Let's Go Tribe!: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
New Blog: Cottagers Confidential for Fulham FC Fans!

Not sure what I think of this, but I am pretty sure it will enrage Jay.

9 months ago Trex_tiny gmfrodo 96 comments 0 recs  | 

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I should note this is an invitation to discussion, not calling anyone out on their opinions. I tend to take a dim view of PED users, but I am not sure this makes the leaker a hero.

by gmfrodo on Jun 18, 2009 4:42 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

While MLB’s pledge to seal the test results protects each athlete’s legal rights, the public has a right to know the results for the purpose of preserving the integrity of baseball history and its statistics. This insures that no player would serve jail time for perjuring himself, but also, would discourage any player from further benefitting who knowingly used a substance that gave them an unfair advantage.

by elsandito on Jun 18, 2009 5:11 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

While MLB’s pledge to seal the test results protects each athlete’s legal rights, the public has a right to know the results for the purpose of preserving the integrity of baseball history and its statistics.

No we don’t. I’d say the first part of your sentence trumps the rest. I know we went over this with A-Rod’s leak, and that’s still my opinion. Why should the Player’s Union ever trust anything MLB approaches them about again? It will stunt further progression.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 18, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m not sure how much MLB is at fault here. The MLBPA didn’t destroy the records, and we aren’t sure who the leak is. It very well may be someone who isn’t directly involved with MLB.

by 7foot3 on Jun 18, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think we can assume MLB leaked it. It could have been anyone along the chain, including someone at MLB, but I think we can be sure that it wasn’t MLB proper.

by dgcambridge on Jun 18, 2009 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don’t think the PA cares who leaked it (well I’m sure they do). I just know if I was in their place I would not be jumping into future “deals” with MLB.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 18, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But they have to. That’s pretty much the total sum of their work.

by dgcambridge on Jun 19, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

MLB’s vow to seal test results has nothing to do with preventing athletes from going to jail. MLB promised to seal the results in order to persuade the players union to agree to more aggressive results in stopping steroid use.

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

They didn’t just vow to seal the results, didn’t they vow not to attach names to the samples? That there are even leaks shows this was a lie.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 18, 2009 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes. The testing was allegedly anonymous.

by Voltaire on Jun 18, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also…why does the public have the right to this information?

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whether the players ever trust MLB ownership again is inconsequential. Players should be reminded that the business of baseball is for the benefit of the fans, the paying public. The players are merely highly paid guests of their adoring fans. Any athlete who doesn’t care to participate, can elect to follow some other aspiration. If this forces their union to assume a confrontational posture toward ownership, the union will need to be weakened. MLB is a monopoly whose owners and players share in the rewards of that monopoly.

The public has the right to know any information that affects their confidence in the product they buy. It’s always in the best interest of MLB owners and, therefore, their empoyees, when the customers sense that they are getting what they paid for. Baseball has created a standard, maybe an impossible standard, of how baseball stands for American values. Right or wrong, the success of baseball will depend on how well the product is marketed.

by elsandito on Jun 18, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

This this this. Also, this.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 18, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everything I said is wrong? Didn’t you agree with me that baseball is a business?
One of the differences between baseball and the Home Depot is that the Home Depot competes with Lowes, it’s not a monopoly that Congress has allowed to operate as such for the benefit of the American public.
And, I did overstate my case about the public’s right to know. What I should have said is that it’s good business that the public know so that the the public maintains a high degree of confidence in the product they buy. There’s a difference between running a business shabbily and running it so that it maximizes its opportunity.

by elsandito on Jun 18, 2009 9:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

“There is no reasonable dispute that your continued eligibility for participation at this time would undermine the integrity of and public confidence in our league.”
-Roger Goodell, NFL Commissioner
This ruling just came down pertaining to D. Stallworth. Goodell gets it. It didn’t matter what his view of Stallworth’s incidence was. It’s about maintaining an image with the paying public. Marketing is about perception.
It’s better if the public knows that Sosa, or any other star, is exposed for using a substance before they are considered in HOF voting than afterwards.

by elsandito on Jun 18, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

So steroid use and drunk driving that results in murder are the same thing now?

And if we’re going to use Goodell as a source, shouldn’t we also include the fairly leak proof NFL substance abuse program?

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 9:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There’s also a difference in that the public already knew about the DUI. The public did not know about a retired player’s usage, and didn’t need to find out to increase confidence.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 18, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

way to take my point and make it better!

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I wrote that as I was scrolling down. Didn’t see your Ramirez anecdote.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

There was no murder in the Stallworth case.

by danvail on Jun 18, 2009 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My fault

I didn’t mean murder in the legal sense. But semantics aside, he killed someone.

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

It’s all semantics on LGT.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We wouldn’t have anything to talk about if we couldn’t debate semantics

by Roger Dorn on Jun 19, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember a while back reading about a prosecuter that was charging drunk drivers in fatal accidents with murder, under the depraved or abandoned/malignant heart statute.

by ClarkM on Jun 21, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s your problem.

You’re wrong

Didn’t you agree with me that baseball is a business?

You said baseball was a business and then describe it as everything that a business is not. Like Fred said, a business doesn’t exist to serve the people it exists to make money. Or as Milton Friedman said :

“So the question is, do corporate executives, provided they stay within the law, have responsibilities in their business activities other than to make as much money for their stockholders as possible? And my answer to that is, no they do not”

One of the differences between baseball and the Home Depot is that the Home Depot competes with Lowes, it’s not a monopoly that Congress has allowed to operate as such for the benefit of the American public.

You sure about that? Are you sure the 1922 Supreme Court case Federal Baseball Club v. National League didn’t have anything to do with that? Or maybe the reaffirmation in Toolson v. New York Yankees in 53’ or Flood v. Kuhn in 72’

What I should have said is that it’s good business that the public know so that the the public maintains a high degree of confidence in the product they buy. There’s a difference between running a business shabbily and running it so that it maximizes its opportunity.

Where’s the proof that transparency increases consumer confidence and/or profits? Even from an anecdotal point of view no one I’ve ever met says “oh now that I know Manny Ramirez used steroids. I feel much better about baseball and thus will purchase more tickets.”

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Milton Friedman does not represent the single authoritative point of view on the question of what a business is. In fact, he’s pretty extreme on one end of the spectrum. So you may not want to cite his quote as fact.

by Logodaedalus on Jun 18, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Personally I’m no fan of Milton Friedman, but love him or hate him he is arguably the most influential economist, especially when it comes to the role of the private sector.

Its also worth mentioning that a lot of people probably consider John Maynard Keynes an extremist too. In my experience people usually stand firmly on one side or the other when it comes to famous economist and the philosophy the expose.

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Milton Friedman…is arguably the most influential economist.

Whoa!

by odradek on Jun 18, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s probably true, as far as the last 50 or so years, but how relevant is that? I mean, influential is different from right, certainly. I guess it’s a question of whether the argument at hand is a legal one, a “what do most people believe” one, or a philosophical, ethical one.

by Logodaedalus on Jun 18, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

You would be a lot more successful with your arguments if you didn’t coat them with such thick condescension and disdain. You’re impressed with your own intellect. We get it.

Just an observation.

Additionally, the comparison between corporate executives and MLB baseball as an entity is a weak one. Corporate executives have a fiduciary duty to make as much money for their stockholders as possible. It’s a legal obligation and they can be held liable in court for failing to live up to it. Corporate executives’ legal obligation to make as much money as possible for their shareholders ! = MLB’s lack of a legal obligation or duty to its fans to disclose the results of steroid testing.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 18, 2009 10:17 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

You would be a lot more successful with your arguments if you didn’t coat them with such thick condescension and disdain. You’re impressed with your own intellect. We get it.

Just an observation.

That’s funny since I find myself thinking that about most everything you say. And trust me If I were really as mean spirited as you think I am I’d go into greater detail.

But in the end, I remind myself to give everyone the benefit of the doubt because this is the internet and tone is hard to detect, sarcasm easy to be offended by.

But if you still feel that way you can just skip my posts. Most of what I say is more eloquently written by other people on LGT anyways. (Like Nick a few comments above!)

And for the record elsandito I’m definitely not trying to be a jerk buddy. :-)

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I see that you have a very different vision than I do. My primary motive was to suggest that there are a multitude of considerations. You have complemented that effort with more considerations. It’s all good.

by elsandito on Jun 18, 2009 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s fair. I think there are certainly arguments to be made in favor of disclosure of positive tests. However, I’m troubled by a single person taking unilateral action to undermine legal, and good faith, agreements between MLB and the player’s association.

I think Nick is dead on when he says that these types of leaks are harmful because it creates an air of mistrust between the two sides.

by world dictator on Jun 18, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’ll throw another idea out there. The union was created mainly to provide players with leverage to negotiate higher compensation and some degree of financial security for its players in retirement.
That MLB needs to clear drug testing of its employees with some union rep, seems well beyond the best intent of anyone except, perhaps, someone using a banned substance. There shouldn’t have to be any good faith agreements when it involves protecting the image of a business or its product.

by elsandito on Jun 18, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah, the general consensus is that drug testing, or really, any kind of personal search, is a burden to the subject, guilty or not. Fehr strongly believe it.

by dgcambridge on Jun 19, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m willing to concede that major league baseball could be served as well if the public did not know about substances.
What about the message that this sends to high school players who could be tempted to use these same substances to succeed? Firstly, it teaches the wrong lesson to young people, that succeeding through dishonest means can be tolerated by society. Secondly, the possible destructive effects that some of these substances have on people should be considered.
Once we commit to a strategy of discouraging this type of behavior, the next logical step is to hold up pro players to that standard.

by elsandito on Jun 18, 2009 10:33 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think at this point most people know that steroids and misuse of PEDs are probably bad for you. If your gut can’t tell you that anyway, well, you’re going to do something stupid to your body later on in life if it isn’t steroids.

Let’s be honest though. Very few people care about the poor children. I feel like my intelligence is being insulted when an article is written about it.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Everybody knows that MLB is an anomalous monopoly. I don’t think elsandito needs to be browbeaten with the history of those cases, and I can’t yet understand how they relate to the original discussion, but at some point I’d be interested to hear what the folks around here who’ve read up on these have to say about them. Has anyone here taken the time to read Blackmun’s opinion in Flood?

by jhon on Jun 18, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I have. It’s one of the worst in the history of SCOTUS jurisprudence. “Pandering” doesn’t begin to describe it.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 19, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seriously, he names a list of like 50 great baseball players, and it’s basically the foundation of his opinion. What if Stan Musial had left the Cardinals?? The horror! That’s so much worse than the indentured servitude of the reserve clause.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 19, 2009 12:21 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

To be honest I thought the original 1922 case was pretty bad legal reasoning. But yeah, Blackmum…wow, haha.

by world dictator on Jun 19, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I agree that the public doesn’t have a “right” to know this kind of information in any sense, this isn’t a very apt metaphor. As a consumer of tools, the utility of the hammer you buy at Home Depot is in no way connected to the integrity of its employees. As a consumer of baseball, the enjoyment and pleasure you take in consuming MLB’s product may very well be affected by your perception of whether the players are cheating with performance enhancers. No matter how many steroids your hypothetical Home Depot worker puts in his body, the hammer or level you buy from him is going to be the same. This isn’t so with baseball: performance enhancers indisputably alter the product to at least some degree, and they alter the perception of the product even more so.

However, I’m also not a big fan of this “heroic” cheater-sniping. Going at the steroid problem in a piecemeal, ad hoc fashion of revealing the names of players who failed drug tests doesn’t accomplish anything for the consumer or for MLB. The test results will only reveal the names of the guys who got caught, and there really isn’t any way to get around that fact. Thus, any attempt to shed light on the problem using said results isn’t going to preserve history, provide a more accurate picture of what happened, or bring “justice”—the resulting picture will likely be arbitrary and even more distorted than it was to begin with.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 18, 2009 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I’m not necessarily arguing with your main conclusion, vis a vis the “right to know”, but I do take issue with this sentence:

Baseball no more exists for the benefit of the fans than Home Depot does for the benefit of the hammer-buying population

It’s maybe getting a little esoteric, but it seems to me that, in fact, the reason baseball exists is because the fans want it. Similarly, the reason Home Depot exists is because people want hammers ‘n such. Businesses exist to provide people with goods and services… for baseball, the service is entertainment. One could probably make the case that the players are, in a sense, more like the hammer than the HD employee, and therefore the customer has a right to know what they’re paying for, but the fact that the players are people and therefore have their own rights (unlike hammers), one of which is privacy. So in the end, I agree that we don’t have a right to know, since the players have a right not to reveal, but I’m not sure this is due to some broad principles of the way business works, but rather simply because of the specific privacy contracts and statutes involved.

by Logodaedalus on Jun 18, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look I don’t want to know anymore. I just want it to stop from here on out. I don’t need to know the other people on the lise and I don’t want to.

Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?

by ClemsonGirl on Jun 18, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not sure what I think of this, but I am pretty sure it will enrage Jay.

That or start another Beach Boys sidebar.

--
Force quit and move to trash.

by vbc3 on Jun 18, 2009 6:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Enrage? Really?

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 18, 2009 7:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You look pretty mad to me. Put down the broken bottle, please. This is a family establishment.

by FredOx on Jun 18, 2009 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 18, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Twenty years ago, in a bar on Denison.

by odradek on Jun 18, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

haha. I just remembered some strongly worded views on this subject in the past. So, maybe, “modestly irritate?”

by gmfrodo on Jun 19, 2009 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

But is the leaker an MLB insider or a Players Association peep? Is there any confirmation on this?

Juan Salas: Smartest man in baseball?

by emd2k3 on Jun 18, 2009 8:19 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Two observations:

(1) Whoever is leaking these names is violating the civil rights of citizens. For what reason? This person should be found and sentenced.

(2) Remember that game in Arlington when Cliff drilled Sammy and the vice president of the DR was there? Some festivities for Sammy’s 600th home run or something. That was cool.

by odradek on Jun 18, 2009 11:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Public disclosure of private facts isn’t even a valid cause of action in many states, including New York. And these are public figures and this is (legally, if not actually) a matter of public concern, which means First Amendment concerns protect the leaker and the publishers.

The Constitutional right to privacy only protects the rights to contraceptives, abortion, and matters of sexual intimacy between consenting adults. Don’t fool yourself into thinking anyone has an actual right to privacy.

Whatever you may think of what this guy is doing, it’s far from a violation of civil rights.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 19, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Constitutional right to privacy only protects the rights to contraceptives, abortion, and matters of sexual intimacy between consenting adults. Don’t fool yourself into thinking anyone has an actual right to privacy.

14th amendment?

by world dictator on Jun 19, 2009 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fourth amendment?

by odradek on Jun 19, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That’s privacy from the government though…

by Logodaedalus on Jun 19, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This. The right to privacy I mentioned is the 14th Amendment right to privacy (read into the due process clause.)

The 4th Amendment doesn’t stretch to private action, and in any event, a leak isn’t a search or seizure even if it was a government actor that released it.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 19, 2009 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

the difference between improperly divulging information that is already possessed, and improperly obtaining information in the first place…

by Logodaedalus on Jun 19, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m wondering if the real legal case to be made is on the guy that put a name on the samples. I wonder if there’s specific wording in whatever agreements were made before testing was to begin regarding this.

I don’t like steroids, but I can’t get over the fact that NO ONE was ever supposed to know who was testing positive. You can’t have leaks without names matched to samples.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I’m wondering what Jack McCoy would do in this situation. This is where I’ll stand.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aren’t the “guys” who put the names on the samples, the people from the Mitchell commission? From my understanding when they did their investigation a lot of lists and samples that were never supposed to be put together wound up being put together.

by world dictator on Jun 19, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

That was when Vic and Cliff got in a fight, and then Cliff went to the minors after that

by Roger Dorn on Jun 19, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I didn’t know that. I don’t get why this is a matter of public concern though. Does HIPA have any effect here?

And does that mean a player could not successfully sue against the person who revealed this informayion?

by odradek on Jun 19, 2009 12:30 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I know next to nothing about HIPAA, so I’ll bow out on the effect it might have on this discussion. As far as being a matter of public concern, I really don’t think it’s close. You have celebrated athletes breaking the law, there’s already a media frenzy, Congress has been involved… I don’t see how any judge would find it anything but a matter of public concern. Again, I mean as a legal term of art. Whether you or Steel Nick or Jeff Bagwell think it’s really a matter of public concern is really irrelevant.

Look, there are probably a number of ways this could be found unlawful—HIPAA, the original agreement not to attach names to samples, some sort of privilege, etc. California does recognize a public disclosure of private facts tort. My only point was not to get all righteously indignant about a civil right that doesn’t exist.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 19, 2009 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Whether you or Steel Nick or Jeff Bagwell think it’s really a matter of public concern is really irrelevant..

I was asking a question, not challenging you. I’m not a lawyer, I know nothing about the law (except that it is an ass) and I was honestly curious to find out what your take is. I don’t believe there is a right to know about this. Professionally this is a meaningful question for me, but otherwise it is purely irrelevant.

by odradek on Jun 19, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Didn’t mean to come off that way—I was only on my second cup of coffee. I agree with you on a moral level that we don’t have a right to know about this. Besides that, as Nick keeps hammering, all the evidence points to an explicit agreement putting in place strict confidentiality safeguards that have been violated. But on a constitutional law level, the freedom of the press is given much higher priority than individual privacy concerns.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 19, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

No problem. I get surlier with each subsequent cup of coffee. But I’m with Nick on this. Wouldn’t there be a tort issue between players and MLB, who guaranteed confidentiality?

by odradek on Jun 19, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Quite the opposite, it’d be a contract claim. And probably a damn good one.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 20, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get it. So the PA wouldn’t want to open that door. Or even get near it.

by odradek on Jun 20, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think where I’m coming from is we shouldn’t laud the person who leaked Sosa’s name because he had some moral authority to let us know.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Seems we’ve got a lawyer out there with a clock-tower perch, a sniper’s rifle and an attitude.

Was I the only one who thought this was a really questionable metaphor?

by APV on Jun 19, 2009 1:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

No. It was really bad, one of the things that made me surprised at the column

by gmfrodo on Jun 19, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Particularly if you’re then going to lionize the sniper.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 19, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

and I understand the potential usage of a sniper metaphor – but to make the metaphor specific enough where you are actually referencing a specific event in which a lot of people were shot…that seems bad

by APV on Jun 19, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What it seems like — what it is — is a writer fantasizing about players being “shot down” and taking great pleasure in it.

“Dirty” players are a source of personal shame for old-guard baseball writers, so they act out by ultra-villainizing them.

Every non-infantile writer knows that they are as guilty as the players.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jun 19, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think we’ve had this conversation before.

And unfortunately will every time a sealed name gets leaked.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:16 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

We could make it a dead topic, but we have so many lawyers that I think it wouldn’t fly

by Roger Dorn on Jun 19, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I give it about 150 more comments before I’m ready to kill it. At least it’s a lively discussion.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Jun 19, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Am I the only one here that looks past the legal issues to see the sweet irony? The betraying athletes who sought an unfair advantage are now betrayed by MLB and whomever is leaking this information. Whatever principles have been broken by promises unkept are not as dear as breaking the promise to take your son to the ball game or breaking the promise to be faithful to your spouse.

by elsandito on Jun 19, 2009 11:36 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I’m a lawyer. Doing what you suggest is genetically difficult, barring some Clockwork Orange-style reprogramming.

by FredOx on Jun 19, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Baseball is ultra-competitive, only a tiny tiny fraction of the best top baseball players actually make a career out of it. Baseball had a culture which did not in any way penalize, or in some cases codify the ban of, steroids and other related supplements. It is as if there was a crowded sidewalk, no enforcement of jay-walking laws, but a high incentive to get across the street first. And also there is a crowd of people cheering on those people who cross the street first. And a lot of $ involved. Would you jay walk, or walk to the corner and wait for the walk signal?

by APV on Jun 19, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

This analogy also works well for the market meltdown.

by dgcambridge on Jun 19, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I will respect your question with my best thoughts.
I felt that athletes using substances knew they were cheating their rivals and cheating history (in the sense that their records of achievment were not comparable to others). They did it for the money and the glory.
This is why I cannot answer the jaywalking question. I cannot find the parallel in it.

by elsandito on Jun 19, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think you can make the case that jay-walking is worse, in the sense that other people might actually be harmed by jay-walking. The act of using steroids in this context is not going to harm anyone other than the athlete who does it. The obsessive reporting of the “tragedy in baseball” has considerably more collateral fall-out, but that isn’t directly related to the act of steroid use. Especially since the media cheered it on along with the rest of us for so long.

by APV on Jun 19, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

In horseracing, every winner is drug tested. I can’t imagine that people would think this is a bad idea. It is an attempt to preserve as level a playing field as possible. Isn’t this the essence of sport? That athletes would knowingly use a substance on themselves in order to gain an advantage, regardless of managment’s stance, seems destructive to the selling of that activity as true sport.
Corking bats and applying foreign substances to the ball are known dishonest activities that give players an unfair advantage. Are we to condone acts of dishonesty that go undiscovered for a time? Perhaps there are ways to doctor a bat or ball that we aren’t aware of yet. Or perhaps there are performance enhancing drugs that we cannot detect?
Is it enough to follow the letter of the law without regard to that law’s intent?

by elsandito on Jun 19, 2009 5:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tragedy in baseball. You’re right. That’s a reprehensible position now taken by handwringers who chose to ignore the story when it was in full bloom. And it hardly rises to the level of a tragedy. Tragedy in baseball is Nick Adenhart.

by odradek on Jun 19, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I’m being cynical here, but the media in both cases was writing what was selling. In the 1990s it was the home run records, in the 2000s it was the steroids.

by Ryan on Jun 20, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely. Often the same guys.

by odradek on Jun 20, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I am not sure I can agree with this, though that may just confirm my australopithecus sized brain. It seems like the premise driving this analogy is that its basically fine if you jay-walk. Its not that there are a lot of mitigating factors, but that the offense itself is inconsequential. If that is so, then it one basically needs to endorse the view that there is nothing wrong with taking steroids, regardless of the law. That ideally, there should be no rules against either jaywalking or taking PEDs. And perhaps that is true—but its a forthright position only a few are willing to endorse.

Conversely, its hard to see anyone saying that jay-walking laws should be enforced ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE. Which is, presumably, what one would want to say about steroid abuse.

Shoplifting might be a slightly better example. Almost everybody reflexively agrees you shouldn’t shoplift, even thought the consequences are darn small. It doesn’t appear that unreasonable to sign up for universal shoplifting enforcement. But even with the crowds cheering, and lots of other incentives to do it…I have a hard time endorsing the shoplifter. Might just be me though.

by gmfrodo on Jun 19, 2009 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Conversely, its hard to see anyone saying that jay-walking laws should be enforced ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE.

Singapore?

by odradek on Jun 20, 2009 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here’s a better article, by Michael McCann.

by dgcambridge on Jun 19, 2009 1:36 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Constantly updated Indians news, lots of in-depth analysis, live in-game discussions — and more fanatical and thoughtful Indians fans than every other web site combined.
Start posting about the Indians »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

Cbs_fantasy_baseball_promo

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Ketchup_small
Spring Training Photos: 3/12, 3/13, 3/14
Small
SB Nation Survey + Chance to donate $500 to a charity of this community's choice
Small
LGT Fantasy Basseball Roto League - openings remain
Cleveland_indians_select_manny_acta_as_new_manager_small
LGT Yahoo H2H Fantasy Baseball League
Hans_small
Old Timey Baseball Photographs
Small
Bullpen Banter's Indians Preview and our Top 25 Prospects
Dscn0271_small
The Pitchers 2004 vs. 2010
Scared_of_santa_small
top 30 prospects
Small
DYE
39135485-59af19dbb26654095f910f34176af094_4ae8a81e-scaled_small
Predictions Group

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Featured Poll

Poll
Who would you most like to see in the rotation to start the season?

  170 votes | Results

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Mauer Signs 8-Year, $184M Extension
Gutz's 40-time Would Make Him an UDFA
March 20: Talbot Vs Athletes
Kerry Wood Out 6-8 Weeks
Acta's sabermetrics sermon paying off
Carlos Santana had one at bat and smoked a line-drive double. I know...
"We're excited, we potentially could have a rotation at Triple-A full of...
Tribe signs RHP Justin Germano to Minor League Deal
Five Questions: Cleveland Indians
Ron Washington Tested Positive For Cocaine?!!

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

SBNation.com Recent Stories

Chicago Cubs pitcher Angel Guzman, center, rubs the head of teammate Carlos Marmol, left, while chatting with Marmol and manager Lou Piniella, right, on the first day of baseball spring training Thursday, Feb. 18, 2010, in Mesa, Ariz. (AP Photo/Paul Connors)

SB Nation's 2010 MLB Previews: Chicago Cubs, Seeking Redemption

New York Mets starting pitchers Mike Pelfrey, left, Johan Santana, center, and Oliver Perez watch as teammates take part in drills during spring training baseball Saturday, Feb. 27, 2010, in Port St. Lucie, Fla. (AP Photo/Jeff Roberson)

SB Nation's 2010 MLB Previews: New York Mets, The High Cost Of Low Expectations

Washington Nationals pitcher Stephen Strasburg throws during the second inning of  a spring training baseball game against the Detroit Tigers Tuesday, March 9, 2010 in Viera, Fla. (AP Photo/Charlie Riedel)

Nationals Send Stephen Strasburg To Double-A Despite Impressive Spring

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

427px-nap_lajoie_1913_small Ryan

Dosequisman_small Jay

Authors

3444ant_black_small APV

47b8dd28b3127cceb64839d9746800000026102bauwjrq3za_small afh4