Game 40: Kansas City 6, Cleveland 5
by afh4 on May 19, 2009 10:55 PM EDT
in Game Recaps
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PrintThe Indians lost again tonight. It happened when Kerry Wood gave up 4 runs in the 9th, ruining an 8 inning, 2 run effort for Cliff Lee.
That's pretty much what happened. The Indians lost. Again. The Indians will probably lose again tomorrow. The Indians might lose 100 games this season.
So, yeah. The Indians lost.
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So, um, wake me up when they fire Wedge. This is getting too painful to watch.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on May 19, 2009 10:56 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This is no time for rational commentary, so I will just say that those are the suckiest bunch of sucks who ever sucked. Except for Cliff Lee.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on May 19, 2009 10:57 PM EDT reply actions
And Vic and Droobs. 3 of 25 isn’t bad.
by supermarioelia on May 19, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Point taken. Laffey is OK, too. The rest of them can go to hell.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on May 19, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
are we allowed to call shapiro on being a pretty mediocre GM? or am i still supposed to believe that his decisionmaking process is great, his front office is one of the best in baseball, and that he’s just been a victim of bad luck in 2006, 2008, and 2009. meanwhile, “dumb” teams like minny and philadelphia continue to blunder their way to success!
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 19, 2009 11:03 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Prior to 2001, Minnesota never finished above 4th in 8 consecutive seasons. Did something signficant happen to that team in 2001? Gardenhire replaced Tom Kelly in 2002, so perhaps that is a factor.
Sometimes, I just like to b****.
i think you can thank terry ryan and his work in player development. . . of course, minnesota fans had to endure some pretty crappy years in the late 90s, but at least now they have a farm system that continually pumps out productive players. we cannot say the same, at least not yet.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 19, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
We currently have too many bad players—in a contending year, with our maximum payroll—for him to be great. the next step down is good, or above-average. I’ll go with good.
Yeah, I can agree with this
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 19, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
i’ll say he’s very good at some things, very poor at others, and generally very, very overrated.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 19, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think we have that many bad players. I think we have a lot of good players who, for unfathomable reasons, are not playing at a level even close to what could have been reasonably expected. Could anyone have predicted that Perez would collapse and take the bullpen with him? That Wood would be so bipolar? That Grady would get off to such a terrible start? It’s not the Garkos and Delluccis and the Franciscos that are the problem – it’s the poor performance by the players that were counted on to be significant anchors for this team – the players whose performance could just about be taken for granted.
by woodsmeister on May 19, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
while grady’s slump is puzzling, i don’t see why shapiro should get a free pass for the (repeat) failure of the bullpen. after 2006, i was willing to give the dude a mulligan, because bullpens are hard as hell to predict. but shapiro’s abject failure to construct a league-average bullpen in three separate seasons where we otherwise should have contended is not just “bad luck”.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 19, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
What if it is a historically bad bullpen, 2 years out of 3? Or is it 3 out of 4? They’re blurring together.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on May 19, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
it is at least in part due to poor drafting and a lack of power arms in the system
shapiro’s success in player development has largely come from swapping old players for prospects. he’s done an awesome job at this, but i would argue that it is not a sustainable way of running a baseball team.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 19, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If it wasn’t related to Cleveland, city of doom, I would say this is about as unlikely as a team starting a game by giving up 25 straight hits. Let us count the ways:
(1) Adam Miller hurt.
(2) Hafner hurt.
(3) Joe Smith. Scott Lewis. Jamey Carroll.
(4) Perez meltdown.
(5) Wood weirdness.
(6) Jensen Lewis meatball pitches. Betancourt not showing a great deal of progress.
(7) Masa.
(8) Chulk et al.
(9) Grady.
(10) lack of pretty much any improvement from Garko, Francisco, Barfield and Dellucci.
(11) erratic infield defense.
(12) Jhonny, reverse All Star?
(13) Sowers.
(14) Mark DeRosa, bum.
(15) Trevor Crowe, Kelly Shoppach.
What have I forgotten? It’s easier to list what’s gone right.
this is what a bad baseball team looks like
you would be able to come up with a similar list for the 2008 seattle mariners if you had high expectations for them
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 19, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The ‘08 Mariners weren’t any good to begin with. They got lucky in ‘07 and overperformed. Fundamentally, they weren’t a good team, and it showed that year. That’s different than a string of bad luck and players that have historically performed well having really bad seasons.
by Buckeye Brad on May 19, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
and i’m questioning the assumption that the 2008 mariners = bad team, while the 2006, 2008, and 2009 cleveland indians = “bad luck” teams
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 19, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree that at some point you can no longer hide behind bad luck and must accept performance, but if you keep 2005 (and why shouldn’t we?) you have a team record of 362-330, which isn’t a bad team. The winnings may have been unluckily or disadvantageously distributed—as they often are by the ignoble Pythagoras—but that is luck and not bad. Have the Indians overperformed recently? For that matter, has anyone overperformed over the past three seasons?
i really think the answer is a lot simpler
2005, 2007 bullpens = 3.72, 3.77 FIPs (2nd and 3rd best in baseball)
2006, 2008, 2009 bullpens = 4.38, 4.39, 5.32 FIPs, respectively
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
i wish i knew how to look up this stuff in terms of WXLR or SNLVAR, but FIP does the job i suppose
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
You can look at WXLR, but it says the same thing: horrible in those three years, excellent in two.
by dgcambridge on May 20, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
i guess to make myself more clear:
my problem with your premise is that it rests on the assumed validity of measurements informing us that the 2008 mariners overperformed, and the 2006/2008/2009 indians are unlucky/underachieving.
i fundamentally agree that the 2007 mariners were a lucky team, and that they made a huge error in gearing up to contend for 2008. but what has been “fundamentally” great about these recent indians teams? is having a league-average bullpen not “fundamental” to baseball success? furthermore, if our “fundamentals” are great, but we continue to lose, maybe we are incorrect in our assessment of what is truly fundamental.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 19, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The best way to determine true talent is looking at run differential — that’s a better indicator than won/loss record. Unfortunately, the Indians have a recent history of underperforming their run differential. No idea why that is, but it shows that they were fundamentally a better team that got unlucky. But, you’re right, that excuse wears thin after a while.
As you said, the ‘07 Mariners weren’t a good team by run differential, and they made a mistake assuming they were ready to compete in ’08.
by Buckeye Brad on May 19, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
i have a HUGE problem with this argument
run differential can be skewed by two things:
1) crappy bullpens that lose close games
2) offenses that score 20+ runs in big blowouts
do either of these sound familiar? this is what i’m talking about. some of the stat guys are saying “oh, look at the run differential, this is a good team that is getting unlucky.” this kind of logic precludes any alternative theories about why these recent indians teams have not been very good.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
OK, how often does #2 happen? Once every few years? That’s not a good reason, just reactionary to a game from last month.
And as far as #1, people always mention this, but they forget something else — crappy bullpens can also turn a close loss in to a large loss, so that also affects run differential in the other direction.
Run differential does matter. After the first two months, look at teams that either overperform or underpeform their run differential; their luck usually changes and their record moves towards what their run differential says they should be. It does mean something.
by Buckeye Brad on May 20, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
i’m not saying that run differential does not matter
i am saying that, while run differential GENERALLY is a good predictor of team performance, and better than prior w/l, we shouldn’t just slam the door shut on alternative explanations.
right now, that’s what i’m seeing. it’s not shapiro’s fault. it’s not the bullpen’s fault. it’s not the mediocre defense. it’s bad luck.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s bad luck, the defense is lame, Shapiro has done a poor job in significant areas, and the bullpen sucks. All true.
Look, I’m not saying it’s all bad luck. And Shapiro is certainly not perfect. But can you blame him for Grady falling off a cliff so far this year? For Perez, who’s been great for two years, being absolutely horrible? And Lewis too? It’s not like he didn’t try to improve the bullpen.
by Buckeye Brad on May 20, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
i don’t blame shapiro for grady or for perez, or even really for jensen
i do blame him for the fact that we have NO viable late-innings relievers on staff at any level in the minors.
i do blame him for giving $57 million (or whatever it was) to a DH
i do think that, at some point, you have to say that bad results reflect poor decisionmaking, even if it looks great on the surface
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
This is 100% Monday morning quarterbacking on your part.
Its easy to look at a team that performs poorly and point out why they suck. Its a whole other issue to look at a team during the beginning of the season and predict where they will be weak.
Coming into this season no one looked at our bullpen and predicted a complete collapse. Did you?
Or were you like everyone else who thought that the addition of Wood and Smith would solidify our circle of trust? Did you anticipate Perez falling apart? Jlew forgetting how to pitch? Or were you like everyone else who thought our bullpen would be one of strengths?
If you don’t blame Shaprio for Jensen or Perez , do you blame him for Smith, Miller’s injury, or Betancourt being less than stellar? Because that’s the bullpen right there. And if you don’t blame him for any of those players I’m wondering why you blame him for the bullpen.
by world dictator on May 20, 2009 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions
you’ve missed my point. your central argument seems to be that since i personally did not foresee the collapse of the 2009 indians bullpen, or more broadly, since virtually nobody in the media/indians fandom foresaw this kind of collapse, i have no grounds to criticize shapiro for repeated bullpen failure.
i’d say you’re posing the wrong questions. the issue is not whether it was foreseeable to me and others that individual pitchers like perez, lewis, and betancourt would fail. the real questions are whether 1) shapiro and his staff are capable of evaluating bullpen arms (evidence is mounting that he is not) and whether 2) arms were adequately stockpiled to counter a predicted collapse/failure in the ‘pen (they apparently were not, and i would not say that miller’s injury was somehow unpredictable or unforeseeable—that would be ridiculous).
what do you want me to say? should i gauge shapiro’s performance against the conventional wisdom, that said our ’pen would be awesome? or should i gauge it against the actual results, which have been repeated failure in this one area of our team?
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 3:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i’d say you’re posing the wrong questions. the issue is not whether it was foreseeable to me and others that individual pitchers like perez, lewis, and betancourt would fail. the real questions are whether 1) shapiro and his staff are capable of evaluating bullpen arms (evidence is mounting that he is not)
No, projectability, or the ability to foresee, is the issue you’re missing.
Your argument boils down to “the bullpen performed badly, therefore the GM is at fault.”
Okay? And if I agree with your conclusion all that leaves me with is the question of why. what does that tell me? What useful information does that provide us with that will lead to better future decisions?
Hint, it doesn’t. And that’s the problem with your critique. You embrace the relatively easy job of telling us the bullpen sucks, the relatively easy job of pointing your finger, but then hide behind the “I’m a fan” card when it comes to explaining why.
But here’s what you miss. Talent evaluation is based on generalized conventional wisdom. The CW says Albert Pujos isn’t going to turn into a sub .200 hitter overnight, Prince Fielder isn’t going to randomly become a low power high contact hitter, and Baseball Tonight isn’t going to become a mecca for intellectual baseball conversation.
However, when it comes to the conventional wisdom of the bullpen everyone’s sort of clueless. Great relievers become horrible, horrible relievers become great. This is why the majority of baseball analyst can look at the Indians pen, before the season and find no faults. And yet once we begin to play we all suck. But even the conventional wisdom of bullpen volatility dictates that its highly unusually for several consistent pitchers to start sucking at the same time.
by world dictator on May 20, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
my argument is not “the bullpen performed badly, therefore the GM is at fault.” that is a convenient straw man, however.
my argument is summarized as such:
the bullpen has been abysmal three out of the last four seasons.
shapiro is charged with, among other duties, assembling a competent major league bullpen.
one year of failure does not necessarily indicate bad decisionmaking. three years of failure indicates to me that there is more than bad luck at play—that there are problems in shapiro’s process of evaluating, acquiring, and promoting relievers.
i cannot say exactly what those problems are, because i am not a professional baseball person. i suspect that part of the problem is a lack of hard-throwing strikeout pitchers in the minors. shapiro’s early drafts did not yield many productive major league players, and i fear that the bullpen situation is partially a by-product of these early drafts.
i think that it is fair for me to appraise shapiro’s performance as a GM by looking at his results, without necessarily being able to explain WHY he failed. if you are the CEO of a car company and one of your models explodes in a ball of flaming death every time it gets rear-ended, must you be able to understand the mechanical reasons why this is so before you fire the design team?
furthermore, should you take the designing engineer’s word that all the decisions concerning the design of the car were made correctly and rationally just because you yourself cannot see anything wrong with its schematics?
at some point, results have to matter, regardless of how enlightened and sensible the process giving rise to those results is.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay look, I’m not trying to be rude, but this argument is stupid.
No team is ever going to survive the top four arms in its bullpen under performing/being injured. (five if you include Wood). And whats even sillier is you don’t blame Shapiro for the pitchers inability to pitch.
What you blame Shapiro for is failing to have a secret stash of relief pitchers ready to step in in case one, our four, of our other pitchers fall apart.
But here’s the inconvenient truth you’re ignoring. There’s isn’t some magical tree of amazing relief pitchers lying around waiting for teams to grab them. Relief pitchers are entirely unpredictable. And any relief pitcher with even the slightest indication of future success is in high demand.
my argument is not "the bullpen performed badly, therefore the GM is at fault." that is a convenient straw man, however.
I would be interested to hear your definition of the term straw man because I assure you its not correct.
i suspect that part of the problem is a lack of hard-throwing strikeout pitchers in the minors. shapiro’s early drafts did not yield many productive major league players, and i fear that the bullpen situation is partially a by-product of these early drafts.
by world dictator on May 21, 2009 2:54 AM EDT up reply actions
creating a straw man argument = intentionally mischaracterizing my position to make it easier to argue against
that’s exactly what you did
i was arguing that shapiro’s REPEAT inability to assemble a quality big league bullpen indicates bad decisionmaking/evaluating in this area. that was clear. you tried to simplify that into “the bullpen performed badly, therefore the GM is at fault.” that’s not really a tenable position and you knew it, which is why you came up with it in the first place.
my argument has always hinged on the repeated failure of shapiro to assemble a bullpen. i still haven’t heard you explain why he shouldn’t be held accountable for his spectacular failure in this area. i think my metaphor about the car company CEO/exploding car pretty well represents my point. you’re trying to make this thing about the performance of a select few individual pitchers—whether they did or did not succeed, and whether shapiro can take the blame for that.
btw you sound like a real fricking douche, dude. if you’re going to argue, quit acting like all this is beneath you (i.e. with comments like “this argument is stupid”). especially since you have yet to refute my main point about shapiro’s accountability for his repeated failure to assemble a bullpen.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 21, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Great relievers become horrible, horrible relievers become great.
Is this true? Mariano Rivera has yet to become horrible, I think. And David Aardsma? I’d separate the extreme high and lows from this assertion. Okay relievers can become less than okay, and substandard relievers can have a good year.
i do think that, at some point, you have to say that bad results reflect poor decisionmaking, even if it looks great on the surface
Its like the situation with Wedge. Most people agree he’s not the cause of the Indians poor performance but a lot of people agree he needs to go in order to light a fire under the team.
If you were arguing that Shapiro needs to go in order to light a fire in the organization I’d be more willing to listen to your argument. But you’re not saying that, you’re saying Shapiro is a bad GM with little or no support besides “he’s not winning.” Yes, I agree that winning is important, but a GM can put their team in a position to win. Since we’ve started competing, Shapiro’s put the Indians in a great position to win every year.
by world dictator on May 20, 2009 3:08 AM EDT up reply actions
So let me get this straight. You’re not blaming Shapiro for his decision-making on Perez or Lewis or Betancourt, but you’re blaming him for his decision-making which has led to the bad results, which are happening, in no small part, because of . . . Perez, Lewis and Betancourt.
And I’d like to look at some context of the idea that there are no viable late-inning relievers. I agree that there doesn’t seem to be many arms that can help the pen right now, but how many guys are relievers in AA that can help a major league pen. Don’t the vast majority of legitimate bullpen guys get chances to prove they can be a starter first?
i’m not blaming shapiro for failing to predict that, as individual players, perez, lewis, and betancourt would fail. i’m blaming him for his misappraisal of the overall quality of the pen, if that makes sense, and his apparent conclusion that we could withstand a certain degree of failure among our current crop of relievers.
so even though shapiro shouldn’t have known that perez or jenny lewis were going to get blasted this year, he should have had some idea, especially given his past experience, that even “good” or “dependable” relievers are wont to fall off a cliff in any given season (especially when said relievers top out at 91 MPH and depend mostly on a deceptive delivery, rather than electric stuff, to get outs). i blame him for failing to assemble a bullpen that could withstand that kind of failure. part of that is a lack of suitable bullpen arms in AAA and AA, and that directly relates to an utter lack of hard-throwing strikeout pitchers in our system who could plausibly be converted to relievers.
and while this might sound like 20/20 hindsight, i’d like to point out that it isn’t my job to make sure all these decisions are made correctly. i am a fan; i have my own life, and my occupation is not the evaluation and acquisition of baseball players. shapiro’s is, and his repeated failure in this one area indicates that there is some information that he is missing/ignoring/incorrectly valuing when it comes to setting up his bullpens.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m not blaming shapiro for failing to predict that, as individual players, perez, lewis, and betancourt would fail. i’m blaming him for his misappraisal of the overall quality of the pen, if that makes sense, and his apparent conclusion that we could withstand a certain degree of failure among our current crop of relievers.
So you blame Shapiro for the bullpen as a whole failing but not for the individual pitchers which comprise the bullpen for failing? Um, yeah, Gotcha.
Miller
Meloan
Sipp
Perez
Betancourt
Lewis
Wood
Smith
Masa
Jackson
Between what we had in Cleveland and AAA, and what we acquired this bullpen seemed pretty stocked to me. How many other arms would Shaprio have had to acquire in order to qualify as “stocking the bullpen”?
by world dictator on May 20, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
out of that group you just listed, there are two guys—perez and wood—who coming into 2009, were widely considered to be legitimate, high-leverage relievers. another, jensen, had a spotty track record but held some promise. then you have listed old seeping finger miller, two guys who had a combined total of 9.1 IP above AAA, a ROOGY, and three other guys’ whose ability to record major league outs is/was very suspect.
did the pen look OK on paper? yeah, it looked like it would be fine. but even at the outset of the season, it was clear that if just one of perez, wood, or lewis flamed out a la betancourt in 2008, we would be in trouble. just listing these names does not impress me with shapiro’s ability to assemble a contending bullpen—only three of the names listed had a track record of being able to get major leaguers out.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
out of that group you just listed, there are two guys—perez and wood—who coming into 2009, were widely considered to be legitimate, high-leverage relievers. another, jensen, had a spotty track record but held some promise. then you have listed old seeping finger miller, two guys who had a combined total of 9.1 IP above AAA, a ROOGY, and three other guys’ whose ability to record major league outs is/was very suspect.
You’re shifting your argument. Orginally you said Shapiro didn’t have quality relief prospects in the minors:
i suspect that part of the problem is a lack of hard-throwing strikeout pitchers in the minors.
Now you’re saying “oh those players didn’t have major league experience”. Which is it?
by world dictator on May 21, 2009 3:00 AM EDT up reply actions
dude
READ
“part of the problem”
you basically wanted me to give specific criticisms of what shapiro has done wrong. i said that was ONE THING i could point to, not a but-for cause of the bullpen’s failure. i believe shapiro’s draft failures are possibly one reason why he has struggled to put together league-average bullpen, not the only reason.
it’s not an either/or situation. good drafting could have given us quality arms capable of recording major league outs.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 21, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Cap, do you remember the way the White Sox came out of the gate in 2005? Everything went their way. Bounces, breaks, everything. They were a relatively good team that got career years at the same time from three players (I’m guessing, so don’t quote me). A team that may not have been better than the 2009 Indians went on a tear in one of the most incredible displays of good fortune I’ve ever seen. It lasted through the postseason. It was like sitting at a roulette table and winning red 20 times in a row. If the Indians didn’t play under the aegis of Joe Bftsplk, they too might have had a lucky run, a year where Mark DeRosa OPS’s .875 and Vinnie Chulk catches lightning in a bottle.
of course that was a dream season for them
just like that season a few years ago, where a couple of middling bullpen arms named raffy emerged to destroy AL lineups in late innings, and where a meatballer named jobo saved 45 games despite having a 3434543.23 WHIP.
luck is always going to play a role. but what frustrates me is that this team has been crippled coming out of the gate for three seasons where we could have caught fire and won it all. crippled by the very same problem—a spectacularly bad bullpen.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on May 20, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
No, you’d choo-choo-choose him.
Alright, we’ve got five guys. We can probably get about $2.99 a pound for the carcasses of the rest of those bastards after they’re executed. Maybe that will be enough to put in a waiver claim on the next guy the Nationals part ways with. Certainly couldn’t make the team any worse.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on May 19, 2009 11:04 PM EDT reply actions
Argh, meant to be a reply to mjmarble above.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on May 19, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
puttin my money on this being the losingest team in indians history…100+ losses…at least this season could be remembered for something…
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions
Agreed
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on May 19, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
OK … don’t want to start anything here.
BUT … does anyone think Lee and Wedge were having a “disagreement” about him coming out of the game?
I’m sure Lee respects Wedge and Wood too much to pull something like that. I wouldn’t blame him if he’s currently pissed at Wood, however.
I dunno either way … just wanted to gauge opinion.
The conversation looked long … but couldn’t tell if it was testy or not.
And I sure didnt see the “shake hands, pat on the back, good game” moment.
by FallsTribeFan on May 19, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t see how there wouldn’t be arguments in the clubhouse at this point. In fact, if there aren’t, there’s something wrong with this makeup.
by supermarioelia on May 19, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 19, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
um cavs?
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Hundreds of thousands of Cleveland sports fans who have been waiting for a championship their whole life, that’s who.
by Buckeye Brad on May 19, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
This
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 20, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m a Cleveland sports fan and couldn’t possibly care less. But then I’m really bitter right now.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
Well then you’re certainly in the minority. The Cavs are a heck of a lot of fun to watch (even if you’re not a basketball fan), have the best player in the game, and have a very good chance of winning the title. What else do you need to get excited about?
by Buckeye Brad on May 20, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m with you. When the Cavs win, it will feel nice, but nothing to lessen the pain of being a fan of the woeful Cleveland Indians.
The Indians were my first sports love, and nothing will really match them winning a WS if they are ever able to do it.
Despite my dislike for the NBA, I am really getting into the potential of the Cavs winning it. However, the Cleveland sports fan in me knows that there is no sure thing
For me it’s the Browns first, Tribe second. The Cavs are an afterthought. That being said, I am warming up to jumping on the bandwagon about halfway through their sweep of the Magic.
by NickFantana on May 20, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I feel the same about the Browns, but even I could enjoy a Super Bowl championship. It’s just good for the city, and that’s what’s most important to me.
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 20, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you serious?
Look, I love baseball more than anything else, by far, but if you can’t enjoy another Cleveland championship, there’s something wrong.
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 20, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
and they’ll likely only score in 10 of them
by clusterchuck on May 19, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No no no. You need to look at the glass as half full. Those nice considerate boys in the uniforms freed up most of your summer by concentrating their failures into a relatively short span of time, rather than dragging them out and breaking you heart with a bad 20-game stretch sometime in August.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on May 19, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
But it won’t hurt as much when they (inevitably) lose, because you know that it won’t make the difference between the making the playoffs or not.
Except that, just to be really cruel, they’ll go on a crazy 23-7 run sometime in late July/early August just to make you think they’re getting back into it. And then they’ll enjoy another plate of fail.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on May 19, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I’m going to have the most productive baseball season ever…
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
by jerseywahoo on May 19, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 19, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
You could run a blog about the Cleveland economy. It might be a little bit more positive environment.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
by jerseywahoo on May 19, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
obviously you prefer winning, but there’s a certain cathartic quality in putting down and ridiculing your team…
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
As much as I’m into basktball now, it’s gonna suck during the summer. In a way, it’s kinda good. Maybe I’ll actually get myself working in grad school this summer.
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 19, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Or a game thread where we talk about anything but the game.
by woodsmeister on May 19, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
As bad as I feel, I can imagine what a nightmare this must be for Grady and Vic.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
Yeah, and Jhonny. And how did I leave out Lee?
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on May 19, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m going to see the Hangover tomorrow. So I got that going for me, which is nice.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
There’s a commercial on right now on Comedy Central for this movie.
by NickFantana on May 19, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Given my mood and your mood, you could be a lot ruder, if you wanted to be.
by NickFantana on May 19, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m trying to figure out how this transitional period in my life relates to the Indians’ failure so I can subject you all to that trite nonsense.
Does anyone think Wedge will really be fired soon? I mean, really believe it? I know we want it, but does anyone really believe it?
Somehow deep down I think the only way to rid the team of Wedge is to also rid the team of Shapiro.
by FallsTribeFan on May 19, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
and somehow deep down that’s looking like less and less of a problem to me
by clusterchuck on May 19, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t believe that it will happen before the allstar break. even then i think it will likely happen after this season
by clusterchuck on May 19, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Just right now I wish we’d be conventional. Just fire him and hire some old baseball guy. Get out of way.
Jack Mckeown or whatever that guy’s name is. He’s still alive, maybe?
Maybe Buck Showalter. He spent 2007 as a special assistant to Shapiro.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on May 19, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is a realistic possibility and not a bad idea.
by NickFantana on May 19, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Jack currently lives in Elon, North Carolina.
Our only hint from Wikipedia….
by NickFantana on May 19, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve driven through Elon. This should be easy. Who’s got a tape deck with a recorder? This American-Indian Life is going on the road.
I’ve got friends there. Let’s do it.
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 19, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I just can’t see Shapiro firing Wedge anytime soon. I wish he would.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on May 19, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Et tu Twitchy Wolfman?
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Man, looks great until the middle of the ninth inning and then … fweeeeeeee!
--
Force quit and move to trash.
They should have two rows:
Regular Baseball Team Win%: 95%
Indians Win%: 25%
by Buckeye Brad on May 20, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Thought it would be a fun time to post this quote from Eric Wedge regarding possible trades:
Said manager Eric Wedge, “I’ve heard that talk and it’s crazy. This division is still wide open. If we get on a roll, we’re right back in the thick of it.”
One of them mythical 3 game winning streaks.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on May 19, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
that be dangerous talk around these here parts…
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Lightning bolt patches and Hafner leaves his wife.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
where is he anyway? still on his Australian walkabout tour i suppose?
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
would it be obvious if they operated on his left elbow?
by clusterchuck on May 19, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Proof that no one knows anything about baseball
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 19, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
fast forward about a year and a half…“Kerry Wood with the 1,2,3 ninth to win Game 7 of the World Series…” a guy can dream can’t he?
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
ouch…
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions
No offense meant. This lose has just convinced me that I will never live to see to see the Indians win the World Series. Not even if I find the Fountain of Youth. Who knows how long the rebuild will take, and then you have a, what, 15% chance of success and if you miss (2007) you’re going to have to start all over again.
I hate this.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on May 19, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet someone in 1996 that the Indians would win the World Series before 2020. It sounded like easy money for me at the time. Now I’m not so sure.
Juan Salas: Smartest man in baseball?
Sometimes, I just like to b****.
by emd2k3 on May 19, 2009 11:34 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Wow ! How far the Indians have fallen.
The fire sale will occur just after the all star break. The discussion on these boards has, and will continue to turn as to who we keep and who gets traded.
Please. At least keep Sizemore, Victor, and Cabrera.
by SpringTrainingFun on May 19, 2009 11:35 PM EDT reply actions
the fact that we have to have a fire sale when we are out of contention still bugs me…
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
unless your name is Billy Beane. in this case, you must also trade for a Holliday-like guy when you don’t have much shot at going anywhere, too.
FE WEE
the fact that we have to trade our best talent for prospects who may or may not turn into great talents who, if they are, will be traded again when we are out of contention because we apparently have no money annoys the crap outta me…
The Cleveland Indians: Minor League Farm Team Affiliate of the MLB
by HireRockyColavito on May 19, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Can we please stop this now? I don’t want to go through this all again . . .
by Buckeye Brad on May 20, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. I’m hoping and praying for the Nuggets to win this series. It would create the possibility of me seeing a Cleveland championship in person.
Il faut d'abord durer.
That’s a good point! I think the Cavs are going to win it all regardless of who they play, but it’ll be more fun if they beat the Nuggets. I’m from Boulder, BTW.
That loose ball that ended up in the Odom tip-some Laker just got slammed by a diving nugget.
And before that, the Nene wrap-up on Pau was laughable. He was just holding him.
I can’t tell if I dislike Jack Nicholson because of the Lakers or if I dislike the Lakers because of Jack Nicholson.
Il faut d'abord durer.
Oh yeah
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 19, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad to be living on the West Coast
Can drink over this for 4 hours and still get 8 hours sleep
Len Barker perfect game attendee
Will do
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 19, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
My visit to Seattle showed me four of the better days I’ve ever spent. I’m still looking back at it. It was 6 years ago. 6 whole years. Damn.
Amazing place when the weather is good
Better than average when it is not
Move to Portland a couple months back. It is also excellent.
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 19, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t help but think that we didn’t HAVE to leave Wood out there after HR, HR, Walk.
Len Barker perfect game attendee
right. and who do you bring in? if you can’t have confidence in wood with a 3 run lead against the royals, whom do you call upon?
by clusterchuck on May 19, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t care what the guys name is, contract is, role is.
He had nothing. He was single handedly blowing the game.
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 19, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he had nothing. I mean, as far as I can tell, Wood’s stuff is intact. At least he’s still throwing very hard.
Now, pitch selection.
Hard and over the plate when all you are showing is hard = nothing in MLB at times. Tonight was one of those times.
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 19, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Can we blame Wedge for that? Seriously.
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 19, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it was all fastballs—I think 10 straight between Jacobs and Teahen—until Olivo, and then he goes, “oh, well these aren’t working, guess I should try my breaking stuff.” And he throws those for balls, falls behind and loses him.
That’s when I knew where this one was going to end up.
In the PD recap, Wood said he had no command on any secondary pitch.
by NickFantana on May 19, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I certainly don’t intend that to be a de facto end to the conversation, I just wanted to add a little depth.
by NickFantana on May 20, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Swine flu is an epidemic.
Our bullpen? It’s a plague.
by jayme on May 20, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
100% agree. It’s a group of pitchers who have forgotten how to pitch.
by NickFantana on May 20, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
not arguing with you. i just don’t know who you go to in that scenario. i mean, the winning run is already at the plate following the BB.
by clusterchuck on May 19, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Betancourt. He might lose it but you are trying something. Not just falling on the sword of some stupid tradition that says closers must finish games.
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 19, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re not accounting for timeline. You’ve got to get Raffy up and warm pretty fast to actually have him ready for Bloomquist, let alone DeJesus.
There are plenty of ways to buy time
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 19, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I know I’ve been saying this a lot lately but it just feels like forest for the trees. If Wood can’t close out that game and we have to resort to hijinks to hope that Betancourt (Betancourt?!?) can somehow provide a miracle, well…it doesn’t matter. None of this matters.
by afh4 on May 20, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed. however, it’s bad when we think that betancourt preventing the tying run from scoring from 1st is a miracle
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s bad when we think that betancourt preventing the tying run from scoring from 1st is a miracle.
Well, it’s true. The run scores eight out of ten times.
is that true? 8 of 10 seems very high. Jay said that Garko’s probability of scoring from second on Sunday was only 60 %
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
There’s baseball probability and there’s Indians baseball probability. One should not get the two confused.
by woodsmeister on May 20, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I really don’t think it’s realistic to get Raffy in for DeJesus. From my perception, you can’t get a reliever up after back to back jacks with one out to replace what is obviously your best relief pitcher; the walk might be a tipping point to get somebody up but I still think Wood faces DeJesus.
What’s more incredible is that if we could’ve gotten anybody in, I think it might’ve been Aquino.
Wilis definitely said during that visit “you have thrown 10 straight fastballs you better mix it up”
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
i agree with your initial point that if our closer can’t close out a game under the best of conditions, then what is the point. i’m not suggesting they should have went with raffy.
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Uli doesn’t care about anything. He’s a nihilist.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on May 20, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It matters to me when you are evaluating a manager in crisis. Is he going to think creatively or is he gonna be a spectator? Is he going to show his team that he will make a tough decision to try to win a ballgame or is he gonna go by the book?
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
So, what, we want a creative manager? What, is he going to watercolor his way into some wins?
We need players to make plays. Fire Wedge, sure. I don’t care. But nobody’s going to fix this team through creative strategy.
by afh4 on May 20, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You’re right, do nothing.
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Fire him. Fire away. But don’t act like some new manager is going to somehow change what this team does strategically.
Maybe a new manager can simply motivate the players to play better but he’s not going to start managing in some innovative way. No managers manage in innovative ways.
I mean, LaRussa batting a pitching 8th is considered SHOCKING!
Yeah. Wow. Earth shattering.
What, because he’s going to come back and argue that he was firing was unjustified? WTF? This has be YEARS – YEARS in the making john. He needs to go, he needs to go now. Someone needs to take the fall for this absolute frackstorm (edited 5 times for family friendlier words) of a season. I’d rather blame Wedge than start trading our talented players away.
Will firing Wedge save our season? Of course not, but it will be the first step towards fixing the team.
Wedge does not deserve an apologist.
I just wanted to believe.
For a little while. We have to wait and see how bad it gets. Once we really know how bad we are, then we’ll have a better idea about how to proceed.
How bad are we? We will know soon enough.
Worst team in the American League
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I think in a crisis most people take refuge in certainty. They do what they’re supposed to do. Wedge is feeling the heat and doesn’t want to overreact. He did the right thing.
agreed. wedge will either a) keep his job by having his guys do their jobs or b) lose his job
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Really?
Grady batting second
LaPorta at 1B
Peralta at 3B
Garko in the outfield
That is his guys doing their jobs?
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, you have a good point. but i’ve not been one promoting him switching up the lineup. i like the idea of grady batting 1st and don’t promote playing garko in the OF under any circumstances. I do like the move of Jhonny to 3B and LaPorta 1B because that is what will likely happen in the future.
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
in a round about way you’re making my point. This constant shuffling of lineups is not the answer, in my opinion
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe it is. I think it shows some outside the box thinking which as others have said is not something easy to find in baseball. Others would argue that people need consistency. I don’t know anything for sure beyond that it exhibits some admittance that things are not working and we are gonna try to find something that will work better. In many avenues outside baseball that thinking is applauded. In baseball people freak about change and cling to things that make no sense.
The in game events today showed he is only willing to take that so far. I think he could argue he has license to take it further since the team needs to do anything they can to try to win ballgames
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
i hear what you’re saying. i am not against “outside the box thinking” but there has to be some sort of logic behind it.
playing garko in the OF, to me, defies logic; especially if you have a guy (DeRosa) who has played a significant number of inningsin LF is instead playing garko’s position.
Change for the sake of change is not a good thing.
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree. I think the positional stuff has been too much except for Peralta to 3B. Not doing that would have been sticking to your guns too much.
For me you find the changes that make sense and you make them. Not all of his have made sense.
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed. and pulling your closer when he hasn’t had a chance to save a game in over 3 weeks, would not have made sense, especially given the time it would have taken to get another pitcher up and ready. that is the point i’m trying to make. “thinking outside the box” does not include losing faith in your closer at the point your suggesting (hr, hr, bb) especially when he hasn’t seen a save situation in so long.
If this was the rash thinking used in 2007, borowski would not have had 45 saves…
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
So pulling a pitcher who has no secondary pitch and is throwing meaty fastballs is over-reacting?
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
he’s the closer and hasn’t seen a save situation this month. you have to let him close it out. it’s not like he had the heart of the order coming up.
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
I hear ya.
Too many have to-s in baseball sometimes
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
For Betancourt? For Aquino?
It’d be one argument if there was a shut down Raffy P sitting in the bullpen. But there’s nobody.
There’s basically 75% of single good pitcher in the bullpen and Wood is probably 37.5% of that single good pitcher.
Not on this night he wasn’t. That matters, IMO
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s straight by-the-book. Lose with your best. If Wedge had yanked Wood and brought in Betancourt & Raffy gave up a three-run jack, people would be apoplectic.
If Wedge said “Kerry had nothing on his curve and slider I am not leaving him in there to blow this game. We need wins and he wasn’t getting people out so I yanked his ass” he would earn my respect.
This win with player X even when the evidence is that they are not doing the jobis BS
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that would have been cool. But, really, how was he supposed to get Betancourt warmed up and in to pitch? He should start throwing after the second homer? You have to have time to get him up and loose.
I’m ready! Let’s start.
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 20, 2009 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
But it would have showed a will to win
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on May 19, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Tidbits? Is this what we look forward to in 2009?
There is a Santa Claus, and he’s in Detroit on May 2nd
by Clevo's Finest on May 20, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Yea in a sense. Something like
-Victor punched out the entire bullpen
or
-Wedge got fired
by Roger Dorn on May 20, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why in God’s name did Lee come out of this game? He wasn’t in trouble, wasn’t labouring and hadn’t thrown some egregious number of pitches. Why not leave him out there and avoid this? I know Wood is “the closer” and all but this is the kind idiotic management that gets people fired.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
yea, I wanted Lee to stay in. Didn’t really think there was anything to worry about though, like Wedge probably thought. I said something similar in a game against the Rays, but at this point why should we ever go to the pen when we normally would in the past. We shoudl be doing everything possible to extend the starters past what they normally do
What is the point of having a closer if you don’t put him in up by three runs against the Kansas City Freakin’ Royals? All this time, we’ve lamented the lack of a serious closer, and now we’re second-guessing putting Wood in the game for the exact situation we’re paying him all that money for? Even Mariano Rivera has occasionally been lit up (Bill Selby, anyone?).
by woodsmeister on May 20, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Are you serious? Lee was in complete control of that game. You don’t have a closer to waste him on three run leads against the Royals when one of the best pitchers in the game is still under 100 pitches. It was an absolutely idiotic move.
Lee retired the side in the eighth with little effort and Wedge chose to lift him because he manages to the stat, not the situation. It’s indefensibly moronic. I mean, seriously? This is Jensen Lewis, Masa Kobayashi, other crappy pitchers territory. You don’t get a closer for that game and you certainly don’t go to him in this situation unless you lack a basic understanding of how the game has progressed.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
He was on a roll, but before that I thought that was the worst he had thrown in the last 6 or 7 starts. Relatively speaking, of course.
Look, if you leave him in and have to bring in Wood during a rally, that’s a less desirable position to be in. If you push Lee to 115-120 pitches, then do you do that again in five days? How about the next start? Wood hadn’t had a save opportunity in nearly three weeks and this is about the easiest save situation you can have. He’s been erratic with the command lately (yes, this would be a reason to not have him pitch), so let’s try to get him in a rhythm and go from there.
I understood the move and probably would’ve done the same, though I would’ve thought about it. Indefensibly moronic? That’s ridiculous and way over the top, and sounds like it’s coming from someone who’s already predisposed to the opinion that the manager should be fired. I believe that most any manager that has faith in his closer would make that move.
I’ve actually defended Wedge for a very long time, you can go back and look it up. This, to me, is the one that broke the camel’s back. Lee was good, he was throwing 65% of his pitches for strikes and hadn’t walked a batter. It was a horrible decision and the result bore that out.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
That’s fine, but if Wedge had been fired Monday and someone new was in the dugout last night, I bet there was an 80% chance that the new manager would’ve done the exact same thing. And therefore, it wasn’t indefensibly moronic.
Like I said, there’s an argument to be made, but how you made it ruined it for me and made it so I wouldn’t even consider your argument.
This isn’t real. It’s all fixed. It would be absolutely false to say that those of us diehards were the only ones that thought this team would be good. Is good. If the Tribe has a fire sale tomorrow, everyone team in baseball would be banging down the door. And yet they’ve lost 26 out of the first 40, on pace for 104 losses.
Oh, and Wedge is not making it to the end of the season, or the all-star break. People are basing that on Shapiro and Dolan’s past loyalty, but this is a totally different situation. A historically bad season after a bad one. It’s just around the corner….
I’m like Wedge now, just randomly trying new things, going in the opposite direction of everything I’ve learned. I’ve got nothing.
by dgcambridge on May 20, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve learned something this season. Bullpens aren’t volatile, our bullpen just sucks. We got a career year out of 2 of them in 2007 that fooled us all into thinking bullpens are volatile
Ha, this
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 20, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
So I’m also wondering what the economic impact to the Indians is if 60 home games are played without the possibility of a winning season. I know we’re not quite to that point but we could go back to Cleveland something like 14-15 games under .500 and 10 games out of 1st.
Hard to believe many people would come out to see a team in that position, especially if they don’t make a big change, like firing Wedge. If they did that and the team played a little better, you might get some people to come out and see the new team.
Even then, no. The casual fan still adheres to “Dolan is cheap” and probably won’t come just because Wedge got fired. The W-L record is going to make attendance get really bad, not to mention the current economy. I am fearful for the potential repercussions if attendance drops too low
I’m worried about the economic impact having an impact on the personnel. If the fancy computer box that spit out the variable pricing model for tickets says attendance is going to be worse than expected, guys may be traded for 40 cents on the dollar just to pick up an extra 60 cents.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
don't worry, sir
Rizzo tinkers because he must. Even if the Nationals would be a .500 team with a halfway decent bullpen – and thanks to their offensive might, they would – reality is that they’re playing .300 baseball and the favorite to choose No. 1 again next year.
"I don’t ever want this pick again," Rizzo said.
FE WEE
Yeah, the thing that gets me is, our pen is a mix of approaches: we have the expensive closer, traded for guy who was successful on another team last year, kept our best guys from the previous two years, brought up the young arm, picked through a number of scrap heap auditions, used a middling starter, brought in a closer from Japan. Even transferred a young starting pitcher with awesome stuff and he turned to suck immediately. Really, all these things were wrong. ALL of them? The only thing that has worked so far is using a better-than-middling starter. Do other teams really have a dozen of those guys sitting around?
by dgcambridge on May 20, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
we can find solice in the fact that trevor hoffman would not yet had 10 save opps
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
or he would have not pitched at all (keith foulke). I don’t blame the FO for not going after Hoffman. The fact is if you replace wood with hoffman, he still wouldn’t have had 10 save opps, so he couldn’t be 10 for 10.
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s my point, you can’t blame them for going for Wood over Hoffman. It defies logic what is going on with the Indians. That’s why I am not ready to blame the front office. The Indians were favored by a lot of smart people to win the division, it goes beyond the roster construction
i agree with you to an extent that it is not roster constructive. however, we’ve seen teams that are talented (and impartial experts would agree) continue to fall flat on their face right out of the gate. It may sound crazy, but there was another thread yesterday discussing the mental aspect of baseball. I’m not saying this is it, I’m not saying this isn’t it. But at some point, when we continue to defy logic, it certainly makes you wonder….
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Life is not fair?
Try Edward Mujica with 19.1 IP, 3.26 ERA, 0.98 WHiP, 17k, and 5 HLD. I’d take that in our bullpen. And he was ours just a month and a half ago. Hoffman was never ours.
I just wanted to believe.
First Manager Fired in the NL and AL during the 2009 season
by jayme on May 20, 2009 12:52 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Okay, so the Indians’ FO must be close to throwing in the towel. The season may be irreparably damaged. It’s not for sure, but it’s close. The team has to be considering what to do if they punt. Do they actually do something wild like trade Victor? I don’t think so, because the PR damage would be profound. But what else can be done? DeRosa, perhaps. Who else can be moved?
DeRosa is a certainty
Jhonny. Shoppach. Pavano.
Maybe Garko if they can find a taker, but I wouldn’t expect much of anything in return
depends. are we assuming straight roster dump, or staffing? if wedge is gone, i could see marte getting another shot based on his numbers in cbus
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
DeRo to Cubs for Stevens, Gaub and Archer.
by jayme on May 20, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s just, position player prospects are a lot easier for teams to move at the deadline than ML-ready arms. Mid-season buyers are teams that believe themselves to be contenders. Contenders need pitching. So I just don’t see us getting arms for DeRosa. And if we’re not getting pitching, why trade him? He’s Casey Blake 2.0, without the Wedge love affair, so he gets deployed as Casey ought to have been.
Unless you have no interest in re-signing him. I kind of do.
by fleerdon on May 20, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
No interest.
I hear what you’re saying about arms, but I don’t think it’s as simple as saying that contenders will already be using any decent pitchers. (acknowledging that we aren’t talking about aces or potential aces, of course). I think there are plenty of times when teams have a young arm that’s back and forth, or knocking on the door. Reyes and Jackson are our most recent examples.
betancourt, wood, peralta, garko, shoppach, carroll
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
And what happens for 2010 if you unload all those guys? Who’s your closer? Or would you be punting on 2010?
I think that we’re pushing the envelope if we anticipate betancourt being a large factor out of the pen in 2009. based on his slide last year and this year, I am hard pressed to believe we will ever see 2007 betancourt again.
as for wood, if the offer is right, i would move him. i was not a big fan of his signing from the get go.
garko/shoppach would be a one or the other trade. if we get a better deal for shoppach (say another starting catcher goes down) we trade shoppach. I can realistically see a team trading for a right handed bat like garkos
peralta is an outlier. I wouldn’t want to see him go, but he could really help a team down the stretch this year and i think the value he does have as a SS might make him more valuable to another club, and they might pay for it. Depending on if Cabrera can sustain through the break and Valbuena’s progression, i would say the middle of our infield is fairly solid.
i don’t think you’re punting in 2010 by trading any of these guys. I’m not necessarily saying we trade them all, the question was who else can be moved. i think it’s more of a punt to get rid of martinez of lee
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I’d say if you move Wood or Jhonny, you’re punting. Betancourt won’t reap much, as I guess most people know he’s not going back to 2007. You’re probably not going to get major-league-ready players for any of the players you mention other than Peralta and Wood. But then who’s your closer? And you’ll have a question mark at third base.
After seeing Rickie Weeks went down with a season-ending injury, I started having this vision that the Brewers will acquire DeRosa. For whom? I don’t know. But I really do feel that DeRosa will end up with the Brewers.
We’ve pretty much blown that keg, and the Brewers wouldn’t trade us arms.
by fleerdon on May 20, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Good night. Not much more to say, except I’m starting to suspect that I might not see that $20 I put down in Vegas on the Tribe winning the AL Pennant again.
Il faut d'abord durer.
Still 122 games to go. That shouldn’t depress me.
I don’t blame Wedge for last night, but I’m now on board for throwing him overboard.
So who do we want as a replacement? How about no nonsense guy like Showalter?
I don’t blame Wedge for last night
Why not? He took a starter that was in control of the game out and handed it over to our bullpen. How is that his fault?
I become an expert simply by doing something.
He took out Cliff at over 100 pitches and brought in Kerry Wood. This is a completely defensible move and THE RIGHT MOVE. Kerry just blew it.
I don’t totally agree. We need to quit acting like this bullpen is normal. We need to start treating games abormally in the sense that we should be stretching starters beyond their normal limits. Cliff certainly has the ability to get up to 115-120 and be okay
i agree that the bullpen is not “normal”, but the only way it will stabilize is through success. if kerry wood can’t earn a save with a 3 run lead we have bigger problems than losing one game. i’m not a huge wedge fan, but i totally agree with pulling lee under the circumstances
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I want to win every game we have an opportunity to win. If Cliff can finish the game, then he should do it. Let Wood blow another game where the starter has gone beyond his limits already
i understand what you’re saying, but i don’t think wood has given him an indication that he would blow a 3 run lead. going into the game he’s only had 6 save opps and closed 5 of them. i think you’re going to be hard pressed to find a manager in the majors that would have kept lee in with a 3 run lead in a non-shutout situation. if the score was 6 – 2 or 4 – 0 i believe lee would have pitched the 9th.
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
You are looking at saves which I find to be a meaningless stat. I see Wood’s other numbers and think he is not too different than the rest of them so far this season
i don’t disagree. W’s are what count. the message that would have been sent if they had not sent wood out for the save is this: we’ve already lost confidence in you 6 save opps into a $22 million contract. i understand that saves are may be a little overvalued, but evidently the FO doesn’t think so or they wouldn’t have made signing a closer their top priority last offseason. this is exactly why they paid him to come to cleveland. to say on may 19th that he is incapable of closing out a game with a 3 run lead undermines the entire purpose of having him on this roster.
i think that had wood closed out the game, it would have been a non issue. if he shut down the royals last night, you wouldn’t be on here saying “yeah they won, but they really should have kept lee in the game”.
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
No, the message would have been “we trust our very best pitcher to get a simple three outs with a three run lead.” Instead, Wedge yanked the rug out from under Lee and managed to the salary and the stat. And yes, if they had won there would still be a bunch of us saying Lee should have stayed in the game, just like we did when it happened.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
I want to win every game we have an opportunity to win. If Cliff can finish the game, then he should do it. Let Wood blow another game where the starter has gone beyond his limits already
I want to win every game too, which is why I take the long long season ahead of us into consideration. Its also worth noting that if Lee had been brought out for the ninth and gave up a couple of runs, you would probably be equally upset with Wedge for leaving Lee in.
by world dictator on May 20, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I would not have been upset if Wedge let Lee try and finish. There was nothing to indicate to me that he was tiring
I really don’t think it’s a huge deal to let Lee throw 120 pitches once to close out a game. If we ran a streak of 4-5 straight, then I might get worried, but once is not gonna do it.
If we start stretching starters beyond their normal limits in order to win games now, what happens in August and September when our starters are totally fried?
by woodsmeister on May 20, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
We will have traded them by then. What do we care?
-Erik
by drerikbrady on May 20, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
No, that’s the wrong move. It’s by the book, brainless, cleveland.com management. It’s a three run lead against a mediocre offense. Cliff had thrown 101 pitches and hadn’t been under much stress all night. It was a game-alteringly bad decision to take him out.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
If there were a line
Where I could pay $5 to punch Kerry Wood Mark Shapiro and Eric Wedge in the groin. I bet the ATM right next to it would be out of cash and the line would have an hour wait.
But, I would find another ATM and stand in line as long as it took to get my punches in.
You might want to sit down for this...
Borowski 08 (on June 19th)
12 IP : 16 Hits : 10 ER : .975 OPS : 7.50 ERA : W/L 0-2 : 5 SV
Wood 09 (today)
13 IP : 16 Hits : 12 ER : 1.037 OPS : 8.31 ERA : W/L 0-2 : 5 SV
by Toxicadam on May 20, 2009 9:07 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Just wow
I'm *always* in the driver's seat, cugino -- Chuck
by Turkmenbashi on May 20, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Just tell the team it’s over and there’s no hope. Worked pretty well last year.
by fleerdon on May 20, 2009 11:42 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
i feel your pain, but i think we might as well get used to it….
by clusterchuck on May 20, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Firing Eric Wedge will do nothing. There are worse guys out there to have than Eric Wedge.
Here’s the facts: Until the players stop preforming at their ~20% Exp level, no amount of shuffling, firing or promoting/demoting is going to help.
I disagree. Under your logic, the manager is never to blame. I don’t buy the argument that it doesn’t matter if he’s there or not so we should keep him. The team he is responsible for, and he is responsible just like he was when he got credit and the MOY a few years ago, sucks. It is underperforming… AGAIN. And it’s happening for the 3rd year out of 4. At some point you have to take note of the pattern that is established. Teams under Wedge are p***-poor early in the season and only seem to truly perform well when there is no expectations or pressure. He is at best a .500 manager (which coincides with his record).
He needs to be fired. And fired now.
This is the FO’s most glaring weakness – the relationship between Shapiro and Wedge. It’s bit us in the arse on multiple occasions before and it’s biting us there again. Fire Wedge.
I just wanted to believe.
I’m actually surprised that fans who follow this team day-to-day don’t think that there will be any good done by switching managers. It seems like such a strict adherence to observational truths, that we can’t realize there might be more than meets the eye.
My thoughts on our losing ways....
Don’t blame it on Eric Wedge or the coaching staff.
…. where’s the good hitting been?
…. as for the crappy Bullpen, I’ve seen better in High School.
…. unfortunately, I think we’re in for another long season!!!
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