Start it with Shapiro
by Jake Taylor on Jun 21, 2009 7:50 AM EDT
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The content of this FanPost has been deleted, as have most of this user's comments.
There was nothing really wrong with what he posted here — I agree with much of his general premise, that there's something wrong with Indians management. However, he was a banned user who is not entitled to post anything here. He posted some profane garbage a couple months ago, was warned twice and eventually banned — three different mods were involved. Today, he snuck back in and created this new UserID, which is unacceptable. If he wants to participate again, he'll need to contact the mods and ask to be reinstated, and for a start, he'll need to promise to uphold the standards of this site.
By the way, "the standards of this site" include treating other members with civility and respect — and by the way, for those too dense to figure this out, that includes treating the mods with civility and respect. The idea that somehow we "can't handle" his "opposing views" is grounds for a good chuckle by anyone with an IQ over 70. There is no "freedom of speech" issue here. He wasn't banned for being right or wrong about the Indians. He was banned for being a total a-hole.
[Jay]
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can’t hit
3rd in the AL in runs scored
can’t bunt or hit behind runners
The Indians don’t bunt often because bunting isn’t usually effective. And please show us stats which prove that the Indians are worse at hitting behind runners than other teams.
You can have legitimate gripes about the Indians, but don’t make up things that aren’t true.
Brad,
Nice attempt at a defense. Why don’t you go out and even find where that statistic is kept, then show me I’m wrong.
Even if the bunt is a small part of the game, it still comes down to the fact that these guys are fundamentally unsound. Waiting for the three-run homer to make up for your mistakes isn’t the way to run a ball team. Haven’t you seen enough over the past week to know that the little things done well win a lot of ball games? Of course, when you don’t know who the guy playing next to you is going to be, I guess it’s hard to get grooved. Grady’s injury demonstrates the complete confusion of this management staff to assess its talent. We’re still playing B-squad spring training games in mid-June. Wedge and Shapiro have bolloxed another season before the All-Star break.
08 81-81 (Bye-bye CC. Gotta keep Westbrook and the best minor league system in the universe.)
07 96-66 (How many simultaneous “career years” and still came up short in post-season? “The Choke”.
06 78-84
05 93-69
04 80-82
03 68-94
02 74-88 (Manuel was 39-48 when dispatched for Blinky, who managed to drop another 5 games off the pace.)
01 91-71
Wedge played in 39 major league games and 658 minor league games. That experience has clearly transferred to the Blueprint.
Shapiro was recommended to the Indians by Hank Peters, architect of the 1965-1971 Indians dynasties that managed 99 losses in 1969 and 102 losses in 1971.
The best indicator of future performance is past performance. You can drink the Kool-Aid. I’ll check back with you in September. You can watch the wheels come off on a daily basis in the mean time.
Jake Taylor was the glue!
Awesome. We’ll wait for your cutting edge analysis in September with eager anticipation. If past performance is correct, we’ll be disappointed.
by dgcambridge on Jun 21, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
You missed this link. You also missed that 40% of our Opening Day roster is gone, that our four best hitters have all missed time and that three fifths of our rotation is injured. But, I’m sure your wealth of knee jerk reaction experience gives you an insight that your five comments here are yet to convey.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
Right. That’s the first sign that your comment lacks any real thought or analysis.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 21, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno, I think I’m alone here, but I think “drinking the kool-aid” has its uses.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 22, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
That all depends on how it’s used. I’ve used it several times, and I don’t recall ever thinking it was weak.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Does anyone else find the phrase offensive? I mean, 900 people died drinking the Kool-Aid Flavor Aid.
by JulioBernazard on Jun 22, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s the primary reason that I never use the phrase in question.
by woodsmeister on Jun 22, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The Titanic was more tragic than the kool-aid drinkers. At least the Kool-aiders controlled their own destiny
Grain alcohol is a good way to make it stronger.
by FredOx on Jun 22, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you are going to make a claim then the burden of proof is on you to show that it’s true, not on someone else to prove that you’re wrong.
I’m going to claim that Jupiter is inhabited by 5-eyed green tigers who speak fluent Latin. If you don’t agree then show me I’m wrong.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 21, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re wrong. It’s Greek.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 21, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if the bunt is a small part of the game, it still comes down to the fact that these guys are fundamentally unsound. Waiting for the three-run homer to make up for your mistakes isn’t the way to run a ball team.
Tell that to the Brewers.
wait…why are we even arguing that the Offense needs to be fixed.?
by world dictator on Jun 22, 2009 5:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Say goodbye to the few major-league caliber ball players that are here.
??
Cliff Lee
Grady Sizemore
Victor Martinez
Asdrubal Cabrera
Shin-Soo Choo
And that’s only naming the guys who either have been or can be considered in the near future, All-Star caliber. And I don’t know if you realize it, but that’s half your lineup.
Couple that with guys like DeRosa, Carroll, Peralta, Hafner, Westbrook, Raffy left and right, and Wood if you feel so inclined.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
Couple that with guys like DeRosa, Carroll, Peralta, Hafner, Westbrook, Raffy left and right, and Wood if you feel so inclined.
I wonder who would actually be so inclined to include the bolded ones?
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 21, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
The only part of the OP I agree with is its conclusion. I understand the frustration, though.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 21, 2009 11:12 AM EDT reply actions
also, OP needs to read this. Particularly #8.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 21, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
I hate when someone makes a statement I might be inclined to agree with but then goes and backs it up with such utterly asinine arguments that I want to completely distance myself from the thought. Happens a lot in politics, too.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
I feel your pain.
For the record, I’m willing to let Shaprio go through a learning curve, if this really is his fault, and stay on. Guy has shown he learns from his mistakes.
Eh, blow it up. Why not.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 22, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Because it could be a lot worse. At least Shapiro’s “failure” seasons still end up around .500, and at least they look good on paper. Other teams don’t have it this good.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I agree with this 100% But I think there are other general managers who I’d rather have. He’s not the best in baseball. I think he might be in the top 10, but he’s not at the top.
Of course, the GM’s above him aren’t getting fired. But maybe someone from their organization could do better (I’m thinking here of Zduriencik with the M’s) and bring a slightly different approach that’s better suited to our market.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Jake,
I will take an opportunity to actually answer some of your frustrations. And apologize because as a fan site sometimes people don’t like “new” people on the board and will ask for statistics and evidence like baseball is a science experiment (and for the love of god never spell something incorrectly or use improper grammar because everyone is a grammar snob). As a fan that has a passion for the Tribe similar to what you do I am frustrated with the team as well, however to say that this team needs to be blown up is going to far. Like has been said before this group has a handful of All-Star and a handful of player that would be considered average of above average MLB players. Actually I probably think that this team is capable of win the Central as currently assembled (not right now but at the beginning of the year).
I think that most of our position players and pitchers need to hear a new voice at manager. And definitely outside of the organization (unless maybe Travis Fryman) however they need someone with energy and someone that will be in their face. If they hire someone with a similar style to Wedge they may as well just keep Wedge. If you think about it and have ever had a teacher or boss telling you how to do something the same way for a long time you start to tune them out and you actually quite listening to even things that might help you improve your career (If you have kids teenagers do this to parents all the time.)
I do think however guys like Carroll or Pavano probably need to go and get something in return bullpen arms or even a 4th or 5th starter will do. I would keep DeRosa he brings too much to the table ( I would keep him I think the organization will trade time) and it is probably time to say good bye to guys like Garko and Benfran, and in my opinion Shoppy (only because of catching depth) packing. I also think that the CC trade will end up being a great benefit to this team over the next 3 years and ironically smaller trades such as the CHOO trade and VALGOOD trade may end up being some of the most amazing work this organization has made.
Once again though I appreciate the thoughts and don’t let them get to you; you at least contribute a thought rather than comment on grammar or spell. So thanks for talking baseball.
Yeah, we’re horrible, always asking for “statistics” and “evidence” instead of knee-jerk ranting like drunks in a bar. There are plenty of places where “you suck” counts as cogent analysis. There are plenty of establishments that don’t frown on public urination (which, come to think of it, has a lot in common with knee-jerk rants). This ain’t that kind of place.
Oh and by the way no one on this board would ever be a good GM thats why we are talking on a FAN BLOG
I love new people.
Your frustration is 100% right. But almost everything else you say — the specifics — is wrong.
Why don’t you go out and even find where that statistic is kept, then show me I’m wrong.
No. If you’re going to assert something — hitting behind runners — then it’s your obligation to offer evidence. Otherwise, you’re just a ranting idiot. I mean, come on, you didn’t even offer anecdotal evidence.
it still comes down to the fact that these guys are fundamentally unsound
Here I think there is a case to be made.
Of course, when you don’t know who the guy playing next to you is going to be, I guess it’s hard to get grooved.
I’m not sure what this means. Are you talking about the injuries, or general shifting around of players in the lineup?
Grady’s injury demonstrates the complete confusion of this management staff to assess its talent.
Again … what does this even mean?
(Bye-bye CC. Gotta keep Westbrook and the best minor league system in the universe.)
Again … what does this mean? Did you have some brilliant, alternative plan for outbidding the Yankees?
07 96-66 (How many simultaneous "career years" and still came up short in post-season? "The Choke"
Wow, this is just pure, embittered stupidity right here. First, if you really look — and I know you haven’t — you’ll find that there weren’t that many career years in 2007. Plenty of down years, in fact. C.C. had a career year, although not really any different than 2006 or 2008. Victor, obviously Fausto, both Rafaels and Jensen. But not Grady or Jhonny. Hafner had his worst season. Mediocre production at all four corner positions, horrible production at 2B, Cliff Lee and Jeremy Sowers totally in the toilet.
In the postseason, we went 7-5 against arguably the two best teams in the game, teams that had a $250 million money advantage over the Indians. Did we “come up short” in terms of not winning the World Series? Yes, obviously. But the team played very, very well in the postseason overall. In a contest between two non-chokers, somebody still has to lose. Losing isn’t choking.
02 74-88 (Manuel was 39-48 when dispatched for Blinky, who managed to drop another 5 games off the pace.)
I assume Blinky is Wedge, but there’s a problem: Wedge wasn’t the manager until the following year. Joel Skinner managed the Indians after Manuel was fired, while Wedge was still the manager in Buffalo.
Wedge played in 39 major league games and 658 minor league games. That experience has clearly transferred to the Blueprint.
Again … what does this even mean? Most managers played more time in the minors than the majors, even the most successful ones.
Shapiro was recommended to the Indians by Hank Peters, architect of the 1965-1971 Indians dynasties that managed 99 losses in 1969 and 102 losses in 1971.
This is perhaps the stupidest of your many stupid comments. Shapiro’s mentor was John Hart, and for that matter, Peters is the one who put Hart in place. But I guess you’d say that all Hart did was build a bunch of teams that choked.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 21, 2009 12:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
For the record, Hank Peters was a very successful GM with Baltimore. The Orioles were hard hit by free agency (imagine losing Wayne Garland) and the aging of their core players, yet avoided the kind of implosions that hit their nearest equivalent teams of that era (A’s and Reds). Under Peters, and with a little help from Earl Weaver, the Orioles won the AL in 1979 and the World Series in 1983, and were competitive most other years in a very tough division.
i wonder if this poster has any inkling what kind of financial turmoil surrunded the Indians ownership during the time Peters was GM? Actually, I don’t wonder at all, I’m pretty sure I know the answer.
I think Jake has a point!
Worst record in the American League, currently being pounded (again) by the Cubs, and a team obviously adrift. It makes me wonder why some of you guys continue to defend an obviously dysfunctional ball club that is maybe Class AAA.5 even when healthy. The rest of June, July, August and September will be ugly. ANd I’m not just talking about the hater faces here.
by No Balls Two Strikes on Jun 21, 2009 4:23 PM EDT reply actions
This is my biggest quibble with all of these drive-by posts. Why does everyone think this website is 100% supportive of everything the team does? Just because we don’t want to blow up the whole team and start from scratch doesn’t mean we are 100% behind everything they do. I feel like there is a lot more criticism than positivity here. It doesn’t make sense
Inevitably, this comes from an anti-social douchebag with no real interest in dialogue. Very self-satisfied with the way they already interpret the world around them, can’t possibly have anything to learn. Anger seems to be a big part of the reason they are fans at all.
I do understand the mentality that we’re too supportive of management, but I think it’s coming from a higher rational place. Ultimately, the position that the team makes a lot of good decisions, has more info than we have and also has more expertise … well, that position is all kinds of rational, but it’s deeply unsatisfying for the vast majority of fans, including most folks here.
This site is most hospitable for those who aren’t willing to “go there” — that is, to go to a deeply irrational and hateful place — in order to be “satisfied” in that way.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Perhaps we are too zealous about the good things the front office does without acknowledging the short-comings (although your new post is as good as a angry fan could hope for.) I still get excited despite the losing season to talk about how we absolutely stole Choo and Asdrubal
Shapiro: Hey, look over there!
/takes Choo and Cabrera and runs
(two years later)
Shapiro: Ok, so a few years ok I stole from you 2 guys who are awesome. I’m sorry. Here’s Franklin Gutierrez.
/runs
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
I imagine the Dolans are enlisting opinions of baseball people to get a feel for whether they should make changes or stand pat.
A sense of urgency would be in order only because the Dolans would like to distance themselves from whatever growing negativity is brewing in the fan base.
I think, at this point, the decision to stand pat would only be a result of avoiding destructive influences to the team. And there is a pretty fair chance that they would decide to stand pat.
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