Game 87: Tigers 5, Indians 1
by Ryan on Jul 10, 2009 10:52 PM EDT
in Game Threads
Email
Print
Cliff Lee pitched seven good innings, striking out eight. He should have been done after six, as he'd already gone over 110 pitches, but Eric Wedge elected to send him back out for one more inning. It worked out, as Lee cruised through the seventh, but in my mind it was a dumb move. The Indians aren't in any kind of race, and Cliff Lee is by orders of magnitude the best starter the team has. I don't care if the All-Star Break's coming up, or you wanted to give Lee one more chance to get a win, at some point the sane portion of your brain needs to pipe up and say that you're going to need Lee to make 15 more starts this season to not lose 100 games, and 30 starts next season to make any pretense of competing in 2010.
Then there was the further adventures of Ryan Garko in the outfield. Garko made a very good effort on Gerald Laird's fly ball to right, but his best effort doesn't belong in a major-league outfield. And I'm not picking on Garko, since it wasn't his call to go out and play right field in one of the bigger outfields in baseball. If Kelly Shoppach catches every Cliff Lee start, and Victor Martinez is going to play first base when he isn't catching, then you have to bench either Garko or Travis Hafner when Cliff Lee starts. As a manager, you have to place your players in positions where they can best succeed, and trying to shoehorn Garko into the lineup in this fashion is just asking for failure.
Which brings me to this question: would not now be a good time to trade Garko? He's making $446K this season, but will be eligible for arbitration after the season. He's on a hot streak right now (he accounted for the Indians' lone run with a home run in the fifth), and would be a bargain bat for a contender looking for some cheap offense. And, if Mark Shapiro can keep from laughing while doing so, might sell another GM on his ability to play the outfield. You can then free up a roster spot for Matt LaPorta, since there's no service time issues at play any longer.
Anyway, after Lee left, Joe Smith gave up two runs in the eighth, the Indians rallied in the ninth but fell short, yadda, yadda, yadda.
Next Up: Pavano vs. Galarraga, 7:05 PM
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Asdrubal Cabrera | .087 | Grady Sizemore | -.175 |
| Ryan Garko | .062 | Travis Hafner | -.134 |
| Victor Martinez | .010 | Kelly Shoppach | -.092 |
172 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
The central debate is this: How crucial is it to bring LaPorta up now to get him regular at bats in the majors? If you believe there’s a great benefit to it, Garko needs to be gone, because they fill the same hole and Garko is considered inadequate, whereas LaPorta’s value is unknown but promising. If you feel LaPorta’s time is more productively spent working on his game in Columbus, having Garko, an affordable player, continue to represent our Indians, makes sense. Wedge has a comfort level with Garko as seen by Eric’s continuing to play him.
If LaPorta’s development is better served in Columbus, fine, but that doesn’t mean Garko should be an outfielder.
It’s an emergency scenario that we keep running out there even though there’s no emergency. It’s an overall drag on the pitching staff, a needless distraction, and an unnecessary disadvantage. It serves no purpose this year or for the future. Put Frisco out there, or if that’s unavailable, put Crowe out there. Or Barfield. Or find George Lombard. I can’t believe we’re discussing this.
Which brings me to this question: would not now be a good time to trade Garko? He’s making $446K this season, but will be eligible for arbitration after the season. He’s on a hot streak right now (he accounted for the Indians’ lone run with a home run in the fifth), and would be a bargain bat for a contender looking for some cheap offense
Ahem
by world dictator on Jul 10, 2009 11:13 PM EDT reply actions
think this is what he's referring to
What frustrated Lee was a fly ball that wasn’t caught by Ryan Garko in right field in a three-run second inning. That, essentially, was the ball game.
Asked if he felt the ball should have been caught, Lee said, "Do you? I don’t pass judgment on that. I throw the pitches. Where it goes it goes. It’s not up to me to move the outfielders or infielders. All I do is pitch.
“It did seem like it was in the air a long time. I don’t know if they had him shaded the other way or what. You’d have to ask him or Wedgie.”
“Sometimes I think because it’s me, I don’t make a play, and it becomes a big deal,” said Garko. “If [Shin-Soo] Choo’s out there, it’s a double and it doesn’t become an issue. I got a good jump on the ball, went all out. I just didn’t make the play.”
Wedge had no problem with Garko.
“That’s a tough play for anybody,” said Wedge. “He made a great effort. You can’t do any more than he did.”
http://www.cleveland.com/sports/index.ssf/2009/07/cleveland_indians_and_cliff_le.html
I love Lee.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
Well, he’s frustrated, and he should be. I’m glad he does feel that way. However, I’m not thrilled he expressed it to the media. Not cool. But he’s not the first person to do that.
I think Jensen Lewis is pissed too. Fifteen K’s in 9 innings, including striking out the side on 11 pitches tonight.
Why is it bad that he went to the media with how God awful Garko is out there? It’s a complete joke, someone needs to make a point of it.
It should be noted that Cliff could kill a puppy before every start now and I would argue that it was totally appropriate.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
We’re fans on the internet. He’s the best pitcher on a major league team. Be a professional. Scream at Wedge in his office before the media comes in. But don’t make veiled comments about a teammate’s shortcomings to the media.
Just because it makes you feel better doesn’t mean it’s right.
What about Garko’s “choo wouldn’t be blamed for that” comment?
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
How does that relate to my comments?
Like I said, Lee’s not the first person to do this, so I don’t think it’s a huge deal. Just would’ve preferred him to say something else.
I’m just saying that Lee isn’t the only one talking to the media honestly.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
One could also argue that a “professional” wouldn’t “make excuses” like Garko. I think Westbrook’s point is that the door swings both ways.
by world dictator on Jul 11, 2009 1:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I think TribeJay’s point is that just because someone else in the clubhouse did it is not an excuse.
Steel Nick
No, I just don’t think that was a shot at Choo. At all. Nick, I agree with your point below.
He could have said anybody. He picked Choo because he’s the normal right fielder. He didn’t think it would’ve been caught if someone else was out there.
Now, I think we all disagree with that. I don’t think it was an absolute slam dunk, but in all likelihood Choo’s speed would’ve allowed him to catch that ball. And Garko is getting a little defensive about it.
I agree that that was the most egregious thing quoted last night. How pathetic is that to bring a third party in?
No, not you. Your helmet!
by PatBordersHelmet on Jul 11, 2009 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Garko in the OF is so stupid it transcends normal protocol. I have no problem with what Lee did, the time for “professionalism” in this case has long passed.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
I see no reason why Cliff Lee should care about an internet fan’s definition of what constitutes a professional. Offending your sensibilities isn’t reason for Lee to be extra super nice about a crappy situation.
You have the right to your opinion, and I respect that, but that’s not a reason for Lee to completely suppress his.
by world dictator on Jul 11, 2009 1:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I see no reason why Cliff Lee should care about an internet fan’s definition of what constitutes a professional.
I don’t see why he should care about what we think either. Not saying he should. But his comments probably won’t be terribly well-received in the clubhouse. And that’s what he should care about. Particularly as the leader of the pitching staff. And if you don’t think Lee’s comment was just a little unprofessional, then I’m not sure what else I can say.
My guess is that you guys wouldn’t have had a problem with the below comment if it had actually occurred two years ago…
Reporter: “Do you think Lee should have been sent out for the 5th?”
Garko: “Do you? I don’t know, a lot of those balls were up in the zone for a long time. You’d think scoring nine runs would be enough to win a game. You’d have to ask Wedgie.”
I have a theory on Lee … but I’m loathe to post it.
Let’s just say … it might be time to move him.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 11, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Regardless of your theory, I also think it’s time to move him, and I won’t be surprised if we do.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Yes. And also because the Indians don’t like to read quotes like that.
Not saying they’d do it reactively or out of spite, but it reduces his value in their minds.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Not necessarily true. Many teams can afford to deal the prospects to acquire Halladay, but can’t afford his salary. Lee is a bit more affordable. Plus, teams will offer up prospects to grab Lee.
Giants, Rangers, Tampa, Angels, Seattle, Phillies, Mets, Colorado.
I don’t think the Rangers deal Feliz. Perhaps the Giants deal Madison Bumgarner. Tampa probably isn’t dealing David Price. The Angels don’t have a stud pitcher to deal. Seattle probably would deal Morrow, but he makes more sense in a deal for Peralta. Phillies and Mets don’t have the young pitching. Hey, maybe the Yankees want to talk about Joba. You just don’t know who covets Lee, but I think there are enough teams and prospects to make it work for both he and Hallday.
I do think that the salary difference makes up for any perceived quality difference, but the Blue Jays may be willing to subsidize the salary. Though we very often have done that — eating Colon’s salary in 2002 and Blake’s in 2008, among others — I’m not sure how open the Dolans can afford to be to that this season.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I haven’t seen the books, but I would think they’d be alright with subsidizing this year’s salary considering how much they would save next year.
by world dictator on Jul 11, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s what I would expect, too…. After all, if they don’t trade him this year, they have to pay his 09 salary anyway, so if it means a significant improvement in the quality of the return, well, it’s money that’s already on the books.
But what do I know.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 11, 2009 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but I doubt those quotes would be enough to push them over the edge from no to yes. But they might be reflective of their overall opinion of him and his value going forward.
It isn’t about the size of the quotes, it’s about how close to the edge they already were.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I’m fairly confident that “quotegate” will have little to no affect on our ability to trade Lee. Teams care more about winning than being a golden boy nice guy. Considering the long history of headcases and jerks in baseball, past and present, Lee’s comments don’t even register a blip on the radar.
by world dictator on Jul 11, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Other teams don’t care about those quotes. The Indians do.
The quotes are not really out of line and certainly understandable, in my view.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Oh I see what you mean. I agree. I think the Indians are one of a few front offices that really emphasize character.
by world dictator on Jul 11, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Or so we’ve chosen to believe. I think you said it better in your previous comment. If he’s got a bad attitude, I agree that it might be a last little push if they’re on the edge about a trade. And that makes them no different than any other team.
Excuse me, but where is this “bad attitude” judgment coming from? A quote in the paper? We don’t know the context. We’re reading a lot into it, projecting our preconceived notions of Phifer being a hardass. This doesn’t seem like Ryan Braun. Lee is a veteran, and he’s allowed to say this sort of thing. It’s not out of line. A reasonable person might even find it to be appropriate.
It’s not that Lee is speaking out of frustration or in his role as a veteran that the FO would sour on. As Jay mentions, Antonetti is pretty specific in the preseason interview about wanting players to take accountability. It’s discouraging (from their point of view) when a player starts to suggest, “Yeah, he should have caught that,” instead of, “What matters is that I gave up a hit. I’m sure there was more I could have done.”
Steel Nick
Or so we’ve chosen to believe?
Shapiro has talked about this dozens of times. In our interview, Antonetti talked about their database of public comments, which tracks excuse-making and throwing teammates under the bus, basically comments exactly like Lee and Garko made.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Of course he talks about it. But it could still all be public relations speak. All teams say this.
There really is a database of comments? That seems unbelievably overdone. Do they feel like these type of comments affect play? And yet a managerial change couldn’t?
I have these same questions. It sounds like Jay is seriously saying there is a database.
by NickFantana on Jul 13, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Antonetti didn’t specifically use the word “database,” but I believe it is part of Diamondbase, which is essentially just a gigantic, highly structured database. I see no reason why they would have a zillion scouting and statistical pieces in DiamondView and then keep this data on a bunch of desktop stickies. Judge for yourself:
JL: How do you evaluate makeup?
CA: Through a network of contacts within the game. Actually, one of Kerry’s closest friends, Jason Bere, is a special assistant with us, and they were teammates in Chicago. So that’s a first-hand account, and baseball’s a very small world. There are a lot of interconnected people, and it’s not that difficult to get a sense of what type of teammate a guy may be, whether it’s from someone else who’s played with him, and there’s maybe one or two degrees of separation, to how they handle things publicly when different issues have arisen with a team—what are their comments either on the record or off the record, how are they handling themselves?
JL: You take a lot of notice of that.
CA: We take a lot of notice of that.
JL: Do you actually track that as part of your data analysis?
CA: We track it, and when we get to a decision point, what we try to do is get the most information—actually, not just the most information, the most relevant information, because there’s a ton of information out there, it’s almost information overload at this point.
JL: A lot of times, a player will get a certain reputation …
CA: Yeah, we don’t want it to be on hearsay. It’s not just based on, a guy had a bad experience with a writer, and that writer has something disparaging to say about him. We’re not gonna use that as our makeup grade, we’re looking for more first-hand accounts of how a guy handles himself.
JL: So if you were cataloguing press accounts, for example, you wouldn’t be interested in the way a writer was characterizing a guy, you’d be interested in what the player was actually saying.
CA: Yeah. It would be somewhat of a red flag if there’s a pattern in his quotes of excuse-making. For a pitcher to say, using the example of a closer, hypothetically, “Hey, it wasn’t my fault, the wind was blowing out, it was just a flyball that happened to go over the fence, and that’s why we lost the game.” Or, “Hey, you know what, that was a routine groundball that we didn’t make the play on.” Because he’s calling out a teammate, he’s not accepting accountability. And those cases are out there.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I agree … if the return is there … then it’s probably time.
It also means 2010 will likely be a tough year.
That’s why I’m so torn on this one.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 11, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I think this whole post-game thread is indicative of a boatload of frustration by players and fans, alike. The point about Cliff isn’t whether his remarks were professional or not, it’s about what’s best for this club. I don’t care how many wins Lee has, I care about how many wins the Indians have. But the CW is that sniping publicly about other players is not good for team morale, or whatever, and that it can undermine performance (I have NO idea whether this has every been statistically tested or not). If Lee’s frustration begins to affect the ability of the team to play together and try to win games, and his value is high, and, if we think we’re not competing in 2010, then, yes, it’s time to move him.
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if Shap packaged Lee and Garko together in a deal and they ended up playing together elsewhere?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Wouldn’t it be hilarious if Shap packaged Lee and Garko together in a deal and they ended up playing together elsewhere?
Only if the other team states they’ll use him in the outfield. :)
Yeah, I’m not sure its right to call out Garko, who obviously gives 100% out there. But the fact of the matter is, Lee should call out Wedge…not Garko. Garko isn’t an outfielder. Lee has to realize this. Its Shapiro and Wedge he should shoot his comments at. Hey, maybe if a few of the players would speak up (especially the likes of Lee/Vic/Grady) the front office might make some changes.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 11, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions
awesome. Hey, if Wedge is gonna publicly defend Garko like that when everyone knows it’s stupid then Lee should be able to say stuff too.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 11, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
think Jensen Lewis is pissed too. Fifteen K’s in 9 innings, including striking out the side on 11 pitches tonight.
It’s about damn time.
by fleerdon on Jul 11, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The front office should’ve sent him down earlier
by world dictator on Jul 11, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I think this is pretty classless of Garko, actually. It’d be one thing if he said I tried and hard and missed. But, why name Choo? Sure, Choo isn’t a good outfielder, but that’s irrelevant. It comes across as both an excuse and as sniping at a teammate. I guess this is what losing teams do.
I didn’t read it as sniping at Choo. I think what he was saying was, “Choo wouldn’t get that either but because his reputation as a defender is solid it wouldn’t be as big of a deal.” It’s still a public excuse which I’m not entirely approving of, but I didn’t see it as bringing Choo down in any way.
Steel Nick
This wasn’t my initial reaction, but the more I think about it, I think you’re right.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, the Bill James online site has Choo as above average in RF according to the plus/minus metric
Choo is a very good outfielder. He had a couple of mishaps at the start of the year, but it’s kind of astounding to me that anyone could fail to see how good he is out there. Great arm, chases down practically everything.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
His route-running and getting jumps on the ball aren’t always the best, but I think he’s gotten better at it. He’s good out there…frankly, he’s good at pretty much everything.
I think in Choo’s case the anecdotal evidence and the numbers suggest the same thing. Choo is already a good outfielder on talent alone, and he possesses all the physical requirements to do so. But sometimes it looks like he’s still learning, and the instincts/wherewithal need to catch up to the tools. In time he could be a fantastic fielder.
Steel Nick
I was listening to the radio when this play occurred. Hamilton’s play-by-play went something like, “Ryan Garko… is not an outfielder.”
Steel Nick
Have not the slightest problem with any of these quotes in response to the questions that were asked. If these guys weren’t talking, we’d be on their cases about ducking responsibility. What have they really disclosed? That Lee isn’t an outfielder and doesn’t roster or position the outfielders; that Garko’s not a great outfielder, but he doesn’t think it was a makeable play anyway; that Wedge will neither sacrifice his guy nor fall on his own sword over a fly ball hit to his worst defensive outfielder?
Call me back when the quotes are “we traded a bunch of guys.” This is something out of nothing.
by fleerdon on Jul 11, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, you know — we lost. It’ll happen 40 more times if it happens once.
I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in.
by fleerdon on Jul 11, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there a bad time to trade Garko?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 10, 2009 11:55 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
By himself, probably not a lot. But I think if you threw in someone like Sowers, you might be able to get a nice arm coming back. I think both Garko and Sowers have some value, but I don’t know that either guy has a place on this team for 2010. So if they can swing a deal to get something of decent value, they should.
I think they have to explore it … because I have this weird feeling that almost all of the arby eligible guys could be non-tendered in the off-season outside of Perez.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 11, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t get your hopes up. They didn’t non-tender Broussard, and he really was not good, either.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
That’s very true … the only difference now is that the economy is flailing … attendance is plummeting … and they may REALLY look to pinch pennies next year.
Garko’s numbers could end up just being just good enough to make more than the Tribe wants to pay … plus, his agents will point to willingness to play new positions.
Shoppach is already at $2 million … and is the personal catcher of the best pitcher on the staff.
Barfield seems to be a no-brainer.
Reyes may end up a non-tender, but re-signed to minor league deal.
Perez they’ll likely keep I’m sure.
They may not non-tender guys like Garko and Shoppach … but if they’re even considering it … it’s time to get something for them.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 11, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
plus, his agents will point to willingness to play new positions.
That isn’t a compensation issue in arbitration. As for Barfield, he may not get enough in arbitration to worry about.
There is no way in hell Shoppach gets non-tendered. The whole idea is totally divorced from reality. If Shoppach were a free agent, he’d have no trouble getting a deal like Blake’s.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
2015.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Using my handy “NL West Converter Chart”, Sanchez just went 6.1 IP and gave up 5 ER.
by afh4 on Jul 11, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Yeah… because we know the AL Central is filled with juggernauts…..geez, the kid just pitched a no-hitter… for one night he was the best pitcher in the world…. nearly perfect (and probably should’ve been)…. sure the Padres were trotting out a lineup that should’ve been playing at Rancho Cucamonga, but it was a helluva a performance and just another reason why baseball rules…..
I should’ve expected as much…. I think this is a great site and I’m a very frequent visitor and a very, very infrequent poster… I think there’s some really some insightful and top-notch analysis here from Jay and everyone else….. but sometimes the snark that comes with some of the posts just drives me away… which is why I knew another awaited mine…
Sanchez pitched a great game…. his first career CG and SHO turns out to be a no hitter…. in front of his father, in the first game he’s seen him pitch in the bigs… he could go out next time and give up 9 ER in 2 innings, for all I care….even though it took place for an “inferior” NL team, I don’t know what insight I thought I might gain about it here, since this is an AL team’s site, but I guess ragging on a guy who just tossed a no hitter sort of rubbed me wrong…. hell, I’m as cynical as they come…… just not enough for this site though…
This might not be the appropriate time considering your complaint but dude what’s with the ellipses fetish?
Relax, ragging on the NL West is a running joke. A factual one.
Steel Nick
Truth is funny.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I really don’t see what’s sanctimonious about harp’s first post and agree with him that this was a less than hospitable welcome.
by NickFantana on Jul 11, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Meanwhile, it should be noted that I’m a jerk to everyone so I’m probably not one to judge.
by NickFantana on Jul 11, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Firstly, not his first post.
Secondly, somebody just appeared out of the woodwork to reply to a joke about an NL West Score Converter Chart and then imply that it was overly cynical.
Seriously? Can you really read anything about a “Score Converter Chart” and take it seriously enough to remind someone that a pitcher throwing a no-hitter did a good job, no matter what your stupid, made-up, wholly fictional, way of the unicorn, zubaz pants wearing score converter chart says?
Seriously?
by afh4 on Jul 11, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, did you just drop a “firstly” on us?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m actually proud of you for sneaking it in there.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought it was a really funny idea, Andrew. But I do think we’re all a little hard on newcomers or lurkers who post once in awhile.
Also, if we were having a good season, we wouldn’t even be having most of these conversations. Blah.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I must have joined about a week after that thread. But, yeah, probably a dead topic.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing wrong with cynicism in my book. But there’s a lot of whistling-past-the-graveyard here with Sanchez. People rush to diminish his accomplishment because the received wisdom at LGT is that he is a flat-out bum. Let’s be quick to point out that he’s no good, with an insane walk rate, and I could do just as well as Sanchez.
I know the NL West thing is a standing trope, but there are two extreme hitters’ parks in the division, in addition to the two extreme pitchers’ parks. Sanchez, in my mind, would have been the better return for DeRosa.
I think there’s a tendency to conflate “the mods” with “received wisdom.” That’s natural-we are able to dictate discussion in basic ways others can’t, namely calling topics off-limits, etc.
That said, it’s a bit odd at times. I don’t know that I’ve ever expressed an opinion about Sanchez, at all. I have been making fun of the NL West for about three years, though.
Who said he’s a bum?
Tough to defend Perez at the moment, but you conveniently forget two things:
1. Perez has another 5+ years under club control, two years more than Sanchez. We get three arbitration years out of each, but we also get two years of Perez at minimum salary.
2. Perez is not the only player we will receive for DeRosa.
Is Sanchez better than Perez straight-up? As of this week, most anyone would have to say so. But it isn’t an apples-to-apples comparison.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Actually, the AL Central teams rank 4th (that’s us), 11th, 13th, 17th and 29th (Royals) in runs scored, among the 30 teams.
So the division is a little above-average in run scoring — which is only natural, considering the AL uses the DH.
The Padres are the worst offense in the game — their team slugging is .366, which is lower than Ben Francisco’s. They score a whole run per game less than the typical AL Central offense. Without exaggeration, they make the Twins look like the ’27 Yankees, and of course AT&T is perhaps the most pitcher-friendly park in the majors.
YES, he did pitch a great game, even considering all of that. But there is little reason to think he could have done it against any AL Central team, even the Royals, in a neutral park with the DH.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
All this is true, yet I find the anti-NL sniping on this site to be a little much. No one is going to argue that the NL is not a considerably weaker league right now and has been for quite awhile. But we’re sitting on top of a 5-13 interleague record this year playing against the NL Central, a division with only one team holding a positive run differential.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
That is one team though. How did the AL do against the NL? How did the AL West do against the NL West?
Yeah, but it’s OUR team. There’s a real sour grapes feeling when people on this blog are complaining about how bad the NL is during a season when we suck. We would not be leading any division in the NL with this team this season.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 11, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
With this 100%. 5-13. You can say we have the talent to be middle of the pack or better in the NL but we haven’t got it done. SSS sure, but it was 8 games below .500, and not out of line with the rest of our season. If we want to tell the Reds to stick their tropy Bad News Bears style, awesome, but it’s hard to act superior here.
Possibly. Not necessarily. I actually believe we’d be a middle of the road team in the NL, but it’s all conjecture at this point.
It seems like forever since we’ve had our last rumor dump about Victor, Jhonny, Cliff and others. Shouldn’t now be about the time when the market for Pavano and others really starts heating up?
Do we think it’s possible that Shapiro is going to sell less to keep the team more competitive to prevent Wedge from looking bad?
Shouldn’t we be unloading most of our marginal depth talent for prospects a few years younger to re-tool for 2010-2012? Guys like Garko and Francisco can’t be part of the plan for 2012, can they?
Guys like Garko and Francisco can’t be part of the plan for 2012, can they?
You can make a very good argument they’re not part of the plan for 2010 either.
Garko is just not the type of guy you keep much beyond his first year of arbitration, in which he’ll make somewhere between $2 and $3M.
Not that other teams don’t have scouts, but Garko hits for modest average and power and has on-base skills. This new versatility thing—hey, look at what it did for Kevin Millar’s career. You can’t tell me Boston is going to go at this with Jeff Bailey and Mark Kotsay at first base? Garko could and should be traded.
Garko isn’t the kind of player the Indians keep at $2M. I think there are plenty of teams that pay Garko types of players that much. And there are even teams where Garko would be a useful addition.
by world dictator on Jul 11, 2009 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Do we think it’s possible that Shapiro is going to sell less to keep the team more competitive to prevent Wedge from looking bad?
I think this idea has been beyond overplayed. It’s ridiculous. Shapiro is not doing things to make Wedge look good, which would be a total betrayal of his basic responsibilities. You would have to think that Shapiro is both stupid and totally lacking in integrity to think this.
I would also note that Shapiro apparently has trouble acknowledging that Wedge does look bad, i.e., that he would even need any help.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Yeah, you’d think Shapiro would call Wedge and say, “ok, what do I need to do to the roster for you not to play Garko in the outfield.”
If Shapiro sells less, it’s only because nobody wants our marginal players (Francisco, Garko) and he can’t get adequate value for our worthwhile players (Lee, Martinez, Peralta). I doubt that Shapiro goes out of his way to save Wedge.
by woodsmeister on Jul 11, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Do we think it’s possible that Shapiro is going to sell less to keep the team more competitive to prevent Wedge from looking bad?
This is paranoid thinking. If Shapiro doesn’t sell as much as he might, I’d say it’s because he doesn’t want to acknowledge publicly that 2010 is being written off. I think he believes if he gets a few breaks the Tribe can win the Central next year. unless they unload Lee and Victor and Jhonny.
Do we think it’s possible that Shapiro is going to sell less to keep the team more competitive to prevent Wedge from looking bad?
I’ll just cross that one off the list, then.
by NickFantana on Jul 13, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Find several things interesting here….
Almost seems like Lee has stepped up the veiled comments postgame thing … as if to see if the FO blinks and trades him. Not positive if this is his first start since Shapiro publicly backed Wedge as staying through the year (I’m assuming Lee has no love lost for Wedge).
I can’t believe Shapiro came out and said Wedge and staff would be here through the season. That said, now that that’’s been established, you can’t have players openly questioning managerial tactics it’s not up to me to move the outfielders and infielders.
Deal him already.
Lee’s comments after the announcement of Wedge staying were VERY similar.
He’s kind of taking this distanced approach to everything that happens with the FO and manager.
“There was never a distraction for me,” said Lee. “It’s out of my hands. It has nothing to do with what I do. Wedge has been the manager ever since I’ve been here. It’s all I know. Until somebody tells me differently, he’s going to be our manager.”
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 11, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally … I think he’s been very peeved at the FO and Wedge since the demotion …
He’s turned that anger into effort and concentration on the mound … I even sensed this during the Cy season last year.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 11, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that’s a complete load of crap, but whatever.
I think his remarks regarding Wedge were notable for their utter lack of voicing support for him.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I think his remarks regarding Wedge were notable for their utter lack of voicing support for him
Which might cause an issue in the FO, but what do you expect of a guy who wants to win and has to try to do so with Ryan Garko behind him? Fire Wedge, put Lee in as player/manager.
I become an expert simply by doing something.
I just wish they would stop with the ninth inning teases.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I think this season has driven me away from drink.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 11, 2009 3:45 PM EDT reply actions
Remember spring training, when it was the year of Jhonny and Ryan Garko in the OF was just a funny joke?
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 11, 2009 3:49 PM EDT reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Let's Go Tribe
Related FanShots on Let's Go Tribe
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Photo: Padres fan regrets letting mother capture moment with Trevor Hoffman
- Marlins agree to unretire No. 5 for Logan Morrison, who will honor his father’s favorite player
- Weatherman Derek Holland does Dallas TV
- Ask Alex: Will Julio Teheran or Matt Moore win rookie of the year?
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
