Game 78: White Sox 6, Indians 3
by Ryan on Jun 29, 2009 11:11 PM EDT
in Game Recaps
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PrintThis was a well-pitched game until the ninth, when Chris Perez entered the game. This was Perez's first game with the Indians, and a 2-0 deficit seemed as good an opportunity as any to get him into a game. I'm sure the coaching staff figured on him being amped up, since the 24-year-old would be trying to prove himself to his new team, but I don't think anyone foresaw this (the bolded text is my addition):
- A. Ramirez hit by pitch (a breaking ball right on the left earflap) - J. Nix hit for J. Dye - J. Nix stole second - J. Dye hit by pitch (on the hand as another pitch went up and in.)
(coaching visit, all the infielders were there to try to calm him down)
- J. Thome walked, J. Nix to third, J. Dye to second - P. Konerko popped out to second - A.J. Pierzynski grounded into fielder's choice, J. Nix scored, J. Dye to third, J. Thome out at second (probably would have been out of the inning had he bothered to cover first) - C. Getz doubled to deep center, J. Dye scored, A.J. Pierzynski to third (high fastball) - A.J. Pierzynski scored, C. Getz to third on wild pitch - G. Beckham singled to center, C. Getz scored - J. Veras relieved C. Perez
Looking back at it an hour later, it seems more comical than frustrating. He gave up four runs, but gosh darn it, he did it with style.
Up to this point, the Indians were technically still in the game, but after Perez got done with things, the White Sox lead was 6-0, and instead of Bobby Jenks coming out, Matt Thornton came on to finish things off. The Indians scored three runs, but I'm not going to pretend that those three runs would have been scored off of Jenks.
Eric Wedge didn't get to see the ninth-inning fun, for he'd been run in the bottom of the seventh after arguing a close call. With the bases loaded, Ryan Garko hit a dribbler down the line, which was picked up by pitcher Gavin Floyd right on the line. The home plate umpire originally called the ball foul, but after conultation with rest of the crew, the call was reversed, with Garko being called out and the inning over with. Wedge naturally went ballistic, and you knew as soon as the crew chief made the out signal with his fist that Wedge was going to get tossed. I think the right call was made, but you could understand why Wedge was ticked off.
Only three more games until the half-way point. And then 81 games until the end of this monstrosity.
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Carl Pavano | .096 | Grady Sizemore | -.199 |
| Chris Gimenez | .062 | Ryan Garko | -.196 |
| Shin-Soo Choo | .033 | Luis Valbuena | -.094 |
273 comments
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2 recs |
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Comments
That fangraph should be the official icon of Indians Baseball 2009
by Logodaedalus on Jun 29, 2009 11:18 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
No way. The fangraph that most suits this season is one in which we held an absurdly high win% — say, 102% in the 8th inning — and then lost by 4.
Yeah, that’s better as a fan graph. I just think this steady, sad decline is a good representation of the entire season.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
That assumes that we can find another team who will want a plodding first baseman with marginal power and marginal fielding skills and barely acceptable OBP skills.
by woodsmeister on Jun 30, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
I think we could pull a AA level starter from the Mets for Garko…but I don’t know if they even have anything worth taking. Haven’t they traded everything away in their system the last couple of years? Pavano…same thing. He hasn’t been good enough to deserve major league ready talent. But possibly a AAA & a AA pitcher for him…I’d say pull the trigger.
by MooneysRebellion on Jun 30, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
But I’m not sure there is anybody serious enough at this point to take either of them
by MooneysRebellion on Jun 30, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
In fairness, CReyes threw two strike-3 pitches to Jimmy that didn’t get called. He gets that K, and AJ’s grounder would’ve been the last out.
Not that it excuses hitting two guys, or the subsequent meltdown. I’m just saying, in an alternate universe, that wasn’t an atrocious inning. In any event, good gravy, what an arm. That slider is horrifying.
by fleerdon on Jun 29, 2009 11:24 PM EDT reply actions
In fairness, CReyes threw two strike-3 pitches to Jimmy that didn’t get called. He gets that K, and AJ’s grounder would’ve been the last out.
Just came across this on the DVR. Gotta disagree. The first pitch was a backdoor slider that was off the plate by 2-3 inches, and while the 3-2 slider was in the rule-book strike zone, it’s never actually called a strike.
It was barely above his waist, if that isn’t a strike, then I am quitting baseball. The batter hunched even lower to make it appear higher than it was
we don’t, i just liked the sound of it. “CRAY-yez.” like, “Oh, you so CRAY-yez-ee.”
by fleerdon on Jun 30, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Now that is a debut!
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
I know they’re trying to add guys with stuff to the bullpen, but Perez has never established that he can consistently throw strikes. In the majors, in the minors, or even in college. I looked at his overall history today and it was worse that I thought it was. He walked 6 guys for every 9 innings pitched in the minors. Great stuff, but he’ll cause a lot of gray hairs unless he’s able to calm down his delivery a touch.
If you look at his Game Logs
You will see that his walks come in bunches. So he is either on or he is hitting people. On the good side though. I bet guys won’t crowd the plate on him.
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 29, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Perez thought the AL was like Prison
First day in. Get in a fight
Stat Whore
by FlimtotheFlam on Jun 29, 2009 11:56 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
It feels a lot like starting the 90 minutes of a Wenders movie, only even more depressing.
--
Force quit and move to trash.
We’re gonna be eliminated by August 1, but still finish 1 game out of the wildcard race. Just watch.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
Sounds about right. We’ll have a strong second-half record and we’ll all say things like, “With Hector Rondon playing third base and Jeremy Sowers closing, we had the best record in the AL for the last 60 games! Imagine what will happen when we get our normal studs back!”
by tabler84 on Jun 30, 2009 5:45 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
“These gus never quit on Eric. The second half exemplifies why we know he’s the right man to manage the Cleveland Indians.”
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 8:02 AM EDT up reply actions
And a first half dumb ass. Too bad it takes a whole season to win A) Division crown B) 2 playoff series and C) a WS
by MooneysRebellion on Jun 30, 2009 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
as does the playoffs series.
and to be perfectly accurate, it rarely takes a whole season to win the division crown. more often than not, the division’s clinched before game #162.
so he’s 0-3.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
And while you can’t suck this much and win a championship, you can have less-than-stellar starts and still win. At the end of May 2008, the Marlins were in first place. At the end of May 2007, the class of the NL was the Mets (34-18), and we all know how that ended.
I understand the criticism…what I’m saying is Wedge is a dumb ass…and it takes the season first to make it to the playoffs, the playoffs to make it to the WS, and winning to WS to be champions. I know you can start slow and still win, but starting slow and playing like crap into the all star break are two different things.
by MooneysRebellion on Jun 30, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I hear this is what everyone says when they’re watching the new Transformers movie. Cleveland Indians 2009: Slightly less worse than Transformers, only with no Megan Fox!
UUUUuuuggghhhhh the new Transfomers movie is SO HORRENDOUSLY BAD ARGH
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 30, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Same thought I had when I read this.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 30, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
The normally punchless A’s knocked aroung Rick Porcello tonight, so the Indians may not lose another game in the standings.
By losing, we increased our lead in the race for not-14th place, however.
by FredOx on Jun 30, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My goal is a finish that allows us a top-3 overall pick next year, preferably top 2. The Nationals are probably uncatchably awful, but I have hope that we can out-suck the D-Backs.
by fleerdon on Jun 30, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Could Shapiro and Beane exchange jobs? Both teams might end up being better balanced, rather than being AL cellar dwellers, with opposite strengths and weaknesses.
Second that. I can still enjoy a poorly pitched baseball game. Just bring some work, ignore the opposing team’s half innings. But I watch for Indians’ extra-base hits, or at least the threat of them.
by fleerdon on Jun 30, 2009 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Me too
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 30, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Also – anyone else beginning to get the thought that when they built Jacobs Field (especially the area around the home bullpen), they moved the headstones but not the bodies?
by APV on Jun 30, 2009 1:42 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Have these awesome comments by Castro been posted here yet?
The only thing that puzzles me about the Mark DeRosa trade is the fact that it didn’t involve the promotion of Matt LaPorta (.302 average and .898 OPS at Triple-A Columbus).On Sunday, the Indians went with a lineup that included Ryan Garko in left field. This lineup should never, ever happen again.
The Garko-in-the-outfield experiment began as a pre-Spring Training source of amusement that I, for one, never expected to see the light of day (or, more accurately, the regular season). When Garko dropped that ball Sunday, I hope the message got through that first basemen should not be moonlighting as corner outfielders in the Major Leagues.
Ben Francisco isn’t the answer in the corner outfield, either. He’s batting .225 with a .659 OPS this season. He’s batting .133 with three RBIs in his last 22 games and is currently 3-for-35 and 0-for-10. Last season, he hit .251 with a .745 OPS from July 1 on. Francisco is a nice guy and a hard worker, but the results speak for themselves. He should be used to spell Grady Sizemore and nothing more.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
I am certain the front office is aware of this, they just don’t really feel the need to rush anything at this point
And this from a guy who needs to get quotes from Garko and Frisco.
by dgcambridge on Jun 30, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
- J. Nix hit for J. Dye
- J. Nix stole second
- J. Dye hit by pitch
Can someone explain this series to me? How does Nix get to steal before he’s reached base? How does Dye get hit when he’s already been pinch hit for?
Perez is THAT awesome. His slider rips straight through the space-time continuum.
by gte619n on Jun 30, 2009 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
The first line should be J. Nix hit for A. Ramirez (who actually did hit, but was HBP and did not make the trip down to first base).
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
So shouldn’t that be “J. Nix pinch ran for A. Ramirez”? (he did not GET hit for A. Ramirez).
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
You would think so, and I don’t know the intricacies of box-score construction, but Ramirez never even walked down to first base. So either it’s some weird rule that gives Nix the PA and credit for a HBP, or the play-by-play this was pulled from screwed up in two aspects.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
A thought just occurred to me. We now have Carlos Santana in the minors and Chris Perez in the bullpen. It’s the all-Grammy-winning-guitarist battery.
Just don’t say something like that to Santana.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 30, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I see some Eric Plunk in the picture above (any puns related to last night’s pants-crapping are completely unintended).
by JulioBernazard on Jun 30, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Greg Swindell wants his box score back!
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 30, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
We’re getting close to the point that we need to hire some kind of bullpen scout guru, and take all bullpen decisions out of Shap’s hands. One game, I know…..one game.
I tend to let one game influence me too much. I went to a Cards game a couple weeks ago and he just blew away the comp in his 1 inning. I think 2 strikeouts and a weak grounder. I was convinced based off of that one inning
Silly question … are AL baseballs different from the NL variety?
This is no excuse, but Perez looked like he had real problems with grip last night.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 30, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Let’s be honest, you could pull reliever names out of a hat and come up with a better bullpen than we’ve had the last four seasons. No exaggeration, you really could.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
8 relievers from 2008 picked out of an electronic hat: Jeff Bennett, Dave Weathers, LaTroy Hawkins, Denny Bautista, Heath Bell, Scot Shields, Eddie Guardado and Joel Peralta. ERA 3.97.
This could be fun. How’d you do that?
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 30, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Nice.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok, here we go…
Jesse Crain
Matt Thornton
Huston Street
Jeff Samardzija
Scott Eyre
Bobby Jenks
Kyle McClellan
Neal Cotts
SIGN ME UP!! This would be awesome to have.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
I’ll take a spin.
David Weathers
Brian Falkenborg
Ryan Madson
Gary Glover
Arthur Rhodes
Jonathan Papelbon
Al Reyes
Matt Lindstrom
If It weren’t for Papelbon, I might have succeeded in somehow getting a worse bullpen
My Random ’Pen:
Boone Logan
Carlos Marmol
Billy Sadler
Scott Shields
Joe Biemel
Jamey Wright
Tony Pena
Cesar Jimenez
Those 8 guys: 230 R in 477.1 IP
2008 Indians Bullpen: 262 R in 445.1 IP
Mine:
Adam Russell
Garrett Mock
Boone Logan
Clay Condrey
Brian Stokes
Arthur Rhodes
Jonathan Papelbon
Brian Fuentes
Note that the random number generator is smarter than the Indians front office: so far, it has chosen NO Indians relievers. And, it has chosen Papelbon twice.
Chad Bradford
Chad Cordero
Francisco Cordero
Gary Majewski
Gary Glover
Crispin Glover
Bill Murray
Kevin Bacon
I think I did it wrong…
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
And Crispins. There’s only one but that name is so awesome I think it deserves mentioning.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
He’s really the rock that the rest of the bullpen is built on.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s our density.
Juan Salas: Smartest man in baseball?
by emd2k3 on Jun 30, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, yeah, but that’s basically what we’ve done.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 30, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Well yeah, you’d expect that to yield an average bullpen, right?
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d expect the average result to be an average bullpen.
I would not expect virtually every result to be an average bullpen, but I would expect nearly every result to be better than ours.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Yeah, exactly. On average, you’d get an average bullpen. Infrequently you’d get a top-notch bullpen, and infrequently you’d get a…bottom-notch…bullpen. Ours is a couple notches below the bottom…
It’s a catchy line, but it’s not actually a very strong claim.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Now if the hat contained position players as well…. You might still be better off.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Not necessarily. I imagine the distribution of bullpen talent any given season is skewed to guys who perform poorly for a portion of the season. So I would guess that you’d get a slightly below average bullpen.
i agree, but in saying “appearing in 20+ games” you’re eliminating both A) old guys who try, fail, and get cut, and B) young guys who try, fail, and get sent back down. that might lessen the numerical advantage of the “suck” side of average.
Yeah… this is true if the hat contains everyone who’s appeared at all in a season, and you’re averaging over an entire season. But that’s because then you’re drawing from the hat in an unweighted way, but you’re defining “average” in a weighted way. So it’s not a direct parallel. If you use a random number generator that weights guys according to their number of innings pitched, then you get back to average.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Duh. So randomly injure half of the pen the random generator selects and apportion a share of innings to sub-replacement farmhands.
Probably still comes out better than what we have.
This year, almost any scheme you could devise would produce a better result than we have.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
The claim is that by picking relievers entirely at random, you are basically guaranteed to do better than the Indians front office has done. That whatever it is that they do, it comes out worse than picking at random.
You don’t think that’s a strong claim?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
But, of course, you can’t pick at random. You have no shot at Papelbon or Fuentes or Marmol or Shields or Rhodes, etc. Take 40 relievers off the table and see what you get.
(a) It would still be better.
(b) We did get Kerry Wood.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Well, it would be if the pen were this bad every year for several years in a row… but over the last five years, the Indians had a great pen once (2005), an above average pen once (2007), really bad pens twice (2006 and 2008), and the Worst Bullpen in the History of the Game once. That doesn’t strike me as enough worse than random to say “you are basically guaranteed to do better than the Indians front office has done”.
Plus, the Indians aren’t in a position to sample completely at random anyway, because of all those elite guys that are out of their budget.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions
OK, but this was a playoff team in 2007, and had a “collapse” in 2008 largely based on a horrible bullpen. So to see one this bad (see the above exercise) again in 2009, the same weakness, on a team intended to contend, is remarkable. And as Jay says above, we did pay for an elite guy.
I don’t know if it’s remarkable. Statistically, I mean — it’s obviously worth a remark. But you would certainly expect some teams to have bad or even really bad bullpens two years in a row, simply by chance. Not saying there aren’t factors other than bad luck at play, but even if that’s all it were, this would happen sometimes.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps the moment has passed for this team. The best chance might have been 2005, but if this team as it is presently constructed doesn’t return to glory in 2010, you could say the bullpen killed the team between 2006-2010. This means the era of Victor. Sabathia, Hafner, Peralta, Lee, Sizemore et al. was done in by Roberto Hernandez et al. That’s all she wrote.
Sad but true.
Two quick points: Sizemore (and JP?) will at least be part of the next “era.” And in 2007, it wasn’t the bullpen that stopped us in the end, but the top of the rotation.
Maybe Grady and Jhonny will be part of the next version, though it depends how soon the new version starts. I agree that 2007 was C.C. and Fausto, biut the offense might have a share in that as well. Beside, you might expect the starters to have a down year. It just so happened it was in the one season other things were doing well. Remember, in 2007, one more win and the Indians had home-field advantage against the Red Sox.
Isn’t this the equivalent of infinite monkeys typing? Given a sufficient number of draws, you’d eventually get the Shakespeare of bullpens? I’d imagine otherwise the universe of bullpens drawn randomly would look a lot like a bell curve (Jay’s average result = average bullpen).
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
It would look exactly like a bell curve, in fact, if you had an infinite number of draws.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Did somebody say my name?
Look, this bullpen is not my fault, despite the circumstantial evidence.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jun 30, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I figured you’d pipe up at some point after I posted that.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Think of it this way. The sky is the limit now for Perez. He can’t get any worse than that. Hey, maybe that will be his worst outing ever and he’s gotten it out of the way now…? He’s still got potential, but he’s been thrown into a very contagious bullpen scene. Let’s start by getting rid of the bullpen coach and see what happens.
by MooneysRebellion on Jun 30, 2009 9:40 AM EDT reply actions
Pavano and Huff already tried this plan.
by dgcambridge on Jun 30, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
This is truly unreal. Is it too late for me to ask for all of my positive comments about this trade to be deleted?
I feel sheepish for being positive about the trade at first. I am instead going to stick with my theme of “trade evaluation is incomplete until the PTBNL is named”
every player has bad outings. Let’s hope this was his worst, and like you said, let’s wait to see who else we get….as it seems the ptbnl, in shap’s case usually ends up being the better player anyway.
by MooneysRebellion on Jun 30, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Right now, absolutely. Over the course of their early MLB careers, it could go either way.
by dgcambridge on Jun 30, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if you ascribe to random chance. There is no indication now that Brantley will be a better than LaPorta.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
Of course there’s “chance” involved, or uncertainty.
But Brantley’s 28 months younger, with a better batting eye and defense/speed. Obviously he needs to develop some power to compete with LaPorta, but he’s at an age where that can happen.
Look, with Brantley’s edge on LaPorta in defense and discipline, LaPorta has to outslug him by plenty to be better. LaPorta is doing so now, but isn’t a sure bet to continue.
I think LaPorta is a pretty solid bet to outslug Brantley substantially, indefinitely.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 1, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t want to say yes, because I feel like that would be betting against Brantley.
Obviously most scouts and analysts think so, because LaPorta is rated substantially higher than Brantley by literally everyone, and they’ve been playing at the same levels. I’ll just say that that all depends on how much power Brantley eventually develops. If he can’t eventually hit 15-20 HR, then LaPorta is going to end up being more valuable.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 1, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I hear what you’re saying. This discussion made me go back and reread the whole “net” thread. Interesting stuff.
You people evaluating this trade after one appearance make me incredulous. Sack up and quit acting like 7 year olds. Christ almighty. I’m a little embarrassed that this is LGT.
On May 26th, 2008, Grady Sizemore went 0-6 with 2 Ks. I know it was one game but we probably should have canceled the season after that and blew up the stadium.
Steel Nick
i would like that we figure out all your buttons and then you become LGT’s Ozzie Guillen. Only you would insist on using words like ‘indubitably.’
Cancelling 2008 at that juncture would’ve probably been for the best.
by supermarioelia on Jun 30, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/06/30/SP3818FPG4.DTL&feed=rss.giants
TRADE CHATTER: Giants scout Paul Turco was seen at Monday’s White Sox-Indians game, possibly looking at Cleveland first baseman Victor Martinez, whom the Giants are thought to admire.
Hat tip to someone over at TCF
I’m pretty sure they view Cain as untouchable.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m pretty sure this quote is just a bit of idle speculation, but in any case Cain isn’t untouchable if Martinez is in play. He better not be.
Steel Nick
Unless Bavasi is running that club, Cain should be untouchable, even for Victor. They have a starting staff built for a run of several years (Lincecum (barely 25), Cain (24), Sanchez (26), bolstered by a couple of veterans (Zito, Unit) at a time when pitching depth is unusually thin. Vic is an offensive machine who plays an important position, but is 30 already and there are bats out there who can bolster their offense (though not as much as he would) for a lower price.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
As previous discussions have demonstrated, Sanchez is no lock. And the Big Unit will be retiring this year most likely as he achieved his goal, a 300th win.. They do have Lowry as well, but he seems simliar to Sowers.
Now they do have an excellent prospect in Bumgarner, but I seriously doubt they’d trade both Cain and Bumgarner, I can’t see Shapiro dealing Vic for all minor leagers. There would have to be a 25 man guy with high upside. That seems to me to be Cain as Lincecum is untouchable (as he should be). I think Cain also has one more season under his belt as well. So he’s arb eligible. Not a usual Shapiro target, but who knows.
Sanchez couldn’t even stay in his own rotation. In the NL West!
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jun 30, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s fascinating to read the other end of this discussion. They’re not talking about Bumgarner, much less Cain. I like the poster who says he fears Shapiro, though.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Some of those posters get the no subject line thing.
Some of them are being ridiculous. Bengie for Martinez straight up. Who accepts that deal?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Sabean does, of course. I find reading discussions of trades from the perspective of fans of the other team headache-inducing. Who are the players behind those nicknames?
I don’t know. It’s like another language really. I liked the person who flipped about the nickname V-Mart.
Obviously their GM would be fine with it. I’m fairly sure if that were suggested Shapiro would probably just laugh at him. I would. I love the Molinas as much as the next person but that’s ridiculous.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
My favorite part was the discussion of the all-catcher lineup, which led to the suggestion they get Garko as a throw-in.
Here’s a top 5 list for the Giants. #5 is who they keep calling Big V or AngVill or AnVil. He’s evidently a very young, huge, immobile guy with tons of power potential and Abner Abreu plate discipline.
Obvious talent potential, but that does not seem like the target.
Alright, let’s see. If the only offer was Victor Martinez for Alderson and Villalona (see above):
A) Laugh and hang up
B) Take it only if another lower prospect or two was thrown-in
C) Take it, even if you couldn’t get anything more?
For me, I’d want guys closer to the majors than high A if we’re trading Victor this year. If we don’t get anyone who can contribute in 2010, that seems like too much of a hit. Because I really think we have a shot next year — although, of course, I said that before 2008 and this year. But I feel better about it than I did this year, anyway.
by Logodaedalus on Jun 30, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions
This. We have guys at Alderson’s level with similar upside, and about the same arrival date (which looks to be late 2010 at the earliest). We really don’t need Villalona or another catching prospect, either.
Bumgarner or bust, I guess.
Bumgarner would be a great get in general…. and it would raise the threshold of 2010 chances below which I’d be willing to do it, but, man, I don’t even know if I could make that trade. He’s still only in single A, which is relevant both for timeline and for the size of the confidence interval around his projections…
by Logodaedalus on Jul 1, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
This strikes me as gossip-column speculation. They don’t actually know which player(s) the scout was watching, or even which TEAM (the White Sox have tried to unload some of their bigger contracts, reportedly – maybe the Giants want Dye, for example). They don’t actually know that the Indians would be willing to trade Martinez (except in the “if you give me Lincecum and three top minor leaguers” sense of “willing”). And, it’s hard to imagine which major-league ready talent the Giants could put together in an offer that would satisfy the Indians and would not harm the Giants’ chances of making the playoffs. The one true thing in the story is that there was a Giants scout at the game (although who saw him is also not made clear).
White Sox 4 games back.
Almost the beginning of July.
Yep, that’s about when they usually throw in the towel.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
It doesn’t even say that the Giants are considering trying to acquire him. It’s just that they admire him. Let’s not read into it. It’s probably very common: “Hey [GM], I just finished scouting all the players on the list, mind if stop by Cleveland to watch Victor?”
by dgcambridge on Jun 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought this too. I would think a lot of team admire Victor but whether or not that means they are willing to give up someone big to get him is another story. because they would have to give up someone (more likely someones) huge.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jun 30, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jun 30, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe that was the last time Fausto hit his target.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 1, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It was written that the scout was looking at Dye and V-Mart.
Makes sense really, their real target may be Dye … but if the scout is there, you might as well focus on Martinez as well, in case he hits the market.
I don’t see this as a sign Martinez is being traded, just that he’s being scouted.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 30, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Everytime I see how bad this bullpen is, I just have to laugh.
And for some reason, I keep conflating the Tribe bullpen with the Browns and their staph infections. Weird.
Despite what people would have you believe, the staph infection is not a problem confined to the Browns.
If I were Wedge, I would be in jail by now for punching my relievers in the throat.
He has shown amazing restraint.
Juan Salas: Smartest man in baseball?
by emd2k3 on Jun 30, 2009 11:34 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I happen to currently be eating one. I share your banana appreciation. Lots of potassium.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jun 30, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
That or Sherwood Forest, depending on which movie you want to quote.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jun 30, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
A little bit of contextual information for the DeRosa trade. Yanks acquire Hinske for two minor leaguers, both 23, both still in A ball. Hinske is not the player DeRosa is, by any stretch, but he can be a useful guy. But, DeRosa yields quite a bit more — major league reliever plus, supposedly, a high-quality prospect.
Plus, Pirates ate some salary … Indians did not.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 30, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
How weird is that, Pirates eating salary for the Yankees?
Ticket revenues must be a disaster over there.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Maybe they got a second A-ball player for the effort … definitely strange.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 30, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
They’re also about the trade Nyjer Morgan for Lastings Milledge.
That’s gotta be a win for Neal, right?
Steel Nick
It is if Milledge doesn’t go all Bradley on his butt.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 30, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
The Nationals, who can’t stock up on enough outfielders already, just traded for a guy who is about to turn 30, sucks, and leads the league in caught stealing.
I think the Pirates win either way. The Nationals are trying to secure that #1 pick.
Steel Nick
Yeah, it’s a weird trade for the Nats any way you look at it.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 30, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we’re going about this all wrong. We should really be treating the rest of the season like comedy instead of wringing our hands and pulling our hair.
Maybe this is one of the things that I never understood about the Cleveland.com crowd. We’ve been out of this thing for a while. What are you still angry enough to type in all caps about?
Steel Nick
I’ve said before … it doesn’t really make me mad anymore …. I’m just resigned to the fact that this is a bad team.
I’m a little angry that the Dolans haven’t made a move yet, but you’re right, the Perez outing last night is laughable if you look at the team from the comedy context.
by FallsTribeFan on Jun 30, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Tragedy is a bad at bat by Vic. Comedy is the Yankees falling down a manhole and dying.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jun 30, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Someone mentioned John Rocker in another thread:
Age ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 K/9 SO/BB
Rocker, John 23 195 1.158 5.2 0.9 5.2 9.9 1.91
Perez, Chris 22 123 1.344 7.3 1.1 4.8 9.1 1.91
Use the <pre> and </pre> tags, like this:
Age ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 K/9 SO/BB
Rocker, John 23 195 1.158 5.2 0.9 5.2 9.9 1.91
Perez, Chris 22 123 1.344 7.3 1.1 4.8 9.1 1.91
Age ERA+ WHIP H/9 HR/9 BB/9 K/9 SO/BB Rocker, John 23 195 1.158 5.2 0.9 5.2 9.9 1.91 Perez, Chris 22 123 1.344 7.3 1.1 4.8 9.1 1.91
I didn’t want to make a fan post out of this, since it’s not a big deal, so I’m putting it here. I wondered if anyone knew what Tony Sipp’s minor league righty/lefty splits are — I haven’t had much luck finding them. I was struck, last night, by how much more tentative he was against the one right-handed batter he faced — he was more aggressive against the three lefties (walked the righty, got the other three out). His major league split this year, which doesn’t cover many innings obviously, indicates he has a much higher walk rate against righties than lefties. Otherwise, BA against isn’t much different. I wonder if this is just a function of the small sample size, or if this is something he’s been doing in the past. He looked quite good in his last couple of outings, so I’m wondering whether the team can use him as a set up guy, not just a situational lefty.
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