Is Our Fans Learning?
by tabler84 on Jun 28, 2009 9:13 AM EDT
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PrintI can't take credit for the concept of this post; it comes from the mind of one of the site's leaders, who thought it might be humorous / cathartic / massochistic / instructive. So here's what I've done: I've waded through miles of Cleveland.com comments in search of the most representative of Cleveland Sports Fan Idiocy. Given the usual high quality and astute commenting, you'd think I'd be searching for needles in large, sprawling haystacks, but NO: It was actually rather easy to find stupid comments. I've compiled some of my favorite, along with a quick take on why they're included. Have fun, grab the popcorn, and prepare to break the nearest bottle and stab yourself with it.
From maxx46:
False hope with every victory. Blow a kiss to Lee too. He's gone come September.
My take: This just might be the dumbest of all the comments I've read. It implies that we'll hold Lee through this trading deadline, even though we're deteremined to trade him now, and... waive him in September? Trade him the moment the season ends? This is awesome.
From whaticee:
Talent evaluators of the draft have been way off for many years. Look it up. The last good pick was Victor Martinez. Sadly those bad draft picks are now in the majors. From an all star at every poistion to no all stars at any position
My take: I did look it up, douchebag. Victor was signed as an amateur free agent in 1996. But I admire your confidence in the face of facts; clearly we have no stars at any position at all.
From dawginutah, regarding Jensen Lewis getting yanked after walking the first two batters of the ninth with a 7-run lead:
It sounds like the poor guy is on Wedgie's sh!t list. That means he will be treated like Brandon Phillips & others Wedge disliked or didn't respect. So add Lewis to the long list of players who will one day excell elsewhere cause this sounds like just the beginning of that kind of treatment for Jensen. And who's to say Wedge wasn't at fault for pitching him more than one inning? Even tho' it wasn't a close situation why not bring in Wood for the ninth?
My take: Wow.
From dogdale:
Garko
does anyone realize he's on pace (actually a tad ahead) to match last ears RBI total? 90 in 495 / 30 in 159.
Why doesn't he play everyday? his numbers scream that with consistent starts he excels. Oh I guess we don't want him driving in too many runs....
My take: Until dogdale pointed it out, I didn't realize that management was trying to prevent the team from scoring runs. I was under the impression that being third in the AL in runs scored was a sign that the lineup has been productive. Clearly the ills of this season would have been remedied by more Ryan Garko!
From LariSpitler, following the DeRosa trade:
I ask why we start trading away players 1 month plus before trading deadline. This is how negotiations work, the closer you get to the deadline the more desperate teams are to get their players. . .We on the other hand trade them a month earlier. Time for Shapiro and Wedge to go.
My take: I included this one because there are literally dozens of commenters who think it's obvious that waiting until the deadline trumps trading now. One even called for Shapiro to die (that comment was thankfully removed).
From tdawg69, following the DeRosa trade:
Unbelievable! The only reason they would do this so early is to save $$ on his salary....
RP Mujica 2.95 ERA
SP Sabathia 3.55 ERA 78K's
RP Julian Tavarez 3.65ERA
My take: Yes, saving one month of DeRosa's salary was the only reason to trade him. Sharp analysis. I also like my buddy 69's list of Mujica (the obviously dominant bullpen force whom we just refused to keep because of his big contract), Sabathia (the guy who was begging us to offer him a discount contract just so he could sign here for life), and Tavarez (WTFBBQ?!) This is roughly like saying, "It's worth paying more in cap-and-trade because BOAT, SAUCER, McRIB SANDWICH AM I RIGHT?
From bbcoach:
Well how long are the Dolan's going to wait to tell Shapiro to get rid of Wedge, Willis and Shelton. Hopefully soon. The pitchers are not pitching and are not in the game. The hitters have no clue but to try going for the fences all the time (how about hitting to the opposite field, it is called situational hitting) and when you make a minor league lineup out what do you expect against real major leaguers.
My take: Please tell me the "bb" in your name stands for "basketball."
From indians75959:
NOT SOWERS,HE HAS BEEN A STIFF AND ALWAYS WILL BE.PLEASE LARRY DOLAN, GIVE THIS 59 YEAR OLD GUY A CHANCE TO PITCH IN SOWERS PLACE? PLEASE, I CAN DO THE SAME IF NOT BETTER AND SAVE YOU A TON OF MONEY, ISN'T THAT WHAT IT'S ALL ABOUT WITH YOU?
My take: Gotta love the all-caps approach. Sowers has been a letdown, but some fans on cleveland.com have accused Wedge and Shapiro of "lying" to fans when Sowers pitches, because they just know that sending Sowers out there is an effort to lose.
From fauxnuze:
Has the trend of when we have high expectatiouns = horrible team and low expectations = winners struck anyone yet? Whats up with that? High expectation cause WEDGE to CHOKE. Slow starts, choking down the stretch or worse (Boston)...I can imagine Wedges pregame comments. Hey guys, we HAVE to win THIS GAME! Someone has to hit a grand slam...whatever one says to totally freak someone. Dude is a minor league manager. That's all and thats it. He's prpoved it again and again
My take: I love the idea of Wedge running around frantically in the clubhouse shouting, "Someone has to hit a grandslam! Who's it going to be? Grady, GRAND SLAM! Start us off!"
From aebleone:
Hey, remember Ed Mujica who couldnt get anyone out for the Tribe? Well, he's pitched 32 innings for the Padres and has a 2.23 ERA and 30K's to only 9 BB's. Add him to the list of players such as Brandon Phillips,Jeremy Guthrie, and Ryan Ludwick that Wedge wasn't able to turn into Major League ballplayers but other teams have made into superstars! A couple more players on the Tribe's current roster heading that way include Josh Barfield and Trevor Crowe.
My take: Ed Mujica is a superstar! So is Guthrie! And Ludwick! And it's pretty easy to project that Barfield and Crowe will become superstars once the shackles of Wedge are removed.
From HardPanther:
The bullpen is absolute junk!
This is what Paul Dolan spent $81 mill on instead of keeping Millwood, CC and Bob Howry, back then.
Joe Smith was part of a Mets Bullpen that blew their division lead 2 years in a row. Why did Shapiro think that Smith would do any better here?
My take: The Indians have a magical hill of money that they just refuse to mine for studs such as Bob Howry.
Conclusions: Any time a team struggles, fans will be unhappy. That's fine. But the comments above are not exactly outliers in a sea of reasonable reaction. There is a deep, fundamental misunderstanding of how money works in this game. Jay and others have worked hard to elucidate the options that a team like Cleveland has when it comes to free agency, player retention, etc. And yet there remains a huge mountain to climb to help the average fan have even a basic understanding.
I'm not Eric Wedge fan, but clearly fans are ascribing every problem with this team... Eh, what's the point? He's going to have to be fired, whether it's entirely fair or not.
Finally, there is absolutely no appreciation for Choo, Shoppach, or even the strong seasons turned in for several years by Peralta. The fans are palpably angry at the team and management. READ THIS DOLAN
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Some of this made me laugh, but honestly I’m not sure I see the point.
So you’re saying you can pick through the cleveland.com comments and find a high volume of stupid people saying stupid things? That shouldn’t be surprising to anyone. Most fanbases are stupid. Get on the Boston Globe, Baltimore Sun, or NY Post sites and look at the comments—they’ll all be substantially similar to what you find on the PD’s site, at least in terms of tone and substance. If educating the common fan is your goal, good luck buddy—that’s an uphill battle if I’ve ever seen one.
Also, while you concede that it’s “fine” that the fans are frustrated , you seem to take issue with the fact that fans are “palpably angry at the team and management.” Hell dude, what do you want? We suck. We sucked last year. We’ve sucked every year of the Wedge/Shapiro era except for ‘05 and ’07. Fans aren’t upset that Sabathia and others have left—they’re upset that the Indians have generally been a bad baseball team, and they’re wrongfully attributing this suck-iness to decisions like not playing Garko, DFA’ing Mujica, and not resigning Sabathia.
When so-called “educated” fans look at Shapiro’s tenure, they see a beautiful, well-designed plan that has continually been foiled by bad luck and underperformance. When so-called casual fans look at Shapiro’s tenure, they see a team that has had a total of two winning seasons and one playoff appearance since 2002. Both sides are unwilling to look at information that doesn’t fit with or contradicts their evaluation. Neither side can legitimately claim to have a better grasp on the truth than the other.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 28, 2009 9:53 AM EDT reply actions
Wow, you are so wrong in so many ways that I don’t even know where to start.
First, the point was that these comments are representative of a large portion of Cleveland fans. Part of the reason is to make us laugh while we’re all crying about the season; the other part is to demonstrate just how difficult it is for management to reason with the average fan. Some of it’s obvious, but really, I had no idea that so many fans think that Garko is getting screwed or that Shoppach is the King of Suck or that Mujica was an obvious star-in-waiting.
Second, there is something very wrong with fans who are palpably angry to the point of screaming or threats of violence. I have no idea why this isn’t obvious to you.
Third, you’re wrong: Fans are upset that Sabathia left. They’re also upset that we suck, but independent of that, they’re furious about our decision to let Sabathia go.
Fourth, I don’t think most LGTers would categorically describe the plan as a “beautiful” one that has simply been undermined by luck. Any reasonable fan would understand that luck and variance have most certainly played a role. But the core group of LGTers has both an appreciate for the approach along with a critical eye for mistakes. This is not a cheerleading squad here.
Fifth, if you think that LGTers are “unwilling to look at information that doesn’t fit with or contradicts their evaluation,” you haven’t spent any time here. Cause that’s just dumb. But go ahead and believe that cleveland.com regulars have an equal grasp on the truth.
by tabler84 on Jun 28, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
First, the point was that these comments are representative of a large portion of Cleveland fans. Part of the reason is to make us laugh while we’re all crying about the season; the other part is to demonstrate just how difficult it is for management to reason with the average fan. Some of it’s obvious, but really, I had no idea that so many fans think that Garko is getting screwed or that Shoppach is the King of Suck or that Mujica was an obvious star-in-waiting.
You did a good job in making me laugh. I mostly enjoyed your comments and the absurdity of the posts. I don’t agree that the cleveland.com comments are “representative” of the Indians’ fanbase anymore than posts on here are representative of the Indians’ fanbase. Cleveland.com draws a disproportionate number of angry, troll-type personalities, just like any internet forum does. I think it’s a big mistake to assume that since the Plain Dealer’s coverage of the Tribe caters to the “average” fan, the people leaving comments on that site are somehow representative of what the average fan thinks. I don’t think that the common fan has a particularly nuanced or well-developed understanding of how baseball works (and who can blame them?), and I do think that a lot of them are stupid blowhards, but not to the level of cleveland.com posters.
Second, there is something very wrong with fans who are palpably angry to the point of screaming or threats of violence. I have no idea why this isn’t obvious to you.
I don’t think that anyone is really to the point of violence. Once again, they’re internet trolls. They say outlandish, absurd things, often to get a rise out of other posters. Some of them might be nuts, yes. But there’s no reason to believe that a large proportion of the fanbase is on the verge of storming the Prog and waterboarding Mark Shapiro until he accedes to their demands.
Third, you’re wrong: Fans are upset that Sabathia left. They’re also upset that we suck, but independent of that, they’re furious about our decision to let Sabathia go.
Maybe. But you wouldn’t hear them complaining about Sabathia nearly as much if we had a competent pitching staff. Fans are always upset when they lose their star players, but those feelings can be mitigated by performance. When that performance doesn’t occur, they disproportionately attribute failure to the loss of said players.
Fourth, I don’t think most LGTers would categorically describe the plan as a "beautiful" one that has simply been undermined by luck. Any reasonable fan would understand that luck and variance have most certainly played a role. But the core group of LGTers has both an appreciate for the approach along with a critical eye for mistakes. This is not a cheerleading squad here.
Fifth, if you think that LGTers are "unwilling to look at information that doesn’t fit with or contradicts their evaluation," you haven’t spent any time here. Cause that’s just dumb. But go ahead and believe that cleveland.com regulars have an equal grasp on the truth.
This is basically true. I was probably making too much of a blanket statement/oversimplification with the last paragraph of my original post.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 28, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re right to say that internet forums attract trolls, but spend time in the stands at the Prog or chat up your casual fan friends. It sounds a heck of a lot like these boards, with perhaps less vitriol. And I absolutely agree that the internet allows trolls to say absurd or threatening things with no intent to back them up, but it’s downright scary that people are even willing to do that. I find it disturbing.
My experience with many fans has been that the Tribe could have won the WS in 2007, and many would have been cheering while muttering, “Would have swept it if we had just kept Thome!”
My experience with many fans has been that the Tribe could have won the WS in 2007, and many would have been cheering while muttering, "Would have swept it if we had just kept Thome!"
This is so credited. It’s unbelievable how many fans are determined to compare everything that happens now to those 90s Tribe teams. Of course, most of those fans stopped paying attention in 2001, and picked it back up in 2007, so they are understandably bewildered at the changes that occurred in the Indians, the Central Division, and baseball in general. Many are still trying to figure out why we got rid of Charlie Nagy.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jun 28, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Hello Cap’n and tabler84,
Yes, I know some people who compare all Indians teams to those in the 90s. They also complain about not keeping Manny, Thome, Vizquel, etc. One complained about not keeping Colon.
To me, it seems a lot of fair-weather or casual fans don’t have much appreciation for the Minor Leagues and the farm system of baseball, probably because it isn’t publicized that much. Additionally, college baseball isn’t followed by many as compared to college football and college basketball. As a result, when the NFL and NBA hold their drafts, most casual fans know the names and such (doesn’t mean that they are knowledgeable about the players), so they feel comfortable or good that “so-and-so” is going to improve the team because their GM picked this guy for their team.
Conversely, in baseball, for those who even watch the Draft, and it’s likely a lot of them don’t (I don’t because I don’t get MLB Channel since I have Dish, but I try to follow along online via MLB.com, BaseballAmerica.com, LGT and MinorLeagueBall, etc.), they’ll see the names and think, “Who the heck is that? The GM screwed up taking this guy because I’ve never heard of him – he can’t be any good.”
This is why I think many casual baseball fans aren’t enthused with the Minor Leagues and prospects – since they never hear of most of them, it doesn’t keep their interest and they automatically think that the GM and the front-office management are doing a poor job because they “obviously” made the wrong move by giving up the “known-name” player for the “no-name” prospect.
Fortunately, there are sites like LGT, the other SportsNation team sites, MinorLeagueBall, and a few other select ones that have contributing members who are much more aware of the Minor Leagues, the MLB Draft, and the process that is involved in improving a team via a team’s Minor League system, which, in the case of the Indians and other small and mid-market teams, is the only real way to substantially improve their ballclubs for any extended period of time.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
There is the additional conspicuous issue of trading a $5 million contract for a league-minimum one. The so-called casual fan, who doesn’t appear too casual in his outlook, sees the dollars first and foremost. It doesn’t matter if it makes sense—that’s what is apparent. And even a fan who’s half-paying attention can tell you most of these heralded young prospects don’t amount to what is hoped.
Nor do the high-priced veterans, though.
The complaints all come down to theory confirmation bias.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Rec, but… why would you do this to yourself?
I can barely bring myself to visit LGT at this point in the season.
Cleveland.com is raw masochism.
I disagree with the idea that this whole meme is played out. Much as it sucks — and it really, really does — I want to know what many fans are thinking. It behooves all of us to be aware and to try to come up with some way to combat it over the long-term. I have no good solutions at present.
The only solution is for the Indians to succeed. The casual fan responds well to W/L record and even moreso…playoff appearances. This is something we have no control over
I wonder, if the Indians ever do win a championship, how long of a free pass will the front office get by the fans? 5 years, 3 years, 1 year? How long will they be happy before they start clamoring for the GM and manager to be fired again if they revert back to losing? I just wonder how fickle and short-sighted these people are. Or will they be so happy to win a title that they will claim every move made by that front office is brilliant because the GM will be a “proven winner”?
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
There will still be disappointments and criticisms, but there won’t be the same bitterness.
Ask a long-time Red Sox fan. Bunch of mellow puppies now.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I think that would be true. Plus, in Cleveland’s case, they’ve had NO championships in any major sport for a generation, so I think that’s why the bitterness is probably even more vile than it was for Red Sox fans and even for Cubs fans (though that 100 year drought has its own “unique” vitriol for bitterness, since no other team has close to that duration of drought, which amounts to a century).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I can’t tell you how many times people write things like “I’m sick of OPS or OBP or alphabet soup whatever. DRIVE THE BALL”
People are missing the fact that Choo is one of the most complete, awesome packages we’ve had in years — and we had to trade a box of post-it notes to get him.
Joe Poz had a great blog post a couple weeks ago making fun of a Harold Reynolds post along these lines. Not only was the post stupid but nobody could figure out what he was trying to say in the first place.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 29, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Also! While they don’t appreciate Choo, they really, REALLY hate Shoppach. It’s like last year never happened and his ceiling is as roughly the worst catcher in history.
There’s an emotional, visceral connection to strikeouts (bad) and BA/HR/RBI (good). Maybe Chuck’s right, and it all dates back to Little League trauma.
This. If a players strikes out too much fans will claim he needs to start “choking up” and “hitting the ball the other way” like his Little League coach used to tell him to do. It all comes down to the fact that every fan thinks he could play the game better than most of the players if only he had the talent because he “knows” the game better.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 29, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I favor the explanation that his at-bats are visually unpleasing unless he homers.
by NickFantana on Jun 29, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
If I were a sig sorta person, I’d use this:
It’s worth paying more in cap-and-trade because BOAT, SAUCER, McRIB SANDWICH AM I RIGHT?
by Julie on Jun 29, 2009 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, that is pure freakin’ gold
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 29, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you do the ignorant fan a disservice by not including ignorant comments at Castro’s blog. In just the past few days, I have learned the following:
- We should evaluate the DeRosa trade by how it affects Garko’s playing time.
- Shapiro should be fired for the Aubrey trade. After all, we already gave them Guthrie for nothing.
- The Blake deal was a bad trade – look at Santana’s batting average this year.
- We should trade Vic because (a) he isn’t that great anyway because he hasn’t single-handedly won any games this year and (b) we can replace his production at 1B with LaPorta or Brown.
- Marte should play third (I’m thinking that one is an outlier).
by FredOx on Jun 29, 2009 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
3.The Blake deal was a bad trade – look at Santana’s batting average this year.
Oh. My. God.
by Buckeye Brad on Jun 29, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, if the DeRosa trade results in increased playing time for Garko, that would be a bad thing.
by peter m on Jun 29, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Egad – those comments make me smirk because they are very off-base.
1. DeRosa played a little 1B, but not that much. The greatest impacts from the DeRosa trade would be Cabrera playing permanently at SS, Valbuena playing permanently at 2B, and Peralta playing permanently at 3B. Additionally, LF will be manned by someone else (Francisco mostly, maybe a little Garko mixed-in, Choo when LF is more spacious than RF).
2. Aubrey has become an afterthought; the injuries he’s sustained have robbed him greatly of what made him a notable pick. What does Guthrie have to do with Aubrey, except that Aubrey was also traded to Baltimore?
3. Were people really expecting Santana to hit .339 or whatever his batting average was at High-A last year, part of that being in the California League, a noted hitters’ league? AA is usually a separator level in terms of talent and such – as mentioned, it seems many casual fans don’t know enough about the Minors to realize this. The fact that Santana is hitting .260-.280 in his first go-around, while playing very solid defense at a premium position, catcher, and being young for AA (22-YO, I think?), is what these fans should really consider before making such comments.
4. “Vic isn’t that great anyway because he hasn’t single-handedly won any games this year.” Last time I checked, baseball is a TEAM sport; that’s why certain players can be taken out of the equation with intentional walks. I don’t even know how many times Martinez has had a chance to win a game in the late innings, let alone the fact that that is not the best indicator for determining a player’s value. That reason shows that this person clearly does not understand baseball very well.
If LaPorta or Brown get to Victor’s level, we should consider ourselves fortunate, nevermind the fact that LaPorta and Brown don’t profile as catchers, which is all the more reason why Victor’s bat is even more valuable. LaPorta could be a premium hitter like Victor, but not right away. Brown is likely a very longshot for Victor’s production, and if he does provide production, it wouldn’t be right away either.
If Victor would get traded, it would not be for either reason (a) or (b) – it would be because they were overwhelmed by an offer for Victor that would help them become better in both 2010 and beyond, and the Indians felt like they wouldn’t be able to sign him long-term.
5. The time for Marte to capture 3B has pretty much come and gone. Besides that, if Peralta would be traded, he’d need to play regularly to continue to build value and show that he would be a viable piece for someone. Replacing Peralta with Marte (and where would Peralta play – back at SS, in the OF where he has never played before? Sitting him on the bench in favor of Marte is not an option) at 3B is not realistic.
Just my 2 cents – those comments were entertaining in a humorous sort of way – thanks for sharing them! :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Reason matters not to the average-obsessed.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t matter, because he pulls the ball too much, or something.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 3, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I just thank God/Allah/Zeus/Ra that the average fan doesn’t know the Tim Lincecum story, let alone the perspective from our front office.
Been gone for awhile – hey, I’m on Maui after all, and who the hell wants to watch this year’s baseball fiasco when you got wahines runnin’ around wearin’ next to nothing? – and was caught by the title of this little piece. What, exactly, have I – one of the unconverted – learned from this year’s debacle?
Here’s the obvious: despite the patina of cutting-edge methodology, and a fist full of GM/manager awards, the current Indian’s management is flawed – terribly flawed – like Shakespearian tragedy flawed. You cannot – in my opinion – be considered one of the best GMs in baseball when you construct a team using a middle of the pack payroll and – mid-season anyway – have the worst record in the American League. How on God’s Green Earth can you consistently built a self collapsing bullpen with major-league experienced pitchers? Just by dumb luck you should be able to find 1 or 2 guys who can get those last six outs without consistently giving up >3 runs? Hell Choo could do better than this Perez character.
And will we ever be able to draft and develop mid-level Major League talent? Yes, yes, I know "Victor Martinez" but we didn’t exactly draft him, but I’ll give you Victor – but who else? Garko? Laffey? Huff? Who the hell have the Indians drafted in the last decade that would be considered the fifth or sixth best player on this or any other team? Yeah, yeah, I know CC – but he doesn’t count, he’s a jackass, remember? But then again, he ain’t earnin’ his paycheck in NYC either.
If you haven’t gained an appreciation for the insensible aspects of baseball from this year’s experience, you never will.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Damned good to see you, Chuck.
You missed this. Would have liked to have had your thoughts in that thread.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Well, there was that one time when he implied Hafner knew he was hurt and unethically deceived management into handing a big contract to a player who could never produce again.
You’re still pissed about that, aren’t you? I haven’t re-read that little exchange but I know what I meant to say. That is: Hafner knew/knows he had something messing with his swing. Injury, head issue, increased reaction time – something. And no, I didn’t expect him to run to management and say,“hey, I’m getting old and can’t reach that outside fastball any more, I don’t think that you should sign me for all that money for all that time” But I still think that he could/can see his skills decreasing.
That’s all water under the bridge. We need to get united – after all, we got a whole goddam baseball club to re-build.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Chuck,
Actually, I’m not pissed about that at all. It’s just that you’ve had so much to gloat about that I needed to find something. It’s cool.
This season has been instructive, but I’m not convinced the lessons are all that clear yet. Jay sort of assumed in a previous post that we’ve seen enough of a sample to know that there is something wrong in the approach. I’d ask if it’s possible that we truly have had a run of poor variance for the better part of a decade. Not saying I believe it, but I’m open to it.
Anyway, there’s a lot of work to do, yes. And at the moment I’d support seeing you ascend to the front office.
Yer right – it’s all cool. And believe it or not, I’m not one to gloat. I get it, we’re Indians fans. This was our lot in life for decades: years of mediocrity with an occasional glimmer of hope followed by shattered dreams and another decade in the Wilderness. Then came the Miracle of the 90s. We were all just too, too jaded to get caught up in all the Indians hooha and then: Holy Crap! We’re GOOD and I mean REALLY, REALLY GOOD! Not Andy Thorton – Toby Harrah good but CRUSH-THE-GODDAM-YANKEES-INTO-SAWDUST GOOD!! Yeah we got our hearts broke in a coupla WSs, but hey, we got a new guy with the Magic Formula – it’s all about Science, and Numbers – forget that ol’ Mumbo Jumbo about, “scouting” and “experience” and " competitive spirit". The numbers don’t lie, all ya gotta do is collect enough of ‘em, put ’em in a pot, add a coupla Excel macros and Voila! we’ll be chuggin’ out WS Championships like Chevy makes Impalas.
Sure is seductive – made us feel like we could out think the opposition. Just hasn’t work out that way – yet.
I finally read Jay’s piece on what’s wrong with the Indians FO. Like most Indian writers his best work is in reflecting on the vagaries of Fate and Hubris – more Homer than An die Freude . He got a lot right. But let me add one caveat: you’re never as good as you look when you’re winning and never as bad as when you’re losing. There’s a lot that’s right with this front office. Right now I attribute many of their weaknesses to the Arrogance of Youth. Shapiro and Antonnetti have had their noses bloodied pretty good – they’ll learn from this. If Dolan let’s ‘em continue on they may even get us back in the WS. I just wish they had Hank Peters doing their talent evaluation.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Antonetti basically acknowledged that the Indians felt that if his 2007 performance dip wasn’t a fluke, then it was mostly likely a head issue, as a man who had started the season by taking his agent’s advice to turn down a $50 million deal.
Beyond that, there is literally zero evidence that he was injured at that time, let alone that he thought he was injured. His performance dip was significant, but not nearly as significant as you’d expect from an injury — not nearly approaching what we saw from him in 2008, when he actually was injured.
This detail must not be overlooked or smeared over. Zero evidence of an injury in 2007.
You were right to say that we’d not see Hafner hitting between 600 and 900 OPS. Antonetti was right to say that if Hafner was healthy, he would still be a very good hitter. That’s the sum total of anyone being correct about anything in this matter.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
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- Photo: Padres fan regrets letting mother capture moment with Trevor Hoffman
- Marlins agree to unretire No. 5 for Logan Morrison, who will honor his father’s favorite player
- Weatherman Derek Holland does Dallas TV
- Ask Alex: Will Julio Teheran or Matt Moore win rookie of the year?
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
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