Betancourt traded to Rockies for RHP Connor Graham
First report trickling in.
[Updated title and link - Ryan]
UPDATE: "Graham is headed to Double-A Akron. Here's Mark Shapiro: 'Strike zone command is his area of development, clearly. But he's a guy who has power stuff. Pitching prospect depth is our greatest area of need.'" [Jay]
6 months ago
FallsTribeFan
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I’m contemplating getting loaded in the middle of the day. Trades!
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I’m pretty sure TA’s bet said Victor, Lee, OR Betancourt.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 23, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Meh. Bye Raffy. I liked you up until October of 2007.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
by mjschaefer on Jul 23, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You didn’t still llike him in March 2008?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello mjschaefer,
I’m guessing that you’re referring to that disastrous outing he had against the Red Sox in Game 7 that turned the close ballgame that it was into that blowout.
With all due respect, he pitched considerably better than both Lewis and Perez in that series (not to mention that he looks more like a sure bet to pitch better than those two currently as well). Besides that, there were other factors that led to us losing that Game 7 (Skinner’s very questionable decision to hold Lofton in the top-half of that inning, which I think, combined with Blake’s GIDP shortly thereafter took the air out of the Indians’ balloon, which is likely why Betancourt got hit hard for the first time in that series – the Red Sox didn’t touch him at all in the first 6 games, so to think there wasn’t some psychological letdown after failing to at least tie the game in the top-half is likely incorrect – I’m sure the whole team was affected, being we would still be down going into the 9th inning against a very good closer in Jonathan Papelbon – think that didn’t add some pressure to Betancourt?)
The main point is that I agree with Jay – I still liked Betancourt in early 2008, and I still like him now. As mentioned, he’s a better bet in my opinion than either Lewis or Perez to pitch effectively at this point – he has the longest track record of the three, he has arguably the best stuff of the three, and he has the best command of the three. I understand the financial reasons behind the trade (though with all due respect to Shapiro, HE’S the ONE who signed Betancourt to that deal, and not that long ago either), but as for knocking Betancourt, he’s been one of the best relievers we’ve had in some time, and we’ll be hard-pressed at this point in time to find his replacement, since I’m not convinced of Jensen’s ability to do it consistently, since he doesn’t have the same stuff Betancourt has, nor the consistent command.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Jul 23, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Blake’s GIDP explains Betancourt’s bad outing. I see.
Must be some strong stuff you’ve got.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 6:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Betancourt has never been the same since Game 7. He was completely unreliable after that season.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
by mjschaefer on Jul 23, 2009 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The spell was broken in game seven, and he never subsequently regained that awesomeness. He was terrible last year—I vaguely remember an amazing bed-crapping in Arlington in June 2008—and he insisted on throwing the same pitch over and over, even when he was getting nailed.
Once he lost that ability to throw his fastball low and away with tremendous precision and regularity, he returned to being a good but not great pitcher.
by odradek on Jul 23, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was an at-bat last year that really stuck in my craw for a long time (I had .tv back then). He threw two belt-high inside fastballs in a row to Evan Longoria-Parker, both of which he hit foul on just-miss home runs. He finally wasted a pitch, low and outside, and then went to the same spot again, and this time it was fair and gone. That was my lasting memory of Raffy all winter.
That being said, I will miss him. I won’t miss the looooong eighth innings, but he was a big part of this team for a long time. And who can forget the Last Charge of Joe Borowski and His Immortals in aught seven?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When Wedge was calling him out for not adjusting, Raffy seemed to make a point of either not adjusting, or throwing creampuffs over the plate.
by odradek on Jul 24, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s the Wedge magic. If you’re not with the program, he talks to you, and then you’re really not with the program.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boring. Salary dump. Blah.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
OK, OK, just not the excitement I was hoping for.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it’s a salary dump. But, frankly, that’s a victory for us.
And despite what some around these parts have been trying to pretend, Raffy R has not been very good any time recently.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who has been defending him?
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
by mjschaefer on Jul 23, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think if you look through the threads plenty of people are bullish on him.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have been supportive of Raffy B almost always, I will own up to that. Sadly, his performance this year in limited action was among the best of our bullpen
by Roger Dorn on Jul 23, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a difference between pretending he’s been good, and optimistic going forward.
by dgcambridge on Jul 23, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would contend that both are lousy stances from which to argue.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anything positive about this organization is a lousy stance.
by dgcambridge on Jul 23, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, the times that were.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm? How much salary are we saving here?
by dgcambridge on Jul 23, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
$5+mil if we picked up his option next year.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But we weren’t picking up that option in any event. That’s not money saved. He’s making $3.35 MM this year.
by FredOx on Jul 23, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So we save the rest of what we owe him this year I guess, probably like.. what, $1.6M or so?
*sigh*
by zempf on Jul 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we can go sign White with that money. Cuz we’re gunna need him in our pen next year (assuming he has a good showing out of ST)
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If only you could convince people that you post things like this sarcastically, you would be considered one of the funniest and smartest people on the site.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
rec. I appreciate your saying what I think, and what I currently lack the LGT track record to say
by supersizeme on Jul 23, 2009 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As long as you don’t start off on LGT by making a fanshot, you have the track record to tell Rebellion off.
by JRontherim on Jul 23, 2009 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me try:
Trading Grady while keeping Garko and BenFran gives us the best chance to contend in 2010 and beyond.
I'm not really into Song of Hiawatha.
by sarcasmdave on Jul 24, 2009 3:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mm, too obvious. You at least need to mention Garko’s RBIs.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow…I don’t know what I said to peeve you all off, or whatever, I was simply stating that with the 1.whatever mil that we saved by trading Betancourt, could be used toward helping us sign White….does that not make sense or something?
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Dolan has a problem with spending a million dollars on a rookie, he should have gone into a different business.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and of course, White won’t even cost that much.
and… you don’t spend money based on how much you just saved. That’d be like selling off your stock portfolio because you’ve lost faith in the market, then spending 2/3 of it the next day on new stocks.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say, but White’ll cost more than a million to sign. Closer to two, take it to tha bank.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have made a couple mistakes here which I will now admit:
— I don’t really pay that much attention to the signings of draft picks beyond knowing when we sign a high pick. The $$ section in the annual taught me a lot about this and I’m still learning. I did a little research since I read your reply, and found this really nice chart of 2007’s signings up to the 94th.
— I stretched the analogy in order to follow the the style of this awesome post Jay made earlier.
— I keep forgetting that we didn’t draft in the mid-20s last year… sure is nice to momentarily forget how much we sucked in 08.
I still stand by this though:
If Dolan has a problem with spending a million dollars on a rookie, he should have gone into a different business.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven’t we been spending more than a million on rookies?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was personally responding to the matter-of-fact assertion that so long as White has a good spring training, we can count on him to provide the bullpen with much needed support
by supersizeme on Jul 23, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the part about White playing in Cleveland next season is part of the problem Jay had with your point.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That, and the notion that Betancourt savings have anything to do with signing White.
The Indians — being run by serious adults (however imperfect) — have a budget for draft signings, based on overall budget priorities throughout the organization. They also have a process by which they determine for each potential pick (a) what they believe It will take to sign him, and (b) what they believe he’s worth to the organization. Any player for whom (a) is greater than (b) is removed from the draft board. When it’s time for the Indians to pick, they essentially select the guy with the highest (b) score, with minor adjustments for practical factors.
In other words, when they picked White, they did it with the intent to sign him and suitable amount of money already set aside for that purpose. They are going to sign him, and it couldn’t have less to do with trading Betancourt.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn. That was brutal Jay.
…But an actual LOL
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Stop saying that. It’s false.
That’s like saying my house was a $5 million savings, compared to the $5 million mansion I wasn’t going to buy.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
reccccccccc
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummm…that’s what I put the IF in there
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you should have bought that house, housing prices ALWAYS go up
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is it correct to state that we saved almost 1/2 year of his salary and acquired a prospect instead of simply allowing him to walk?
by elsandito on Jul 23, 2009 7:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes…ish. Letting him walk would’ve gotten us a pick, if he qualified as a B free agent. Now we get somebody we’ve seen playing below his age instead of an unknown reasonably high in the draft.
by Matt in LA on Jul 23, 2009 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Possibly. There was a strong chance that we would not have offered him arbitration.
by dgcambridge on Jul 23, 2009 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, that’s a real point. Getting Graham, right now, is clearly better than getting a second-rounder next June, plus we avoid the risk of Rafi accepting an arbitration offer, plus we save right around $2.2 million off this year’s payroll. We also saved about $3 million on DeRosa, so I’d say we’re about halfway there in terms of making up for the ticket revenue shortfall. Damned shame.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2nd round picks don’t sign for free, either
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, that, too, definitely.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn’t Betancourt making about $3.35MM this season? I figured we’d saved more like $1.4MM
by cheech99 on Jul 23, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I muffed it. Someone got that damned 5.4M figure into my head.
Your estimate is correct.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correct me if this is wrong, but, doesn’t this also give Cleveland the ability to sign Raffy as a free agent for a lot less money during the off season since he’s no longer a member of the Indians?
by elsandito on Jul 23, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, it doesn’t really. The Rockies have the right to pick up the 2010 option or decline it, and they also have the right to offer him arbitration or not. As those options play out, they have an exclusive negotiating window as well.
If he becomes a free agent (and declines arbitration if offered), then we can sign him like any other club. But we could have done that just by declining our club option and not offering arbitration, too. And if we do sign him as a free agent now, he’s the Rockies’ departing free agent, so there may be a minor draft pick lost as well.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unless he goes all Mota on us, I doubt he’ll get offered arby. That’s still a tough park to pitch in, humidor or no.
I wonder if we’d go after him if he was available. When the dust settles on the trading season, it might be high time for a discussion on how exactly to build the better bullpen.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I recall some rule stating that you cannot negotiate a salary less than some % of his former salary if it’s your own player. Wasn’t this a part of our decision to allow Lofton and/or Omar to leave?
by elsandito on Jul 24, 2009 8:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that’s the salary of the previous year, and not the option, although I could be wrong.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s actually the average annual value of his prior contract.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty sure that goes out the window when the player is a free agent. In fact, I’m pretty sure this applies only to an offer of arbitration.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Any time recently”
2007 isn’t recent enough, I take it.
Betancourt started off poorly in 2009, but has righted the ship in my opinion, especially when compared to the rest of the bullpen – even Wood hasn’t been better. The only one who’s been close to Raffy B. of late has been Sipp, who is a rookie. No one is even close – not Lewis or Perez, who keep jetting back and forth between Columbus and Cleveland, not Joe Smith (he’s not even close to what Matt Miller was doing for us back about 4-5 years ago), and not anyone else who’s been in the next spot (Kobayashi, Gosling, Veras, Abreu – wasn’t he supposed to be acquired to be part of another trade – where is that resulting trade? – whoever else you want to put in this spot).
I understand the salary reasons behind the trade, but with all due respect to Shapiro, he’s the one who signed Betancourt to that deal, not that long ago, for that amount of money, so perhaps that was more of a “faux pas” on Shapiro’s part. Has Betancourt been as good as he was in 2007? No (though I don’t think anyone expected him to be THAT good again). Has Betancourt been a good reliever, even one of our best relievers over the past 5-6 years? Yes. Will the Indians have a hard time replacing his production at this point in time? Most likely, yes, since Lewis isn’t close to Betancourt in terms of stuff, command, or track record, so if you want to applaud the trade, that’s your prerogative, but he was quite useful for several years, not to mention he’s arguably been our best reliever in 2009, and has been quite consistent for the most part since he came back from his injury. The Indians will have a harder time replacing him than you’re implying with your post, since he was more valuable than you and some others in this thread are implying.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
by indiansfan on Jul 23, 2009 6:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand the salary reasons behind the trade, but with all due respect to Shapiro, he’s the one who signed Betancourt to that deal, not that long ago, for that amount of money, so perhaps that was more of a "faux pas" on Shapiro’s part.
The deal just locked in arbitration-year salaries. There were several loud voices here foolishly complaining that it wasn’t a three-year guaranteed deal with a fourth-year option. I don’t think you can complain about a deal like this.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m on record hating Bryce Harper.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want in on this.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
by mjschaefer on Jul 23, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We’re not getting Bryce Harper.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 23, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t mean we can’t hate him.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
by mjschaefer on Jul 23, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t really understand the hate unless it’s because he said he dreamed of donning the pinstripes
by Roger Dorn on Jul 23, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s more about hating the hype
by cleveland teamer on Jul 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
definitely
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This. I dislike all high school hype stories.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
by mjschaefer on Jul 23, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did you hate Lebron James in high school?
by Roger Dorn on Jul 23, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except basketball and baseball are nothing alike?
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess. Basketball is easier to project, sure. The hype is about the same though
by Roger Dorn on Jul 23, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You bet.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
by mjschaefer on Jul 23, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t understand the hating of Bryce Harper. He’s doing what is best for him. If the Indians are in the position to draft him, they probably should.
by Cols714 on Jul 23, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get his move … makes perfect sense.
I just think the whole “LeBron James of baseball” is silly.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t hate him, just don’t want him.
by fwembt on Jul 23, 2009 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Older, (very) good K-rate, (very) bad BB-rate, lots of GBs
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 3:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=graham001con has his stats.
*sigh*
by zempf on Jul 23, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I noticed he has made improvements on both his K-rate and his BB-rate this year in A+ ball. Isn’t the California League also a hitter’s league?
by NickFantana on Jul 23, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, it’s one of the best hitter’s leagues in the minors.
by Ryan on Jul 23, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Seven homers allowed in 246.2 innings. Jensen Lewis has allowed nine homers in 39.1 innings.
by odradek on Jul 23, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s odie, always coming through with the positive spin.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of him, have we heard anything about him this year post shoulder surgery, or should I just pretend he doesn’t exist now?
*sigh*
by zempf on Jul 23, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s called giving him the Adam Miller treatment, and yes you should give him the Adam Miller treatment
by Roger Dorn on Jul 23, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The who? What?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in some ways it is much worse than the Adam Miller treatment (or should be). Adam Miller was at AAA and at least (!) his procedure was basically without precedent. Rob Bryson was at low-A, and his procedure has a long record of failures (with a few successes scattered in). Wait…who are we talking about?
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rob Bryson: He is scheduled to pitch in a sim game on Monday (July 20th) and barring any setbacks is set to start game activity on July 28th (likely in Arizona).
Last update regarding Bryson from Lastoria.
by JRontherim on Jul 23, 2009 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
eh. I think I probably would have rather seen raffy used to up the ante on a lee trade
by gmfrodo on Jul 23, 2009 3:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone want to bet the Indians convert him into a reliever ?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who walks the bases loaded in his very first ML appearance?
by peter m on Jul 23, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
…Then Wedge summons Aaron Fultz…
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
False. Fultz would be a great guy to face PUjols, as he’d actually walk him.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
all right, all right. But, there’d have to be a wild pitch in there (resulting in another run scored), plus a subsequent double steal …
by peter m on Jul 23, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well played.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s not young, but my first impression is that he’s not a bad return for Betancourt
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 3:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This was my thought. He’s got a power arm and a big body and he can pitch effectively even with huge command issues. If he can harness that, he’s probably going to make a big jump. If not, he’s a potential big arm out of the pen. Either way, we save a million and a half this year and Jay gets a $5 million mansion next year. Or something.
by junkballer on Jul 23, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bottom line, we were trading a reliever who isn’t dominant, isn’t all that cheap, and isn’t under club control beyond this season unless you’re prepared to overpay him some more. Any real prospect, even a mediocre one, is a reasonable return.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
scouting report:
Strengths – Graham’s 94-95 mph fastball and hard slider are two plus pitches that he should be able to build off of and make him very intriguing. If he could add another pitch, he’d have as high an upside as Friedrich as a starter.
Weaknesses – Two pitches alone probably won’t be enough to keep him in a starter’s role, particularly considering the slider lacks command at times. While this could limit him to the pen at the MLB level, his potential there would be next to Weathers’ in the system.
courtesy of Rocky Mountain news.
Looks like a reliever to me.
by JP_Frost on Jul 23, 2009 3:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
sounds like Raffy Perez, with a notch or two more velocity and more downward action
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh god, he’s left-handed?
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
phew. wish i had time to look into this guy.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His first two years at Miami, he was primarily a reliever, so it’s not a foreign concept.
by FredOx on Jul 23, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are we gonna sign that White guy or not?
I don’t really care much either way.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
he won’t pitch this year anyway so it might be just before the deadline.
by JP_Frost on Jul 23, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hoynes knocking it out of the park today:
Cleveland Indians will make annoucement after today’s game; Betancourt could be gone
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
STO is even more in the loop. On their own post-game show.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 23, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A fine trade. We weren’t picking up that option anyway.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Seems to have been pretty healthy, as well…26 starts and 147 innings last year is a full minor league season.
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Garko!
Benfran!
Jhonny!
Pavlove!
NOBODY ELSE.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Subtract Jhonny, add Cliff.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m on the keep Victor bandwagon.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m on the keep Clifton bandwagon.
by JulioBernazard on Jul 23, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m on the keep both bandwagon. It’s lonely.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hello, MTF, how are you today?
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we’re a silent majority.
--
Force quit and move to trash.
by vbc3 on Jul 23, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m on the make Indians better bandwagon.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, welcome aboard then.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope. You don’t make the Indians better with the status quo.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any hope of contending next year—with or without Lee or Victor—depends on a great deal of internal improvement and fortification; from guys like LaPorta, Huff, Carmona, Westbrook, Wood, Rondon, maybe Marte if Jhonny is moved. In addition to that, some sort of effective bullpen assembly. I repeat: these changes to the status quo are necessary (ir)regardless of trades.
So basically, it’s a question of whether Lee or Victor is an improvement over any potential returns. I promise you today, right now, Wade Davis and Clay Buckhype, together, will not be as good or contribute as much in 2010 as Lee and Victor. That is true of any other package you could possibly throw together. If you package both of them, and get Kershaw and Kemp, OK. But guess what? Not happening.
Wade Davis and his ilk makes the Indians better in 2011 and beyond. But don’t patronize us with the idea that we’re going to get present-day equivalent value for those two players.
Postscript! Where is this concept that we can just plug in rookie pitchers and be A-OK coming from? Unlike hitters, good starting pitchers can—and elite starting pitchers usually do—take years to develop. See Huff, David; Sabathia, Carsten; Lee, Cliff; Westbrook, Jake; Carmona, Fausto. Aaron Laffey is the exception—CC too, as he was effective right away, though not dominant.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
To sum up in a pithy, Jay-type comment:
If you want to restore pitching depth for the future, or you just get off on Shapiro prospect trades, say so. Otherwise, you’re being intellectually dishonest.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll say it this way. I think we can contend next year with or without either player.
by Roger Dorn on Jul 24, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and it may be beneficial for the years beyond 2010 to make the move now. Can we trade them and compete next year? I say yes
by Roger Dorn on Jul 24, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t see it without Lee. Where’s the pitching? It’s just not there (or at least there are so many questions that being confident we’d contend is foolhardy). With him, you at least have one person you can be relatively confident about (although injuries happen, obviously); if you can get good performances out of two other guys (Westbrook, Carmona, Laffey or Huff), and get acceptability from #s 4 and 5, then your only problem is your bullpen … This is starting to depress me.
by peter m on Jul 24, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we have starting pitching that is good enough to contend. I see teams with worse rotations in the hunt right now. The bullpen needs to be fixed, but there isn’t a whole lot separating us from being a cotender. Wedge also needs to go
by Roger Dorn on Jul 24, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which contending teams have a worse rotation than Westbrook (recovering from injury), Carmona (recovering from ?), Laffey, Huff and Sowers (or a very inexperienced Rondon?). There’s not ONE guy there you can do more than HOPE will be good next year.
Even in our own crappy division, the Tigers have Verlander and Edwin Jackson, the Sox have Buehrle. They are 2nd and 3rd in the AL in starting pitching.
I might give you the Twins, whose starting pitching hasn’t been very good. But, they’re a .500 team and are “contending” only because everyone else has been inconsistent. I guess we could contend in that sense, but I’m not counting on the Twins winning the Central this season. I’m betting on the Sox or Tigers, precisely because they have some front-line pitching to rely on.
by peter m on Jul 24, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Further, Sowers has demonstrated this year exactly what can be expected of him. There is not much reason to expect him to make a marked improvement. Huff should get better but not to the point he is much more than a 4/5 guy. Laffey walks far too many people but could, conceivably, straighten that out and become a solid #3.
Westbrook should be his usual self by next year, I do see room for being encouraged by that. God willing, we won’t see Carmona until then, so who knows with him,
The way I see it, that is one good starter (Westbrook), four question marks and then some rookies. That’s not the starting pitching we need to compete in any division other than the NL West.
by fwembt on Jul 24, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I might give you the Twins, whose starting pitching hasn’t been very good. But, they’re a .500 team and are "contending" only because everyone else has been inconsistent.
You just made my point for me. We can “contend” in this division with major weaknesses
by Roger Dorn on Jul 24, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My view is that one can expect the Sox and Tigers to play at least as well as they are now, given their pitching. The Twins, in contrast, are a good bet to play worse, since their pitching has been pretty bad. Thus, the Twins’ being in contention is mostly a mirage. Kenny Williams would trade some of their assets at this point; and he’d probably be right.
by peter m on Jul 24, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My view is that one can expect the Sox and Tigers to play at least as well as they are now, given their pitchin
g.
I just can’t get behind this. We were supposed to play at least “well” in both 2008 and 2009. It happens to everybody. The Tigers are on borrowed time with some of those pitchers.
by afh4 on Jul 24, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think we can contend without Lee, but we can content without Vic IF… IF! these things happen:
— The loss of his leadership isn’t too serious
— Carlos comes up and for all “intensive” purposes emulates Victor’s production.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 24, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is “intensive” purposes some running joke I’m not aware of?
by Logodaedalus on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not here, but in general.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Am I the only one who thinks Cliff and Vic both might collapse?
[hopes Chuck doesn’t bother to read this]
by afh4 on Jul 24, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well no. But considering their performance level, history, age, and salary – every single team in the league would and should want to take a chance on them.
To put it another way, if you draw a line at Cliff and/or Vic as being risky, how many players would qualify as being better risks? I think you would be left with the pool of 24-29 year old healthy, proven performers. Which is like saying that you only want to date supermodels with a good sense of humor.
by dgcambridge on Jul 24, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think that’s true at all. There’s all of this:
1-Vic is a catcher who suffered a major injury last year. I am not saying he’s injury prone only that if there were some kind of injury nexus for catchers, Vic is almost certainly entering it.
2-Cliff Lee’s turnaround is more or less unprecedented. I get that we’re all in love with him blah, blah, blah but if he were on another team I would be waiting for him to collapse.
Granted, concerns like this exist for many players. Still, I don’t think Cliff and Vic deserve to be sorted into the “potential HoF pile” of guys you can expect to earn their huge contracts into their 30’s. Sure, it might happen. I just don’t think it’s odds on.
by afh4 on Jul 24, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, a Lee collapse doesn’t affect us at all unless it happens to come in the next 16 months. Certainly possible; not likely—at least not as likely as the chances of a collapse during his next contract.
Obviously, catchers in their 30s are not long-term assets. No one will disagree with you there. If Martinez is somehow resigned, I’m sure it would accelerate his permanent move to first.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I’m very worried about Cliff falling apart over the next 12 months. I support moving him solely on the sell-ridiculously-high principle. Victor, I want to keep, because I don’t believe in Santana 2010.
by fleerdon on Jul 24, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I am in the trade Cliff camp, not because of anything related to contending or not in ‘10/’11 but simply because I think his value, right now, is going to be significantly higher than it will be over the 12 months.
by afh4 on Jul 24, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woah woah woah. I don’t think we can contend next year. That’s an argument for someone else, friend.
What I’M saying is since I don’t consider us as contenders either way, might as well get better for 2011.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
…And I think there’s a huge difference between what I’m saying and the point you’re railing against.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
HOWEVER! (is this catching on yet?)
Roger’s right, there’s still a chance we can compete. Anything can happen. But what I’m not saying is that trading Vic and Cliff will properly set us up to do so in 2010.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So I wasted a perfectly good diatribe on you? What a shame. We need a post with a neat summary of every poster’s official platform.
CONTRA! I acknowledge what you actually are saying, and disagree with it also. But it lends itself to much more gray area, so I don’t see the need to get in a tizzy about it.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT! I’m glad that’s settled.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do we think Shapiro gets to stick around if we play .470 ball next year?
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 24, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good stuff about young pitchers. Look at Laffey: he’s had struggles this year. I agree with Roger that it is possible to contend without Victor and Clifton, but it’s a lot less likely. Maybe it’s 5-1 with Martinez and Lee, but it’s 15-1 without them (even with Wade and Buchholz).
by odradek on Jul 24, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If our goal is to contend in 2010 and to do it at the expense of future years, then we do not trade either Vic or Cliff. However, the Dolans would like to be able to sell the product out into the future as well without having a payroll that exceeds annual revenues. This dream of theirs requires a steady trading of vets for prospects and it’s their money. So, unless you personally want to provide the added funds, learn to harness your desires.
by elsandito on Jul 24, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a corrollary to what I said to Nick above, if you think the priority should be the future, that’s fine.
Of course, if we’re in the same position this year with both guys on hand, we’re still allowed to trade them then. The return won’t be as great, but you can still get a good haul.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really read that as internal improvement and fornication….I have problems
by APV on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This isn’t one of your dirty “I have sex with the Cleveland Indians” posts.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Any chance we send him right to Akron as a reliever?
by Roger Dorn on Jul 23, 2009 3:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would say there’s not much reason not to. What does he have left to prove in A-ball?
by NickFantana on Jul 23, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t mind sending him to Akron and keeping him as a starter for the remainder of the season – then re-evaluating him in the off-season
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this might be the best plan of action.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He is 3-0 with a 0.59 ERA over his last three starts.
Either way he seems ready to move up.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 23, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Antonetti was just on Bruce Drennan’s show and said he would report to Akron, and that he could possibly be converted to bullpen work, but it didn’t sound like they were in any hurry for that to happen, so I suspect he starts for now.
"Actual versatility is a good thing. Imagined versatility is a bad thing."
Jay Levin
by woodsmeister on Jul 23, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Judging from his size, he may have eaten Matt Miller.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BRING BACK MATT MILLER.
You suck, Shapiro.
by JRontherim on Jul 23, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHO?
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 3:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
that’s my vote unless the Rays send us their whole farm system for Lee and VMart
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
God yes.
Either the big Lee deal, or getting rid of Garko/Francisco would give me plenty to enjoy today.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Literally, he hits his arb years next year.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Betancourt is a great success story. I slowly salute him.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 3:51 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Betancourt is a phenomenal success story. We got him for nothing and he gave us six seasons as a reliever, only one of them (2008) bad. In 2007 he put up one of the 10 best seasons by a reliever of the decade.
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Slow salute to Raffy B 2007. Probably the most underrated reason we almost won the World Series.
by Roger Dorn on Jul 23, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. That was a great season for Betancourt. He was terrific.
by peter m on Jul 23, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
According to fangraphs, Betancourt has been worth about 8.5 wins (based on WAR) in his Cleveland career…worth about $31M on the open market. In contrast to the ~$5.5M we’ve paid him, he has had a very fine Cleveland career.
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope we sent him off with the utmost respect and gratitude.
by junkballer on Jul 23, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Yeah yeah. I just hope that while everyone appreciates Betancourt’s good 2007, we don’t get too ahead of ourselves and forget about how talented Shin Soo is.
by joeee on Jul 23, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Last thoughts on this subject, ‘cause I’ve definitely devoted 2000x more words to this than I should have. Cliff’s gotta go for prospects, but expediting the departure of your Cy Young winnner because of post-game criticism is horrible form, in my opinion, and reflects worse on the FO than your star player questioning a bad strategy. Sorry if that got lost in dense translation.
by joeee on Jul 23, 2009 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn’t worry about it one bit. There hasn’t even been a follow-up inquiry into them that I’ve read. If we trade him, it’ll have nothing—oogatz—to do with his very mild comments. I’m not sure if Veras could get away with this much—and he might be the only one—but our man Cliff has the leverage to say much more than he already has.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you guys are both sort of missing the reality of the situation here.
The issue isn’t one or two comments. That’s just the public part, the part that we know about.
Now one possibility is that those comments were just a momentary lapse of good-teammate-ness, and that everyone knows it. Lee is a class act, not given to throwing a guy like Garko under the bus. Maybe he even approached Garko the next day to clear the air. Maybe he mentioned to Wedge, hey, you know how worked up I get, I just want to be winning more games.
That’s one possibility. The other is that the public comments were just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe in the clubhouse, away from the media, he’s made his feelings known more explicitly, and not as diplomatically. Maybe to his agent, he’s made some very specific, undiplomatic comments about what he thinks of this team and its future, and maybe his agent has been relaying those sentiments to the front office.
Granted, this is all BS on the order of reading tea leaves, but I leave it to each of you intelligent people to decide which possibility is more likely. If it’s the latter, then I think you can understand why they feel like it’s time to cash out on Lee, especailly if they think they can get 110 cents on the dollar or better.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This strikes me as ludicrous. Reading way too much into a quote, and extrapolating an entire drama out of the slimmest of facts.
It’s also possible that Lee was going through players’ pockets during games. Maybe he stole some watches. Maybe he took a swing at Larry Dolan. These too may have happened, and that’s why they’re looking to unload Cliff.
It’s also possible there wasn’t any more but this public part. It may not have been the tip of the iceberg, but the whole thing. There may have been no private betrayals. What basis do we have for assuming this wasn’t just one or two comments? (Actually, I remember there being only one.)
This strikes me as more narrative-building. Similar to when Chuck defines C.P. Lee as some sort of Chuck Norris bad ass.
by odradek on Jul 24, 2009 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Understand, I don’t claim to know what is happening behind the scenes. I do think, however, that common sense says that what someone says in public tends to be a watered-down version of what they’d say in private.
Mainly what I’m getting at here is, if Lee is traded, it won’t be because of the comments. If the comments have any connection at all, it will be only that they were an indicator of what was going on behind the scenes. It won’t have anything to do with a punitive or disciplinary element, unlike, for example, Milton Bradley’s trade.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes sense.
Not being able to know the whole story forces us to make assumptions, and to fill in the lacunae with narrative connectors. It’s understandable that we tend to extrapolate from what we think we know. But in this case, much is being made from the merest sliver of information: that Lee made a disparaging (more properly, a seemingly disparaging comment) after a game. And our version of Shapiro is of a man with ice in his veins, who will vow to dump Lee because he dared to speak intemperately. That story is hard to believe.
by odradek on Jul 24, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah, I can vaguely see that. If that be the case, maybe Cliff and/or his agent have some legitimate points.
My only serious concern is that we equal or surpass fair value for Cliff, or else keep him. I know that we’re not foolish enough to dump his salary ahead of other routes of potential cost-cutting, regardless of the attitude that Cliff and his agent may or may not have.
It would be kinda nice to kill several birds with one stone.
by jhon on Jul 24, 2009 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My only serious concern is that we equal or surpass fair value for Cliff, or else keep him.
I am confident that they will do this.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To completely renege on my shut up policy: I think this is a valid narrative. My worries, valid or not, were that a.) FO was “mad” at Cliff because he defied their ways. Like, he helps them win ballgames, but hurt their cred, which is a worse offense than being awful (Bfran, Garko in the OF, etc). Hence my diatribe about respecting his contributions. But most likely not the case. And b.) purely business: you pay to remove a guy under a time frame, or any other variable that you value other than or in addition to simply maximizing his individual trade value at any point within the next year and a half.
by joeee on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think they’re disciplined and professional enough not to make major or even minor decisions out of anger.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm… I don’t know. Let’s sign Shawn Chacon and see what happens.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 6:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goldstein described him as “a massive and intimidating presence on the mound, with a pure power arsenal that begins with a fastball that sits at 92-95 mph and touches 97.” And “a big guy with long levers.” From the top 11 article (he was 8).
by dgcambridge on Jul 23, 2009 3:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
listed as 6’6", 235. This guy definitely sounds like a bullpen conversion.
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 3:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hopefully the Indians guys see something in his delivery that can be tweeked to cut down on those walks.
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s hot right now: In three July starts, 15.1 IP, 1 ER, 4 BB, 24 K!
by dgcambridge on Jul 23, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BP said this before the season:
“is a mountain of a man who can touch 97 mph and who limited Sally League hitters to a .189 batting average, but he also hands out walks like a politician making promises.”
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shapiro can’t contain himself with these high walk rate relievers
by Roger Dorn on Jul 23, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There certainly seems to be a fixation on “power arms” in 2009.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hooray! more walks!
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
atleast it’s another live arm. I’m a believer of stuffing your pen with these type of guys and see who sticks.
by JP_Frost on Jul 23, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wanted David Aardsma a few years ago. Just pile it high with live arms.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 23, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so are teh Rockies fans p—sed?
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
doubt it….they were pretty desperate for relief pitching.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
early survey says no, definitely not.
by dgcambridge on Jul 23, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why would they be? They just got a major league reliever for an A ball pitcher. They should be pretty happy about that. That being said, I’m glad the Indians were able to turn Raffy R into something interesting, at least.
by Cols714 on Jul 23, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s kind of like when we got Kenny Lofton. You forgive giving up high-ceiling A-ball talent when you’re in contention and need something now.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 23, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Rockies have had some top shelf pitching prospects at the upper levels (and graduated) recently. The fans aren’t going to worry about someone down the list like this.
by dgcambridge on Jul 23, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why, Dave, I didn’t know you cared. Now we definitely have to grab Adam so we can wistfully ruminate about 2007 while Raffy sucks for the Rockies .
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Juan Cruz was a type A free agent this past year, would it be crazy to expect Raffy to be one as well?
by millionairesrow on Jul 23, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I think a Detroit Tigers fan runs his own numbers on the Elias Rankings … and Raffy B slid in as a B.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Woah! Buehrle.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
they could use a switch hitting C/1B, and they’d be well off to give up the farm for one.
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jul 23, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I swear to God that Gameday said Kapler hit a double.
by FredOx on Jul 23, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it was out.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the White Sox more than anything, but for some reason I kinda like Buehrle.
*sigh*
by zempf on Jul 23, 2009 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
same
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. I can’t explain it.
Or maybe it started that time when he got reprimanded for having fun during rain delays.
by still ill on Jul 23, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed. Way to rain on his parade… cough
"be where you are when you're there"
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 23, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s like you needed something that still looked like a subject line.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just to get a reaction. WIN
"be where you are when you're there"
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 24, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re going to end up getting one you don’t like. LOSS
by junkballer on Jul 24, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like the unashamed fanboy in him that wants to pitch for the Cardinals so badly.
by CBusSteve on Jul 23, 2009 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too. And how he talks about it when he’s downstate.
by odradek on Jul 23, 2009 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, clearly, the Rays need more offense, right? But also, pitching is good. Maybe they should trade us a ton of young players for Victor and Cliff?
by NickFantana on Jul 23, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, clearly, the Rays need more offense, right? But also, pitching is good. Maybe they should trade us a ton of young players forVictor and Cliff?Benfran, Garko and Jhonny
fixed
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was a hell of a catch by Wise in CF to save the perfect game (and shutout). Probably the play of the year in baseball considering the situation.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 23, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, topping Rowand’s to preserve Sanchez.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will never forgive Juan Uribe for ruining a once in a lifetime opportunity.
by JRontherim on Jul 23, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dear Tampa,
Victor is .339 off of Buehrle lifetime.
by JRontherim on Jul 23, 2009 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.purplerow.com/2009/7/23/960193/colorado-rockies-trade-for-rafael is the Rockies’ SBNation blog take on it, if anyone’s curious. Warning: contains subject lines.
*sigh*
by zempf on Jul 23, 2009 4:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The main thing I learned from this blog is that the Rockies have a player named Christian Colonel. Now, there’s a name!
by peter m on Jul 23, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blue Jays just DFA’d David Delucci.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 4:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Did Delucci then complain about what jerks the Jays fans were?
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can only hope so…the guy’s a baby.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there are Jays fans??
"be where you are when you're there"
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 23, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea who that is, and I really don’t give a $%@#.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 23, 2009 4:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Trades that don’t involve once great relievers. I want shiny new sluggers or heads rolling in the FO. I don’t have time or energy for anything else.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 23, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Buehrle threw a perfect game. Good on him, but I’m not sure I’ll ever recover from listening to those ridiculous Sox TV guys making the final call (excerpt: YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!).
by FredOx on Jul 23, 2009 4:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Listened to it on the radio for that very reason. I wish I’d seen Wise’s catch, but hearing Harrelson makes me want to kill things.
*sigh*
by zempf on Jul 23, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
trade the whole team including the Manager and GM.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 23, 2009 4:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
http://www.pitchingclips.com/players/connor_graham.htm
video of Graham pitching. He’s huge.
by JP_Frost on Jul 23, 2009 4:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
either that, or he’s pitching on a girls softball field
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh great, so now we have a cheater in the system.
by JP_Frost on Jul 23, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought the paragraph below FREE NEWSLETTER started with palcal when I saw it out of the corner of my eye
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My first reaction — great, we got Luis Perdomo back.
Second reaction — Indians essentially just stockpiling pure, dominating stuff for bullpen options, in the hopes that a few will develop control. Not sure what I think of this, but I have to admit that you can’t do it the other way around.
Third reaction — this guy was already a relief prospect, he was just in the rotation to pile up innings and experience. We knew Perez was a reliever a year or more before he actually moved to the pen, and this guy looks the same.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Perdomo doesn’t wear glasses.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 4:33 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Fourth reaction — couldn’t we have gotten Heather Graham? Or at least Lauren Graham?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I agree with those points. Ultimately, it comes down to what I think you mentioned earlier— the trade was little more than a salary dump; we weren’t going to exercise his option, and it appears this guy has an ostensible upside. Not much to lose, and something potentially to be gained. That being said, having watched the bullpen this year, I’m still weary of acquiring (more) pitchers with a weak grasp of the strike zone
by supersizeme on Jul 23, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just so we’re all prepared Raffy is going to be lights out for COL.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 4:32 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
IN
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we just got Brickrolled.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
hahaha
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how did I miss this before?
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the kind of analysis I show up for.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 4:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
More disappointed nobody else showed up to finish it.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
of course. I’m actually rooting for the Rockies to win the division now. Dbacks are my favorite NL West team, but Rockies are next.
by JP_Frost on Jul 23, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IN
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taking no chances, I see. Fair enough.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One Village People reference a day is one too many.
by cajones on Jul 23, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my autorefresh is broken at the moment. we’re not doing so good with this.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THE
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently, nobody can reply to the “FOR” comment without it getting shunted to the bottom.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I recced this. Where else are we able to use such bad puns in everyday life?
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 24, 2009 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
it’s stupid to get attached to players but man, i’m gonna miss his slow ass delivery. the foot tap, the foot tap!
by hyphens on Jul 23, 2009 4:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I won’t miss it. We all got back a few hours of our lives today.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castro has an update saying Graham is going to Akron. Some nice quotes from Betancourt too. No link, I’m mobile. Sorry.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 4:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
“All these years, to be able to pitch here, was very good,” he said. “You see a lot of relievers go around a lot. To be here seven years makes me proud.”
http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/07/betancourt_traded_to_rockies_f.html
by JP_Frost on Jul 23, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Step 1: Trade Betancourt.
Step 2: Collect underpants.
Step 3: ?
Step 4: Championship!
Lead singer and driver of the Winnebago.
by Fredward on Jul 23, 2009 4:48 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Step 5: Profit!
I still believe in Carl Pavano.
by salome on Jul 23, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So I was down at Muni to protest a parking ticket yesterday morning, and I bring some dice to pass the time. Some other guys were waiting, we start shooting craps. Security guard walks by, says, “You guys are idiots. You should never Betancourt.”
Later, Iron.
by fleerdon on Jul 23, 2009 4:55 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Back to Bar/Bri for you….
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So what happens to the Fist of Iron/Fist of Steel dynamic?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 7:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
didn’t that basically die after 07?
by JP_Frost on Jul 24, 2009 10:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It died along with Betancourt’s ability to locate.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Next year we’ll need a Perez thing. Let’s give it time and let it develop naturally.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 24, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll never forgive Shapiro for screwing up my Bullpen Venn Diagram. Gen another Raffy, stat!
by FredOx on Jul 24, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perez vs. Perez.
That ought to be Jay’s face on the bottom, photoshop mavens.
by afh4 on Jul 24, 2009 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rockies picking up the rest of the salary owed this year? Sorry if it’s been posted.
by cheech99 on Jul 23, 2009 4:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That would only be newsworthy if the Indians were picking up the rest of Raffy’s salary.
by FredOx on Jul 23, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
200+ comments on the trade of a reliever who was really good two years ago for a 23 year old pitcher from the California League. Wow, we’re desperate.
by FredOx on Jul 23, 2009 4:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
indeed we are, but these coming days/weeks could possibly be the highlight of the season.
by JP_Frost on Jul 23, 2009 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Betancourt’s next year on his contract seems like a huge albatross. I can’t imagine any team paying his 5.4 million dollar option for a (maybe) setup guy. Who knows though, maybe he goes to the NL and dominates like Muijica has (last I checked).
Maybe we can get Raffy B back for a cheaper price next year (slim chance).
by Toxicadam on Jul 23, 2009 5:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I still believe in Carl Pavano.
by salome on Jul 23, 2009 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hah, I forgot about this potential impact of a Raffy deal.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You cold-hearted bean counters. Never considering the human cost of these transactions.
I guess I need to make an ice cream stop on the way home tonight.
--
Force quit and move to trash.
by vbc3 on Jul 23, 2009 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe get out your Rascal Flatts CD so you put “What Hurts The Most” on repeat?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I’ll be pre-empted by a Joy Division marathon.
--
Force quit and move to trash.
by vbc3 on Jul 23, 2009 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I knew it! Actually, I guessed the Smiths.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve had Closer on repeat all evening.
I still believe in Carl Pavano.
by salome on Jul 24, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got a Tagalong Blizzard!
I still believe in Carl Pavano.
by salome on Jul 23, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding Graham
I was a student at Miami and lived in Oxford for some time after graduating (its an awesome place). I’m quite familiar with Graham, and saw him pitch all three years at Miami. Along with Graham, Miami had other highly drafted pitchers, including Keith Weiser (2nd round), John Ely (3rd round), Matt Long (2nd round), Graham Taylor (10th round). Connor Graham was the most talented of the group, but he was inconsistent and his poise on the mound was inferior to the others. The first time I saw him was his freshman year as a reliever. He came out throwing 91-95 MPH and showed a hard biting, tightly spun, yet inconsistent, breaking ball — the type of breaking ball that snapped. I thought I was looking at a future first round pick. Over time, the more I saw of him, the more his inconsistencies showed and he was clearly not a future 1st rounder.
I thought Graham was the type of pitcher that would do much better vs. wooden bats b/c his stuff had good, hard late breaking movement and that he was unlikely to ever make it as a starting pitcher unless he demonstrated vast improvement in mechanical consistencies, and development of a change-up. His mechanics weren’t pretty, nor was his arm action. He isn’t particularly athletic, and I thought that he would always have problems with control. I thought that he went in the draft exactly where he should have; the 5th round. Over my time watching him pitch for three years, overall, I was disappointed in his lack of development. He was the most talented pitcher to come through the program at Miami (which says a lot b/c they had legit pitching prospects there). His stuff is first class, but mechanics weren’t great and I questioned his mound presence. It was always clear to me that he profiled the best as a back-end bullpen guy, but inconsistent mechanics and less than ideal mound presence negated this profile projection. I don’t recall being too impressed with him in pressure situations. This is why, I believe, this pitcher that had clear potential to be a late 1st rounder to 3rd rounder went in the 5th round.
It’s clear that Graham is a bullpen guy. The Indians will move him there soon, if not immediately. I’ve always been intrigued by him, and if you get enough of these hard throwing relievers, a few of them will end up panning out. I believe he is a better relief prospect than Zach Putnam, for comparison’s sake, but I’ve never liked Putnam :)
by OhioTommy on Jul 23, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
The rare appropriate use of the subject field. Well done all-around.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great post.
My cousin however would respectfully disagree with your opinion of Oxford.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 23, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a shame that I didn’t make it to a single game at Miami in my four years there. It turns out that my time there overlapped with Graham’s. I often noticed tall guys walking through Uptown with icepacks tethered to their arms; we’ve probably all crossed paths before and not realized it.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Class of 97, Miami (OH) proud.
I still remember Tony Pena’s game-winning ALDS Game 1 blast in 95 against Boston at Stadium on south Poplar. 2 beautiful ironies about that game.
(1) – Miami (OH) alum Tim Naehring put the BoSox up in extras before Belle tied it in the bottom half (I think that’s what happened… Naehring went to Miami if I’m remembering correctly
(2) – The bouncer at Stadium was a dead ringer for Mo Vaughn. Just pure comedy when bedlam ensued after Pena won it. as he tried to restore order as glasses were broken all around
by cheech99 on Jul 23, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tell people about the $1 natty pitchers at stadium all the time, but no one ever believes me.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There was a happy hour at a pool hall in my college town, that sold $0.25 glasses or $1.50 pitchers of all tap beers, including Michelob Dark. You had to hold onto the pitchers tho, cause if it went empty, somebody else picked it up.
Amazingly enough, the happy hour was from 3-7 on Wed AND Fri afternoons.
Good times.
by talonk on Jul 23, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
STRAIGHT TALKIN’!
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jul 24, 2009 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What does this do to innocence west of the Mississippi? That’s what I want to know.
by fwembt on Jul 23, 2009 11:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good question. I think their innocence goes unchanged, since it was our national innocence that was destroyed.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s too bad Raffy’s 07 didn’t end with him celebrating on Colorado’s field as a visitor.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
by westbrook on Jul 23, 2009 11:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Too soon.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 24, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ll never think this wasn’t the way it was supposed to happen.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 24, 2009 4:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does this mean our national innocence has been restored?
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 24, 2009 9:42 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Of course not. It’s the national innocence. He still ruined it, he’s just not ruining it from Cleveland anymore.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anyone else find it amusing to learn that Jim Parque, of all people, was using HGH?
by peter m on Jul 24, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Holy cow. He looked just like my pastor, too.
by junkballer on Jul 24, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, then your pastor is a juicer, too.
by odradek on Jul 24, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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