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Early Weekend Six-Pack (18 June '09)

 

1. John Meloan is not helping his cause or ours...

On a 40-man roster this shell-shocked, it's hard to muster up a complaint about any one given minor leaguer. But it's telling that the Indians turned to journeyman relievers before the young and (presumably) healthy Meloan, whose 2009 was supposed to be a dramatic return to form, since he'd been decoupled from the starting duties to which the Dodgers had so irrationally shackled him. As it turns out, the problem may have more to do with John Meloan, and less to do with how John Meloan's being used. Take a look at his numbers since he left L.A. (as a starter) and came to Cleveland (as a reliever).

YEAR (TEAM): AVG / WHIP / FIP / LD%
2008 (LAD): .285 / 1.66 / 4.31 / 19.0%
2008 (CLE): .235 / 1.43 / 4.43 / 16.7%
2009 (CLE): .293 / 1.57 / 4.61 / 27.0%

Whatever's gone wrong with John since his standout 2007 season, moving him back to the 'pen doesn't appear to have fixed it. It's especially frustrating because even a modicum of effectiveness probably would have earned him a call-up by now.

 

2. Michael Brantley might be better than Trevor Crowe right now

Lost among the commentary about Brantley's rocky AAA debut was the fact that he kept getting good wood on the ball -- a LD% over 20% in April and May, and nearly that so far in June. As his discipline has caught up to the level of the competition (BB:K in April, May, and June: 7:14, 15:14, 6:4), Brantley's become a legitimate threat at the plate, not to mention a Net-demon on the basepaths, stealing 20 and only being caught twice. If Brantley's June level of performance is what he's really capable of, Sackmann's MLE predicts a Major League OPS in the mid-700s.

Should Grady's elbow turn out to need a good ol'-fashioned athroscropic scopin', the Indians will have some tough choices to make regarding the outfield. Obviously they could replace Francisco with LaPorta, but that still leaves a significant offensive hole in center, barring a turn-around from Trevor Crowe. The front office would have a number of reasons not to add Brantley to the 25-man -- not the least of which would be that he also would have to be added to the 40-man -- but doubts about Brantley's capabilities probably won't be one of those reasons.

Star-divide

3. The Indians do not have signability issues with the draft

And 2009 doesn't look to be an exception. Tony Lastoria reports that the Tribe has already inked 9 draftees, including 8 of the top 16 picks. Several more high level picks, including 3rd- and 4th- rounders Joe Gardner and Kyle Bellows, are unofficially signed and will be reporting to their minor league affiliates within the next few weeks. As Brad Grant said in a couple of different interviews, the Indians' prioritize signing the first 15 picks, then follow the rest for the summer and sign them as they see fit. Off we go.

I'm curious to see how this organization values Jason Kipnis in particular. As I noted in the comments to last week's 6-pack, Kipnis and 2008 pick Tim Fedroff are both college center fielders, very nearly the same age, so comparing their signing bonuses ought to give us a decent idea of how the Indians value Kipnis's talent relative to Fedroff's.

 

4. Given the opportunity, here's a dumb question I asked Brad Grant

"Do the Indians scout non-NCAA conferences and JuCo teams more heavily than do other clubs?" I was thinking about Mills coming from an NAIA team, and Chisenhall coming from a JuCo team. Except -- except -- that's not really what happened, is it? Both Beau Mills and Lonnie Chisenhall were NCAA Division I talents. Mills left for academic reasons, Chisenhall for trouble with the law, but ... shoot, these guys were only bargain-bin signs in the most superficial sense. While I'm at it, Mills didn't leave for just any NAIA team, but for the NAIA team. Lewis-Clark State is its own animal.

So if we think of Mills and Chisenhall as NCAA players, that means the Indians have used their first-round pick on a Division I guy every year since after Corey Smith in 2000 and Dan Denham in 2001. If that's not a ringing endorsement for selecting college players in the first round, I don't know what is. (By the way, from the "Did you know this? 'Cause I didn't" file -- Denham and Smith are still in baseball. Name the organizations they're with.)

 

5. Okay, so, Stomp ... what gives?

As long as we're talking about things I've written that are wrong, how about that glowing everything's-okay-now profile of Jensen Lewis in the Annual? Here's what FanGraphs' Marc Hulet had to say about Lewis, J. recently:

If you're a fan of FIP, you're probably not a fan of Jensen Lewis. The right-handed reliever has posted pretty good superficial numbers over the parts of the past three seasons that he's been in the Majors. However, his FIP has gone from 2.49 to 4.59 to 5.54. His line-drive rate was also a worrisome 24.5% in 2008, although it currently sits at 11.5%. His HR/9 rate has gone from 1.03 to 2.30 in the past two seasons. For what it's worth, Lewis does have a nice K/BB rate at 3.00.

A glance at Jensen's FanGraphs profile sheds some light on the problem, if not on the solution: His first-pitch strike percentage has fallen from 67.2% in 2007 to 55.4% in 2009, and he's inducing 10% fewer swings at pitches outside of the zone over that same timeframe. As Jensen is pretty strictly a fastball-changeup reliever anymore, I'm going to guess this is a fastball location issue more than anything. In 2008, PitchF/X says Jensen got most of his swings-and-misses up in the zone, and his called strikes at a medium height, on the corners. I'm left to conclude that Jensen's missing off the plate so badly that he can't set up the high heat or the change-up.

On the plus side, his stuff doesn't seem to have deteriorated, and he's still working in the zone, as Hulet points out, so there's no reason to think he can't be fixed. But the less-appealing reality might be that he's not a dramatically different pitcher than he's ever been, and that the league is simply on to him. Either way, the fact that the Indians haven't exercised that option year shows just how abysmal the bullpen really is these days.

 

6. If Carl Pavano's goose is cooked, what's left?

Saved the best for last, didn't I? In his recent round of in-game interviews, Shapiro said the team was trying to keep its "nose above the water" until the return of Westbrook, SLewis, and Laffey (and of course Sizemore and Droobs). What I don't think he had in mind was those three pitchers taking up slots 2, 3, and 4. But Zach Jackson's going through a rough patch, and after him, the only other starter on the 40-man is Hector Rondon. I'm stumped. What do we do if Pavano's hurt, or gassed?

 

Well, it's been a tough week. Have a couple extra of Milwaukee's ACTUAL best, in honor of our having hosted the Brewers.

Lakefront-variety-pack_medium

via www.thebrewsite.com

 

UPDATE: Okay, since this is technically an 8-pack, here's two quick ones to slam.

7. "Carlos Santana! Carlos Santana! Ooohhhh, $%!#, Carlos Santana!"

Have you looked at this man's profile lately? If not, I'll tell you, it left me so sassified I started callin' out his name. That would be a 529 SLG basted with a 45:29 BB:K ratio, and no, you're not reading those numbers backwards. Oh, and he's throwing out 34% of attempted base-stealers. At the very least, I think Carlos will be seeing a promotion to AAA in the near future, but the larger reality might be that we're watching a Major Leaguer already.

Casey Blake, people. Casey. Blake.

 

8. CoolStandings still thinks 85 wins takes the Central

Which means, any way you cut it, that the Indians will have to play nearly 600 ball for the remainder of the season.

6 recs  |  Comment 134 comments

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Comments

Display:

Counting the All-Star Break, the Indians are off 8 of the next 33 days, so the need for pitching depth will not be as great as it has been. The 5th starter will not need to get much work.

In the first 73 days of the season, the Indians have had only a total of 5 off days.

by palcal on Jun 18, 2009 2:54 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Won’t our pitchers get worn out throwing in the Home Run Derby?

LeCavs!
If you were good enough, maybe we'd name it after you.

by Matt in LA on Jun 18, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah, they’ve had plenty of practice all season thus far.

Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.

by Turkmenbashi on Jun 18, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can’t drink now! Shouldn’t this wait for Happy Hour or something?

Great stuff, especially about Brantley (drool) and the NAIA misconception. Jensen… well… he’s depressing. I do wish Radinsky had been made the bullpen coach last year. He seems more capable of making adjustments where needed than Hernandez or Isaac (assuming, of course, that’s part of the job description). I mean, counterpoint Meloan, but he could as easily be hurt after the Dodgers debacle.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 18, 2009 8:11 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I’d guess that making adjustments is likely not part of the job description. Besides, you’ll probably get more return on your investment, so to speak, having Radinsky available in Columbus to work with guys on the way up (or down as the case may be) than in Cleveland playing a secondary role. Now, if you want to pitch Radinsky for pitching coach with the big club, I might get on board with that. Which city has better clubs in which Pulley could play?

by FredOx on Jun 18, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See, I think Willis has done, all told, an excellent job during his tenure. He’s tutored two consistent Cy Young contenders and gotten productivity out of quite a few mediocre vets. I’m not going to toss him for the bullpen stuff.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 18, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m still going to pregame with Beast before I hit that variety pack.

I don’t know if this Meloan performance is hitting anyone harder than me. Even Meloan can’t be this upset with Meloan.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 18, 2009 9:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Isn’t this the exact opposite of what you should want to do? Drink the good stuff first, then test your might against the Beast. Or, as I prefer, Beast Ice.

by danvail on Jun 18, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Beast is like the Indians bullpen. Bring it on when all hope is lost.

by odradek on Jun 18, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“Looks like they’ve got both a lefty and a righty warming up now. I think that’s… Yep. Spiderman and Air Bud.”

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 18, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The best thing about having Spiderman in the pen is that his pitches would all just stick to the bats

by Logodaedalus on Jun 18, 2009 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

that’s a nice benefit. and even the ones that somehow didn’t stick to the bat, you wouldn’t need fielders to track them down. spidey just goes ahead and nets ’em.

in a case like this, a manager might be well-served to bunt frequently…

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 18, 2009 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, bunt and then throw the bat and attached ball exactly where you want it…

by Logodaedalus on Jun 18, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’d like a dancing bear in the bullpen.

by odradek on Jun 18, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like this comment every time I read it.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 18, 2009 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m straining to understand this whole chain, but I’m not sure that I’ve figured it out. Is it something that can or should be openly explained? My intuition is telling me that it’s not.

by jhon on Jun 18, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah I don’t get it either

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not sure about the dancing bear, but for insight on bear killing, buy the annual. Now with 30% more Luis Valbuena!*

*Results may vary.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 19, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, it’s a joke from the Annual.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I pulled the Annual out last night to show off the Huffstache. It was a fun drunk moment.

Then I got to reading and was depressed …

2010.

by Gradyforpresident on Jun 19, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

wait a minute…

by jhon on Jun 18, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Personally I like option A. It sounds like a good plan. I really wish I knew someone like this though to make it seem more plausible.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jun 18, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We need to find a high school near a nuclear reactor.. large kids with blazing fastballs.

Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.

by USSChoo on Jun 18, 2009 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Isn’t there one i Utah somewhere? I mean a nuclear plant, I don’t know about a high school.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jun 18, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually I think so, one of the guys I went to school with did one of his thesis films on a nuclear plant that was in his hometown I believe, and he was a Mormon from Utah. So I think you’re right. Bring on the nuclear Mormon ballplayers!

Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.

by USSChoo on Jun 18, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jeremy Guthrie is a Mormon. A list of LDS players:

    * John Buck
    * Bobby Crosby
    * Brandon Duckworth
    * Jacoby Ellsbury
    * Kyle Farnsworth
    * Jeremy Guthrie
    * Roy Halladay
    * Matt Lindstrom
    * Brandon Lyon
    * Dave Veres
    * Jaret Wright

by odradek on Jun 19, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we’re on to something. I see lots of fastballs there.

by Voltaire on Jun 19, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“And observe, professor, what happens when we irradiate the subject for 20 minutes with 100,000 roentgens.”

by odradek on Jun 19, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think it’s unfair to call Jaret Wright learning disabled.

by Toxicadam on Jun 19, 2009 2:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder if John Beck, Ty Detmer or Steve Young are available.

FE WEE

by westbrook on Jun 19, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They promised to seal this list.

by dgcambridge on Jun 19, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Um, no. No nuclear power plants in Utah.

by NickFantana on Jun 19, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They were just proposing one. That’s probably what I heard.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jun 19, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No there are not any in Utah. But there is one in Northeast Ohio according to this map I found. Ora reactor anyway. So this plan is more convenient than we thought.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jun 19, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There’s a nuclear power plant in Perry, in Lake County, where I graduated from high school. The plant was by the lake, there isn’t really anything but a few scattered houses within a mile of the plant.

by woodsmeister on Jun 19, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

as a consequence, perry has about the nicest high school facilities i’ve ever seen.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 19, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is one between here (sandusky) and Toledo. Davis Besse. And the high school (Oak Harbor) always had some freakishly big football players. Don’t know much about their baseball throwing ability though.

by Ryan Kelsey on Jun 19, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One’s being proposed in southern Ohio. The Reds are stealing our idea!

by Voltaire on Jun 19, 2009 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I was under the impression that LaPorta is being moved full-time to first base. I think this indicates that
a. he won’t be called up to replace Ben Fran
b. the front office sees what you see here with Brantley and that they think he will be up full-time at some point this year

by Roger Dorn on Jun 18, 2009 9:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Is he being moved to first base full time? I thought the plan was to get him more reps at first for versatility

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So ideally, we come out of the All-Star break with something like

LF: Brantley
CF: Sizemore
RF: Choo
1B: LaPorta
2B: Valbuena
SS: Cabrera
3B: DeRosa
C: Martinez
DH: Hafner

With a rotation of Lee, Laffey, Westbrook, Huff, Sowers, maybe Pavano if he hasn’t wrecked himself, and a bullpen of Kerry Wood and whatever we can scrape off the floor. All of that being conditioned on us staying tight enough to the division leader to make it worth our while.

by fleerdon on Jun 18, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe we should scrape this guy off the floor (from the lastest Castrovince post):

After two scoreless innings in last night’s 10-3 win over Rochester, Vinnie Chulk now has a 0.66 ERA in 12 total appearances covering 13 2/3 innings with the Clippers this season. He’s walked three and struck out 11. He has five straight scoreless outings and hasn’t allowed an earned run in 11 of 12 appearances.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 18, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Chulk didn’t get charged with a run today, either, but he did let both inherited runners score. He’d fit right in in this bullpen.

by FredOx on Jun 18, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not until he lets a fat guy score from first on an 0-2 count and two outs.

by odradek on Jun 18, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I bet he could do it.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jun 18, 2009 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does Peralta stay in the doghouse then until DeRosa is dealt?

by The DiaTriber on Jun 18, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Wedge will give him another try

by Roger Dorn on Jun 18, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You’re assuming that Wedge will still be with the team after the break.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jun 26, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

For that comment yes, but I do think Wedge will be gone at the ASB

by Roger Dorn on Jun 26, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, you know, there are guys with track records in front of him, and it’s hard to give him ABs at the expense of more experience players who have earned them.

by fleerdon on Jun 18, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think that’s called the domino effect.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 18, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think it’s more likely that DeRosa is dealt for bullpen help before the ASB and Peralta stays at third.

by NickFantana on Jun 18, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really? We want to put another Dominican at the hot corner?

This will not end well.

by fleerdon on Jun 18, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It just hit me. Peralta is the new Marte.

by fleerdon on Jun 18, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

He had a lot of success at a young age.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 18, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Am I the only one who thinks that dealing DeRosa for bullpen help is selling his value short?

I’m not saying DeRosa is an a perinnel all star, but given his offensive numbers, his versatility, relatively cheap contract, limited supply, and high demand; I get the feeling that we’re going to be able to get more than a failed starter with a live arm who pitches out of the pen now.

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

See also: the entire Sanchez discussion.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 18, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Off his career year he got TWO relievers. I guess that’s my minimum for happiness with a deal, although I’d like two better relievers. Or a reliever with good ceiling and a nice position player (hey, we’ve done that recently).

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The fact that he is at like 13 home runs and is playing 4 different positions this year totally rocks for us from a trading perspective

by Roger Dorn on Jun 19, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Can’t argue that. I hope we bend someone over.

But if I’m being honest with myself, whatever the haul is, I want a reliever. A Meloan that pitches like Meloan should. And yeah why not, a Carlos Santana would be nice too.

There’s just so much ground between the Casey Blake package and the Mark DeRosa package. I’m very curious to see where the middle ground is and how close Shapiro can get to Blake.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I definitely want a high upside reliever as well. Like a Chris Perez from the Cardinals and maybe another big prospect. I wasn’t this greedy until DeRosa’s recent tear

by Roger Dorn on Jun 19, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That ground somewhat represents the great return on the Blake deal, which has become sort of the mini-Colon deal.

But the larger portion of that ground represents the difference in leverage between the offseason and the trade deadline. Simply put, you can get more for 2.5 months of a player in July than you can for 6 months of a player in January, because in January, a team merely hopes to be in contention and is merely speculating as to what its needs will be over the next nine months. In July, a team knows its in contention and pretty much knows what its needs are for the next three months.

In terms of pure marginals wins and dollars, even Sabathia-LaPorta straight-up makes no sense at all — even considering the bust risk for LaPorta, it just doesn’t add up. But leverage — the enhanced value of late-season games in a tight race — changes the equation dramatically. We dealt Blake at the deadline and acquired DeRosa in the offseason. That’s the big difference.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 19, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

why would we ideally have Valbuena starting over Perelta? Even with Jhonny’s current slump, he’s still has the much better bat

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t entirely disagree, but that would mean playing De Rosa at 2nd, which they’ve shown no inclination to do (assuming that Brantley is in left, that is).

by peter m on Jun 18, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not “much better”, at least not this year. If you project Valbuena’s numbers over the same number of PA Peralta has, you get this:

    PA	 AB   R	  H   2B  3B HR	RBI SB	CS BB	SO
JP  250  222  19  56  11  1  2	26  0	0  24	57
LV  250  221  33  45  24  0  2	12  2	2  26	71

Jhonny is certainly underperforming his actual ability, but then again Valbuena has been hitting better lately. There’s only about a 30 point difference in OPS in 2009. In the abstract, I agree Peralta should be a much better hitter than Valbuena. In 2009, I’m not so sure it’s true.

by FredOx on Jun 18, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

If Wedge for some reason would go missing, I bet Jhonny goes on a tear.

by odradek on Jun 18, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ooooh. You’re not planning something for Wedge are you?

If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.

by LeftyCatcher on Jun 18, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This is a comparison of Valbuena’s best case outcome versus Jhonny’s worse case outcome

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No it isn’t. If you have them each 250 at bats starting tomorrow, I suspect they’d each do better. I’ll agree it’s worst case for Jhonny, but Valbuena is getting better and the extrapolation doesn’t take that into account. There’s no way a 600 OPS is the best case scenario for Valbuena, even if a 636 OPS is worst case for Jhonny.

by FredOx on Jun 18, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

PECOTA pegged Valbuena for a 683 OPS this season, with the 90° “best case” projection of a 780 OPS.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 18, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In actual response to the thoughts above:

-Keeping DeRosa is just a guess. I can at least see the scenarios. What seems much more likely to me is that we’re too far out of it to afford that. This was a best-case kind of thing.

-Peralta and Shoppach would still be getting PT. This is just one hypothetical line-up. I can definitely see Valbuena’s defense outweighing Jhonny’s offense, particularly if the latter doesn’t show some marked improvement. In any event, we still won’t be playing Hafner every day.

by fleerdon on Jun 18, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But the less-appealing reality might be that he’s not a dramatically different pitcher than he’s ever been, and that the league is simply on to him.

So how many pitchers of ours is this now true with? There’ve been several instances in the past few years of young pitchers breaking in with the Tribe and being really good, then the league makes adjustments to them. The counter-example would be Cliff Lee. Why haven’t the Indians been able to develop more pitchers than that? Or is it just the same old story, pitching is volatile and you never know what you have until its gone?

by NickFantana on Jun 18, 2009 9:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Does that seem true with Jensen? I haven’t looked it up, but he seems to be wild in the zone, throwing fat high fastballs on pitcher’s counts. I’ve seen him go 0-2 to batters and then lose them via hits. Lewis has always been vulnerable to being hit (as he showed last year in Great American), but now he seems to have developed a head case about it.

by odradek on Jun 18, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Additionally, that is an eight pack of beers, which means you owe us two more bullet points.

by NickFantana on Jun 18, 2009 9:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Trying to figure out what to do this afternoon after golf with the father-in-law in Milwaukee. A trip to Lakefront Brewery may have just entered the afternoon agenda.

by The DiaTriber on Jun 18, 2009 11:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I’d rec it.

by Brick. on Jun 18, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like this, and I say that as I’m (in the spirit) sipping one of these:

by APV on Jun 18, 2009 11:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

and contrary to the picture – I would never ever want to ruin a lobster by drinking one of these along side it

by APV on Jun 18, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Brantley and the 40. It will be interesting to see how the 40 man roster plays out once we begin to bring up youth. Looking forward to the second half of this year, and an eye to 2010:

Old guys with some, but not a lot, of temporary value:
Aquino
Herges (don’t lump me in with those other two)
Ohka
Vizcaino
Carroll (i know, he’s been excellent)

Will be traded, if healthy:
Pavano
DeRosa

Youngish guys with little chance of being a major league starter/regular of interest:
Jackson
Miller
Rundles
Giminez
Toregas
Barfield
Crowe
Garko
Francisco

I debated putting Jensen Lewis or Sowers on the list, but I don’t think they belong yet.

So yeah, we’ve got room. A couple of these guys are tradable. I’m not hating on them, but none will be missed. At least, not missed by anyone outside of each guys small little fan club, which I totally support.

by dgcambridge on Jun 18, 2009 12:05 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think this list looks right. One question, though. Miller is on there because of health, I take it? Or are there other reasons to give up on him?

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 18, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

you don’t need another reason, although I think the Indians will hold out on giving up on him as long as possible. Unprecedented surgery to the middle finger of his pitching hand – that’s not good.

by APV on Jun 18, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I know it’s really serious surgery, but I’d hate to give up on him until we know if he can pitch again (but would understand if we did). I guess I’m hoping he’ll go all Mordecai Brown on us.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 18, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree. I think you still reach the same number now with Miller as with the other guys: just a very low odds of being an impact player.

With him it’s because of the surgery. With the others, it’s because they would need to take an unlikely step up in ability.

by dgcambridge on Jun 18, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Give it up, Denver. It’s a pipe dream. About as likely as Spiderman in the pen.

by odradek on Jun 18, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Unprecedented surgery to the middle finger of his pitching hand – that’s not good.

Maybe. Or maybe that is good!

by hans on Jun 18, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

apologies for the novice-level question…are there any rules governing the returns generated from the trading of 40-man occupants? said differently, do we have to place one/some of the players we get back for, say, DeRosa, on the 40?

i can’t remember what happened with TheDoor, but wasn’t Zachson placed on the 40? maybe that was just coincidence and not a rule. and i definitely can’t remember what happened in the Colon trade.

by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 18, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, we don’t have to place a guy on the 40 because of a trade. But, Zachson was on the Brewers’ 40… which I think is why he had to be on ours.

FE WEE

by westbrook on Jun 18, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right. Once you’re on the 40-man, you stay on the 40-man until/unless you’re outrighted.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 18, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Toregas might figure into next year’s plans if we trade Shoppach. Probably unlikely but possible.

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aaron Laffey, by the way, pitched 3 innings (49 pitches) for Columbus this afternoon. 5 hits, one run, 1 walk, no K’s. 33/49 strikes. Meanwhile, Brantley is 3/3 off Swarzak, who pitched a nice game for the Twins recently, I think.

by peter m on Jun 18, 2009 1:40 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

rec

FE WEE

by westbrook on Jun 18, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One problem with Brantley, from what I’ve read, is he seems stretched as a CF as well … much like Crowe.

I’ve noticed that he’s been slid to LF the past couple nights in Columbus … and the last game in CF he was actually lifted for defense.

Is he a better option than Crowe right now … might be … but they’re likely close to equals in the field.

by FallsTribeFan on Jun 18, 2009 2:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know why he’s been in LF the last two games, but he wasn’t lifted for defense in that Rochester game. The Clippers were losing 10-3 in the 8th at the time, which is not when one typically removes a better offensive player in order to improve defense.

by FredOx on Jun 18, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Oops … forgot to look at a little thing like the score.

Odd that he’s shuffled over to LF for the minor league journeyman though.

by FallsTribeFan on Jun 18, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Smith is with the Royals and Denham is with the Angels, if anybody was curious. I had to look them up.

by mrich on Jun 18, 2009 3:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I want to post these nuggets from Stark somewhere, and it doesn't merit it's own fanshot so I pick this thread (click to collapse if you don't care):

I’m going to cross of the pointless cliches and stupidities here.

Can we pull the plug on the Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez rumors now? They’re irreplaceable players, with affordable options for next year. So the Indians have no incentive to trade them, unless the payback is insane. That makes DeRosa far and away the best chip in town if they decide to sell. He’s already up to 13 homers, 48 RBIs and 46 runs scored. And only six other players in the whole sport can match him in all three categories, none of them third basemen or second basemen. So Mark DeRosa gets more marketable by the minute.
“This guy’s a winner,” said an executive of one of many interested teams. “He just has that presence of a winner out there. If somebody grabs this guy, he’ll be a difference-maker down the stretch.” Asked what position DeRosa ought to play — second, third or left field — the same exec laughed and replied: “All of them.”

Now, where have we seen these names before?

• What’s Brewing: Clubs that have spoken to the Brewers report they’ve been adamant in saying they won’t talk about Mat Gamel or shortstop prospect Alcides Escobar, even for front-line pitching. And after that, said an official of one club they spoke with, “there’s a pretty sizable falloff” to their next wave of potentially available prospects (Lorenzo Cain, Taylor Green, Caleb Gindl). That’s one reason Hardy’s name has started to show up on the rumor circuit.

FE WEE

by westbrook on Jun 18, 2009 4:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

oh, and I’d cross of the statistical cherrypicking if it wasn’t so optimistic.

FE WEE

by westbrook on Jun 18, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

OFF. why does of keep showing up?

FE WEE

by westbrook on Jun 18, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Even though it’s a cliche, if that is the line coming from an actual executive, then I find it to be fairly meaningful

by Roger Dorn on Jun 18, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right. We don’t care if other teams’ execs overvalue our players based on GOVS (“grit over valid statistics”).

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 18, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My thought, too.

It’s a meaningless cliche, but it’s meaningful that another club executive is using it to describe one of our players.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 18, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

or more importantly…its not meaningless cliche if that’s what rival execs use to judge our talent

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s what I meant.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 18, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, I’ve kept you in suspense long enough.

Corey Smith, still just 27, is with the Royals’ AA affiliate. He still can’t walk worth a damn. His OPS has cleared 800 in just two of his professional seasons, and one of those was in an independent league.

Dan Denham, now 26, has made 12 starts for AAA Salt Lake in the Angels’ system. Peripheral rate stats, season to date: 4.5 BB/9, 3.7 K/9, 11.2 H/9.

And so ended the Indians’ experiments with taking high schoolers in the first round.

by fleerdon on Jun 18, 2009 6:53 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I don’t know where to put this but I had the thought this morning that it’s really exasperating that they brought up LaPorta and let him mostly ride the pine, not because he should have been starting every day but because it has forced the Indians to keep him down for the entire month of June, when his help has been needed even more.

Between Sizemore’s injury, Francisco’s slump and Garko being Garko, there’s plenty of at-bats for LaPorta to start every day now, but he can’t, cause he was up for most of a month earlier.

by NickFantana on Jun 19, 2009 11:01 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Forgive my ignorance, but why can’t they call him back up? I thought the options rule is by season, not by move, so what’s the bar? Or are you talking about some other reason they are forced to keep him in the minors?.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 19, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They’re not forced to keep him down; it would just be an economically stupid thing to bring him up (see, e.g., our many discussions of the Super 2 rules).

by FredOx on Jun 19, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They’re not forced, but if he accrues too much ML service time this season, he’ll be arbitration-eligible a year earlier than otherwise, under the Super Two clause. Which would likely cost the Indians more each year thereafter as well.

Am I doing it right?

by Logodaedalus on Jun 19, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

see also, above

by Logodaedalus on Jun 19, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for all of these clear explanations. I’ve got it now.

"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter

by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 19, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, we could keep in AAA next April.

FE WEE

by westbrook on Jun 19, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually, maybe not. Does it go by total games played or is there a # for each season?

FE WEE

by westbrook on Jun 19, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They look at the number of games played after this season. If he qualifies, his eligible this year and each year after (until FA). If he doesn’t qualify, he’ll be eligible after next year.

by dgcambridge on Jun 19, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll disagree only to the extent that, when that call-up was made, we were going with a three-man bench, and those three players WERE that bench, and they were pretty indisputably our best options at the time. So having LaPorta topside did address the needs of the big league squad, however weakly.

I also don’t understand why any of this is relevant to their reluctance to bring him up right now. I mean, if he’s going to help us get into the race, now would be the time. And if we call him up and crap out anyway, send him back down for August or whatever. The only way we get the shaft is if we call him up, he plays really well, and then we can’t afford to lose his production. There is like a 5% chance of that happening; I’d probably take the risk.

by fleerdon on Jun 19, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t call him up because I don’t think he helps us that much. Unless he can pitch.

by FredOx on Jun 19, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Right, this and we are so close to pushing off the arbitration that you might as well wait it out. If the offense were really struggling, I think fleerdon is right that we would have to call him up. It’s really just that Ben Fran and Crowe can’t hit, and LaPorta will probably be a better option in 2 weeks

by Roger Dorn on Jun 19, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Between Sizemore’s injury, Francisco’s slump and Garko being Garko, there’s plenty of at-bats for LaPorta to start every day now, but he can’t, cause he was up for most of a month earlier.

Garko’s June OPS- .840

by world dictator on Jun 20, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In what I assume is very limited PA, that is really not all that impressive. Even if he OPS’ed .950 in a 2 week span, would we really change our opinion?

by Roger Dorn on Jun 20, 2009 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Today’s trivia question: When did Ben Francisco’s slump begin?

by odradek on Jun 20, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am going to guess the day after the Devil Rays series ended

by Roger Dorn on Jun 20, 2009 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

And it will end when he next plays Tampa.

by odradek on Jun 20, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hopefully it ends when we trade him to an AL East team.

by woodsmeister on Jun 20, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

2008

I become an expert simply by doing something.

by fwembt on Jun 23, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cleveland.com would be so perplexed if we end up predicting LaPorta’s callup date exactly.

FE WEE

by westbrook on Jun 19, 2009 1:37 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

To add to #4, I think it’s important to note how young these guys were at the time of drafting. They both graduated high school when they were still 17, and in Chisenhall’s case, he was drafted just two years after graduating, Mills, the normal three.

My understanding of the preference for drafting college players is that we have more information on the players. We have a better understanding of how their bodies are going to develop and how that’ll affect their tools. We also have a better understanding of how they perform against a better caliber of competition. There’s also greater leverage for the team.

This is why I viewed the Chisenhall pick, and to a much lesser extent the Mills pick, as an attempt at finding a middle ground. Guys that were older physically, a more extensive performance record than high schoolers, less leverage but with more room to grow than the protypical 21 yr old college junior.

by ClarkM on Jun 21, 2009 5:48 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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