Game 79: White Sox 11, Indians 4 (7 innings)
by afh4 on Jun 30, 2009 11:35 PM EDT
in Game Recaps
Email
Print
After an extended rain delay, the game today was finally called final with the Indians suffering yet another loss. Today's loss was out of the ordinary in that it involved an abysmal Cliff Lee performance. For whatever reason, Lee just didn't have it today and managed to to give up 7 runs on 11 hits over just 3 innings. He was relieved by this Mike Gosling character who has proven that he is in no way a better option than Greg Aquino, Vinnie Chulk, or any other waiver wire fodder the Indians can get their hands on.
The slow death march of 2009 continues and it's hard to know what to focus on; Lee wasn't ever going to repeat as Cy Young winner on a team like this but his performance ballooned his ERA to 3.39, nearly a half point higher than it was coming into today. On top of that, Lee's record is now 4-7 which means nothing except that he'll probably get even less votes, if you're into that sort of thing.
The Indians did get a homerun out of Travis Hafner today, who now has 8 jacks in 107 ABs. That works out to one round tripper for every 13.375 at-bats. For reference, in 2006 he hit one out every 10.8 at-bats, in 2005 he did it every 14.72 at bats and in 2008 it was every 39.6. Pronk is even ahead of his 2007 pace, when the number was 22.7. In an extremely surreal season, it's become clear that Hafner's power is still present and accounted for when he's healthy which can only be seen as a good thing.
The Indians will play again tomorrow, with Jeremy Sowers facing Jose Contreras at 7:05.
93 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
The return of Pronk’s power is one of the few silver linings of this season. At least it’s good to have him back. Just another block to build undiminished hopes for “next season”.
One last note – at what point do we begin to think that the team might have given up on Wedge? Just because Shapiro & Co. say they haven’t, doesn’t meant they haven’t.
I just wanted to believe.
Eh. I don’t get the whole “baseball teams giving up on a manager.”
I get it with basketball-guys get listless, teams obviously stop playing hard. In baseball, your job is individual and requires intense bursts of concentration. I don’t buy that JP suddenly isn’t trying to get a hit or isn’t ranging to his left because he’s pissed off. It’s not a game that requires a ton of physical effort.
I disagree. That is all.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 1, 2009 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Think of it this way: When they’re winning, do you ever once find yourself thinking, “They’re playing hard for Wedge tonight?”
by fleerdon on Jul 1, 2009 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions
“I don’t remember yesterday. Today, it rained.”
by fleerdon on Jul 1, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, every time they do a tease in the ninth after another bullpen implosion, I think “how do they keep getting up for this s***?” I’m pretty sure it’s not stat-padding.
I don’t know if it’s Wedge or if it’s self-motivation, but only one of those things is under threat of removal, so I guess we’ll see.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 1, 2009 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Fall just short for the gipper.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 1, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I too am impressed by this sometimes — but maybe we shouldn’t be.
After all, this is basically like valuing an outfielder for his quickness at tracking down the ball … after he drops it.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 1, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
But the ability & desire to maintain that high level of concentration, that’s what I think people are talking about. Knowing that this is just one more in a seemingly endless string of losses running off into the future and back into the past, how do you keep that intense focus going?
I think it’s pretty clear that, like Cougar in Top Gun, these guys have lost their edge and turned in their wings. And we need a new manager to turn them back into Mavericks.
If this is true (which it might be, I have no idea) you’d think the number of meltdown season we’ve had in recent years (‘06, ’08, ’09) would be able to serve as a crucible through which to identify truly mentally tough players who are self-motivated and maybe even use those guy’s psychological profiles to find more of them. So far, we’ve found:
Victor Martinez
Shin-Soo Choo
I think that might be it.
Asdrubal might be in the process of joining that club.
But, I continue to think the problem is not concentration (for most of the team, anyway). It’s quality (and injuries). They can concentrate all they like, but it’s hard to win when we’re regularly trotting out mediocre and/or inexperienced guys at 2B, 1B, LF and often at C and when we have pitching as bad as we have had.
I think Jay’s sniffing around lately regarding defense is spot on. I think if we had decent metrics, we might know that the Indians have had truly horrible defenses over the last 6 or so years and that this defensive deficiency has consistently deflated the team from a psychological standpoint.
I mean, even our “good” defenders, like Grady, Choo and Cabrera, aren’t really elite. Choo is prone to boneheaded plays, at least in the early part of this, and Grady and Cabrera are good but not spectacular. And, on the flip side, we’ve got guys like Victor, Garko, Dellucci, etc who’ve sucked up ABs.
I went to the Yankees-M’s game last night and got to see our former boy, Franklin patrol center. I have to say it was impressive to watch, he tracked down 3 line drive/fly balls that I thought were going for doubles. Watching him out there couldn’t help but make me think that we might have messed up in letting him go. I am a huge Valbuena fan too, but Gutierrez is good
by Roger Dorn on Jul 1, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
we might know that the Indians have had truly horrible defenses over the last 6 or so years and that this defensive deficiency has consistently deflated the team from a psychological standpoint.
This is one of the keys to the puzzle. It hurts all the more so with so many teams focusing on D around the league.
And your assessment of our players’ D seems spot on to me.
Garko and Dellucci are particularly glaring examples because you’d think a comparable offensive player with less defensive value would not be difficult to acquire.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 1, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
More defensive value, obviously.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 1, 2009 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but those two seem very different to me. Dellucci was acquired hoping that the he could reach the heights of offense that he had shown previously. If he had, a comparable offensive player with more defensive value would have been very expensive. His offense was a major drop from what was projected.
Garko, as of this year at least, is hitting just exactly as everyone thought he would. He’s perhaps the most known asset we have, and I think fits your point perfectly.
Garko is probably fine at 1B. The way we’ve gotten just killed in the corner OF and at 3B is probably our biggest issue, defensively, just eyeballing it.
This is obviously stupid and old but I wonder how much Crisp/Michaels were really giving us over the abominations of the last two seasons in LF.
That said, they did have Franky last year who’s obviously a huge asset. I liked that trade but in hindsight (and this is very, very difficult for me to say) it might’ve made sense to just make Crowe the every day LF after Franky left. Crowe is what he is and letting him track down some flyballs probably would’ve paid off more than Francisco/Dellucci/Garko getting their ‘bats’ into the lineup.
And, by the way, I find it compelling that both Wedge and Shapiro implicitly acknowledged the importance of defense when the chips were down in 2007. Gutierrez (basically) got the start in 8 of 11 playoff games despite barely hitting his weight while Trot Nixon was, frankly, red hot.
Now, how does a team say “When the games matter most, we go with the guy who can’t hit but can field” go from there to “Let’s see if we can make the playoffs playing a 2B, a 1B and a DH in LF once a week”?
There was a breakdown here, I think. Someone should’ve re-emphasized why Franky played those games in October.
Wanted to comment on Garko at 1b. I feel like he may be the worst in the game when it comes to deciding whether or not to pursue a ball hit closer to the 2B. I don’t have any evidence to back this up, but I have watched him make the wrong choice numerous times.
I’ve been noticing it for years, and I’m surprised he still screws it up fairly often.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 1, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is really interesting (and astute). How often do the 2009 Indians get pumped up by an astonishing defensive play? A few throws to the plate from Choo, but for the most part, it’s butchery in the field. This has to be debilitating from a psychological perspective.
Asdrubal and Grady produce their fair share of gems.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 1, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If we want to really put on our fairy tale hats, maybe Grady’s extended absence has hurt the team’s morale simply because they didn’t get to see their only truly exciting defensive player play.
That sounds absurd but when I think of some of the shenanigans that have happened in the OF, well, that’s absurd.
Grady’s absence certainly is conspicuous. But, as I’ve said too many times already, I don’t think Grady is a sterling defensive centerfielder anymore. Remember Gutierrez’s game-saving catch in Great American last season? When has someone in the Tribe outfield made a comparable catch?
I still think Grady is up there. The Fielding Bible panel had him rated as the second best AL centerfielder last year.
UZR will never be that favorable to Grady because of his weak arm
This is strictly anecdotal, but the play that suggested (to me) that Grady might not be a Jim Edmonds-caliber CF was in game five of the 2007 ALCS when Manny hit the top of the right-field wall in the third inning, and scored Ortiz from first. Manny thought it was a homerun and was dogging it and had to settle for a single after the umps convened. Grady, as I remember, went over to right and jumped. I expected him to make the catch, which would have been remarkable, but he missed it. I remember thinking at the time that Torii Hunter would have caught it. And didn’t Grady later mess up Pedroia’s triple in the seventh in that game as well?
I think you’re getting a little crazy over the difference between “great” and “elite.” I think Grady is a great defensive center fielder, but I don’t think he’s ever been an elite one. Some guys deserve a Gold Glove because they’re really, really good, but others really tower over the competition. Sizemore is in the first group, and Gutierrez is in the second group.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I agree with you but I wouldn’t characterize my distinction as crazy. Grady is very good, but I wouldn’t say he’s the second-best defensive CF in the big leagues.
I didn’t say your distinction was crazy, I said that you’re getting a little crazy. Huge difference.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Ground rule number two:
Personal attacks. In other words, steer clear of “you’re an idiot” or “you suck.” A good rule of thumb: attack a poster’s ideas, not the poster himself/herself. We want this place to be somewhere where people can debate various topics with civility, not a demolition derby.
Honestly, I only meant it playfully, didn’t think we were in a big heated discussion.
Anyway, we all get a little crazy, but only a few of us are idiots. You’re not one of them.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 3, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
However, we’d do well to remember that if we’re (ridiculously) talking about the psychological impact of defense on a team, it’s more important to make an exciting play than it is to be a truly great defender.
In other words, Omar might have more of a “morale” value to a team than Adam Everett, although they are probably comparable (at their peaks) in terms of ability.
I’m not sure it’s ridiculous to talk about the value of the “exciting” play. This isn’t football, but guys who “make plays” may help lift a team up, bail a pitcher out, etc.
That said, I think the sort of partly invisible stuff that’s hard to measure is more important in the long run — things like getting to balls not hit right at you, covering first base, hitting the cutoff man consistently, and so on. It’s kind of like death by a thousand cuts — if you make a significantly lower percentage of make-able plays, it reduces the pitcher’s margin for error, puts more pressure on the offense, and generally increases the likelihood you’ll lose. I don’t think there exists a good way to quantify this, but the Indians do pretty consistently show up in the bottom half when teams are ranked by UZR, so that might be one indication. Apparently, we’ve gotten worse by quite a bit this year, too
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/year-over-12year-uzr-figures
In BP’s defensive efficiency, the Tribe ranks 28th. Here’s the formula for def eff:
“…the rate at which balls put into play are converted into outs by a team’s defense. Def Eff can be approximated with (1 – BABIP), if all you have is BABIP, but a team’s actual Def Eff is computed with
1 – ((H + ROE – HR) / (PA – BB – SO – HBP – HR)) "
Does that factor in the “difficulty” of balls in play, or does it just assume (not unreasonably) that over the course of the season, teams face similar quantities of easy/difficult plays? And, what about ground balls vs. fly balls? Just asking — I’m still trying to figure out fielding statistics (let alone BABIP!!).
I was actually considering saying Everett was better, which I think he is supposedly.
I make no claims to being able to accurately judge defense.
Wow. I would consider Omar to be the best defensive shortstop I ever saw, and I saw Ozzie Smith play a lot.
I’ve heard Omar was spectacular but not as rangey as he could’ve been, especially with regards to Ozzie who apparently maxed out range for shortstops.
But, again, I am just going off speculation.
That sounds right. Ozzie had amazing range. But Omar had more certainty at his position. Does that make sense?
Omar is the all-time leader in career fielding percentage, and he has tremendous concentration and execution on plays that can only be made barehanded, not to mention the devastating double-play turn. He made plenty of plays that he shouldn’t have, and more than anybody else in history, he’s made all the plays that he should have.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
A few years back, there was an initial round of nouveau defensive stats that suggested that Omar wasn’t all that great. The more the defensive stats have been refined since then, the more Omar has floated back to the top of the pile.
But yes … Everett by reputation is even better. There probably are a dozen guys who can play shortstop better than Omar but can’t hit well enough to make it to Double-A, to say nothing of racking up 2700 hits in the majors.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I think it’s important to acknowledge that all we’re saying here is that Omar is not the best defensive SS ever. He’s probably easily top 15 and that’s still phenomenal, obviously.
Top 15? I think you can say he’s in the Top 5 without rose-colored glasses.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Hafner and Vctor and Cliff (usually) and Asdrubal are the bright spots this year. I just like to watch them do well, it gives me hope and makes me happy.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I just want to bring this up: Any chance at all that Cliff was impacted by all the trade talk?
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
This season is probably the worst season as a fan that I can remember since 1991. In 2003 I knew we’d be bad and didn’t mind sifting through the potpourri of talented and not-talented players we threw out there everyday…and I got the sense that they were actually playing. 1994 was painful, but in a very different way, with a very different team. 1991 is getting to the edges of my non-childhood memory banks, but I remember really believing that team could be good. We had young offensive talent; Albert Belle, Carlos Baerga, Mark Whiten, and 21-year old Mark Lewis. Sandy Alomar was just 25. A guy by the name of Thome, age 20, played in a few games. Glenallen Hill and the ‘the Governor’ Jerry Browne were in the meat part of their age curves. Greg Swindell was just 26, Charles Nagy was a youthful 24, and Tom Candiotti was still throwing his junk knucklers at the tender age of 33. The bullpen included Steve Olin, Jeff Shaw and crafty veterans Doug Jones and Jesse Orosco (who I probably did not guess was only at the midway point of his career). In retrospect it makes more sense, but that team sucked. Sucked. Big time. 57-105, they only scored 576 runs. I don’t remember what thoughts I had on a day in day out basis watching their games on WUAB channel 43. I’m not that as a 12-year old I properly understood the emotions and motivations of professional baseball players across a 162-game season. I’m not sure I do now.
But what I’m tempted to think is that it is not merely an issue of trying hard. I can run a race real hard and still suck. I think it’s probably more about playing hard and playing correctly…executing in other words. And this team is not doing that. And we seem to be on a 1991 trajectory. And that should be recognized by people with more of a say in the decision making process of this team than me. And even if it is a ‘cop-out’ Wedge should be fired for the simple reason that the direction the team is taking needs to change and there is no simpler or more direct way to achieve that. I recognize Shapiro’s desire for consistency. But when that consistency is taking you off the cliff, changing directions is probably a good idea.
by APV on Jul 1, 2009 1:07 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
I never really believed in this team this year (I had them pegged to win 84 games at the start of the season.) Last year was much harder as I had higher expectations and the team went from first place to sellers within about a 4-5 week time. Everything went to hell in a hurry and we still had this great team that was able to finish out the year strong.
2006 was another season of great hope that was dashed by early June. It wasn’t a total disaster because we were still a young team that seemed only a few pieces away.
.
Hard to see what will stop this team from its current trajectory. Who is going to pull it out of its nose dive? Even in its current form—and even though Sizemore and Cabrera have returned—this team should not be 2-12 against not very challenging competition. When teams are on a roll, they look as if they will never lose. The Indians look right now like they will never win. Any wagers on Sowers vs. Contreras?
I’ll take Contreras in 4 with the KO.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 1, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Give me a reason to watch these games again. Hire Barry Bonds. Move Victor to player-manager. Dig up Bill Veeck and make him assistant GM for the rest of the year.
Give me a reason to watch these games again.
Allow Manning to drink during telecasts.
You know Selig? Ombudsman.
by rolub on Jul 1, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Or just muffle him.
UNDERWOOD: Partner, one problem with the Indians’ starters is they just don’t seem to be able to string more than a few good innings together at a stretch.
MANNING: Maph memaphmy mighpe.
by fleerdon on Jul 1, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But then it would be all Underwood all the time. That can’t be better.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
That would most definitely not be better.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 1, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ve read comments from two separate, apparently serious, people suggesting that Manning be the next Indians manager. Would that be better?
Ugh! Seriously?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 1, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
“And Andy Marte f#$&s up another play there. Well, Matt, he is just horrible, in every way.”
“You know you can’t swear on the air, right Eric?”
That would make me laugh every time I saw him in his manager’s uniform. Like laugh a lot.
I actually think he’s a pretty smart baseball guy so it may work. Also it has the crazy factor. You know it’s just so crazy it might work.
I have read this too and it amuses me as stated above.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
The way Shapiro seems to patronize Manning when he is on the broadcast makes me think this probably wouldn’t work out.
But, then again, crazier things have happened. He was the baserunning coach at one point, wasn’t he?
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Let's Go Tribe
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Josh Hamilton on public relapse: ‘It was just wrong. That’s all it comes down to.’
- Photo: The Marlins’ ridiculous-looking home run sculpture is almost complete
- Yankees GM Brian Cashman lures alleged stalker into police dragnet
- Report: Josh Hamilton had a relapse with alcohol
- Happy Birthday Boy! Wes Ferrell, the best-hitting pitcher of all-time, would be 104
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
