Meloan dealt to Rays
wha, wha, whuhhhhhhh!?
over 2 years ago
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Alright, who made this deal and what have they done with Mark Shapiro?
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
by jdudas on Jul 2, 2009 2:57 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
According to Baseball Reference, Abreu is 32 and has pitched in the majors occasionally. He looks like he didn’t pitch at all in 2008, at least not in the US.
He’s also 6’ 2" and weights 155 lbs, again according to Baseball Reference
i think “ocassionally” is overselling it.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/A/Winston-Abreu.shtml
Are they on drugs? Seriously? Are they just trying to drive the fanbase away?
This trade makes no sense on any single level for me.
I doubt the fan base is going to be driven away by trading Jon Meloan. I’d be surprised if half the fans even knew who he was. It’s not like we traded Cliff or Vic.
It was a joke … perhaps I should have said “knowledgeable” fan base.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 2, 2009 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, this is just silly.
The “fan base” has no idea who Jon Meloan is. The “fan base” has little idea who Luis Valbuena is.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
While Abreu is having an astronomically better year (0.3 H/9, 2.8 BB/9, 13.8 K/9, 4.9 K/BB in AAA) than Meloan, he’s 8 years older and Meloan has an absolutely stellar minor league track record before he was converted to a starter last year and, obviously, this year’s rocky performance.
I was a big Meloan fan.
Steel Nick
I don’t even believe that Shap would make this deal. That theory of him trying to save Wedge’s job with a better pen might have merit.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
This is the first trade we’ve made in a while that I honestly didn’t feel good about. At all.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 2, 2009 3:15 PM EDT reply actions
why?
We're really bad this year. How's that for a signature?
by mixmasterasia on Jul 3, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, those numbers.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
DraysBay has had a love affair with Abreu …
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 2, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
All I care about is effective relief pitching. Don’t know anything about this guy, but Meloan couldn’t even get a call-up during this year’s disaster
but Meloan couldn’t even get a call-up during this year’s disaster
This is true. But he’s a guy we still had control over for some time, right?
by APV on Jul 2, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
This year doesn’t matter any more. Meloan is an upgrade over this Abreu fella for 2010.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
probably more confident than I am in nothing, which is what a not under control Abreu is (I think)
by APV on Jul 2, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Meloan is pretty much a non-prospect at this point. He’s a 25 y/o reliever who hasn’t been able to record outs – in the minors – for the past two years. Who cares about the age of one crappy reliever over another?
But a 25-year-old is a lot more likely eventually to figure it out as a reliever than as a starter.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
When he looked good he looked like he’d be real good, and he was young, like Andrew Brown before him. We haven’t shed too many tears for Andy Brown.
In two years will anyone be selling cars?
by woodsmeister on Jul 2, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Nice.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
To paraphrase Bill Simmons:
Anytime a sub .400 team can swap a 24 year old RP with some upside for a 32 year old journeyman RP, you gotta do it.
This is so strange.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
If this is really a move made for this season, and without knowing more details on Abreu’s contract status I have a hard time seeing how it is not, this would seem to me like Shapiro really is putting his chips in with Wedge. Which would seem to make a post-seasoning firing of both of them more likely.
This is just ridiculous. (The trade, not what you said.)
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 2, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Abreu service time pre-this season:
ML service: 0.114
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 2, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
But he was initially signed in, gulp, 1993. So he’s a free agent at the end of the season regardless, no?
by APV on Jul 2, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
here’s his page from Cot’s
Winston Abreu rhp
1 year (2009)
* 1 year (2009)
o signed by Tampa Bay as a free agent 2/5/09 (minor-league contract)
o $0.425M in majors
o contract purchased by Tampa Bay 6/14/09
o DFA by Tampa Bay 6/27/09
* 1 year (2007)
o signed by Washington as a free agent 11/06 (minor-league contract)
o contract purchased by Washington 5/8/07
o DFA by Washington 6/20/07
o contract purchased by Washington 9/1/07
o sent outright to AAA by Washington 10/10/07 (refused)
* 1 year (2006)
o contract purchased by Baltimore 7/06
* signed 1993 as an amateur free agent from the Dominican Republic
* ML service: 0.114
by APV on Jul 2, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Not if he stays on the 40-man right?
Service time determines major league free agency … versus signing dates for minor leaguers.
RIght? Right?!?!?!?!
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 2, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I believe we would control him until his age 38 season at this point …
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 2, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
they are minor league free agents…not major league free agents. I think FTF is correct.
by APV on Jul 2, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
but this would have to be a guy who sticks…no shuttling back and forth for him
by APV on Jul 2, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Only if they’re not on the 40-man I believe.
If they’re on the 40-man in the off-season, their major league service time is the deciding factor … and they need 6 years of it before they earn free agency.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 2, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Me too … but I think this is the way it works.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 2, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I think FTF is right; if he stays on the active roster we have him basically until he dies.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
FTF is right … as long as he stays on the 40-man roster, he’s not a free agent until he ends a season with six years or more of major league service time.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The only way this makes sense is if, as others have observed, they think Meloan has a low ceiling anyway, and some contending club wants a ML ready reliever packaged with, say Shoppach, for a deal for something we can actually build on. That’s the only way it’s not a deal for this season, which is just insane.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Interesting thought Denver…. My initial thought was that this is a trade that our FO is usually on the other side of. Lastoria in his comments, says this:
I got some clarification on the move. I feel a little better about it. Can’t say much at this point in time, but this move will make a little more sense soon.
Stuart Dean
Thanks, I hadn’t seen that. I really hope I’m right.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 3, 2009 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions
He has never actually tried in his career and actually throws 101?
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
OK, so another deal is clearly in the works.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 3, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m having trouble seeing how a second deal changes anything. We flipped a player for another at the same position. Did we gain roster flexibility anywhere? Is it that some other team wanted Abreu and couldn’t find a match with TB? That seems crazy, who would go through the effort for such marginal pieces?
I’d read Lastoria’s comment to refer to Meloan being involved with some sort of conduct that potentially could make Lovullo a grandfather.
legit puff of air out of mouth out loud
POAOOMOL.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 3, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lovullo has a daughter who is not even in high school yet, making this something of a Lettermanesque unfortunate joke.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 3, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s plausible. Here’s how it works:
1. Meloan devalued, now viewed strictly as a reclamation project.
2. Abreu is potential trade chip, but Rays are on a deadline after DFA’ing him in a roster crunch.
3. Rays like Meloan as a reclamation project, at least it’s better than a bag of balls.
4. Indians like Abreu for short-term help in the bullpen and to feature for a trade.
5. Indians figure Abreu potentially has value in a July deal, where Meloan has none.
6. Indians decide they’d rather try to flip Abreu for whatever they can this month than attempt to salvage Meloan next year.
I don’t see any fallacies there, so maybe that’s how it is.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 3, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, like I said above. Only smarter.
I think the idea that packaging a (somewhat) major league ready bullpen arm with someone like Shoppach or Garko might get us more of what we’re looking for to build on than trading either guy by himself is what makes this scenario even more plausible.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 3, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Right, so it breaks even.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
A corresponding roster move to get Abreu on the 25-man roster will be announced when he officially joins the club.
by APV on Jul 2, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Unless of course he thinks he can flip an MLB showcased Abreu for something better than Meloan????
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
Interesting… but he’s gotta pitch well and not catch staff.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
That staff is catching. Perez and Veras have it now.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He infected a pretty OK Royals team way back when.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
This does smack of a three-team deal … or of a deal with a piece that is as-yet unreported.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope so – this trade seems so un-Shapiro-like. I mean, we’d need an absolute miracle to have any chance of a comeback in 2009, which seems to be essentially what acquiring Abreu is – still trying to compete this season, based on his age and our limited control over him as compared to Meloan.
Granted, Meloan was a bit of a disappointment in that he was expected to be up here and contributing by now, based on his past achievements in the Minors. What I find puzzling is why Meloan’s velocity is down so much – if I recall correctly, this guy used to hit the mid-90s and even hit 98 on occasion. However, with us, he was regularly 91-93, occasionally touching 94 or 95. This seems like a current trend with many of our pitchers and pitching prospects – they keep seeming to lose velocity (Meloan, Carmona – I’ll write another post on Komminsk commenting that Carmona’s velocity is not what it once was, Lewis, even Betancourt has lost a few miles off of the fastball, thoug he is older than the others, so maybe that’s to be expected), which seems to be a disturbing trend in my opinion.
I understand you have to take some MPH off of your fastball to work on command, but eventually, you should be able to get the velocity back up there and be able to command it more times than not. With our prospects of late, however, it seems they don’t regain it, which means that they have to have great, even perfect, command instead of just merely good command. That’s why it seems we don’t have any, or many, power arms that are at the ML or AAA level, outside of the recently acquired Veras, Perez, and now, Abreu.
I don’t know how much of this is due to coincidence and how much is due to some organizational philosophy that isn’t working out as planned (i.e. take something off the fastball to hone command, but not intending for these pitchers to permanently lose that velocity), but this is not the first prospect that seems to have been a power arm at one time, but has suddenly lost the velocity and never regained it. Lewis is probably the most glaring example – he was 93-95 in 2007, and even when he made a mistake, he could get away with it more times than not. Now, when he makes those same mistakes, hitting 90-91, those pitches are getting hammered, which is why he’s given up so many HRs.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Isn’t this a natural function of age, or more properly of pitches thrown? Pitchers who throw 100 at age 23 degrade to 94 by age 27 or so?
And I thought Jensen’s problem was placement—getting too much of the plate, and hitters’ knowing he’ll be in the zone even when ahead in the count—not velocity.
I haven’t heard what you said in your first paragraph – I don’t see pitchers losing their overpowering velocity before they’ve hit 30. Heck, Betancourt seems to have lost a little bit off of his fastball over the past season or so, as he used to touch 94-95, but seems to touch more 92-93, but at least he’s in his mid-30s – by that time, I could see it, but not by age 27.
Recall Mike Jackson – he was still hitting 93-95, and he was well past age 30 when he was with us. Same thing with Jose Mesa (sorry to bring his name up). I’ve never heard of 100 MPH guys falling down to 94 by age 27, even as a starter (I presume you were referring to Carmona, since Lewis wasn’t close to 100 in 2007, hitting 95, maybe 96 at best, on occasion).
Jensen has had trouble with his location, but also note what the radar guns are saying (and not just at Progressive Field either; it’s been on the road as well) – he barely hits 92-93, which he was regularly hitting in 2007, and he NEVER hits 94-95, which he did in 2007. Arguably, Jensen’s command was never great (look at his Minor League stats when he was a starter at Akron and below – decent command, but never pinpoint or great command); when Jensen was hitting 92-95, he could get away with leaving balls over the plate more often. The fact that he’s throwing mostly 89-91 and hitting the middle of the plate is the main reason why he can’t get away with the same mistakes he was making back in 2007 as often, as those pitches are getting crushed for HRs and XBHs much more often. That’s why he’s not nearly as good at stranding inherited runners and completing innings like he did back in 2007, or even in 2008, when his velocity was down (though I don’t think there were as many 89s and 90s; he was still throwing 91-93 more often), but he was more consistent with his location.
Both his velocity and his location have taken steps back – that’s why he has to be virtually perfect with his command (just like Riske had to) in order to be effective, and more times than not, he hasn’t been, but Jensen has never had great command – when he threw with better velocity and movement, he could get away with those mistakes from time to time, but not anymore.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
In terms of lost velocity, I wasn’t referring to any specific pitcher. Though Mesa and Mike Jackson still threw hard, were they throwing as hard as they did when they were younger? Dwight Gooden threw like hell when he first came up, but lost speed with each subsequent season. Curt Schilling, Doug Drabek. Lots of guys. There are sure to be exceptions, but isn’t it typical for pitchers to lose velocity with age?
Yes, it’s typical for pitchers to lose velocity with age, but that’s usually in their 30s, especially mid- and late-30s. Like I said above, I can see Betancourt having some reduction in his velocity, but not guys like the following three.
Jensen is 25, Carmona is 25, and Meloan is 24 – these guys shouldn’t be losing that much velocity, if at all (and I think all those guys you mentioned didn’t start losing velocity until their early 30s at the earliest, if not their mid-30s), at their current ages. That’s why I wonder if something in our organizational philosophy (i.e. the way we are training our pitchers to reduce their velocity to hone their command) is having a type of “side-effect” where they can’t get their velocity back to their previous levels. Perhaps the Indians’ staff is having these guys work on their offspeed stuff so much that they’re not using their fastballs enough? I’m not sure – that’s just a guess, but something seems to be afoot here in my opinion. Three promising pitching prospects with power arms, especially Carmona and Meloan, and now they are throwing average or slightly above-average at best? I find that to be unusual.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I will have to research this. I think there is support for some pitchers’ losing velocity in their ages 24-25 seasons. Plus, you’re dealing with three or four pitchers in your case. This may just be a coincidence, another example of Cleveland luck. I think that’s more likely than some organizational effect.
A guy with the questionable name of Chone Smith at Anaheim Angels All the Way has the following. Not empirical, but interesting.
For the first study, I looked at Baseball America’s 2003 Prospect Handbook. They usually give a range for a pitcher’s fastball velocity, though in some cases I inferred one. For example, if all they say is “mid 90’s” I’ll count it as 93-96 or so. I compared the ranges to the velocity data from Fangraphs for 2007. I’ve got 54 pitchers that I wrote down from the book who pitched in 2007. For 39 of them, they are within 1 MPH of their 2002 range. Seems like Baseball America did a pretty accurate job, and prospects losing velocity is not as commonplace as I may have thought. 12 were under the 2002 range, and 3 were over. This is of course selective sampling, if we were able to put a radar gun on the prospects who did not pitch in the majors in 2007, we may very well come across many cases of injuries and reduced velocity.
So 22 percent of his selected pitchers lost velocity in the five years after they were listed by BA as prospects.
You’re wrong on Betancourt. I’ve watched a ton of games over the past few years, and I rarely remember him hitting 94-95. Fangraphs backs this up…he’s been between 91.4 and 92.3 every year since 2004.
Lewis lost velocity, but I think his problem is similar to Sowers. Both lost a ton of velocity after their initial year, and then regained at least some of it in the second half of the following year. However, the command has been shaky for both since then. Lewis was fine in the latter part of last year, but he’s been all over the place this year.
They spent a lot of time re-working Meloan’s delivery this spring. I agree with many others, from what we know, this seems strange. But there must be something else that makes them think he won’t become a top reliever.
Was there some coachability concern with him at some point? I vaguely recall some mention of this, but it could have been another player.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I’m not sure – perhaps. I remember also that there was a coachability concern with “someone,” but can’t recall if it was Meloan or not (his thinking that his stuff was good enough to blow it past the hitters and that he didn’t need to work on improving the command on his fastball and/or his breaking stuff – I’m not sure if that’s what you are referring to – I may also have the wrong guy).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Jul 3, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is it possible you’re thinking of Reyes?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 3, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
No, that recollection isn’t vague at all.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 3, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions
TribeJay,
I said, “Betancourt would touch 94-95,” meaning he would hit it on occasion – I didn’t mean he sat at 94-95; sorry if I wasn’t clear.
My main point was that Betancourt’s velocity has also dropped, but at his age – 34 – it can be expected he might lose a few miles off of his fastball. However, that shouldn’t be the case with Meloan, Carmona, and Lewis, not at their ages – that’s pretty uncommon for power pitching prospects (especially Meloan, and to a slightly lesser degree, Carmona) in their mid-20s.
I was going to mention Sowers as well, though his velocity this year seems to be hitting the low-90s more, whereas he was lucky to hit 90 or 91 once or twice in an outing.
I heard that they reworked Meloan’s delivery in order to enable him to keep the same dominant stuff he had on consecutive days; it seems he wouldn’t be able to pitch on consecutive days with the same stuff. This is in hindsight now, but if his old delivery (before he was turned into a starter) would have enabled him to dominate like he did in the Minors before the Dodgers turned him into a starter, I think I would have taken that dominant pitcher for only 3 or 4 days out of a week, rather than have him turn into a guy who can barely hit 90 on the gun and fall totally apart at AAA. I would have dealt with the not being able to use him on back-to-back days if I could get that dominant form out of him more times than not on the days I did use him.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I think that this is about right if you think about the fact that Abreu was DFA’d last week and the Indians had an early chance to put a waiver claim in on Abreu because of their place in the standings.
If they are having conversations on another trade and the team that they’re talking to has an interest in Abreu, the Indians can put in that waiver claim (using Meloan to get him from Tampa), and use Abreu as another chip in a larger trade with the aforementioned team.
This is likely a precursor to another deal that’s coming. Whether it’s of the 3-way variety, I don’t know, but I don’t think that this move will stand on it’s own when it’s all said and done.
by The DiaTriber on Jul 2, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I should mention this is a response to Jay’s:
This does smack of a three-team deal … or of a deal with a piece that is as-yet unreported.
I didn’t know how clear that was.
by The DiaTriber on Jul 2, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I was just thinking about the possibility of Lee going to Texas – I know the Rangers have had bullpen problems. Would Abreu be a realistic target?
It would seem unlikely being that he has virtually no ML experience, and it would seem they could get a ML bullpen arm at a cheaper cost, but I just wonder if Texas wanted us to sweeten the pot a llttle bit more in a deal for Lee and they’d sweeten the pot more for our return? That’s probably a pipe-dream, but something that just came to mind, being that Texas is in 2nd place in the AL West (I thought they were 1st. but only .5 game back of the Angels) and has had bullpen problems of their own, plus that recent rumor that they were interested in Lee and might have the pieces we’d want to deal Lee (Feliz and Holland, among others).
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Thinking about it a bit more, could it be Betancourt and Lee together in a package to Texas for Feliz, Holland, + 3-4 more prospects/young players on their ML roster under team control for at least 3-4 years?
I know Betancourt is injured, but he does have a solid track record, and likely is still a better bet to help that Rangers’ bullpen than Abreu would. Plus, I find it hard to believe that Abreu would seem like a realistic target to help their struggling bullpen, being that he has virtually no ML experience. Betancourt would be a better bet, and while Abreu couldn’t be expected to replace Betancourt, Betancourt was sort of teetering between set-up man and first guy out of the bullpen when he became injured. We wanted to replace Betancourt with someone we could control for a longer period of time at a cheaper cost than Betancourt, yet have comparable stuff, especially if adding him to a potential deal could help us come 2010 and beyond.
Note: This is all just a theory on my part, or speculation, based on different reports and rumors – think of it as “thinking aloud”; this is NOT fact, so please don’t take it as such. As Jay mentioned, I’m just wondering if there will be another move in response to this Meloan-Abreu trade, and what it might be. I’m wondering if a trade like the one I mentioned above would be a possibility – that’s all this post is doing – speculating.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Thank God, before I got to the disclaimer I was theorizing that you were Anthony Castrovince.
Steel Nick
This is a sound theory. Betancourt does have trade value-and the team that may want him would not have a bullpen arm to send back. Meloan’s replacement will probably be the PTBL from St. Louis in the DeRosa trade.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Meloan’s replacement? We didn’t have a limited number of slots. We need Meloan and another two or five guys, too.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Right. I should have used a disclaimer too. I was just thinking that the PTBNL is someone they already like better than Meloan, and that’s why they shipped him out.
It’s always risky to give up on young pitching-any pitching, really. The learning curve for many of them is quite steep, and it’s hard to know for sure which ones are going to learn if you give them the extra time. Even then, they sometimes follow good years with bad years. Look how long it took Cliff Lee to be consistent.
Shapiro and company probably lose a lot of sleep over these decisions.
She isn't crazy, she's just not impressed.
Three quick thoughts:
1. The FO simply thinks Meloan is not good. This is a guy who has been on the 40 man roster all year, and never has been brought up to play for a team with a horrible horrible pen!!
2. We did just clear a spot on the 40 man roster.
3. Didn’t Jay write that we shouldn’t be able to understand every move. Here you go.
No, because we have to add Abreu. But, my guess is that Herges or Ohka (or even Gosling) is now a goner.
The article gave him a jersey number. I think he’s on his way to Carnegie & Ontario.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
He is … Castro says he will slot into the big-league pen in the coming days.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 2, 2009 3:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I think they sell Winston Abreu’s (unfiltered) here in Georgia for 2 lari a pack
by APV on Jul 2, 2009 3:26 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Optimist view: we traded a crappy AAA reliever for an old, but possibly not crappy major league reliever
Pessimist view: we traded a possibly not crappy AAA reliever for an old and crappy major league reliever
I’ll tell you what … Shapiro sure knows how to drive the Cavs right off the front page of the sports section.
This move is already working. This thread is going to have more than 100 comments about the trade of a AAA reliever in less than an hour.
RESIST SHAPIROS EVIL JEDI MIND TRICKS….THESE ARE NOT THE RELIEVERS YOU ARE INTERESTED IN
by APV on Jul 2, 2009 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I’m going to wait and see. Yes, Meloan is a lot younger, and I know we all assumed he would be great after he bounced back from whatever the Dodgers did to him in trying to make him a starter, but clearly the FO did not like what they were seeing, and may have concluded that it was not going to be a simple matter.
Over his last 170 AAA innings (dating, granted, to 2005), Abreu has 241 strikeouts, 55 walks, 102 hits and 33 ER. Over Meloan’s past 164 IP, he has 148 strikeouts, 86 walks, 183 hits and 92 ER. Abreu’s never going to be awesome and I guess the FO concluded Meloan’s not going to be either. Or they’re just trying to save Wedge, but they could trade Ben Francisco for Papelbon and Nathan and it wouldn’t save this team this season.
Exactly right on Papelbon and Nathan not being able to save this season. This season is done and over with, which is why this trade for Abreu is puzzling, as this is more of an “improve now” move, unless, as Jay mentioned, it is a precursor to another move.
Speaking of Abreu, how long do we have control of him (before arbitration, FA, etc.)? Just curious.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
It’s not beyond the realm of possibility this is a long-term move. Long-term as in, he’s the better bet for the next two or three years, which is as long or longer than you should be projecting bullpen arms. We all like(d) Meloan, but obviously he had serious issues. Maybe Abreu’s got Betancourt potential as a piece on the next Indians contender. You know, next year.
I’m not sure I believe it entirely, but I could convince myself.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I don’t. I lose. Veras hasn’t played for the current clippers. But, neither has Abreu. We all lose.
by peter m on Jul 2, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We all lose.
2009!
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
Meh. Doesn’t seem worth getting upset about until it becomes clear that MeLoan was misevaluated.
If Meloan is what he looks like it doesn’t matter what he was traded for, track record be damned. When he showed up in Cleveland, I remember thinking that his velocity had dropped; I think he used to sit closer to the mid-90s and now he’s at 88-91. If that’s actually the case and it’s a structural issue, he’s not worth much.
I just have trouble getting worked up about a 25 year old reliever who’s stuff isn’t currently special and who is literally terrible over the last 18 months shipping out.
If they though Abreu was better, fine. Whatever.
I agree with you Andrew, as I mentioned above before seeing your post here – Meloan’s velocity HAS dropped.
As I’ve asked before, why is virtually every premium power arm at the top part of our farm system (Meloan, Carmona, Lewis) turning into average-velocity arms?
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
It kind of seems like this should be the other way around. The Rays would want a guy like Abreu and we’d take Meloan.
Steel Nick
I think the Rays had a roster crunch. They can stash Meloan in the minors for next year, but not Abreu.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Hold the phone! ESPN reports that Tampa Bay has traded Meloan to the Indians for Abreu. Sounds like Nickjs21 was right!
OMG!! Who is going to start for Columbus tonight?!?!?!?
by TribeJay on Jul 2, 2009 4:07 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The Rays will convince Meloan to re-drop the “h” from his first name, and he will be good again. Then we can commence being angry.
Yeah, that “h” is stupid.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m with Andrew… seems like the Dodgers sold high on Meloan, we obviously sold low… but perhaps at the end of the day, his skills are not worth worrying when you aquired/dealt him in the first place.
Keep in mind that even if we just made a horrible trade, and Meloan turns his career around, we still got Carlos Santana and this Abreu fella for half a season of Casey-Freaking-Blake.
This.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 2, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The Dodgers most assuredly did not sell high on Meloan. Look at his 2008 numbers, then look at his 2007 numbers.
In the Annual, I referred to Meloan as a “distressed asset.”
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Mark: Calm down, Paul, the fundamentals of our team are still strong, it’s just…
Paul: What?
Mark: The bullpen happened to be bad. Bullpens are unpredictable.
Paul: Yeah, the internet told me that we’d have a better bullpen randomly picking out of a hat.
Mark: Probably true. Nothing to be done about it.
Paul: Really, it’s all the bullpen? Fine, prove it. We’ve got a half a season left to do nothing. Go pull a bullpen out of hat, and we’ll see.
Mark: Um…
Paul: Pick up every guy who’s been DFA’d. Trade anybody in their last year for a reliever. A new pen by the all-star game.
Mark: Can I try Meloan?
Paul: Nope, you had your chance with him. And no LaPorta, wouldn’t be a fair comparison.
Mark: And let me guess, the stakes are…
Paul: your wedge, obviously.
by dgcambridge on Jul 2, 2009 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
I’m not upset so much about this, but I do find it interesting that he wasn’t given a chance to pitch in the bigs this year. Seems he could have exceeded as easily as he could have met low expectations. They could have pulled the very same trigger they’re pulling here.
When a guy is tanking in the minors, there is little if any reason to think he wouldn’t be tanking in the majors.
This is just common sense. People act like stuff that happened in the minors … didn’t happen … so his ERA is [null]. He was having a season, even if it wasn’t in the majors. And it was a bad season he was having.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
So that night with the “friendly girl” in The Minors that I had, I can’t just say…what happens in The Minors stays in The Minors?
by Nat on Jul 2, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
The Indians have acquired right-hander Winston Abreu from Tampa Bay. They sent the Rays right-hander John Meloan, who is pitching at Class AAA Columbus, and cash.
so we paid money to do even this out as well, huh…
i don’t know. only thing i can figure is that it’s evidence both teams think Abreu is the better guy to have…
True, and it’s a minor point, but I’d really love to understand why that is true.
by MTF on Jul 2, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, you could look at it that Meloan is higher risk and higher reward.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 2, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
/raises blanket
/peeks out from underneath blanket
/lowers blanket
by fleerdon on Jul 2, 2009 6:25 PM EDT reply actions
Neither player is a major leaguer except on a severely impaired team.
There is so little involved on both sides there is very little to get excited about.
Anybody want to guess the amount of cash that changed hands?
This deal is only about this year. Abreu is a longshot to be with the Indians in 2010.
More specifically, this deal is very short-term. The Indians have to win a few games before the All-Star break or Shapiro will almost be forced to fire Wedge then, before he gets to work his 2nd half magic
I dont really care about this move… it doesn’t really get me excited or fired up in anyway… What I do care about it this:
Now I understand this is one game and numbers dont always translate from AAA to the BIGS but come on look at Marte and Laporta and Chulkamania and you tell me that Fransico, This Aberu guy, and valgood ( Yes I think he will be a decent player eventually) shouldn’t be demoted… I mean I am not as stat savy as some on this board but looking at Lose after Lose pile up; I think these move make sense to even the casual fan.
Just doesn’t belong leading off.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 3, 2009 1:13 AM EDT up reply actions
R.J. Anderson has a short write-up of Meloan, complete with charts. The people that are a little wary of this deal—myself included—are the people who think of 2007 when they think of Meloan.
Steel Nick
In other former Indian news, David Dellucci is currently playing left field vs the Yankees.
…how desperate they must be…
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
Tallet is on the mound, Scutaro at shortstop, Johnny Mac on the bench. LGFT.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 3, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
And now you have Stark with a mildly interesting piece up that we might be looking to move Betancourt if he comes of the DL without issue. Moving Betancourt is the only subsequent deal I can imagine that makes sense in terms of “the other shoe to drop” … or even in a larger context like indiansfan suggested.
SI’s Jon Heyman (take with a huge grain of salt) on Twitter:
#indians are scouting #redsox minors. victor martinez is a longshot. but cleveland’s looking. buchholz, bowden of interest
Of course we’re scouting, I’d assume we’re constantly scouting all minor league teams. It’s logical that no one is untouchable. Trading Victor would really, really suck though.
While it stands to reason that, if the price is right, there is virtually no one “untouchable” on any team in the bigs, trading away a player like Victor wouldn’t just piss off the casual fan to no end, but I’d wager it would hurt the LGT community and other die-hard fans quite a bit, too. Maybe more than trading any other player on this team.
Il faut d'abord durer.
The list of players I would suffer serious emotional harm from losing:
Choo
Victor
Grady
Asdrubal
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
I’d be sad to see lee or Peralta go too
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 4, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
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