Game 73: Pirates 10, Indians 6
by Ryan on Jun 25, 2009 12:30 AM EDT
in Game Threads
89 comments
On June 5, Carl Pavano pitched a three-hit shutout in Chicago. In his three subsequent starts, he's been lit up, giving up nine earned runs against the Royals, six earned runs against the Brewers, and three runs (eight total) in 3.2 innings tonight. He briefly pushed his ERA under five after the Chicago start, but now it's back around 6.00. I think Pavano is running out of gas, for he has essentially gone four years since making it through a full major-league season. Early in the game, Pavano was hurt by errors and groundball singles, but in his last inning Pirate hitters were lacing line drives to the outfield.
When Pavano left the game in the third, the Indians trailed 7-0. Jensen Lewis, last year's closer, came into the game to milk some innings. Lewis has been one the few relievers to stick in Cleveland the entire season, but at this point he's up here simply because there are worse pitchers commanding attention. He gave up his ninth home run of the season to the first batter he faced. This season he's been giving up home runs about once every 4 innings. That's completely unacceptable for any pitcher, much less a reliever. But then again, he hasn't been as bad as many other relievers, so he's stuck around for three months. The Indians scored 6 runs in the ninth thanks to several errors, but deficit was too much for even a very crooked number to overcome.
So, as things stand. we have a rotation consisting of Cliff Lee, a rookie pitcher just learning the ropes, a bunch of injured guys, and the Columbus starting rotation. And in the bullpen, the Indians have a $10M closer in the midst of a week-long meltdown, with everyone behind him pitching just as badly. The offense is getting healthy, but it doesn't look like it's a match for the pitching staff.
Next Up: Lee vs. Ohlendorf, 7:05 PM
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Kelly Shoppach | .067 | Carl Pavano (the pitcher) | -.345 |
| Jamey Carroll | .042 | Luis Valbuena | -.099 |
| Mark DeRosa | .039 | Carl Pavano (the hitter) | -.094 |
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You guys sound a lot like the Brewers, but with a worse bullpen.
It was a great selection of awesome.
by battlekow on Jun 25, 2009 12:59 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
about right. I felt we were pretty evenly matched watching the series, just our bullpen was so much worse that you guys were able to pull out every game
by Roger Dorn on Jun 25, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, Carl Pavano had 2 of the 3 worst WPAs… that’s quite a feat….
by Logodaedalus on Jun 25, 2009 1:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For my personal shorthand I’ve shortened TINSTAAPP to TINSTAP.
by mcrose on Jun 25, 2009 1:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There is no such thing as Pavano?
by Logodaedalus on Jun 25, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitching!
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 25, 2009 8:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Note to Mark Shapiro: This is what a trade looks like…
From cleveland.com under the Shaq article. So apparently we just need to trade for Barry Bonds and the championship is ours.
by APV on Jun 25, 2009 3:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow. You just broke the news for me. Cool.
by dgcambridge on Jun 25, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FWIW, the Indians scored 5 runs in the 9th.
A month ago when everyone was saying Pavano had this great trade value, I argued that we would only get a Paul Byrd deal in return. A few people said I was crazy, and that Pavano was worth much more than that. Well, I think we are going to see more clunkers like this one (kind of like how Byrd would) mixed in with some gems as Pavano can feast on over-aggressive lineups. Pavano was essentially a new pitcher to this league for the first few months and now that the book is going around on his stuff, you can’t live on doubling up on a changeup.
by Toxicadam on Jun 25, 2009 7:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Unless you’re Huff pitching to Andrew McCutchen — then you TRIPLE it up baby!
by CBusSteve on Jun 25, 2009 8:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Had he sustained his earlier production (big if I know) we would have done better than the Paul Byrd deal
by Roger Dorn on Jun 25, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pavano was essentially a new pitcher to this league for the first few months and now that the book is going around on his stuff, you can’t live on doubling up on a changeup.
Proof?
by world dictator on Jun 25, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt we’d trade Pavano under any circumstance. It’s not classy.
by jhon on Jun 25, 2009 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, you’re saying that Pavano’s problem last night was that he’s no longer new to the league? Pitching against the Pirates?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I saw “the book” being passed around the Pirates dugout during the game.
by JimmyAB on Jun 25, 2009 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They were looking at the book, and then pointing out at Pavano on the mound, and laughing.
by odradek on Jun 25, 2009 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe I am off but i think you try to trade Pavano ( I think this is obvious) but if not I think you release him I dont know what the point would be in 1. paying his incentives 2. not allowing young guys to pitch.
Rotation after the break:
1. Lee
2. Westbrook (maybe a little late in july)
3. Laffey
4 Huff
5 Lewis ( I cant stand to watch sowers pitch anymore)/ young guy we get for DeRosa
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That decision can be made when perhaps 2 of the 3 injured pitchers get healthy
by Roger Dorn on Jun 25, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea I understand that I assume Laffey and Lewis will be back after the break… I guess I could handle Ohka for a few starts until westbrook gets back
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which young guys are being blocked by Pavano? Westbrook, Laffey and Lewis aren’t healthy, and there’s no knowing when they will be. At his current pace, Pavano would earn less than $2 MM in incentives, not exactly breaking the bank.
by FredOx on Jun 25, 2009 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I am talking about after the break and I would rather see Ohka pitch at this point
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am assuming… without a set back Laffey and Lewis should be back after the break I think we kind of know when they will be back,,, Westbrook is another story
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lewis just had a setback. Barring another setback, he may be back after the break. If he is, and if he pitches well the rest of the way in his rehab stint, he’ll get his chances.
by FredOx on Jun 25, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why exactly would we release Pavano?
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 25, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because it would satisfy the momentary impulses of fans who don’t really care to think things through.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Jay. To be honest i just dont feel like the Indians have a real use for him or sending him back out to get hammered … I was not a fan of the signing from the start and I think we are probably just starting a delayed Jason Johnson signing….
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And your comment about thinking it through … I have…I just think we have come to a different conclusion….
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have come to the conclusion that you’d rather release Pavano than attempt to trade him?
Then you have not, in fact, thought it through.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no… lower in the post I said I would try and trade him I dont think we will get anything and if not then we should release him
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is what I said earlier:
Maybe I am off but i think you try to trade Pavano ( I think this is obvious) but if not I think you release him I dont know what the point would be in 1. paying his incentives 2. not allowing young guys to pitch.
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The incentives will be minimal if they are anything.
If we release him and another team picks him up, I think we still end up paying incentives.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 1:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I guess when laffey and lewis get back I just dont see the use for him unless someone else gets hurt
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I guess when laffey and lewis get back I just dont see the use for himunlessuntil someone else gets hurt
There. Better.
by peter m on Jun 25, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and even then we could bring up cassel or sarloos. if you dont want to hurt the development of good young pitching by bring them up to early
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he can rear back and throw harder when he’s our 8th inning man for our championship run.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 25, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pavano actually has more value to us now precisely because of the injury status of these young arms that he’s supposedly blocking. if we were going to trade him, we should have sold high. Now he’ll bring a lower return anyway, and having him in the rotation allows us to ease the injured young guys and Westbrook back in or account for setbacks in their rehab.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 25, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
what makes you think we can get anything for pavano at this point? his arm looks shot.
by gmfrodo on Jun 25, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is kind of the point… we are not going to get anything for him mostly likely unless the mariners would like to give us more talent for nothing… but other than that I think by releasing him the Dolans save money and Shapiro from having to answer questions about why he sign him in the first place.. Ohka will be good enough until the injured guys get back
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Dolans do not save any money by releasing him.
Maybe that is what is confusing you.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well is he continue to pitch and reach his innings dont some bonus kick in?
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t we avoid paying his incentives as he reaches them?
by Roger Dorn on Jun 25, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I note above, I believe if we release him and some other team picks him up — which will happen — we end up paying the incentives anyway. The savings will be insignificant.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he’s running out of gas he might be an attractive option in the bullpen if we can’t trade him
by world dictator on Jun 25, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s an interesting idea. We could use a closer…..
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 25, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IS Having issues: The rift between manager Eric Wedge and Jhonny Peralta don’t seem to go away. Wedge has called Peralta out publicly several times over the years. He did again last week. Wedge had questioned Peralta’s efforts.
In MLB.com:
But Peralta said he is perplexed as to why Wedge implied that he doesn’t play hard. Peralta heard the message through the media, and he heard it from Wedge himself in a closed-door meeting that preceded the public tongue-lashing.
“I say to him, ‘You can say that I don’t play hard or whatever, but I’m the same guy every time,’” Peralta said. "Whether I play good or bad, I play the same. You can’t say I don’t play hard, because I try to do my best every time. Sometimes things don’t [go your way], and that’s baseball.
“Every year, [Wedge and I] have the same problem. I don’t know why. I try to do my job.”
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There is some sort of personality conflict going on there. I noticed at one point last year Jhonny was absolutely scorching the ball, but he made one meaningless error, and he was benched the next day. I couldn’t believe it.
For what it’s worth, the personalities of Jhonny and Marte strike me as similar
by Roger Dorn on Jun 25, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea I agree and I know I might catch fire for this but I think Tony Pena is the perfect manager for this club and will give a totally different personaility when handling players and in game situations
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I remember his hitting Jose Mesa in the head with his glove during a game. Maybe that would help Sowers. It would be fun to see, anyway.
by peter m on Jun 25, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fire wedge…bring back Agent M? Hmmm I’m liking this
by world dictator on Jun 25, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I truly believe Jhonny can hit 280 and be a 20/20 guy ….. he just simply need a new manager who shows some faith and can communicate well with him
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 9:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
20 SBs?? Oh, are you referring to his LASIK surgery?
by cleveland teamer on Jun 25, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At his current pace, Jhonny will reach 20 SB in 2015.
by FredOx on Jun 25, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe so, but I don’t have a huge problem with the manager saying
He’s got to get his head straight. Jhonny’s not a baby anymore. He’s been up here five or six years. He’s going to have to figure it out.To be fair, Wedge also said
Jhonny Peralta’s definitely heading in the right direction. He looks better and better at third base, and he’s swinging the bat very well.I find it curious that Wedge calls Jhonny out, and hopefully the next manager figures out how to get through to Jhonny. Appealing to his pride doesn’t seem to work.
by FredOx on Jun 25, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No 20 double and 20 HR…. I just hope the next manager can motivate him from the 1st pitch of the season and can motivate him out of slumps quickly
by NCTRIB on Jun 25, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
20 doubles is not much of an accomplishment. Of the 92 guys to hit 20 HR last year, only 8 failed to also hit 20 doubles.
by FredOx on Jun 25, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oddly, Adrian Gonzalez has only 8 so far this season, versus 24 HRs.
by cleveland teamer on Jun 25, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Without looking, 10 Yankees probably have those kind of home numbers.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 25, 2009 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Peralta hit 42 doubles last year. And 23 homers. It’s not he can be that player. He’s already been a better player.
by odradek on Jun 25, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to what NCTRIB posted though, it appears Jhonny has been called out for poor effort behind closed doors in front of the whole team too. For someone who may be giving his fullt effort, that can be discouraging
by Roger Dorn on Jun 25, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In front of the whole team? That’s not what it says.
Of course that hardly matters when the manager just says it to the newspapers.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I mistook closed door meeting as a team meeting. It appears it was a 1 on 1
by Roger Dorn on Jun 25, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Closed-door generally refers to the manager’s office, one-on-one or two-on-one.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one of the only things I like about Wedge is that he calls Jhonny out.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 25, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This means you also like American league umpires!
by peter m on Jun 25, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
heh… that took me a few seconds, but nice.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 25, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not this.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
one of the only things I like about Wedge is that he calls Jhonny out.
I would like him better if he could get Jhonny to play effectively
by world dictator on Jun 25, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
This.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So let’s say we put Pavano on the DL for a month or so at some point… how does that affect his bonuses? He obviously won’t be racking up innings while on the DL, but does anything get pro-rated during that hypothetical time?
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 25, 2009 11:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think I’m answering my own question here: The whole point of the tiered bonus was to pay him only if he was healthy. Duuh.
FE WEE
by westbrook on Jun 25, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be the world’s dumbest contract, wouldn’t it? You can’t stay healthy, so we’ll pay you a pro-rated incentive if you get hurt…
by FredOx on Jun 25, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was actually happy at the end of the game last night. I felt better last night than I did the night before.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jun 25, 2009 12:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Because of Grady.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just about to post the same thing. I can’t remember a sweeter swing all season. I hope that means he’s completely healthy (though I realize it’s the elbow/throwing that’s the issue).
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 25, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
whether this was the reason she was happy or not, it is now.
by Brick. on Jun 25, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nuh-uh. Because we scored runs. And didn’t look completely dead in the end.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jun 25, 2009 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wegz line for today’s game (after homering in each of the last two): 1-1, 1 HR, 4 BB.
Josh Judy gets the win in relief.
by dgcambridge on Jun 25, 2009 3:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
So you’re saying Wegz can take LaPorta’s place in Columbus?
by FredOx on Jun 25, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you set aside his 5-59 performance in April (i’m not saying that it’s the fair thing to do), he’s basically hit exactly like Wieters did last year.
Wieters is a catcher, but still, it’s a nice track to be on.
by dgcambridge on Jun 25, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I know you’re just kinda joking, but I believe that A) as soon as the Indians think he should be in Columbus he will be (he’s a premium prospect) and B) although I’m he will get moved up, the Indians don’t get too concerned about the difference between AA and AAA.
by dgcambridge on Jun 25, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Sizemore tonight, via that Twitter page.
It’s a little strange that he didn’t sit against the lefty.
by dgcambridge on Jun 25, 2009 5:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The latest indication that trying to win games this week is no longer that big of a priority.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 25, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The ‘pen is just ahead of the curve, that’s all.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 25, 2009 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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