Woolner with '64 and Counting

Vince over at '64 and Counting had an opportunity to do a piece on Keith Woolner, the Indians' stat guy who came to the corner of Carnegie and Ontario via B-Pro.

It's an extremely well-written piece full of insight, despite the Polo Shirt Mafia's proclivity to keep things close to the collar.

almost 3 years ago The DiaTriber 13 comments 0 recs |

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I’ll just take this opportunity to say, Vince has been running a stunningly good blog over there, with giant heaps of insight and useful links. For an all-sports Cleveland perspective, might be the best one-site-only homepage you could have.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on May 6, 2009 1:27 PM EDT reply actions

There are some areas in which Woolner provides opinions that are at least mildly surprising. For instance, manager Eric Wedge seems like a by-the-book kind of guy. But Wedge has sought out Woolner’s opinion — though, of course, Woolner can’t go into specifics — when asked about hypotheticals involving perhaps moving a player from shortstop to third, or from the leadoff spot to third in the lineup.

Color me confused by the notion that it is even midly surprising that Wedge utilizes sabermetrics. Knowing the front office’s reliance on sabermeterics should be enough to tell you that the manager must use them. Grady Little largely got fired from the Red Sox for ignoring sabermetrics. An Oakland manager (I forget which) got fired for not using sabermetrics.

If that isn’t enough then watching Wedge’s strategic moves for any length of time should tell you Wedge utilizes sabermetrics.

Even more puzzling is the strange notion that there is an inconsitenacy between being by the book manager and sabermetrics. Just the opposite is true. By the “book” for years has been descriptive of managing by the percentages. Much of sabermetrics is about improving the quantification of percentages.

by JenniferMarie on May 7, 2009 3:05 PM EDT reply actions

An Oakland manager (I forget which) got fired for not using sabermetrics.

Art Howe

by Roger Dorn on May 7, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions

That isn’t my recollection. I thought he basically just held out for more money, and Beane wouldn’t budge because he considers managers to be fungible.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on May 7, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions

As I said I don’tremember who the manager was. My recollection though is that I read it in Moneyball.I don’t have a copy of it handy but you or someone else with a copy can check up on my memory.

As to Little he was long on the hot seat before Martinez because of his failure to use the stats he was receiving from the front office. My source here is Seth Mnookin’s Feeding the Monster: How Money, Smarts, and Nerve Took a Team to the Top
Mnookin had the kinda of access to the Sox (if not more) that Pluto had in writing Dealing.

by JenniferMarie on May 7, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions

Oops I clicked the wrong button.

I had intended to finish the post by noting the book gives some insights into Bill James’ role with the team including mentioning a few of the special studies he did.

by JenniferMarie on May 7, 2009 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, that was my understanding with Little as well.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on May 7, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions

Yea that sounds right actually. I think Howe wanted more money and Beane laughed in his face

by Roger Dorn on May 7, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Kind of similar to how I picture the Charlie Manuel – Shapiro confrontation

by Roger Dorn on May 7, 2009 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions

Nah. Shapiro isn’t blunt that way, and he isn’t cruel to his employees.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on May 7, 2009 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions

and he isn’t cruel to his employees

Just to the fans.

CLEVELANDZ.COMZ RULZ!

by APV on May 8, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions

Hell, I almost posted that myself.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on May 8, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions

Actually I was wrong. It was Howe I was thinking about but he wasn’t fired — he had a year left on his contract and when the Mets wanted to sign him the A’s released him from his contract.

At the time he was released he and Beane were badly estranged.

As to fungibility of managers you are spot on. I had forgotten until I did a net search how much Beane micromanages on field decisions. So as a technical matter even though he disagreed with a sabermetric approach he did follow Beane’s orders.

by JenniferMarie on May 7, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions