However Beautiful the Strategy
The season is over. We've had some dreadful luck, but a reversal of fortune by itself couldn't change the commanding position our rivals cumulatively hold over us. We're five games behind Chicago and no better than they are, in terms of runs scored and allowed. We're six games behind a Minnesota squad that overall has been 37 runs better. And we're now ten games behind Detroit and 49 runs worse than them.
The differences in runs matter for two reasons. First, they show that our poor standing isn't just about bad luck, timing and leverage. Just because we're 13 games under .500, with 12 losses that should have been wins, doesn't mean we should be 11 games over. It doesn't work that way. We should have won most of those 12 games but not all of them, and we stole a few back, too. Bad luck and timing aside, this club is still a mediocrity at best, and injuries happen to all clubs, not just ours. That leads me to the second reason that the differences in runs matter: They suggest strongly that there's little reason to think we can catch Detroit or Minnesota, and we're not even 50-50 to catch Chicago.
Let's be honest. Luck can't explain the club's manifest mediocrity, three years out of four. The Indians front office has won respect and accolades within the industry, adoration across the blogosphere and plenty of lavish praise on this very site. The Indians consistently have put together good teams on paper that fell apart on the field. We've excused them for bad luck, for random variation, for injuries and variance and vagaries. At this point, it is fair to say, simply, that the people in charge have not gotten the job done.
Winston Churchill said it best: "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."
Can we discuss this like adults? Should we even try? Hard to say. It is so much simpler just to say, fire the manager. The Indians have failed; we know that much. We have a pretty clear idea how they've failed, but we're pretty fuzzy on why. There are web forums now boiling over with the usual reasons and theories, the sorts of things that get dismissed here out of hand. For most of those theories, it's time to redouble our dismissiveness — the problem surely isn't that we've failed to give Barfield more of an opportunity. For others, it may be time to reconsider.
I won't fault Shapiro's front office for having a plan. (How stupid is that? Would we rather they didn't have a plan?) I would like to pose some theories as to why the Shapiro program has failed much more than it has succeeded up to this point. Each theory deserves a lot more thought and research than a new dad is likely to cough up after midnight — that would be none — but that will come later. For now, let's just try out some new ideas — and old ones.
Theory #1: They might as well be bloggers.
Maybe the joke is on us. The Indians make the "right" moves, like signing Dave Dellucci, not the "wrong" moves, like signing Raul Ibañez. They know the stats, we know the stats, so when they make a move, it looks right to us. Problem is, we tend to forget that the numbers rarely tell us the full story. It's one thing to argue the numbers with a fellow fan — all I've got is the numbers, and all he's got is the numbers, because neither of us are scouts — but it's quite another to praise a front office for being able to Paint By Numbers. I mean, hell, any of us could paint by the numbers.
Maybe it isn't a good thing that I can understand and explain most every move the Indians make. Maybe they should be making moves that don't make sense to me — because after all, all I've got are the numbers. The saberblog view is essentially that since the numbers are all we can be sure about, the numbers are all that matter, and anything else is pure luck. In other words, the entire career of a GM like Pat Gillick was pure luck.
The Indians have done a great job at amassing value on paper, but they've shown little ability to discover value that isn't evident in the numbers. I've been able to explain pretty well why the Indians do almost everything that they do — aside from burying Marte. Maybe that's a problem.
Theory #2: The scouting and player evaluation is mediocre.
It is entirely possible that the Indians simply don't have a good scouting apparatus and don't have a genuinely gifted group of evaluators in the organization. Where there's a clear track record and a big sample size of performance data, the Indians have done a pretty good job of figuring out which players have value, but they rarely are in the market for such players. More often, they're in the market for a third-tier veteran, with a spotty or inconsistent track record, often distorted by injury.
Samples in baseball are never really "controlled" in a scientific sense, but drastic variance in a player's physical health render a player's entire performance record essentially moot. Imagine if some ballparks half as large and others twice as large, and imagine you never really knew which ballpark a player was playing in for any given game — injuries are like that. For many other players — for every reliever — there isn't that much of a record to go on, and the ability to amass performance data and project it forward is basically useless; what your evaluators see with their own eyes and report to the club is paramount.
Antonetti pointedly noted last winter that no team consistently out-performs the market in free agency, but this is an odd defense. For an organization with the stated goal of producing industry-best results in all phases of its operation, the failure to out-perform the market is simply that: a failure. It is the front office's function to outperform the market on statistical analysis, and also to outperform the market on valuation and risk assessment, and finally to outperform the market on scouting. That is, if there are five players who project stastistically to similar performance in the coming year, the Indians ought to be able to pick which one is likeliest to outperform (and least likely to underperform) that statistical projection, based on the scouting alone. There is little evidence that the Indians have the ability to do this, especially when you look at the ways the Indians have outperformed and underperformed in acquiring talent.
The Indians often are criticized for a conservative draft strategy, but the criticisms don't really add up. I think the numbers show that the Indians' strategy makes perfect sense, but there's a much stronger case that their mediocre yield is simply the result of mediocre scouting. Right strategy, wrong players.
In free agency, the Indians can't shop at the top of the market, nor can they usually sign second-tier players who generally represent very poor value in terms of risk and marginal wins. The analysis leads them to third-tier players, but their scouting may not be good enough to select the right ones. Right strategy, wrong players.
Business analysis has the Indians investing heavily in much of Latin America, while pulling back in the corrupt and over-saturated Dominican and moving into other international markets. They've done very well in this area, but why? I submit to you that the Indians have had some breakthrough conceptual ideas in their development strategy — education and dentistry among them — and that beyond that, this is basically a numbers game. The Yankee Years has a great digression about how the Indians ended up with a guy like Fausto Carmona, and Shapiro essentially concedes that it's a cattle call. You don't need great scouting to sign a few dozen 15- and 16-year-olds with really great tools, and beyond that, productivity in Latin American signings is about process and volume, not evaluation.
Yes, what I'm suggesting is that scouting 16-year-olds may not be all that hard, and that's why the Indians can excel in this area. It may be that scouting 18-year-olds isn't hard either — maybe the Indians could outperform other teams if they drafted more high school players, but their analysis is telling them (correctly) that that's a bad idea. Perhaps the analysis says they need to focus on more fully developed college players — the kind they may not be all that great at scouting. How would that be for irony?
The Indians have also done very well in trades for prospects, but they are always acquiring prospects who are thriving in Double-A or who are performing very well at a young age in Advanced-A. Think about the big line that the PTM system draws, between age-22 in Advanced-A and age-23 in Double-A. It takes great scouting to identify college players who eventually will perform very well in Double-A, or high schoolers who someday soon will thrive in Advanced-A. Once they've done that, however, it probably doesn't take particularly good scouting to figure out that they're probably going to make good major leaguers.
Or maybe we really needed to keep Tony LaCava. I can't help but notice that Brian Tallet is having a much better career than Billy Traber.
Theory #3: Their statistical analysis isn't all that great.
I know, this one seems like it's out of left field. I think it's beyond question that the Indians are doing an amazing job of collecting the data. They're collecting all kinds of crazy things, from the distance the catcher's mitt has to move to catch each pitch to the quotes that players give to reporters after the game. There's no question that high-quality data collection is the foundation of high-quality data analysis, but not everyone who's doing the former is getting the latter.
Before hiring Keith Woolner last year, the Indians didn't even have a full-time data analysis executive. It was, apparently, assistant GMs and interns running numbers in Excel whenever they wanted to analyze something. So we had a club spending $100 million on players every year, spending upwards of $1 million on data collection, and apparently not spending $100,000 on dedicated data analysis. And while the Indians' decisions have been sabermetrically sound, again, there's scant evidence that their methods are more advanced than those used by dozens of bloggers every day. In particular, they seem to be fixated on positional value — VORP, Sabermetrics 101 — while evidently being baffled by defensive value — until recently, a doctoral-level topic in sabermetrics.
Think about it. We could have stuck a group of defensively excellent, mediocre hitters in center field, at shortstop and catcher, while moving Grady, Jhonny and Victor to LF, 3B and 1B — years ago. We would have had outstanding defense at basically all six of those positions — and the kicker is, we ended up with a bunch of crap hitters at all the corner positions anyway. Gootz in center, Asdrubal at shortstop, Shoppach at catcher. Hell, we could have done that this year.
How long did we stick with Jhonny at shortstop? How many runs did it cost us? And now, quick — what's the difference in positional value between shortstop and third base? Would you believe it's only five runs over 162 games? And the difference between LF and CF is ten runs. Does anyone believe that the difference in defensive skill between Sizemore-Gutierrez and Dellucci-Sizemore is only ten runs?
Let me assure you, I am only playing devil's advocate here. It is by no means clear that any of those decisions were wrong. I'm just saying, there's a case to be made that the Indians' application of sabermetric concepts is fairly unsophisticated. I mean, seriously, they're putting Garko in the outfield. You can't tell me they really understand defensive value when they do things like that.
Theory #4: Eric Wedge has no clue.
I have long held that fire-the-manager is the lowest form of baseball discourse, but as many here have noted, my tune changed earlier this year. It's one thing to argue, year after year, that we can't prove that the Many Bad Things that happen to the Indians are the manager's fault. But after a certain number of years, the question rightly should be reversed. With so many qualified candidates in the world for such a tiny number of jobs, at some point, the question becomes not why fire him, but why hire him?
In other words, what reason do we have to believe that he's helping this team win games in any way?
Eric Wedge may be a special guy. He may be special friend. He may even be a great motivational speaker. But it is time to put to rest the assertion that he is a great motivator. We have had some great talents who've had some great seasons, but apart from them, it seems we've seen a lot more down years than up years from our regulars. If Wedge is such a great leader, how has his leadership helped Peralta, Garko, Francisco or Carmona?
Who, in fact, has it actually helped? Guys like Sizemore or Martinez, who are so famously self-motivated?
Understand, I'm not impressed with dissection of Wedge's tactical game. Managers are often criticized for sticking with their starters too long — allegedly trying to get them the "W" — but this criticism misses the basic fact that a struggling starter is almost always a better pitcher than the club's 6th or 7th best reliever, and that's the pitcher who's going to get used in the 5th or 6th inning. As for bunts and hit-and-runs and the like, those plays more often than not are close to break-even, with the specific personnel involved more than capable of tilting the balance one way or the other.
No, the apparent problem with Wedge is much worse. He doesn't seem to have any kind of grasp on which players deserve playing time. Time after time, we've seen hundreds of plate appearances given to hitters whose results are terrible and have been terrible for a long time. This gets back both to player evaluation issues and to the monoculture. Wedge consistently and openly favors players whom he feels are giving him a "quality at-bat" or who have "the right approach." (I don't mean to mock by my use of quotes, only to quote.)
Here's what Wedge doesn't seem to grasp. Those players with the lousy results and great approach are getting the lousy results despite the great approach. The great approach doesn't suggest that the player will do better; rather, if the Indians are right about what constitutes a great approach, then a great approach suggests that that player can't do any better than he already has been doing. Specifically, it doesn't mean that Dellucci is going to bounce back; it means that this is the best he can do. He's seasoned and maximizing his game, and his production likely can be matched by even a raw and inconsistent Matt LaPorta. In decision after decision, Wedge has favored a player whose approach he respected over one with actual upside.
Theory #5: They've created a monoculture.
We've been kicking this one around for about three years, and the evidence has mounted that not only is it true, but it's harmful. They're looking for a certain kind of player personality, and they've found about 18 of them, and a little too often, all 18 of them slump at the same time.
If you aren't one of Shapiro's Right Guys, you can't get in this organization. And if you aren't one of Wedge's Right Guys, you can't get in the lineup. I don't excuse Brandon Phillips for his crap attitude, and I don't excuse Jhonny Peralta for being a young veteran who doesn't respond to coaching. Still, it is undeniably a failing of this organization that with players who don't fit a certain mold, there is a total breakdown in communication. If you're not in, you're way, way out.
The monoculture extends most noticeably (and humorously) to the front office personnel, where it has produced a group of people whose ideas, speech patterns and jargon are utterly interchangeable. (If we asked Brad Grant about th Hafner contract and Antonetti about the draft, would the answers really be any different?) The Indians insist that they have an open organization where everyone is empowered and ideas are heard. But what if they seek out and retain people who essentially have the same types of ideas?
Shapiro's character test has always been at once admirable and dubious. His job is to build a championship-caliber baseball club, and the Indians already have the deck stacked against them when it comes to financial resources. Is it really wise to further restrict the players who we're willing to sign based on highly subjective character judgment? I recognize that creating a great clubhouse culture has its upside, but it's inevitable that in a limited marketplace for talent, you can't put a premium on personality while holding constant your premium for talent.
Sandy Koufax said it all: "In the end it comes down to talent. You can talk all you want about intangibles, I just don't know what that means. Talent makes winners, not intangibles. Can nice guys win? Sure, nice guys can win — if they're nice guys with talent. Nice guys with a little talent finish fourth, and nice guys with no talent finish last." (I've pulled this one out before, but it bears reprinting.)
This doesn't just apply to players, either, but to everyone in the organization. Here's a chilling thought for you — maybe by insisting on the Right Guys across the board, they've managed to miss out on many of the best scouts.
Theory #6: This is all one big problem.
A few years ago, it was fashionable to speculate about why Billy Beane's "stuff" doesn't work in the postseason. A better question now might be, why doesn't it work in Cleveland? The most obvious explanation is that Shapiro cares a great deal about things that Beane basically doesn't care about at all. Specifically, he cares about the character of his players, he cares about what each player might mean to the community, and he cares about what his manager thinks. While I'm sure all of that makes for a more rewarding workplace, there is scant evidence that any of it has helped the Indians win games.
Analysis and decision-making often drift toward areas of organizational confidence, even if that drift puts decisions out of balance. The Indians are appropriately humble about statistical projections, but they must figure that they know as much as anyone else about this. They're confident that they know what makes a player a good teammate, and they know what "the right approach" looks like. Given the subjectivity of scouting, they favor the player with the best statistical projection. Given the uncertainty of statistical projection, they favor the player who has a great approach and is a great teammate. And given the vagaries of defensive evaluation, they favor putting a player in his most valuable position, because that math is simpler. They are sure that a slugging catcher is more valuable than a slugging first baseman, and they are sure that Dellucci's approach is better than LaPorta's, and they are sure that Casey Blake is a better teammate than anyone in the world.
So if you're looking to wrap it all up in one big theory, here it is: The Indians are smart, serious and well-intentioned. But when they make their decisions, they put a lot of emphasis on a bunch of things that, in the grand scheme of things, really do not help a baseball team win ballgames. I can't tell you how to build a bullpen that isn't historically bad, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have much to do with statistically analyzing a very small sample of innings or showing up to camp in good shape, and it doesn't have anything to do with being a good teammate or getting along with Eric Wedge. The Indians seem to know an awful lot about those subjects and almost nothing about putting together a non-horrible bullpen.
That, and maybe their scouting sucks.
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397 comments
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Comments
This is a terrific analysis, Jay (and far more lucid, I might add, than anything that I ever thought in the middle of the night with new babies). It seems spot-on, actually. Fire Wedge, don’t fire him, it doesn’t really matter in the short-term. Your analysis rightly points not only to managerial incompetence but to structural issues in the front office, and this is the more worrisome problem.
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
by jdudas on Jun 22, 2009 6:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great read.
Perhaps success is a just little more random than we’d like to believe. The near pennant-winning 2007 team had two major things going for it: season-long health (particularly in the starting rotation), and a bullpen (with many of the same parts we have today) than happened to gel at the same time.
When a team can’t keep a Sabathia, things just have to go right.
by DixonCayne on Jun 22, 2009 7:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Teams lose stars all the time, and they survive and even thrive. That ain’t it. The Mariners won 116 games right after they dumped Johnson, Griffey and A-Rod in successive seasons. The Indians have never suffered a loss of that magnitude.
Seems to me that our #2 and #3 starters coming in 2007 both spent most of the year on the DL or in the minors.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oops, it was 2006 when the rotation was healthy. I dare say losing stars is not generally a formula for consistent winning.
by DixonCayne on Jun 22, 2009 9:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it is a fact of life for most teams.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is a great post with a ton of perspective, something I really like. But Jay would probably agree with me that if Rafael Perez and Jensen Lewis had been the guys we thought they would be, the Tribe would likely be slightly above .500 and Jay probably wouldn’t have even thought of putting this post together. Sigh.
by TribeJay on Jun 22, 2009 8:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And TribeJay would probably agree with me that we were too optimistic about Perez and Lewis.
If you undo our most egregious misfortunes, I still see a mediocre team. Some unexpected good things have happened to this team, too.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve never really liked Lewis. Perez and Betancourt I am always way too optimistic about though
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not about Perez. Lewis, maybe.
PItching has been a complete fail. But i think the team in the field has produced pretty well, even with some poor performances.
Also, I think if you make a list of guys who have achieved or exceeded reasonable expectations, it pales in comparison to the list of guys who have failed or been a complete failure.
by TribeJay on Jun 22, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I think if you make a list of guys who have achieved or exceeded reasonable expectations, it pales in comparison to the list of guys who have failed or been a complete failure.
How is this not the fault of the manager and the front office?
by NickFantana on Jun 22, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps it could be the manager, but it’s tough to lay that one on the front office. What should they have done differently to prevent some of the epic fails?
I’m talking about their performance in comparison to past, established performance.
by TribeJay on Jun 22, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the part I don’t get. To me, the list of guys who are performing at or above expectations is, by and large, the same list of guys who have a long history of “established performance” to judge by.
by NickFantana on Jun 22, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guys who have some history of established performance (to varying degrees) that have been disappointing:
Sizemore
Peralta
Francisco
Garko
Shoppach
Carmona
Sowers
Reyes
Wood
Perez
J. Lewis
That’s 40% of your Opening Day roster. Some are very marginal on this list (Sowers, Reyes, Garko), since expectations weren’t that high. But some of these are epic fails, and with guys that performed very well in the past.
Again, if this team had a decent bullpen, this thread wouldn’t exist…
by TribeJay on Jun 22, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The “to varying degrees” caveat pretty much ruins this list. Anyone relying on Francisco or Garko to be decent was always going to be in for a surprise. Reyes had one good month under his belt and Lewis has always been mediocre at best. I think the problem here is that these guys aren’t very good, not that we expected too much of them.
The legitimate complaints, in my mind, are Sizemore, Peralta, Wood, Carmona, and Perez. Only two of them are involved in the current bullpen cluster.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 22, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I would further argue that Perez does not have a long enough track record to suggest he was impervious to struggle or that Wood had a long enough track record as a closer to suggest that he was an automatic bear killer. Also, Carmona doesn’t have any kind of track record at all. He has one good season.
So, it’s Sizemore and Peralta and a bunch of average talent playing like average players.
The problem I have is that we lump Lewis and Perez together, or Sizemore and Shoppach together, like both struggles are equally surprising and dramatic. Certainly, I thought Lewis would be better than he has been, but I had no illusions he’d be below a 4 era. And, frankly, I think most people felt strongly that Francisco, Garko and Sowers were very limited players coming into this season, complimentary players who should not be counted on to provide any value above replacement.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fausto was also good in the pen before he was tried as a closer.
by odradek on Jun 23, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me, there’s a wide gulf between success and a track record. That’s what is tripping me up.
I think the biggest lesson the Indians have taught us, as baseball fans, is that it takes several (3+) years of success to have a reasonable confidence interval in future performance. Frankly, next season I will be a lot more skeptical of any expected production from players with a short or non-existent track record.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Additionally, I would argue that the players with track records who are underperforming are more than equalized by the unexpected surprises (Cabrera, Pavano, Laffey, Herges.) In sum, my belief is that the Indians have been undone not by bad luck or shocking regression but by an overall talent level far below what the FO and we as fans believed it to be. I know I am certainly guilty of buying into the organizational hype too much and I think a lot of people here were doing the same thing.
Bottom line, I think anyone who expects this team to be competitive next year without significant changes is going to be proven wrong again.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read em and weep. I agree with you, though I would still argue for the inclusion of rotten luck. Though it takes several years to make sure, it is understandable that we make hopeful projections based on a year-plus of positive results. Jhonny certainly has several years of success, and then this. Grady, well, you can presume injury. And look at them.
As a matter of fact, I tend to shy away from unified answers. Why offer only one cause when you can have more than one? Perhaps it’s almost all these things, which still doesn’t diminish from your lesson about confidence in future performance. There’s been a lot of counting-chickens-before hatched here too. All of it understandable, from the emotional vantage of a fan.
by odradek on Jun 23, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good points. Certainly bad luck has been part of it. We have had good luck too, however.
Ultimately, I’m trying to live up to some of what Jay talked about at the end of his post. Beyond sabermetrics, how can we evaluate what this, and other, front offices have done? In that regard, the biggest takeaway for me from the past few seasons is to understand the difference between success and a track record of success.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Responding to this and your earlier points…I’m on the total other side of this. I said some of this below, but I don’t buy this idea that we were so fooled.
1. PECOTA was also wrong, and so was any other projection system. And I haven’t seen any evidence that scouts held a contrary belief. PECOTA doesn’t care a bit about Shapiro’s reputation. I’m fine with saying that we need to look beyond the numbers, but are we sure that standard scouting would have done that?
2. Minor league track record matters too. It does. It’s the number one rule of the whole Bill James push. It’s not perfect, of course.
3. So you want players with established major league track record of success? How about 3 years of sustained success, and on this young side of 32? Hey, no problem, let’s go get those guys! Also, the Cavs should go get young, athletic, tall players, who can create their own shot, limit turnovers, play solid D, rebound, and play unselfishly. Let’s go get those guys!
By the way, we have a few guys with that track record —> Martinez, Sizemore, Hafner. Each of whom has had a collapse year in 2007 or 2008.
I get that Carmona only had one year of dominance. Or Raffy P. But I don’t think other MLB teams are any different. No other team was going to look at his 2007, and say, “We’re going to go out and get awesome sure-thing starters while we wait for this guy to prove his stuff for a couple of years.” Totally unrealistic.
by dgcambridge on Jun 23, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your argument is understood. But you’re putting words into my mouth. I wasn’t advocating that we should go out and get a bunch of sure-thing starters. I was advocating that we be less willing to believe that every single player will meet or exceed their projections. If you do that with this roster, the talent level matches the record a lot more closely. At that point, an indictment of the front office becomes a lot more persuasive.
As for Martinez, Sizemore and Hafner collpasing, I think this year has proven that Martinez and Hafner’s struggles were the result of injury, not inconsistent production. You’re trying to lump them together and I’m trying to separate them.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, fair enough. If you point is not about what the FO should be doing, but about our expectations as fans, that’s hard to argue with. But was 85 wins based on every player meeting or exceeding their projections? I’m not so sure.
Many of our bigs’ struggles are injury related, for sure. But that’s irrelevant. My point is that those struggles have to considered the main problem with 08/09, and that’s why I’m not so quick to blow up the team OR the system.
by dgcambridge on Jun 23, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s confounding about this is what you suggested, yesterday, which is that we don’t count out the possibility that we do nothing. I don’t discount that, either, but that means very little change in the way we do things, and then holding our breath for 2010. No matter how sophisticated the projection system, no matter how many experts picked us to win the division, if that doesn’t translate to performance on the field it doesn’t really matter. This isn’t stratomatic where we can re-run infinite 2009 seasons on the computer and the stats will bear out (we’ll be better more often than we won’t).
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 23, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t suggest that we do nothing for next year. We add a starter or two. We continue to go after the bullpen. We keep working. We aim to contend. We see where our young guys are, and plug them in efficiently. Any individual player is available to trade, if it improves our team, but we don’t blow up this thing. Shapiro stays.
I’m all for re-evaluating how we scout players. Hire different scouts. Hire more scouts. Hire old scouts. Make Sowers into a scout. Figure out how to beat the computer predictions. But don’t wait around until we cure cancer – put our most talented team out there in 2010 and try again. Please – no fire sale where we strip down to pre-2008 Devil Rays and try to build around White and Chisenhall and the next few years of draft picks. Because the odds are still against you that you’ll end up with a Rays-dynasty level team.
Anyway, that’s what I say. I’m not entirely sure what anyone else is suggesting, so I’ll wait and listen.
by dgcambridge on Jun 23, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Complete agreement here
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 23, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing in Perez’s track record even remotely suggested a failure of this magnitude.
by TribeJay on Jun 23, 2009 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that he’s a relief pitcher.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True. He was a starter that we had little hopes for until his bullpen conversion
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll agree that he was never labeled as a top of the rotation guy, but look at his minor league numbers…impressive at most every stop.
by TribeJay on Jun 24, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So is putting together a bullpen all luck then?
I’ll make sure to quote you on that when discussing reliever performance in the future. ;)
by TribeJay on Jun 24, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t say that — but if you’re going only on the stats, then it may be almost entirely luck.
The point I really mean to make is that you can’t say the chance of any reliever failing is remote, short of a guy like Mariano.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 24, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK…this is along the lines of what I really should have asked you. Is it unreasonable to have any expectations for a reliever except for the upper crust of relievers?
by TribeJay on Jun 24, 2009 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I guess not, it’s just not reasonable to be very confident about them. We might be getting the median projection right, but those 25° and 75° projections are a bitch.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 24, 2009 8:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It only ruins the list if you look at it from one direction. The “varying degrees” works the other way as well. It’s one thing if Carmona and Perez were disappointing or mediocre. It’s another if they’re arguably the worst starter and reliever in the league. This is the argument that dgcambridge lays out below, and it’s an excellent point. I’m in complete agreement with him on this topic.
So I shouldn’t have booked Francisco for the AS game? Hmmm. OK, but nothing in his recent performance would suggest that his OPS should be .673 either. Possible, yes. Anything more than that, no.
by TribeJay on Jun 23, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A ten-week OPS of 673 for Francisco is not unusual in any way, nor would be a ten-week OPS of 873 or 773.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough. Ben Fran wasn’t a big part of the argument. But if you were told his OPS was .673 on June 23, would you have been disappointed, even slightly?
by TribeJay on Jun 24, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disappointed? Yeah, I guess, because there’s always a chance he’s having a fluke good couple of months, so I’d be disappointed that that didn’t happen, like I was disappointed when I didn’t win the lottery.
Surprised? Not in the least.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 24, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who knows? Maybe there was something unseen that allowed players like Peralta, Sizemore, Shoppach and Barfield to underperform so dramatically when they all had major-league success. Maybe Wedge was insulting to them or something. I don’t mean that seriously, but I mean there could be plenty of reasons.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
on what grounds should we have been bearish about perez?
by gmfrodo on Jun 23, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
rec rec rec. what a post. Lot of food for thought here. great work jay.
by gmfrodo on Jun 22, 2009 8:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great post, Jay. Some great insight. Hopefully we can start to actually pinpoint the exact problem(s) and make some changes, but I think you hit the nail on the head.
by ToledoTribeFan on Jun 22, 2009 8:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Which nail? Jay’s brought a lot of valid criticisms to the fore, but that’s all… yet. Until we see some changes in the way business is done—and some corresponding changes in results—who knows what is working and what isn’t?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is hard to see what is going to work and what isn’t… But the nail I was referring to is the depth of analysis which Jay did. It wasn’t just a “Fire Wedge” article by Jay, but instead a set of quality problems that we as a team need to pursue and look into… I hope we can figure it out quick Manhattan :)
by ToledoTribeFan on Jun 22, 2009 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Top stuff Jay.
But where do we go from here?
And more importantly, what do Lee, Westbrook, Pavano, Wood, Martinez, Hafner, Sizemore and Peratla bring us when we start really blowing this thing up?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You just got lesson number one: don't think; it can only hurt the ball club.
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by RasenFridge on Jun 22, 2009 8:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You really think that’s happening? Honestly.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jun 22, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone but Sizemore, it could, I don’t see why not. If next year is no better than this year, Lee is definitely gone, Hafner is probably unmovable, Vic might stay (but it probably doesn’t matter because we’d likely lose him in FA and will be getting older), and it’s too soon to tell what kind of value Peralta, Wood and Westbrook will have. Sizemore is exactly the kind of guy you dream about building around if you are starting from scratch. He, Choo (aside from any funky military stuff) and Droobs will definitely be here for the next several years.
by jakesinger777 on Jun 22, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is part of the problem, always blowing it up for two year from now,
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jun 22, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, instead, we should what? You complain, but I never see any suggestions.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 22, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Criticizing the club for trading veterans for prospects is the flip side of “Dolan is Cheap.”
by FredOx on Jun 22, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t necessarily see it that way. “Always blowing it up for two years from now” is a a legit criticism, separate from complaints about cheapness. What it means, simply, is that they never seem to be able to get it together right now.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In other words, nobody ever says this when we’re winning, but we don’t seem to be winning often enough.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But isn’t it the perfect strategy for after the failure?
by Voltaire on Jun 22, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is absolutely possible that Shapiro and/or Wedge are really good at dismantling a team and acquiring good talent and getting them to play hard. They just may not be good at taking the next step to (consistent) contention of a championship.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jun 23, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I would agree that this (may) be the case. I hinted at this below, too.
by Voltaire on Jun 23, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but you can’t blame a fan for being sour about it.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still say I can tell the difference between (1) a fan bitter that the team doesn’t win, thus making the trades the right decision and (2) “if Dolan wasn’t so cheap, we could have kept C.C.” The former makes perfect sense; the latter not so much.
by FredOx on Jun 23, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and what has your suggestions done to make the team better?
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jun 22, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so was the comment
“And, instead, we should what? You complain, but I never see any suggestions”
I was not complaining but stating that you can not keep trading guy like Vic, Sizemore, Lee, and have a winning team, sometime need to look at now not three or four years down the road.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jun 23, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is probably why we haven’t traded Sizemore, Martinez or Lee.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 23, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It was entirely appropriate, in context.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know, one of the unheralded advantages of dumping Lee, Martinez, Peralta and Wood would be that we’d be in the thick of the Bryce Harper sweepstakes. That wouldn’t be terrible.
by NickFantana on Jun 22, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which he probably will. No way I would take a flier on that kid.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 22, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because he is 16 years old, because he still lives with his parents, because he hasn’t finished puberty, because he is two years from finishing high school, because he hasn’t faced very competition, but mostly because he is 16.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 22, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about all of the Latin American players we have signed at that age? Would you rather give them back?
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure those players didn’t come at anywhere close to half of going for what this kid will, money wise.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
RIght.
What about all of the Latin American players we have signed at that age?
All of them combined might have been signed for as much as Harper will be.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s not even remotely the same circumstance and I think we both know that. Jay and USSChoo hit on the main issue. Why would we pay a kid who hasn’t even had a serious girlfriend that kind of money? The odds of him reaching the majors at any point in his career are minuscule.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 22, 2009 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The points you listed weren’t monetary reasons though. I am not advocating drafting the guy, but sometimes a collection of scouts raving about someone at age 16 are right. The low odds of making the majors have exceptions for supreme talents
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That said, I don’t want him after reading that his dream is to “wear the pinstripes and play in Yankee stadium”
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, excepting the monetary then, has he really proved he is a supreme talent? How? He’s a 16 year old kid who hasn’t done much more than slap around high school pitching. Corey Smith did that. He’s immature, both physically and mentally, and he’s very, very raw. Why waste the pick?
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 23, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not scout so I am going by what scouts are saying. Could Corey Smith ever throw 96 mph? There are Corey Smiths and then there are guys that are even more talented than that out of high school
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if Cleveland had the #1 pick, would Shapiro even consider taking that kid?
Too bad you can’t trade draft picks.
by cleveland teamer on Jun 23, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He should consider it depending on the actual signing bonus and what his scouts tell him
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He better consider it. Considering that he’s one of those consensus best talents type of players, he should be taken #1 overall.
by Cols714 on Jun 23, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the point I have been trying to make. When the scouts are in agreement that this could be a special player, throw your risk model out the window and take the kid
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s still high school. He’s never been injured, and he will be, he’s never faced anyone close to his level, and he will. He’s a product of the hype machine he helped create. I did like him in Lady in the Water though.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 23, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Guys like Joe Mauer and Josh Hamilton received similar scouting reports coming out of high school. While using Hamilton as an example probably supports your opinion, my point has been that certain guys have excellent scouting reports and that teams should think long and hard about drafting these guys even if the cost is high
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good thing the Tigers didn’t buy into that hype about Rick Porcello.
by ClarkM on Jun 23, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where do we go from here? I don’t know.
Where the team goes from here, hopefully, is some serious reflection and a true openness to do things differently.
Where we go from here as fans and critics, I think, is that we start developing ways to test criticisms of a club that sabermetrically leaves little to be criticized. It’s much easier to be a sophisticated fan of the Reds or Cubs, but when your team does so many things “right” and things go wrong anyway, you have to take your criticism to a whole new level.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Good stuff Jay.
Weird question here on scouting …
The Indians minor league scouting seems pretty good … I mean they apparently identified guys like Choo, Cabrera, Valbuena, Santana (even tho he was having a monster year), etc. as players to pick up in dump trades.
It’s the amateur scouting that really concerns me.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 22, 2009 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A question based off that… Did Hart carry a different crew of scouts? I’m 22, so the days of Hart for me were more just images of a great 90’s team with Lofton, Thome, etc… I’m curious to see how Hart’s scouting crew/front office compares to Shapiro’s scouting/front office… FallsTribeFan has some good thoughts…
by ToledoTribeFan on Jun 22, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a fair question …
It’s interesting to me that the draft seemed to take a turn for the better in the past couple years when Mirabelli stopped running it … and Grant took over …
I mean we won’t know the true answer for several years I suppose.
Shapiro can’t scout every player himself … he needs to rely on Mirabelli/Grant to bring him the info.
Another question for me about the drafts is whether the fault lies in the scouting or the approach.
As for your point … I would think there has been some turnover since the Hart days, but I have no idea of the true answer.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 22, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn’t it too soon to tell if the drafts are better with Grant? Isn’t this wishful thinking?
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said … we won’t know the answer for several years.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 22, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s the approach to the approach.
by randallhank on Jun 22, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s obviously been some turnover among the guys who actually watch the games, but the player development/scouting crew in the front office has been around for a long time. Shapiro joined the Indians in 1991. Antonetti, Mirabelli and Atkins started in 1999, Brad Grant in 1994. All in different roles, of course.
by FredOx on Jun 22, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You might change you question from who the Indians are targeting, and start thinking instead about how much the team is willing to pay for them.
by fleerdon on Jun 22, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s part of it too.
But I think the amateur draft is a 3 headed problem … reluctance to pay, bad strategy, and poor scouting.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 22, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Indians minor league scouting seems pretty good …
I attempted to address this in the article. My theory is that you can evaluate minor leaguers pretty well using performance analysis, even if your scouting isn’t especially astute. All the players you named had good numbers in the upper minors, except Asdrubal, who had bad numbers but was absurdly advanced, the only 20-year-old in Triple-A that year. It isn’t hard to make that translation based purely on the numbers — I made up a formula for it (Progress Score for hitters) in about five minutes.
My point is that mediocre scouting might not hurt them as much in this area as it does in others.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic, but here is the takeaway quote for this piece:
Here’s what Wedge doesn’t seem to grasp. Those players with the lousy results and great approach are getting the lousy results despite the great approach.
Best rationale for firing Wedge that I’ve heard so far.
And the monoculture issues make it questionable about whether they can ever put together a winner again under Shapiro without some sort of harmonic cosmic convergence as in 2007 Any manager that Shapiro hires will have to work within the constraints of the culture that already exists and will likely have limited power to change that culture.
by woodsmeister on Jun 22, 2009 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You beat me to it. Giving huge amounts of ABs to replacement level grittiness along with the “scouting sucks” and monoculture all resonated.
Stuart Dean
by stuart dean on Jun 22, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, that does describe Wedge accurately. Remember that theory we had here before about how our prospects would be better served learning how to impress Wedge, Shap and Associates with their mannerisms than learning how to better play baseball? We need to explore that further, I think.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about the idea that some players may respond better without coaching period? Maybe Brandon Phillips doesn’t need someone yammering to him about his “approach”? Maybe he just needs AB’s to figure it out on his own, or a few months regularly playing and talking alongside some veteran teammates?
I think that we all have to face the reality that Shapiro’s plan is based upon everyone performing up to their potential, so they focus on approach with the whole team even when it may be to the detriment of individual players.
by randallhank on Jun 22, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good point. I think that’s part of a corporatist mentality. It is hard to know when you should let someone play his own way. Imagine telling Albert Belle how he should approach an at-bat.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wedge: Albert, Keep grinding, you’ll get through this slump
Belle: F you
Wedge: Fair enough
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I agree with this, and again, I tried to explain it a bit in the article. I blame Phillips for failing, but the fear is that The Indians Way is pretty rigid, and when someone doesn’t respond to it, the organization seems utterly un-equipped to communicate with that player. It seems that if you don’t fall into that particular mold, your value eventually will drop to zero.
That ultimately is unacceptable. The organization cannot afford not to be able to work with Phillips — and now, ironically, the man who beat him out, Peralta. They must find ways to deal with “square pegs” better, and if Wedge can’t deal with them effectively, then he really does need to go.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hadn’t seen that theory, but it’s pretty funny.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to look for it, but I have no clue what to search for.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well done. Brings to the forefront what I imagine many of us here have been thinking but were too afraid to say/admit.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 22, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Or, in my case, things I’ve had vague gut feelings about but never sat down and tried to express coherently, like the idea that the Tribe has come to resemble the “Stepford Wives” in some respects.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on Jun 22, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d amend this in one way. We’ve heard Shapiro say numerous times that the idea is to build a team that can stay in the hunt, and then make the adjustments that turn it into a championship-caliber club. What does that really mean? It means you break camp with an 80+ win club, promote the guys who can help, flip the guys who are maxing out their value in their current position, maybe sign an under-the-radar free-agent, that sort of thing. Largely, I think it means you hope to run into some good luck.
The problem with mediocrity, though, is that an average team is that much closer to failure from the get-go. It’s increasingly conceivable to me that the idea of some sort of “consistent contender” status with a $75MM payroll could be a pipe dream. What it leaves you is a team that doesn’t have the depth of talent to cover for its mistakes.
I’m not sure what I’m advocating for. Should the Indians go for broke more often, try to play the boom-bust cycle? Can they afford to, in terms of attendance? What would it look like if they did? I don’t know.
What I do know is that we did not rebuild in 5 years from 2002 as the Plan presaged. This is, in essence, an on-going rebuild, that in 2005 and 2007 lucked into unusually talented teams. Maybe it’s just a matter of cashing in our chips, and levelling up one more time. Maybe it just takes a decade to rebuild a Major League baseball team from scratch.
by fleerdon on Jun 22, 2009 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really have any answers for the struggles of this team. To me, the talent at the start of the season accounting for expected reinforcements from the minors comes off as a .500 team at the worst.
The one thing I do wish that we would be quicker to do is jettison players that are marginal hitters and bring little defensive value. If this means throw rookies into the fire and let them learn on the fly, so be it.
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we rebuilt quite impressively in three years, but we haven’t made the most of that initial success.
I don’t know what “more going for broke” would even look like. Can you express that in terms of hypothetical moves? What should they have done differently, for example, following 2007?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blake? Belliard? Gutierrez (sooner)? I can’t even say if that’s what I’m advocating for; so I guess the answer to your question is, no, I can’t.
The larger idea is just that, okay, 2005 went well, but it’s almost as though the front office mistook a good pit stop for winning the race. Mostly I wonder whether remaining sellers through the mid-aughts would have built us a broader base of organizational talent in the long run.
by fleerdon on Jun 22, 2009 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think one could say that Shapiro put together a contender and then failed to fine-tune it year-to-year.
by Voltaire on Jun 22, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The thing that confuses me is that shouldn’t fine tuning be easier for a mid-market than assembling an initial contender?
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By “fine tuning,” do we mean adding that extra piece or two that gets us over the hump? For a team without a lot of money I think that could be tricky because that’s really what the free agent market is for, and free agency is obviously the bane of a mid-market team.
Of course it’s not like rebuilding an organization is a cakewalk. I don’t know, it’s early.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jun 23, 2009 5:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No. Success is confusing. I’m not kidding.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d add to Jay’s list of non-performance things that do not help win a single game yet could’ve (and probably has) helped lose many is the (to me) bizarre public betrothal of Wedge and Shap.
I’ve never understood it, and always hated when it manifests in Shap making coded references to differences he may have with Wedge, differences which may be less coded and communicated more immediately and forcefully if not for the fact that they were self-branded “co-partners” and “joined at the hip”.
The manager can never be given that much power. Maybe if you’re Bobby Cox and have earned it over umpteen straight playoff appearances you acquire something like that, but you are never simply given it as a rookie manager.
I consider that to be a huge tactical mistake by Shap, one that should be ended soon and never repeated. Well, maybe after the umpteenth time to the playoffs…
by mcrose on Jun 22, 2009 10:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it reflected naivite in Shapiro. As smart and as obviously capable as he is, sometimes his enthusiasm outstripped reality. He hired Eric Wedge, and declared his loyalty right away hoping thereby to help in building a “winning culture”. He would have been better advised to hire Wedge, and waited until after the culture was developed and delivering results consistently before speaking so positively. I bet he’s learned that lesson now for the future, even if he has trouble admitting it.
by MTF on Jun 22, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re right. But I also think its affecting into the current situation. Despite the “leave baseball to the baseball guys” approach that the Dolans are lauded for, they may be forced, eventually, to make a move that Shap is loath to make himself, even if he senses its necessity.
I also think the point about culture and naivete is spot on and reflects some of the things Jay was trying to express. Shap definitely is idealistic, and took the opportunity when given the reins to actually try to actualize his “ideal”, like a Platonic thing where there is an ideal team out there of which “real” baseball teams are but shadows of, and by god, he was going to get as close as he could in the “pursuit of excellence”.
Trouble is, the ideal is really just an idea, period. A model, a projection, which is no substitute for the messy realities of the actual. I’m all for having ideals, but making decisions based on the idea rather than the actual is, pardon the non-Platonic mixing of metaphors, doing things ass-first.
That said, I’ve always thought Shap was quicker to change his mind than Wedge and had a better response to “actual” events. Wedge has almost always been the last to admit it when something isn’t working out.
by mcrose on Jun 22, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with MTF that naivete is part of the problem. Shapiro is the top man in baseball ops, and as much as he wants to empower everyone, when you bear ultimate responsibility, you can’t abdicate all the decision-making to your lieutenants. One-game playing-time decisions eventually add up to long term strategic moves that frankly are too important to be left in the hands of the manager. I don’t fault Shapiro for making the wrong call on BP so much as for letting it be Wedge’s decision to make. Wedge isn’t qualified to make that call; it’s above his pay grade.
Shapiro has expressed great faith in Wedge’s leadership abilities and obviously has entrusted him with gameday decisions. After six years, there really is no evidence that he has the slightest idea who should be getting playing time — a criticism I long hesitated to presume to make. There’s also no evidence that his leadership has helped the team win games — unless you want to argue that the club is not even a .400 team without him. If Shapiro really believes that, then he should be falling on his own sword.
Bottom line, however, is that there’s no credible argument left that says Wedge has been a net positive as the manager.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I just can’t get passed this- and it seems like its a more blunt version of your thoughts in the original post:
This team is bad to the point where we cannot blame only luck and and uncontrolled variables. Therefore either the GM/front office is failing at acquiring talent, or the manager/coaching staff is failing at maximizing that talent.
And no matter how much I try to see it any differently, I think the problem is the on the managing/coaching side. Sure, there have been times this year where I have sympathized with Wedge. I mean, he had his choice of three guys named Aquino, Herges and Vizciano to bring into tough spots. The greatest manager ever wouldn’t have been able to get enough outs from these guys to win some of the games over the last month. But the problem, as you pointed out is deeper than tragic blown saves and simultaneous injuries. And ultimately, that problem is Eric Wedge.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jun 22, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To add- I would think Shapiro has the absolute authority to fire Wedge. Assuming that is true, we have something of a new challenge for Shapiro. Can he fire Wedge. I always have said that the “attached at the hip” argument was overblown and that Shapiro would sooner fire Wedge than loose his own job, or reputation even. But, the ability to deal with a failing manager situation is something that Shapiro hasn’t dealt with yet.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jun 22, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, Shapiro has the authority to fire Wedge; the question is what happens if the Dolans push him to fire Wedge.
by palcal on Jun 22, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
I think to the extent Shapiro is concerned with his reputation, he feels that sticking by his guy enhances it.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No press conference has been scheduled… I have a feeling we will be dealing with a lame duck manager the rest of the year
by NCTRIB on Jun 22, 2009 11:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course you are. You either keep Wedge through the end of the season, or you fire him today and get someone like Skinner through the end of the season. What you don’t do is fire Wedge today and hire a permanent replacement in mid-season, unless the plan is to hand the job to someone in the organization.
by FredOx on Jun 22, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem with Skinner taking the reins, on an interim basis or permanently. He’s got a lot going for him.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t forget the All-Star break.
In addition to the actual performance on the field, they have to be concerned about players like Lee and Martinez wanting out.
by palcal on Jun 22, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not concerned about players wanting out.
I am concerned about players not wanting to stay in. The Indians’ sterling reputation in the industry surely is taking a beating. It’s one thing to have a 2006 down-year, erased by great success in 2007. It’s one thing to be ravaged by injuries to a half-dozen key players in 2008, which everyone can understand.
But this? This is just three mediocre years out of four. The Indians still will be considered a great bunch of people, but I have imagine that their reputation as a gold-standard organization has been seriously damaged by this.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really thoughtful piece, Jay, and I’m glad the conversation has started. THe Tribe has presumably begun a similar process. Mark Shapiro introduced a great many good ideas to the Tribe management process, but it’s true that every virtue, carried too far, becomes an obstacle. Seeking the “right kind of player” is fine, until the versatility one seeks delivers mediocrity at critical positions and phases of the game. Devotion to your coaching staff through thick and thin is admirable and positive in promoting a culture of stability, but we haven’t seen the results Bobby Cox or Tony LaRussa have managed to achieve. Accountability is just as critical as loyalty, and applies equally to the players and management. The harsh fact is that in an organization like ours, the pitchers, position players and coaching all has to come together simultaneously in order to win championships.
by MTF on Jun 22, 2009 11:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It leads to another question though: If Shapiro’s at fault, does that necessarily mean he’s the wrong person to fix his mistakes? He might be the ideal candidate. ShapBot could be a learning computer.
by fleerdon on Jun 22, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone has to confront their limitations. Shapiro is young, smart and backed by employers who want to succeed. I myself want the Tribe and Shap to succeed so much that I have to step back and realize that Mark’s results so far just haven’t lived up to my hopes (as Jay pointed out in quoting Churchill). I’m watching Shapiro carefully, and hoping he can figure this situation out. But I’m ready to concede he might not get there.
by MTF on Jun 22, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Looks like I should have read this before making my comment below.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right, the ability to critique and adjust your own approach should be an important component to a successful front office. Otherwise, its a serious weakness.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jun 22, 2009 7:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there is an element of hubris to Shapiro. It seems he believes some of his press: that he’s a genius, has figured out a way to exploit market inefficiencies. But he has demonstrated a capacity for growth and adjustment. Maybe this serves as a humbling experience.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The press writes that Shapiro has figured out a way to exploit market inefficiencies?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 8:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re misappropriating Beane’s press for Shapiro’s. And I don’t think any GM gets too big of a head over what BP has to say. BP doesn’t really love the Indians that much anyway.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right. Point still stands. Shapiro, it seems, has gotten something of a big head. Also, if I were to re-read the PD Plan series, I think there’s something in there about how small-market franchises have to be smarter than large-market teams.
by odradek on Jun 23, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There may be something to the reports that that White Sox management can’t stand the smugness of the Indians management. Shapiro has gotten all the accolades, while Williams generally has had more success, so you could see how that would rub them the wrong way. Still, in general, their reputation for being a bunch of class acts is pretty strong, which suggests that most folks don’t think they’re smug.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I haven’t read those reports. I’m very interested to hear of that.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the 83-win Cardinals don’t face a defensively inept Tigers team in the World Series, I doubt you’re holding up LaRussa as the paragon of managerial virtue. A team with Albert Pujols that wins 83, 78 and 86 games, finishing 3rd and 4th in the NL Central the past 2 seasons? The fine folks at cleveland.com would be calling for LaRussa’s head.
That’s not necessarily a defense of Wedge, by the way. I’ve gradually come around to simultaneously believing that (1) Eric Wedge hasn’t done anything to show he should keep his job and (2) a different manager wouldn’t have been any better this year or last.
by FredOx on Jun 22, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I stll don’t buy that we know this for sure about a different coach succeeding. It’s just not something that will be easily quantified
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn’t intending to hold up LaRussa as a paragon of managerial virtue. Just as the beneficiary of an organizational philosophy of promoting stability over time.
by MTF on Jun 22, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The season may suck, Jay, but you and LGT are gems. The book I’m currently writing has a perfect spot for your Winston Churchill quote. Thank you so much. Even so, I’d rather we were in the race and I was still searching for the thing to say …
by rden on Jun 22, 2009 11:33 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Churchill endured his share of failure in his long career.
by jhon on Jun 22, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe history will prove Shapiro to be a man ahead of his time with regard to running a mid sized market team. He has shown an ability to acquire minor league talent to offset the poor luck we’ve had in the crapshoot areas of drafting. His performance in acquiring third tier free agents has been spotty, but that is to be expected as this is a high risk activity.
A lot of Shaprio’s problems are connected to the inability to retain proven talent.
I won’t say he is without his blind spots, but I would take him over any other GM in the game.
Eric Wedge needs to be evaluated separately. Is there something he’s doing so that he isn’t usng his bullpen as efficiently as other managers? Are his lineups indicative that he understands which players should play at which positions to optimize both their offensive and defensive potential? Does he exhibit a bias toward veterans who can deliver a win today over the grooming of less experienced talent? Has he simply been around too long and the players have grown tired of his voice and approach?
I think by these questions, you see how I feel about Wedge. He is a traditional thinker who lacks an ability to think creatively and probably doesn’t have the baseball sense that many other managers possess. And the pity is that he is wasting Shapiro’s good work.
If the point about managers don’t win games players do, makes any sense, why have managers?
by elsandito on Jun 22, 2009 11:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s not fair to blame the bullpen failures on Wedge.
by jakesinger777 on Jun 22, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the bullpen is both their faults. Usage goes on Wedge, but staffing and sometime reluctance to change horses is on Shapiro. This year, though, Shapiro has gone through pen personnel rapidly in search of workable pieces and Wedge hasn’t managed to succeed with any of them.
by MTF on Jun 22, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wedge hasn’t managed to succeed with any of them
To me, that is just stupid. Just because Shapiro has gone through personnel rapidly, as you say “In search of workable pieces”, doesn’t mean that it is on Wedge or within his capabilities to make them so. At a certain point, we’re just hating on the man irrationally.
by jakesinger777 on Jun 22, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You should too give him some responsibility for the failure of the pen, unless you think the manager has no impact on team performance. How could you not hold him even a little responsible for some part of the problem? I think the manager has an impact on team performance and I’m always ready to give managers some part of the credit when teams win championships, so I do think he’s got some responsibility for the long term poor performance of the pen. You would too if you were being honest.
by MTF on Jun 22, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Certainly this year his handling of the bullpen pieces has been questionable. Wood has been underworked, Lewis seems to bounce from high-leverage to no-leverage roles without passing through the middle ground of the 6th, he continue to force Smith against lefties, he has a slow trigger when a reliever has obviously lost all feel (see Perez after the Fielder grand slam), he keeps bringing in Herges in the middle of innings when it’s clear that’s not part of his comfort zone. And those are the guys that have succeeded enough to keep their roster spots.
Yeah, everybody’s been a gas can, but he hasn’t handled any reliever adeptly this year. Not one. That’s giving him a free pass for not using Wood in four-out situations, which I’m assuming comes from above.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I never came around to broad point, which is, a manager can impact the game tactically by properly managing his pitching staff. The bullpen is bad, period, but he has aggravated the situation with his in-game moves.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All too true. The guy’s a fool.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I agree, but who was the last manager about whom you said “that guy really knows how to use his relievers.” Wedge has been questionable at best, but my probably-faulty recollection was that Hargrove was a lot worse.
by FredOx on Jun 22, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bob Melvin gained that reputation, rightly or wrongly. LaRussa is a favorite punching bag of the sabermetric set, but he and Dave Duncan always seem to do well with mediocre arms.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eric Wedge in 2007?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even then, I don’t think so. He over-relied on his COT, made little effort to break in an arm in low-leverage situations, managed his pen by rote, and eventually burned out the Raffies (as I remember).
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Raffies didn’t really burn out at all unless you count only Game 7 of the ALCS as a burnout.
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the argument is that the Raffies’ performance in 2008 is attributable to the way they were used in 2007. it’s certainly an argument I have heard before.
by FredOx on Jun 22, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, I want it both ways. Certainly 2008 and postseason 2007. I recollect, but haven’t looked it up, that they slipped a bit in September 2007 as well.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, Kerry Wood had zero 4 or 5 out saves in 2008. He did pitch 2 innings though 5 times.. all of them in extra inning games.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah, the National League. I’m so glad I don’t have to watch a league that forces you to slash-and-burn your roster.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He lost 2 of those games right? Not exactly a great sign.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No I know, just sort of adding something to think about with it with the whole “using Kerry longer” discussion.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t once say that the manager has no responsibility for the performance of the team. Read my post. What I said was that it is unfair and clearly biased to give some level of credit to Shapiro for moving around the pieces in the bullpen “in search of workable pieces” and solely blame Wedge for their underperformance. The fact that Shapiro has been shuffling so thoroughly indicates that the likelihood of finding a successful solution is/was pretty low.
These are things that can be argued successfully from multiple perspectives. Did the pitchers’ failure force Wedge to act desperate, meddling with their roles to the point at which it appeared irresponsible? Did Wedge’s inconsistency cause the lack of performance (I highly doubt it)? Was it a combination of both? Point is, you’ve gotta give the man something to work with before you can critique his outcome.
by jakesinger777 on Jun 22, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Replying to all of the above … ultimately I think the bullpen problems lay at Shapiro’s feet. I often have disagreed with Wedge’s moves, but only when the bullpen is utterly terrible. We had a pretty thin bullpen in 2007, and I think it’s fair to say he deployed our relievers to masterful effect that year, so much so that it’s often mis-remembered as a good bullpen. He obviously had the midas touch in 2005.
My point, I guess, is that while we can pick at individual bullpen moves, ultimately it’s not a difference maker. When Wedge has had some modicum of bullpen talent to work with, he’s done a pretty good job maximizing the use of those assets.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I completely agree about 2007, but it’s beginning to get overwhelmed by the weight of evidence. I’ve never seen more moves I out-and-out disagreed with (that is, more than “well, I think I would have left betancourt in here”) than I ever have. Which isn’t a fantastic way to measure something, but it’s all I’ve got. That and the actual performance results, which unfortunately lack a control set.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 7:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the point about managers don’t win games players do, makes any sense, why have managers?
by SuddenSam on Jun 22, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The team has a traveling secretary and an equipment manager too. They don’t win any games, but are needed.
by dgcambridge on Jun 22, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shapiro is a man ahead of his time, but his model—designed apparently to smooth out the boom and bust years by deliberately eliminating extremes—hasn’t been as successful as he must have hoped. At some point,the poor crapshooting must be questioned as an excuse. Being unlucky doesn’t work when you rarely if ever get lucky.
The character issue is a good one. Beane doesn’t have a problem signing Milton or Giambi. And, as Jay points out so eloquently, Beane doesn’t care what Ken Macha (or any other manager) thinks. The Cleveland Indians monoculture—corporatist, ultra-rational, evenhanded—certainly hasn’t helped, either.
Wedge doesn’t appear to use his bullpen efficiently. He doesn’t work his pitchers, apparently, to keep them sharp. Some pitchers can sit for weeks in the pen, He clearly has demonstrated he isn’t concerned with where and when certain players should play. And of course he has demonstrated a bias toward veterans. And it also seems some of his players have grown tired of his act.
Excellent piece, Jay. A reasoned exegesis of why the Indians suck.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Being unlucky doesn’t work when you rarely if ever get lucky.
Great line.
by JulioBernazard on Jun 22, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why does Shapiro have to be “a man ahead of his time”? Why can’t he just be another GM who brought his own ideas to the job, some of which worked well and some of which failed miserably?
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 22, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because the trend is in his direction.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At the very least I would think that Dolan would come out today and explain his comment or lack of comment about Wedge as the manager? I also dont blame wedge; just think a new voice will provide energy to a club that has a lot of talent especially as compared to the rest of the central
by NCTRIB on Jun 22, 2009 11:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we’ll see some remarks pre-game tomorrow.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castro’s explanation (spin) was that Dolan thought Hoynes was talking about trades.
by NickFantana on Jun 22, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a hoot. Dolan knew what Hoynes was saying, and he spoke intemperately.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think he really was confused. Hoynes’ question was about “making changes,” which at first blush sounds more like trades than making one big change.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff Jay, I’m a little surprised by some of your comments.
"They know the stats, we know the stats, so when they make a move, it looks right to us. Problem is, we tend to forget that the numbers rarely tell us the full story."
We need a better mix of Stat people and old school eyes, you need both to build a good system.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jun 22, 2009 12:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
we’ve got old school eyes. Problem is, they might be blind.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The people who really understand the stats understand how limited they are. Everyone else is just playing checkers.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
King me.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 7:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thing is, Shapiro will evaluate the failure of this season (and the past ones, sigh) which makes him as good a bet to bring new ideas to the table as a completely new GM would be.
Besides, do we really want to fire him and hire Antonetti? I don’t think that would change things all that much, and why would we let Shapiro and Antonetti both leave? The rest of the majors would go crazy to land one of them.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 12:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
With the caveat that if he can find it within himself to reform and make some significant changes to The Plan, then he (and Antonetti, if he shares that perspective) can go wherever he wants.
They have to change, it has to start with firing the manager.
by NickFantana on Jun 22, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey, I was wondering this as I was writing last night … fans often call it The Plan, but have the Indians actually ever called it that?
Hart and O’Dowd called their plan a “Blueprint for Success,” and it was already in place when Shapiro was hired. Shapiro has added his own innovations, but I’m not sure the basic plan really has changed much from that Blueprint. Shapiro’s main contribution may be a badly written mission statement.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think “The Plan” comes from a Plain Dealer series of articles back in 02-03 or so that discussed Shapiro and the like. I used to have the link saved, but I can’t find it now.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jun 22, 2009 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather withhold judgment, until we see what the Tribe says and does to learn from the past couple of seasons and improve. Antonetti might just have a greater capacity to learn and adapt, while still using the tools developed under Shapiro’s management. I’m not advocating this change, just saying that I’m open to possibilities. I’m interested in hearing what Paul Dolan thinks about this issue.
by MTF on Jun 22, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Shapiro’s long-term plan is be to a GM?
It sounded like he was positioning himself to be a team president.
by palcal on Jun 22, 2009 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Dolan’s son in the position? Doubtful.
More likely, if he’s going to stay within baseball, would be an executive position with MLB.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dolan’s son will be chairman sooner or later.
If Shapiro parts ways with the Indians, he could go to another team
as president.
by palcal on Jun 22, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know some people “in the know” who swear that Shapiro’s next job will not be in baseball.
by randallhank on Jun 22, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
any guess as to where he may venture
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he can go to England to run a soccer team
by palcal on Jun 22, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That seems really doubtful given the complete lack of any advanced statistic in football.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 22, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Politics, maybe. I know he’s passionate about it. Unfortunately we wouldn’t be allowed to talk about him anymore.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jun 22, 2009 7:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Pioli has a job for him.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he does go into politics, I hope its after he’s brought a championship to Cleveland. He’d certainly be a better politician for it, on many levels.
by mcrose on Jun 22, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or else you get comments like “Mark Shapiro traded away Sammy SOSA! OMG”
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Mark Shapiro: Wrong on Phillips. Wrong for America.”
by Voltaire on Jun 23, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Do you want the man who drafted Jeremy Sowers #4 overall leading your state?”
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 23, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
#6
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My “source” (and I’m using this term loosely) didn’t rule this out, although it wasn’t mentioned specifically. My previous comment meant to suggest that his next job wouldn’t be in sports, not merely that it wouldn’t be in baseball. I would say politics and finance would be the two most obvious possibilities.
by randallhank on Jun 23, 2009 2:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And to elaborate, I didn’t mean to suggest he would run for political office.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jun 23, 2009 5:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think so – Shapiro’s strength is in organization and evaluating the work of others – not in directly analyzing it
by APV on Jun 23, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would be reckless to get rid of Shapiro now. Get rid of Wedge and see if that shows any improvement. I think an “outisde” manager who might disagree with Shapiro would be the prudent course.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, but it’s a gut thing more than anything else. I think Shapiro is still pretty young in this job, and he can learn and improve. Maybe Wedge can learn, too, but the bitter pill facing the whole front office is that Wedge’s leadership hasn’t gotten any results.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent analysis. A superb starting point to a month(s) long discussion.
I remain unconvinced that the “character” limitation is as prevelant as described. Our evidence is Bradley and Phillips. Phillips was as much a performance issue as character. Bradley was a full-on character transaction, but he’s pretty extreme (just glance at his production numbers and the list of teams for which he’s played). We took on Chisenhall and Pavano, both were easily avoidable players.
We’re relying on the front office’s public relation speak. Is it really that different than other teams? Do other organizations say “We don’t factor in character at all.” I don’t think so. (Well, maybe in those few cities that are pure evil anyway) Instead, they all say that character matters, and when they take on a trouble-maker they say “We sat down with him and did our homework; we think he’ll be a great teammate.”
I mean, what percentage of players do you think Shap is crossing off his list? 1%? 10%? 50%?
Of course, any discussion of this must admit that we don’t really know how important this really is. I’m not going to be able to prove my point with Chisenhall and Pavano. Maybe they’re the outliers, and Bradley/Phillips are not. We’d actually have to listen in on the FO here.
by dgcambridge on Jun 22, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Chiz, obviously, has yet to play for the big league club. It’s also possible that PAvano is not near the douche that the Yankees thought he was, but may in fact be a really good dude. I think the question of behavior goes beyond just the jackasses like Phillips and Bradley. It’s a very complex issue to debate, and probably not something that we will ever be able to definitively define on this website
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, you’re pretty much guaranteed to be a good guy if the Yankees think you’re a douche, right? You’re obviously doing something right…
by Logodaedalus on Jun 22, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
-This man will be invaluable to me, Major
-Invaluable, sir?
-I almost hanged him as a renegade. Now he asks to be a scout. Oh, his game is very obvious: to lead me away from his Indian friends.
-Well, I still don’t quite follow you, General.
-Anything that man tells me will be a lie. Therefore, he will be a perfect reverse barometer. Isn’t that correct?
-Of course, General.
by fleerdon on Jun 22, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Character isn’t a credit report, though — it isn’t some running tally of everything you’ve ever done wrong irrespective of what you did later. For all we know, the Indians view the way Lonnie handled his conviction and sentence and the year after and came away thinking he was more mature and driven by the experience. In that sense, he might not be an exception in the least.
by fleerdon on Jun 22, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yea, that is what I am trying to get at. Character goes well beyond just getting rid of malcontents
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I couldn’t agree more. It could be that Chisenhall really is a super-duper guy who made one bad mistake, and Pavano was wrongly accused.
I just feel like the evidence on the other side of the coin (getting rid of malcontents and refusing to sign a slew of guys based on issues aside of their arm/glove/bat) isn’t much stronger. All we know for sure is that Bradley was dumped because of his attitude and despite his performance. I think it’s all speculation to project out from that wacko to a widespread, unusual and very limiting philosophy.
by dgcambridge on Jun 22, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously, we don’t know. Somebody who’s a loudmouth or a pain in the ass in the locker room. Somebody like Jose Cardenal who has a few peculiarities. Chisenhall isn’t really an example, because we are told he has repented and is now on the path of righteousness.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the level-headed, thoughtful analysis, Jay. You have a knack for posting these right around the time I’m ready to throw a chair through a window. Now I’m no longer angry, just depressed.
So suppose Shapiro and his brain trust lock themselves in a room for the next couple of weeks, make a few trades to contenders, pick up a few more prospects to restock the minor league system, and come up with a renewed five year plan. How many chances at a five year plan does he get?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 1:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The assumption here is that we had a five-year plan to begin with. They said they did, but they may have been lying; even if they were, things change.
by fleerdon on Jun 22, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t need a five-year plan. This isn’t the Cam Bonifay-era Pirates. In five years Victor and his cohort will be gone.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They have enough young or in-their-prime talent in place that they don’t need a five year plan. They just need to fix what they’re consistently doing wrong.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really? I’m not so convinced anymore. Teams with bigger payroll ceilings could afford to take the young talent and make a gamble with a couple of free agents to take us over the top. If we’re going to continue to pursue small market management techniques, however, which I assume we have to, then what makes us think there’s a simple fix for this team? As we say in my business, if everyone knew how to improve our graduates’ bar pass rate or increase our school’s rankings, then everyone at our level would be doing it. Not so simple.
It seems like we’re at a turning point where the club has to assess whether we’re close or whether we need to shake things up in a major way, where no one is off limits for a trade possibility. We have a lot of young talent, but a bunch of those players are a few years away from their prime contribution years (assuming they actually pan out).
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I come back to the internets to find that the suck has not stopped with Cleveland. Ugh. I will no doubt be linking back here many times in the future. But the first point I wanted to bring up is that Cleveland claims it isn’t all about the numbers. And much of the praise they receive is because they supposedly have found the middle path of including scouting and qualitative assessments into a risk and projection-based standard system. This is a point I brought up at some point in the past – but I wonder if the problem isn’t that the Tribe is all about the numbers, per se…but that they have chosen to work within a framework which requires them to quantify everything – even if the data isn’t inherently quantitative. What I wonder if this approach is both limiting on their decision making flexibility and potentially obscuring a lot of information, particularly on the more qualitative end of the spectrum.
by APV on Jun 22, 2009 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not that I’m necessarily disagreeing, but don’t we see scouting reports quantified already with the 20-80 scale? I agree that the data isn’t inherently quantitative, but there’s a pretty simplistic model that has been widely used, by both relatively smart and dumb organizations, for quite a while now.
by 7foot3 on Jun 22, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think they are quantifying decisions.
Scouts have been using 20-80 for years.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but i assume scouting reports are more than (40, 50, 25, 60), no?
by APV on Jun 22, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fastball: 55
Curve: 50
Changeup: 51
Notes: Looks better with high socks and crooked cap. Very white teeth.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s what my scouting report would look like.. because I would have no idea what I’m doing.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I often get stuck thinking of Frisco and Garko and Jensen Lewis as the problem, and maybe they are. They’ve certainly done their part. But that kind of mediocrity was more of the problem with the pre-2007 years.
For 2008 and 2009, the biggest issue is the many solid-to-great players who have not been mediocre, but some combination of HORRIBLE
and/or significantly injured.
I was considering this when reading the driveline mechanics guy’s I-told-you-so post on Kerry Wood. That post was strange, because it seemed like one market analyst saying to another “Remember when I told you back in 2007 that the 2009 Dow Jones would be 12,000. And you said it would be 13,000. Ha! Looks like I win, idiot!!” I mean, I guess, 12,000 was the better prediction, but it kind of misses the point.
Here’s the list of fairly vaulable guys that have put up an off-the-radar horribly awful and/or significantly injured 2008 or 2009: Sizemore, Hafner, Martinez, Peralta. (Ask yourself whether Marte, Shoppach, Frisco and Gutz belong on that list also.) On the pitching side: Carmona (twice), Perez, Wood, Betancourt, Koba, and a number of smaller inning relievers.
Those guys are the core of our team, and I would submit that any other team would have wanted those guys, strongly. Any computer, any scout, any fan base, any GM, any school – new or old, would be after those guys.
It would be one thing if the Indians were simply overagressive in their projections on these guys, but it wasn’t that simple. Each of these guys collapsed in 2008 or 2009. These kind of collapse aren’t unique to the Tribe (look at two of our other targets: Rafeal Furcal and Juan Cruz). But I think we’ve had more than our share, and it’s up to the Front Office to figure out what they should have done different.
And yeah, I’ll throw it out there: the answer may be nothing.
by dgcambridge on Jun 22, 2009 1:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would submit that any other team would have wanted those guys, strongly. Any computer, any scout, any fan base, any GM, any school – new or old, would be after those guys.
I’m not super convinced of this. I mean, how can you know?
by NickFantana on Jun 22, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can look at the fact that the Indians have been consistent pre-season picks to win the division. That tells you something.
by jakesinger777 on Jun 22, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s a matter of reading/hearing the national opinions of our team, but old-school and new. Maybe everyone has been lying, maybe everyone really thought that Casey Blake was our best player, but I doubt it.
by dgcambridge on Jun 22, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are over 25 teams that would have taken Kerry at 4M per year. (I know we gave him 10)
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure what I did with the formatting there. Preview is our friend. The point of the messed up sentence is to say that it has been the collapses into horrible performance (and/or injury) that has been the problem.
by dgcambridge on Jun 22, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like how it turned out…. the “HORRIBLE” really grabs the attention. Seems fitting.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 22, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I assumed it was intentional. Not to mention
ACCURATE
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All I know is that it’s to the point where I don’t really even enjoy watching this team or talking about them or thinking about them anymore. Every game we take a lead I start wondering how exactly we’re going to blow it & they still manage to surprise me sometimes anyway.
*sigh*
by zempf on Jun 22, 2009 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, even my grandpa said this to me yesterday.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First, I want to thank Sam for keeping Jay up at night.
I feel like a caged lion at a zoo who has just been thrown a whole dead elephant to eat quickly before it spoils.
HIRE JAY.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on Jun 22, 2009 2:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure that hiring Jay wouldn’t help with Theory #1.
by FredOx on Jun 22, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jay strikes me as someone who understands and respects the limits of numbers. Bloggers often get overly reverential about numbers (usually because that’s all we have available). I suspect a lot of major league organizations are still in the “overly impressed with numbers” stage. They could use a Jay.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on Jun 22, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The latest from Castro.
The “Eric Wedge on the hot seat” chatter has reached new levels with the Tribe possessing the worst record in the AL and in the midst of a six-game losing streak. It appears slightly overplayed, as the Indians are not believed to be on the verge of making such a move at the moment. A decision on Wedge’s future is more likely to be made at season’s end.
Apparently there was some confusion over the weekend when a reporter asked owner Larry Dolan about a potential change and Dolan responded, “I’ll talk to you later” and “I just don’t want to lie to you.” Dolan, from what I understand, was under the impression that the topic at hand was possible trades, not Wedge’s job security.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 22, 2009 4:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes!
This really sums up the thoughts I’ve been having this year after years of defending this group, particularly the front office. I was surprised to hear that before Woolner there was no full time data analyst. Ouch!
Thank you for writing this, and raising the level of discourse.
by snaidni on Jun 22, 2009 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me for condescending if you’ve been a lurker, but raising the level of discourse is on Jay Levin’s business card.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic read. Thanks for this, Jay.
--
Force quit and move to trash.
by vbc3 on Jun 22, 2009 5:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
i don’t think this is very good, jay. and i won’t thank you for it either.
by Brick. on Jun 22, 2009 5:05 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
… and brick for the win
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you. It’s rambling and sloppy, and there’s no evidence to back up any of the assertions.
But, I mean, what the hell, it was three in the morning.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if anyone knows rambling and sloppy, it’s Brick. At least when it comes to typing.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t catch any obvious spelling errors, so score one for Jay.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 22, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is good stuff, Jay. I’m actually gonna refrain from heavily commenting/questioning/debating this and just let it sink in for a few days.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 5:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But then...
There are a couple things I have to disagree with. I do not support the Indians draft strategy. There was a time when it made sense to build the depth of the organization with “sure things”—moderately talented, already-developed college players who are smart with good attitudes. But once you acquire 50 players like this, who are good enough to make a major league roster but not good to hold down a regular position for several years or be considered for the all star game, it seems like that should be enough.
The Indians could stock every team in the division with 4th outfielders and utility infielders and back-up catchers and 5th starters. With that depth in place, their failure not to begin drafting younger players with higher ceilings is just not defensible.
And I know that Keith Woolner is smart enough to know that when you move players around the diamond only three things suffer: 1) offense 2) defense 3) player health. I wonder if the front office wasn’t willing to exert power over the manager. Eric Wedge is a good guy, but he’s gone insane in his quest to develop the most flexible roster in major league history out of a group of players who aren’t really very athletic.
by snaidni on Jun 22, 2009 5:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You don’t think Wedge is largely operating on the front office philosophy?
by palcal on Jun 22, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Wedge at fault for moving his defense around too much? Some of it was exigency: he has to play Francisco in center because Grady is out. He tried to keep the infield stable. I don’t think he’s moving parts around for the hell of it. He seems to prefer a stable lineup. Actually he seems to prefer an automat lineup, every day the same as before. His insanity this year has come, I think, from trying to find comfortable places for his players. Just as when he put Jhonny into the four spot, Jhonny clicked. (As if he did so because of his batting position.)
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 7:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think he’s moving parts around for the hell of it.
Garko in the outfield, Valbuena at shortstop and DeRosa playing first.
by NickFantana on Jun 22, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I feel like Valbuena doesn’t count there. I feel that Wedge is thinking about life without Jhonny or at least life without Jhonny as SS. If that’s true, then Valbuena at SS during a losing season while Asdrubal is down is a good way to see if he can fill in there if needed in the future.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 10:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If true, that would be the only example I can think of where Wedge has prioritized the long-term interests of the team over his short-term lineup flexibility championship run. Besides which, if you’re talking long-term interests of the team, Valbuena is the starting second baseman and will therefore not be available to play shortstop.
by NickFantana on Jun 22, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was sending Jhonny a message: this team can get along without you, gordo.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Jhonny has spent most of the season refuting that. A Jhonny playing like he normally does would be a boon to this team right now. Good Jhonny is a far better option than Valbuena. Again, he’s quite possibly the best or second best hitting shortstop in franchise history.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 22, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. I’d say Wedge’s failure to connect with Jhonny is another nail in his coffin.
by odradek on Jun 23, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess, but I wonder what a manager designed by LGT Committee would really look like. A better motivator than Wedge, but less intense. Less intense, but more emotive. Someone who will get Grady to stop pulling the ball so much, get Shoppach to strike out less, but leave Jhonny alone to be whatever it is that Jhonny is.
by FredOx on Jun 23, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In my case, I don’t really care. It would just be someone who has demonstrated less that he can’t be effective within this organization.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The way he treated Jhonny last year was actually more puzzling to me than this year’s treatment. Jhonny would have one bad play amidst a hot streak and would see the bench the next game, and also get called out in the process
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I recall that when he pitched for Cleveland and they’d interview him, he impressed me. I liked the way he contstructed his thoughts and he made sense in the things he said. He never seemed to get too far up or down with regard to any situation. He seemed knowedgeable toward the game in general and appeared to be personable, yet all business. It’s one of those things where I had a feeling.
by elsandito on Jun 23, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Orel unfortunately has a reputation for having an extremely high opinion of himself. With minimal coaching experience, he has lobbied for manager openings and even tried to get himself hired as the Dodgers GM.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make a good case for using him to replace Manning. We probably shouldn’t use the same reasoning for replacing Wedge.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 23, 2009 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As a former pitcher, listening to Orel call games and discuss pitching is a privilege
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I really like him. He seems very humble and very knowledgeable, something that has to be hard to do.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 24, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ask anyone who’s worked with him, or shared the clubhouse with him, if he seems humble. But I do like him as a broadcaster.
Since when is Roger Dorn a former pitcher?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 24, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My alter ego was a marginal high school pitcher
by Roger Dorn on Jun 24, 2009 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting read.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Valbuena is the starting second baseman and will therefore not be available to play shortstop.
Not true. When Jhonny was starting SS and Asdrubal starting 2B, it was Asdrubal who spelled Jhonny when he sat. Same could be done with Valbuena. you just stagger their days off appopriately.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Valubuena at shortstop was to remind Jhonny of his mortality.
Garko in the outfield is just plain bizarre.
DeRosa playing first. Well, he’s a utility player. Early in the season Wedge had him playing every day at third. Same with Blake last year. He rarely took advantage of Blake’s versatility (how often did he play the outfield?).
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After the Boone Experiment ended? Very rarely.
by Ryan on Jun 22, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet Blake was a better rightfielder than third baseman. And he was a superutility player who primarily played third base.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vastly better in right field, in fact, but evidently happier at third base.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not support the Indians draft strategy. There was a time when it made sense to build the depth of the organization with "sure things"—moderately talented, already-developed college players who are smart with good attitudes. But once you acquire 50 players like this, who are good enough to make a major league roster but not good to hold down a regular position for several years or be considered for the all star game
I’ve been kicking around for a day how to respond to this, but I have to just be candid. One major purpose of writing this article was an attempt to move the conversation forward. Most popular criticisms of the Indians are, in fact, just stupid, written by people who don’t have the first clue what’s right or wrong with the Indians or any other team. I would hope that we could do better. For most teams, what passes for sophisticated criticism is really just Sabermetrics 101, and most of the “stupid criticism” is stupid precisely for that reason — the criticism itself fails the sabermetric test. The Indians pass the sabermetric test basically ith flying colors.
Sabermetrics is the basic arithmetic of baseball. Scouting is geomoetry, projection is trigonometry, and building a club is calculus. No matter how good your scouting, you can’t build a club effectively if your basic arithmetic is all wrong. At best, you will have a good club that consistently undercuts its own efforts. So let me be clear about where I stand on this: The basics of analytics are never “wrong,” they’re just insufficient. But you can’t get anywhere if you ignore them.
Criticism of the Indians draft approach, in my view, falls into this category. It is a total fallacy, on a par with calling Garko a “run producer.” It is not where we’re moving the conversation to; it’s where we’re moving it from.
Draft strategy criticism is logic-based argument that sounds nice but is based on absolutely no data. Anytime anyone has ever actually plugged in any data, the idea of drafting more “high-ceiling” players falls apart completely. It is built largely on a major misconception as to the realistic yield of any one, individual draft pick.
So, while not wishing to insult anyone, the fact is that this “high-ceiling” talk belongs in the same bin with RBI and batting average. It’s a fun conversation, I guess, for some, but it’s a conversation had by people who don’t understand the basic arithmetic of the draft.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
I agree with you, and have always found such draft talk more NFL than MLB. But if it existed, wouldn’t it simply be part of the “risk averse” portfolio that has the Indians signing the likes of Dellucci and Carroll: little upside, but less chance of disappointment?
by odradek on Jun 23, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Signing Dellucci and Carroll isn’t risk averse, it’s just a reflection of the limited budget.
The Dellucci signing was actually pretty high reward, in that he seemed capable of performing at an All-Star level if he was healthy and not in an age-decline free-fall.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But those “if’s” are massive and the fact that they couldn’t be mitigated put a dent in their payroll for three years.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that is the opposite of risk-averse, which was my point.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks. I didn’t fully make the connection but I see it now.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I agree. Dellucci appeared to have a high upside based on his Texas performance.
by odradek on Jun 23, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
math is not intuitive enough to be used as a metaphor
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 23, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here’s a comment that reflects something I’ve seen a lot of lately, here and elsewhere.
[The Indians’] failure not to begin drafting younger players with higher ceilings is just not defensible.
Okay, I’ve had enough of this. There’s a fallacy in here — that there are scores of hotshot prep players and the Indians have pointedly ignored them just because they might cost a little more.
If you look at almost any so-called “safe” college pick taken in the middle-upper rounds, you’ll very often find that he was drafted low in high school and went to college because he didn’t get enough money to dissuade him from doing so (or, that he was not drafted at all because teams expected him to be in this position). If he had gone to college and completely excelled, he wouldn’t be a “safe” pick, he’d be a no-doubt first-rounder. Next question: Why didn’t he get taken in an earlier round as a high schooler? Because he wasn’t good enough in high school to merit the financial risk. If he had been, again, you’re talking a no-doubt first-rounder.
Exclude from the discussion, then, those first-round talents, and what do you have left? College players with flaws, and high schoolers who have lots of strong incentives not to sign. As between those two, if you take primarily the high schoolers, you’re either going to dramatically overpay an inferior player to convince him to skip college, or you’re going to waste your pick. I think, when Brad Grant says (in literally every interview) that the Indians make a point of using all 50 rounds, this is what he means: Taking guys they can sign, which usually means college players.
I’ll assume you know all that. That means you’re talking about the Indians’ first-round picks. Coupla thoughts there: 1. There are maybe 12 truly exceptional players per draft, in a good year, and they usually go in the first 13-ish rounds. How many top-15 picks have the Indians had? Top-10? Top-5? As bad as we’ve been, we are not freaking Tampa Bay. 2. Besides Sowers and maybe Crowe, which recent Indians’ first-round pick is “low-ceiling”? Huff — projected to be a 3rd or 4th starter? Snyder — projected to be a starting center fielder? Aubrey — projected to be a starting first baseman? Mills — considered to have the most power in that draft? How about Adam “Mr. 100” Miller? Hell, look up Crowe’s Arizona stats; he may have been a questionable first-rounder, but don’t tell me the dude wasn’t an awesome NCAA player. Sure, there were better player in those drafts. By and large, they were taken by teams with higher overall picks.
Plus, I’ve got news for you: Promising high school baseball players can blow up just as easily as any kind. You want to talk about some high-ceiling prep players? How about Corey Smith? How about Dan Denham? Good lord, people. Didn’t we learn our lesson? It wasn’t time for the Indians to “begin” drafting prep players in the first round. It was time for them to stop.
While I’m at it: Assume everything I’ve written was wrong. How do you then explain Haley and House, two of the highest-ceiling prep arms in last year’s draft? Are they just complete aberrations? Or are they the product of an organizational draft strategy that will take a flier on a high schooler if it’s not totally moronic to do so?
So basically, the criticism of the Indians for not drafting “younger, higher ceiling” players amounts to criticizing them for finishing too high in the year-end standings, and to admitting that you don’t actually follow the draft except to the extent that you whine about it. Mind you, I can’t even argue, after all this, that “safe” drafting is necessarily the right thing to do, to the extent that the Indians do it. But … the Indians’ “failure” to pursue prep players is perfectly defensible. If you want young, high-ceiling talent, start following the Dominican Summer League squad and get back to me in five years.
by fleerdon on Jun 23, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
With respect to the draft, I think critics very often were just whining about specific players they wished the Tribe had picked. Often, I’d read stuff like, “why did we pass over can’t miss prospects like Nick Adenhart and Rick Porcello?” rather than solid analysis. It sometimes has seemed to me to be Dolan-is-cheap talk in masquerade (Porcello) or “John Mirabelli is stupid and I am smart” talk (Adenhart) as much as anything.
by MTF on Jun 23, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here are some all of the high school guys we’ve drafted between 2004-2007 in the top 10 rounds:
TJ McFarland
Bo Greenwell
Ryan Morris
Chris Archer
Robert Alcombrack
Paolo Espino
John Drennen
Nick Weglarz
Roman Pena
Chuck Lofgren
Reinaldo Alicano
There are certainly a few interesting names here – but with the exception of Weglarz, none of these guys is really all that exciting. Last year’s draft included a fairly large group, and this doesn’t reflect a number of late round fliers – but I raise this to point out, as Tyler suggests, high school guys aren’t some magic tonic of high caliber talent.
by APV on Jun 23, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, not in this organization — that’s all this list proves. But I believe the larger point is true.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously there is lots and lots of research of varying quality on this topic – I just wanted to point out that we have actually drafted a fair number of high school guys high in the draft (though not the first round) and that the distribution of “excitingness” is pretty similar to high profile college guys we have drafted.
by APV on Jun 24, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since this post has sparked so much good debate about what is wrong, I’m going to try to be positive about one aspect of the future. If you look ahead to 2011, it seems to me that pretty much all the projected position player starters are already in the organization. And it looks pretty good…right?
C – Santana
1B – The Door
2B – Valbuena
SS – Droobs
3B – Peralta
LF – Brantley (maybe just a 4th outfielder)
CF – Sizemore
RF – Choo
DH – Hafner (obvious question marks aside)
In fact, much of that lineup could be in place in 2010. So that brings up some questions.
Obviously, it appears they’ll be moving DeRosa, Shoppach, and perhaps Garko/Francisco by the start of next season. But what about some others?
- Victor (2010 only)
- Peralta (if Chisenhall moves quickly)
- Weglarz
- Mills
Both Weglarz and Mills are generally perceived as good prospects, though they’re not having the best of seasons in AA. Could you package one of them along with one of the lower-tier starters to another small-market team for a younger arm that is arbitration-eligible?
We’ll see if they can grab a couple of arms to go along with the haul they received last summer. And to be insanely positive, I’ll end the post with this thought – when they win the World Series in 2010 or 2011, we’ll think that 2008-2009 was the best thing that ever happened!
by TribeJay on Jun 22, 2009 7:09 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I used to think you were so smart.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 7:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then he used The Door, the most absurd attempt at a nickname ever.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 22, 2009 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s true.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 23, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Much, much worse. Makes me cringe, actually.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 23, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn’t say I was smart. I said I was insane.
by TribeJay on Jun 22, 2009 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if the tables have turned on how we look at prospects slightly. Perhaps that is the new market inefficiency – if you can package and sell other GMs hope on decently regarded prospects, all the while banking on them being below average to bust. I know this sounds dumb, and maybe it requires impeccable scouting. But what if, right? Turn your iron into gold in a whole new way.
by joeee on Jun 22, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I mean, find the cost/benefit balance of prospects so that you can price your own prospects accurately. I wonder if the Indians cannot price their own minor league talent.
by joeee on Jun 22, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m probably referring to dealing prospects from perceived areas of strength.
by TribeJay on Jun 22, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, no doubt. But if you could put a perfect pricetag on everyone of your prospects, you’d deal a lot more efficiently. Many of the Tribe’s most famous prospect dealings or movements came only under ugly circumstances – when prospect’s value is low.
by joeee on Jun 23, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, and it isn’t always easy to deal at the right time, without the benefit of hindsight.
by TribeJay on Jun 23, 2009 8:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is required, sometimes, is the ability to stomach a large amount of risk. As Jay has hinted, if our scouting was better, maybe we’d be able to tell earlier that Sowers’ big league success was not going to be sustainable and trade him at a higher value than where he is now.
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted a FanShot with a link to Hoynes’s lastest interview with Paul Dolan.
There will be a “process” but the meetings with Shapiro have not started yet.
by palcal on Jun 22, 2009 8:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Part of me questions why this is such a big deal. Managers get fired all the time when their team underperforms.
It seems a lot of the soul-searching and “switching sides” on the Fe We issue has to do with identification with Shap and what he’s tried to do in crafting a winning organization. His giving Wedge such a large role in that project might tie Wedge’s deficiencies too closely to the overall goal. Crude interpretation -if Wedge goes, Shap was wrong, and therefore everything needs to change. I don’t think so.
While I don’t think Shap is perfect, I think he learns and adjusts fairly rapidly. Wedge doesn’t. Firing Wedge doesn’t need to completely call into question the whole enterprise. What if Wedge just isn’t the right guy?
To me, Wedge has strengths but also some pretty major failings. His clear preference for certain types of players regardless of talent, his inability to get the team ready to play by opening day, his (sorry) overall vibe of bottled up emotion, the tendency of his players to react to real or imagined pressure badly, his sometimes absurd visions of a flexible lineup (Garko in the OF? BenFran leadoff?), etc. We can do better, as a team and with another manager.
Meanwhile, the organization will probably go thru some extended, excruciatingly incremental process of internal evaluation and official sharing of blame in order to remove him, to no discernable benefit to anybody.
The team is playing like crap and needs a change of atmosphere. Just let him go. Nobody dies and maybe we start playing better.
by mcrose on Jun 22, 2009 8:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Part of me questions why this is such a big deal.
Because it goes against a lot of Shapiro’s organizational philosophy. The Shapiro Indians value the personal qualities that Wedge brings to the job. They feel that he’s a team player and a hard worker and a great leader; they feel Wedge embodies what they want to see in a leader. They also believe in stability, and they believe in judging officials based only on “controllables.”
I think they’ve philosophized themselves into a corner where they can’t just Fire The Manager. I understand the Dolans don’t mettle with the baseball people on the baseball issues. I think it’s fair to ask if this is really a baseball question anymore.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My answer is, not surprisingly, No, it’s a business decision. Their ability to fill seats for the rest of the year has never been lower this season. Their only chance at expanding attendance is to fire Wedge and play up the turn-around story.
by NickFantana on Jun 22, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Philosophized themselves into a corner” – not only a great line but has the virtue of being accurate.
I’m a Shap fan and think this is his biggest test so far. To date he has made adjustments to the finer points of his ideal when actuality refuses to accede. This point is not a finer one and aims at the heart of his original conception. But I do have faith in Shap, that he’ll find a way to retain his ideal goal without sacrificing it pretending a previous move that didn’t work out, even if its a personal relationship. It’s a business, which is the arena he gladly entered and sought principled success in in the first place.
It shouldn’t prevent him from firing the manager when necessary.
by mcrose on Jun 22, 2009 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
or maybe step 1 of Shap’s self-evaluation is to stop placing more emphasis on organizational stability than he currently does. maybe organizational stability can lead down two paths: Shap’s dream of competing every season in a small market, but the flip side is that the team is more likely to be mediocre or bad for multiple seasons because of the reluctance to change
by Roger Dorn on Jun 22, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a good point, and I think Shap is too self-aware (I refuse to say smart in this case), to realize that organizational stability doesn’t mean tenure.
I like the idea of having an organization that stresses process and rewards diligence. But results (nod to Churchill) are the test. Shap’s vision, for lack of a better word, has always seemed to me to be a dynamic one with a lot of turnover – acquire a lot of depth to compete for roster spots, trade players who’ve gotten too expensive for younger talent to feed the pool, reloading not rebuilding.
Stability, if its not measured in success, is inertia. If the mid-market team needs to be more nimble and internally focussed to compete, the people in charge of implementing it need to be subject to it as well.
by mcrose on Jun 22, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shapiro’s belief is that organizational stability correlates with excellence, not that it’s an end unto itself.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 22, 2009 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but he could be wrong about that.
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think he’s quite right about it, but that doesn’t mean that everyone is on an infinite leash. And I think that while the value of continuity means that “it’s time for a change” as a rationale gets pushed to the side, but that doesn’t mean it goes off the table entirely.
I honestly believe that Shapiro believes that Wedge has some very special qualities as a leader. It is demonstrably untrue, however, that those have translated well to helping a ballclub win games under the Shapiro regime.
Oddly enough, I think there is a better chance that Wedge would be successful for another team, possibly one in which his boss was challenging him more to find ways to work with different personalities, and maybe even pushing him more on playing time and strategy issues. Wedge definitely seems to be a person who has not benefitted from the monoculture.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s Hamlet. It doesn’t have to be such a big deal to fire the manager. It’s no indication of recklessness or instability to get rid of a guy after seven years. Too much thinking, here. Change something and see what happens. A little boldness, or even recklessness, can be useful here.
by odradek on Jun 22, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe he’s got the Seven Year Ache?
by woodsmeister on Jun 22, 2009 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suspect Shapiro thinks firing the manager in mid-season is reckless. I realize most of us disagree with that assessment.
by FredOx on Jun 23, 2009 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he’s made an error in judgment if that’s what he believes.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, he’s been quoted as saying that firing the manager at all is a “cop-out.” From Peter Gammon’s baseball blog from last night:
“I think,” Shapiro says, “just firing the manager is a cop-out. Winning is an organizational result. We haven’t had a very good team on the field at times; when you’re a small-market or medium-market team and go through injuries or players don’t perform as we hoped, it’s hard to replace them.”
by ShawnK on Jun 23, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what I am talking about. This is the sort of assumption he needs to re-think.
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reading this, my question is:
Does Shapiro have the authority to fire himself?
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He needs to learn when to jump off a sinking ship
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn’t seem like the type. All the quotes I have read lead me to believe he is going down with the ship…unless someone pushes him off.
by ShawnK on Jun 23, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He didn’t say firing the manager is a cop out. He said just firing the manager is a cop out. Those are two very different things. In my personal opinion, he’s right as to the former. This team needs more than a new manager. That’s not to say it doesn’t also need a new manager, just that firing Wedge is not enough, and firing Wedge alone is not going to change very much.
by FredOx on Jun 23, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I suppose he would like to fire many people on the team, but would find it hard to replace them.
by ShawnK on Jun 23, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This makes me think that if Wedge goes, lots of the staff is going as well, and we’ll see a titanic shake-up in personnel and philosophy.
by Voltaire on Jun 24, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I finally went and read this. I posted about it in the Dolan to meet with Shapiro thread. To me, the more revealing quote is at the bottom of the piece. I’ll re-print here.
"I am willing to accept the consequences of our reality," says Shapiro. "Accountability is singular, with me."
by NickFantana on Jun 23, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. By making this statement, he his holding himself accountable for all of Wedge’s decisions; and if he does not replace Wedge (either now or by the end of the 2009 season), he is suggestiong that he is not able or does want to find a better manager.
by ShawnK on Jun 23, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In which case, he should be fired.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 23, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Someone ran a poll on Shapiro being fired a while back, I wonder how the results would change if voters thought Shapiro would not fire Wedge.
by ShawnK on Jun 23, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And to think I wondered if the offense could produce at a high enough level to compete.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Jun 22, 2009 9:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
And what were your odds that the answer to that question was yes, but that it wouldn’t matter anyway. Because I know I sure wasn’t thinking that it would be this bad.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 10:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For my entire duration on this site, my avatar might change, but that lil Choo will always be in it.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can I take some credit please?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jun 22, 2009 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can take all the credit in the world. This is the best non birthday/Christmas gift that I’ve ever received!
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I certainly didn’t think the offense would be this good. Neither did I think the pitching would be this bad. I thought our immense depth would keep us from a total collapse.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Jun 22, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
theory #7: it truly is brutally difficult to consistently compete with mere mid-market financial resources. maybe no amount of out-smarting will allow the indians anything better than once-in-four-year success.
how many “smart” teams have won, or even played in, the world series? i would say the answer is one…the red sox (twice)…maybe 2, if you count the rays.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 22, 2009 10:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
which should not be misconstrued as “let’s just throw up our hands, then.” there can be different definitions of success, and it would seem to be incontrovertible that this team has underperformed, for which wedge, shapiro and the rest must be held accountable.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jun 22, 2009 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m disappointed, but I’m not surprised.
We’re seven or eight seasons post The Great Purge. The rebuilding effort reached a fine but perhaps premature moment in 2005, when a $41M team won 93 ballgames. After a quick retooling, the rebuild then reached its pinnacle in 207 with the $61M club rivaling Boston as the best team in either league. Since then, it’s been a bit of patchwork to an existing but unfortunately inconsistent core.
Jhonny is a sure bet to be anything but sure. Starting pitchers are alternating Cy Young and Cy Yuck seasons. Relievers sometimes go entire seasons without providing relief.
A few seasons later, long-term contracts have been signed by select members of the rebuild and some outsiders. No deal, with the exception of Sizemore’s, has been ideal. Dellucci, Wood, Fausto, Westbrook, Hafner—at time time of their signings, all but Hafner looked like damn prudent moves. And Hafner, considering his history and the due diligence we know the Indians performed, was risky but wasn’t Carlos Lee, Alfonso Soriano, or Barry Zito stupid.
That’s the nature of the big-dollar game. We’ve seen during this time period plenty of other players not work out, but the likes of Jason Davis, Ryan Ludwick, and Ricardo Rodriguez just make their way elsewhere without establishing expectations and then damning the front office and fans when they fail to meet those expectations.
It’s an older team, but not an old team. It’s a more expensive team, but not a payroll bust. It’s the cost of progress from the early part of the decade, and it appears to be mostly just a collection of pieces that doesn’t fit. But there’s an offensive core in place: Victor, at least for another year, with Choo, Grady, Droobs, the part-time but productive Hafner, and the maybes of LaPorta, Valbuena, and a displaced Jhonny. Finding pitching is going to be the key.
I’m excited for the trade deadline. Shapiro and his team are good at this part. I just expect things to be done differently this offseason, when the Indians find a way to interject into this team a starting pitcher or two to join Lee, Laffey, and Huff.
by xrickx on Jun 22, 2009 10:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Starting pitchers are alternating Cy Young and Cy Yuck seasons.
Really?
find a way to interject into this team a starting pitcher or two to join Lee, Laffey, and Huff.Jake and Fausto?
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 22, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you want Jake back as much as I do? I’m sure you do, I really want him back.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
by USSChoo on Jun 22, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Really. Fausto and Cliff Lee pulled the trick.
And Westbrook and Carmona would be nice. But I’m not sure what to expect. If Jake has a solid two months to end the season, you can pencil him in. I don’t think you go into 2010 counting on Fausto for anything.
by xrickx on Jun 22, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think you go into 2010 counting on Fausto for anything.
I think you do. Fausto is working on what is, essentially, a mechanical issue. Why not think he gets that fixed?
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 22, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because in 18 months, he hasn’t fixed it. I’m not saying he can’t. I’m not saying he won’t. But you don’t go into the 2010 season with him penciled in as a prime contributor.
by xrickx on Jun 23, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think of him as a medical patient with an existing condition. They knew it was there but they let it get worse and worse because it didn’t seem to bother him. Now he’s been rushed to ICU, where emergency surgery should fix the issue. I see no reason to assume he won’t at least be in the rotation next year.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
by fwembt on Jun 23, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m generally supportive of Wedge due to his steadiness and professionalism, though that last attribute has certainly waned some this year. As for game to game moves, my philosophy is that I don’t get too worked up about those, since there are so many decisions that a manager has to make that the odds are I’m going to disagree with some of them. For instance, I think Wedge goes to the extreme with the no-doubles defense, and though I’m not generally a fan of the suicide squeeze, I’d like for him to use it once or twice a year, instead of never. But otherwise, I never really had a problem with him. If you really believed that he pinch-hit Crowe for Garko as a strategic move this weekend, then you let your anti-Wedge bias cloud your judgment as to what really was happening.
I’m also of the belief that after you’ve had enough failure at one position, either as a manger or a player trying to establish yourself in an organization, a change of scenery is best for all involved. That’s why if a move is made, I would really be surprised if they don’t start playing better. It doesn’t happen all the time, but a) there are examples of sudden change in performance of a team when this occurs (Rockies this year), and b) this team is due for a hot streak anyway.
Therefore, even though I believe in stability, I won’t have a problem if a move is made. Also, once the manager’s job status becomes daily news, it’s tough to go back and not make a move. If a move is made, I’d like them to either go outside the organization or go with one of their special assistants (Tim Belcher, Ellis Burks, Robby Thompson, if they’re interested), rather than someone from the current staff.
by TribeJay on Jun 22, 2009 10:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I really do not have any problem with Wedge’s managerial decisions beyond the occasional why is Garko playing LF? I have nothing to support this beyond a gut feeling that there is something with the pyschology of the team under Wedge that is hindering it from just having fun and playing loose.
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have the same feeling, and have hesitated to bring it up because I have no quantitative data, no facts to back it up, but I do think that part of baseball should be just plain having fun out there. And Wedge’s teams, apart from the 2007 team with Trot Nixon and his pies, just don’t ever look like they’re having fun. It’s work, it’s over-pressurized drudgery, day in and day out, and these guys are just worn out mentally.
So I don’t expect Wedge to be fired before the season ends, because of Shapiro’s famous loyalty, but I think that’s a mistake and he should be shown the door and Skinner handed the reins for the rest of the year. And I’m not saying we should copy the White Sox exactly, hiring some unpredictable loudmouth just for the hell of it, but I do want to see somebody in the dugout who actually seems to enjoy the fact that he gets to wear a big league uniform every day. So that to me says Skinner should be given a real chance, and if not him I’m very willing to give Lovullo a shot, but I don’t want another overly intense and inward guy like Showalter.
by mrich on Jun 23, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course one could also argue that the “having fun out there” correlated more with winning than with pies. Do teams win more when they are having fun, or have more fun when they win more? My biggest problem with Wedge is that he doesn’t seem to have a feel for who should be on the field, suggesting that he should either manage in the minors and work on individual player development, or manage a team where the margins are broader.
by FredOx on Jun 23, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There were no pies when we lost.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you don’t get the pie until after you win, so anticipation of pies cause winning.
by FredOx on Jun 23, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’ve been thinking about this. I’m not so sure the 2007 team was a bunch of loose, goofy guys. That team was wrapped pretty tight as well—though not as much as 2008 and this season. The team’s success, to me, wasn’t attributable to their laidback attitude. I don’t think Trot Nixon’s routine made it fun to play. In retrospect, I think it was some sort of club-sanctioned silliness. An approved way to let off steam. In a way, the pie-throwing seemed oppressive. Stupid, as well, but it seemed to be almost pro forma, obligatory. Have the Indians been loose since Charlie Manual had the couch removed from the clubhouse?
by odradek on Jun 23, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Have the Indians been loose since Charlie Manual had the couch removed from the clubhouse?
We’ve finally gotten to the bottom of things. I’m satisfied.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 23, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Many times, when you have a feeling, it’s that you are observing something and your subconscious tells you that you see something. It may be about body language or other things that you don’t know how to quantify. Part of maturation is learning to trust your powers of observation. Of course, you should test your feelings with other deductive tools if hard data is unavailable.
Are the contributors to LGT so imposing that one might fear to suggest their feeling without data?
by elsandito on Jun 23, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It happens a lot, it’s just dismissed because there isn’t really a way to expand on the topic except to the point of pointless back and forth that can’t really be supported
by Roger Dorn on Jun 23, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember cleveland.com complaining when Grady and Coco were clowning around between innings during the final game of 2005. This anecdote totally defeats your point.
by Voltaire on Jun 24, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anecdotes are amazing like that.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 24, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I had a friend who was a really talented baseball player in high school but just gave it up to do other stuff. Talented all around guy. But a while ago I was trying to tell him that baseball needed instant replay – I believe I used Jay’s poignant phrasing (not his argument) “everyone in the world knows what happened except for the four guys whose job it is.” My friend replied: something like, “yeah, but who cares? Its like dugout society. Baseball is just like that.” I really couldn’t say anything back.
by joeee on Jun 24, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares: The people paying the bills for everyone in the dugout.
Contrary to their occasionally dense belief, the games are not being played for the benefit of the players.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 24, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course they care. That’s just the thing you know? It threatens dugout society. Next their gonna have all sorts of clauses in their contract that say they can’t slide on the tarp during rain delays!
by joeee on Jun 24, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They’re, goodness gracious I need to hit preview.
by joeee on Jun 24, 2009 2:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, and while I probably did use that phrase or something close to it, I think I probably stole it from someone else. I’m thinking Tim Kirkjian.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 24, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was umpire Chris Guccione, in Bruce Weber’s As They See ‘Em: A Fan’s Travels in the Land of Umpires.
“You got instant replay on television, you got the Internet, you got the announcers in the booth, you got the scoreboard replaying it for the fans,” Guccione said. “Everybody in the world knows what happened on that play except the four guys on the field who are supposed to see it. Does that make sense to you?”Guccione’s massively blown call on an A-Rod homer in Yankee Stadium (he called it a double, although it cleared the fence by at least 10 feet) is one of the main reasons we have replay in the first place.
by FredOx on Jun 24, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You only get real change if it screws the Yankees first
by Roger Dorn on Jun 24, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Amazing stuff as always. Thanks for doing this.
by supermarioelia on Jun 22, 2009 11:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
as sad as this season is, at least they are not talking about moving the team and ball park is a great place to watch a game win or lose.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jun 22, 2009 11:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What happens if a non-GT needs a part 2? Do we get #s 7, 8 and 9?
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 23, 2009 12:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sure.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(subject line deleted in order to fit in)
Not sure what I think about all of this, but this is an honest set of hard reflections at a frustrating time.
Not sure what I think of Shapiro any more, but whatever happens with him, take it from a Royals fan: it can definitely get worse.
I'm not a sabermetrician, but I do play one at Driveline Mechanics.
by devil_fingers on Jun 23, 2009 1:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Our drafts have stunk, but what annoys me more is that Boston’s drafts have been great which means I can no longer attribute their success to deep pockets only.
Not sure where this fits in, but I thought all of you should have access to my feelings.
by piersall on Jun 23, 2009 1:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Boston’s draft success is largely attriutable to their deep pockets, although there is no doubt they have also excelled with the quality of their evaluation.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 23, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope we resign Jamey Carroll.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jun 23, 2009 1:59 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I unfortunately haven’t been able to follow this whole thread – but I think I would go with a little bit of #‘s 1-5, but pass on #6. And I don’t think the solution is blowing up the front office, I think it is taking stock and re-evaluation how things are done. And if anything, I have more confidence in this front office to do that than I would in just about any other potential front office. It is also interesting that you can find interesting counterpoints to a lot of these. Kerry Wood’s signing was pretty widely questioned by the sabermetric community, despite the near-unanimous joy it invoked here in Cleveland. The Indians minor league system, since Shapiro took over, has gone from near the bottom of the spectrum when he arrived to consistently being in the top half, and often the top 10, based on multiple different perspectives (i.e. BP vs. BA). I presume part of the reasons the Indians brought in Buck Showalter in 2007 was the issue of #5 (and maybe a little #4). I don’t know if Buck had any role in helping CC and Fausto carry us into the post-season that year, but I thinking adding in a different perspective, possibly in the form of a new manager (although there are much less disruptive ways of doing this), is probably a good thing. I think we have already begun to see the Indians addressing some of these issues and changing the way they do things internally. Some of the roster shuffling in our minor league system this year and the associated front office statements seem to reflect that. It’s possible next year’s draft and international signing portfolio will look a lot different than this years (this year’s draft reflects the past two years of scouting work – so I think you have to look at it in the still rosy afterglow of 2007 perspective).
My point is – I don’t want to see major changes to the front office, but I would like to see evidence that they are making changes in how they look at, evaluate and decide some things.
by APV on Jun 24, 2009 3:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I am not all that impressed by some of the deck-chair shuffling this season, as it seems to reflect in-season panic rather than a long-term course correction, and I’m not sure the short-term moves have anything to do with what the long-term moves ought to be.
I’m not particularly swayed by some of your counterpoints. Other than a handful of bloggers (who frankly are not leading sabermetricians), he sabermetric community as a whole was lukewarm to the Wood deal but not really disapproving. The reaction was that it might have been a little bit of an oversign, but everyone could understand why the Indians had done it. The minor league system’s improved rankings have been almost entirely on the backs of Shapiro’s trades for already-blossoming prospects, a subject I addressed in the article. We have a great system right now, but we haven’t had an elite system since the start of 2003, when it included Victor, Jhonny, Hafner, Coco, Phillips, Sizemore and Lee.
I am surprised you’re not into theory #6. I would have thought that the GM caring what the manager thinks would be pretty low on your list.
I do wonder what the influence of a guy like Showalter was. I don’t know what he did, but I do believe that the Indians have a real disinterest in hearing fresh ideas from different types of people than they’re used to working with.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 24, 2009 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I admit the counterpoints are a bit weak and I didn’t mean to imply that the in-season changes we’ve witnessed so far represent dramatic shifts – only that they do represent some degree of self-reflexivity and willingness to adjust on the part of the front office. I share your interest in the Indians bringing in outside voices. In my research experience, the best research groups and leaders have been those who regularly bring in outside voices to provide, if nothing else, a “fresh set of eyes” on a problem. I do get the sense that the “careful decision making process” of the Indians is also associated with a degree of inflexibility in how problems are examined and addressed. I find this a bit ironic since part of Shapiro’s philosophy when it comes to roster/organization construction in an emphasis on personnel flexibility – but the same attitude doesn’t seem to extend to higher level organizational philosophy. I think it is a valid line of questioning to wonder about the lack of long-time “baseball guys” within the front office.
by APV on Jun 24, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And my questioning of number 6 relates to this:
The Indians are smart, serious and well-intentioned. But when they make their decisions, they put a lot of emphasis on a bunch of things that, in the grand scheme of things, really do not help a baseball team win ballgames.
I think a lot of things contribute to winning ballgames, and I think especially when the uncertainty around most of those things is large relative to the effect, it makes sense to try to focus on lots of different things. I’m also not sure how much of an “effort” actually goes into these things once the initial groundwork of putting an organizational structure into place happens.
by APV on Jun 24, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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