comparison to the lineup card shenanigans and the pseudo brawl as far as newsworthy goes, however. ESPN has a contract with MLB, and, really, unless it affects the Yankees or the Red Sox, they’re not likely to go out of their way to make the umpires look bad.
by woodsmeister on May 18, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I disagree. Even if Garko did take a direct line to the ball, there’s no way he would’ve caught it. Nobody has mentioned how shallow he was playing, and I imagine that was an instruction from Datz/Rivera. Playing at that depth, I don’t think any of our left fielders catch that ball.
I don’t like Garko in the outfield either, but I’m going to wait to criticize him until he actually really mis-plays a ball. And I would guess that will happen sooner or later. But I’m not going to let hatred of the move (or Wedge, whatever the case is here for you guys) affect my judgment on what I saw.
You’re too kind to Garko. He broke a full second late and ran in the wrong direction. And pitifully slow. Any other Indians OF, IF, and perhaps some of our pitchers and catchers are able to get to that ball. He may have played shallow I cannot believe that ball went for a hit. As with the non-hit discussed above, I’m not sure that it mattered for this game, but I hope for the sake of future games that’s the last we see of Garko in the OF.
The guy has no defensive position. I’m not trying to be funny here: if there were a reverse All-Star team cast of current major-leaguers, he should be on it. It’s time to reevaluate his role on our team.
Haha, I really love the idea of a reverse All-Star team. How many players would we have on that team?
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 18, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the idea of a reverse all-star might need to incorporate some actual all-star talent that has somehow reversed. So, Grady.
The only other reversey that we have by Jhon’s definition is DD, I think. Ronnie Belliard is a lifetime reverse all-star.
I agree with this. Garko is not the biggest problem on the team, so people want to act like we should only be focusing on the bullpen. At this point though, I think it’s pretty clear that Garko really doesn’t bring anything to the table besides an okay bat, which isn’t really good enough to compensate for his deficiencies elsewhere.
Then we agree to disagree. I’ll allow some small chance that another of our left fielders may have had a play, but I really believe nobody would’ve made it playing that shallow. Turning the wrong way isn’t going to be the reason the ball dropped when it was 20 feet over his head. If he just missed it, then yes, the break would’ve cost him. He turned the right way and ran directly back and still was nowhere near it. If he was playing at normal depth and didn’t catch it, then fire away.
My point was that perhaps you feel this way because you hate the idea of having him in the outfield to begin with. Like I said, I wouldn’t put him out there either, but from what I saw, there is no way he was going to catch that. It was a line drive, not a can of corn.
I don’t think he’ll be on the roster next year. And he will be joined by DeRosa, Shoppach, and maybe Ben Fran.
Nobody has mentioned how shallow he was playing, and I imagine that was an instruction from Datz/Rivera.
I don’t see this is a defense, but rather as a further condemnation — of Wedge and the coaches. It doesn’t really matter whether the problem was Garko’s range, route or positioning. He shouldn’t have been out there, and that was Wedge’s call. If he was positioned poorly, that too was a byproduct of either (a) the coaches knowing he’s inadequate and trying to make the best of it, or (b) the coaches failing to account for his inadequacy. Maybe an average LF doesn’t catch that ball given Garko’s positioning, but then again, maybe an average LF wouldn’t have needed to be positioned that shallow.
Bottom line, this isn’t about Garko — he is what he is, and no doubt he’s giving it his all — it’s about the manager and coaches that put him in a position to fail in a costly way.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I didn’t say he was positioned incorrectly. And I’m not saying he needed to be positioned that way. You are. The pitcher was up, and even though Sonnanstine has a pretty decent swing, I think he was positioned correctly. I’d rather take the chance of him driving one over his head then have him hit one off his thumbs in front of him.
I think people are using this play as justification of why they feel Garko shouldn’t have been out there, and they’re viewing things through those glasses. Like I said, I don’t like him out there either, but to me, that didn’t appear to be his fault.
Wedge is #3 in tenure in the American League after Scioscia and Gardenhire.
Managers with long tenure generally have made the post-season more than once.
In the NL, Hurdle has slightly longer tenure with the Rockies with only 1 post-season appearance, but he did make it to the World Series.
This is a blatant distortion of the facts. Wedge was brought on with an admittedly subpar roster for the purpose of rebuilding a young team while working with below average monetary resources. Comparing that to LAA is just cherry picking. Both of the managers you mention work for clubs that have routinely outspent the Indians during the Wedge tenure. It would stand to reason that those managers would be expected to produce more.
You can argue that Wedge should be doing better this year, but picking a fact pattern that he can’t possibly achieve is fifth grade garbage.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
Wedge was brought in starting in 2003. I think it’s fair to say that Wedge has had a fair shot to field a winning team over the past six years, 2004-2009 — not a ballbuster club every year, but a club with a reasonable amount of talent in a reasonably weak division.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Neither Colorado nor Minnesota has “routinely” outspent the Tribe during Wedge’s tenure (if anything, Cleveland has outspent Colorado).
The comparison isn’t dispositive, but it’s not “fifth grade garbage,” either.
Don’t focus on the Angels, think about the 11 managers who have shorter tenure than Wedge. Those other teams do not have managers with 6+years of tenure and 1 post-season appearance.
But there’s a good argument that those teams are making decisions poorly — that they should have hired better managers and then stuck with them.
Even if I agree with your point, I don’t really see what the point of the point is. You don’t fire Wedge because other teams fire managers when their teams have similar track records.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Some good news today …
Hoynes just reported that common sense has prevailed … and Rondon is back in the rotation in AA!
by FallsTribeFan on May 18, 2009 8:36 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Time to post your first FanShot, FTF. Go ahead, you can do it.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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