Betancourt traded to Rockies for RHP Connor Graham
First report trickling in.
[Updated title and link - Ryan]
UPDATE: "Graham is headed to Double-A Akron. Here's Mark Shapiro: 'Strike zone command is his area of development, clearly. But he's a guy who has power stuff. Pitching prospect depth is our greatest area of need.'" [Jay]
over 2 years ago
FallsTribeFan
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I’m contemplating getting loaded in the middle of the day. Trades!
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions
Meh. Bye Raffy. I liked you up until October of 2007.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Hello mjschaefer,
I’m guessing that you’re referring to that disastrous outing he had against the Red Sox in Game 7 that turned the close ballgame that it was into that blowout.
With all due respect, he pitched considerably better than both Lewis and Perez in that series (not to mention that he looks more like a sure bet to pitch better than those two currently as well). Besides that, there were other factors that led to us losing that Game 7 (Skinner’s very questionable decision to hold Lofton in the top-half of that inning, which I think, combined with Blake’s GIDP shortly thereafter took the air out of the Indians’ balloon, which is likely why Betancourt got hit hard for the first time in that series – the Red Sox didn’t touch him at all in the first 6 games, so to think there wasn’t some psychological letdown after failing to at least tie the game in the top-half is likely incorrect – I’m sure the whole team was affected, being we would still be down going into the 9th inning against a very good closer in Jonathan Papelbon – think that didn’t add some pressure to Betancourt?)
The main point is that I agree with Jay – I still liked Betancourt in early 2008, and I still like him now. As mentioned, he’s a better bet in my opinion than either Lewis or Perez to pitch effectively at this point – he has the longest track record of the three, he has arguably the best stuff of the three, and he has the best command of the three. I understand the financial reasons behind the trade (though with all due respect to Shapiro, HE’S the ONE who signed Betancourt to that deal, and not that long ago either), but as for knocking Betancourt, he’s been one of the best relievers we’ve had in some time, and we’ll be hard-pressed at this point in time to find his replacement, since I’m not convinced of Jensen’s ability to do it consistently, since he doesn’t have the same stuff Betancourt has, nor the consistent command.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Betancourt has never been the same since Game 7. He was completely unreliable after that season.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
The spell was broken in game seven, and he never subsequently regained that awesomeness. He was terrible last year—I vaguely remember an amazing bed-crapping in Arlington in June 2008—and he insisted on throwing the same pitch over and over, even when he was getting nailed.
Once he lost that ability to throw his fastball low and away with tremendous precision and regularity, he returned to being a good but not great pitcher.
There was an at-bat last year that really stuck in my craw for a long time (I had .tv back then). He threw two belt-high inside fastballs in a row to Evan Longoria-Parker, both of which he hit foul on just-miss home runs. He finally wasted a pitch, low and outside, and then went to the same spot again, and this time it was fair and gone. That was my lasting memory of Raffy all winter.
That being said, I will miss him. I won’t miss the looooong eighth innings, but he was a big part of this team for a long time. And who can forget the Last Charge of Joe Borowski and His Immortals in aught seven?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
When Wedge was calling him out for not adjusting, Raffy seemed to make a point of either not adjusting, or throwing creampuffs over the plate.
Boring. Salary dump. Blah.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:34 PM EDT reply actions
OK, OK, just not the excitement I was hoping for.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it’s a salary dump. But, frankly, that’s a victory for us.
And despite what some around these parts have been trying to pretend, Raffy R has not been very good any time recently.
Who has been defending him?
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Oh, the times that were.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions
$5+mil if we picked up his option next year.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions
But we weren’t picking up that option in any event. That’s not money saved. He’s making $3.35 MM this year.
we can go sign White with that money. Cuz we’re gunna need him in our pen next year (assuming he has a good showing out of ST)
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If only you could convince people that you post things like this sarcastically, you would be considered one of the funniest and smartest people on the site.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
As long as you don’t start off on LGT by making a fanshot, you have the track record to tell Rebellion off.
Wow…I don’t know what I said to peeve you all off, or whatever, I was simply stating that with the 1.whatever mil that we saved by trading Betancourt, could be used toward helping us sign White….does that not make sense or something?
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
If Dolan has a problem with spending a million dollars on a rookie, he should have gone into a different business.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
and of course, White won’t even cost that much.
and… you don’t spend money based on how much you just saved. That’d be like selling off your stock portfolio because you’ve lost faith in the market, then spending 2/3 of it the next day on new stocks.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say, but White’ll cost more than a million to sign. Closer to two, take it to tha bank.
I have made a couple mistakes here which I will now admit:
— I don’t really pay that much attention to the signings of draft picks beyond knowing when we sign a high pick. The $$ section in the annual taught me a lot about this and I’m still learning. I did a little research since I read your reply, and found this really nice chart of 2007’s signings up to the 94th.
— I stretched the analogy in order to follow the the style of this awesome post Jay made earlier.
— I keep forgetting that we didn’t draft in the mid-20s last year… sure is nice to momentarily forget how much we sucked in 08.
I still stand by this though:
If Dolan has a problem with spending a million dollars on a rookie, he should have gone into a different business.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
Haven’t we been spending more than a million on rookies?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the part about White playing in Cleveland next season is part of the problem Jay had with your point.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions
That, and the notion that Betancourt savings have anything to do with signing White.
The Indians — being run by serious adults (however imperfect) — have a budget for draft signings, based on overall budget priorities throughout the organization. They also have a process by which they determine for each potential pick (a) what they believe It will take to sign him, and (b) what they believe he’s worth to the organization. Any player for whom (a) is greater than (b) is removed from the draft board. When it’s time for the Indians to pick, they essentially select the guy with the highest (b) score, with minor adjustments for practical factors.
In other words, when they picked White, they did it with the intent to sign him and suitable amount of money already set aside for that purpose. They are going to sign him, and it couldn’t have less to do with trading Betancourt.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Damn. That was brutal Jay.
…But an actual LOL
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Stop saying that. It’s false.
That’s like saying my house was a $5 million savings, compared to the $5 million mansion I wasn’t going to buy.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 23, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
ummm…that’s what I put the IF in there
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
you should have bought that house, housing prices ALWAYS go up
by APV on Jul 23, 2009 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is it correct to state that we saved almost 1/2 year of his salary and acquired a prospect instead of simply allowing him to walk?
Yes…ish. Letting him walk would’ve gotten us a pick, if he qualified as a B free agent. Now we get somebody we’ve seen playing below his age instead of an unknown reasonably high in the draft.
Yeah, that’s a real point. Getting Graham, right now, is clearly better than getting a second-rounder next June, plus we avoid the risk of Rafi accepting an arbitration offer, plus we save right around $2.2 million off this year’s payroll. We also saved about $3 million on DeRosa, so I’d say we’re about halfway there in terms of making up for the ticket revenue shortfall. Damned shame.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Correct me if this is wrong, but, doesn’t this also give Cleveland the ability to sign Raffy as a free agent for a lot less money during the off season since he’s no longer a member of the Indians?
No, it doesn’t really. The Rockies have the right to pick up the 2010 option or decline it, and they also have the right to offer him arbitration or not. As those options play out, they have an exclusive negotiating window as well.
If he becomes a free agent (and declines arbitration if offered), then we can sign him like any other club. But we could have done that just by declining our club option and not offering arbitration, too. And if we do sign him as a free agent now, he’s the Rockies’ departing free agent, so there may be a minor draft pick lost as well.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Unless he goes all Mota on us, I doubt he’ll get offered arby. That’s still a tough park to pitch in, humidor or no.
I wonder if we’d go after him if he was available. When the dust settles on the trading season, it might be high time for a discussion on how exactly to build the better bullpen.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I recall some rule stating that you cannot negotiate a salary less than some % of his former salary if it’s your own player. Wasn’t this a part of our decision to allow Lofton and/or Omar to leave?
I believe that’s the salary of the previous year, and not the option, although I could be wrong.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
“Any time recently”
2007 isn’t recent enough, I take it.
Betancourt started off poorly in 2009, but has righted the ship in my opinion, especially when compared to the rest of the bullpen – even Wood hasn’t been better. The only one who’s been close to Raffy B. of late has been Sipp, who is a rookie. No one is even close – not Lewis or Perez, who keep jetting back and forth between Columbus and Cleveland, not Joe Smith (he’s not even close to what Matt Miller was doing for us back about 4-5 years ago), and not anyone else who’s been in the next spot (Kobayashi, Gosling, Veras, Abreu – wasn’t he supposed to be acquired to be part of another trade – where is that resulting trade? – whoever else you want to put in this spot).
I understand the salary reasons behind the trade, but with all due respect to Shapiro, he’s the one who signed Betancourt to that deal, not that long ago, for that amount of money, so perhaps that was more of a “faux pas” on Shapiro’s part. Has Betancourt been as good as he was in 2007? No (though I don’t think anyone expected him to be THAT good again). Has Betancourt been a good reliever, even one of our best relievers over the past 5-6 years? Yes. Will the Indians have a hard time replacing his production at this point in time? Most likely, yes, since Lewis isn’t close to Betancourt in terms of stuff, command, or track record, so if you want to applaud the trade, that’s your prerogative, but he was quite useful for several years, not to mention he’s arguably been our best reliever in 2009, and has been quite consistent for the most part since he came back from his injury. The Indians will have a harder time replacing him than you’re implying with your post, since he was more valuable than you and some others in this thread are implying.
Just my 2 cents.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I understand the salary reasons behind the trade, but with all due respect to Shapiro, he’s the one who signed Betancourt to that deal, not that long ago, for that amount of money, so perhaps that was more of a "faux pas" on Shapiro’s part.
The deal just locked in arbitration-year salaries. There were several loud voices here foolishly complaining that it wasn’t a three-year guaranteed deal with a fourth-year option. I don’t think you can complain about a deal like this.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I’m on record hating Bryce Harper.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t mean we can’t hate him.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
I think it’s more about hating the hype
by cleveland teamer on Jul 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Except basketball and baseball are nothing alike?
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand the hating of Bryce Harper. He’s doing what is best for him. If the Indians are in the position to draft him, they probably should.
I get his move … makes perfect sense.
I just think the whole “LeBron James of baseball” is silly.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I noticed he has made improvements on both his K-rate and his BB-rate this year in A+ ball. Isn’t the California League also a hitter’s league?
Speaking of him, have we heard anything about him this year post shoulder surgery, or should I just pretend he doesn’t exist now?
*sigh*
It’s called giving him the Adam Miller treatment, and yes you should give him the Adam Miller treatment
in some ways it is much worse than the Adam Miller treatment (or should be). Adam Miller was at AAA and at least (!) his procedure was basically without precedent. Rob Bryson was at low-A, and his procedure has a long record of failures (with a few successes scattered in). Wait…who are we talking about?
Anyone want to bet the Indians convert him into a reliever ?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
False. Fultz would be a great guy to face PUjols, as he’d actually walk him.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
all right, all right. But, there’d have to be a wild pitch in there (resulting in another run scored), plus a subsequent double steal …
This was my thought. He’s got a power arm and a big body and he can pitch effectively even with huge command issues. If he can harness that, he’s probably going to make a big jump. If not, he’s a potential big arm out of the pen. Either way, we save a million and a half this year and Jay gets a $5 million mansion next year. Or something.
scouting report:
Strengths – Graham’s 94-95 mph fastball and hard slider are two plus pitches that he should be able to build off of and make him very intriguing. If he could add another pitch, he’d have as high an upside as Friedrich as a starter.
Weaknesses – Two pitches alone probably won’t be enough to keep him in a starter’s role, particularly considering the slider lacks command at times. While this could limit him to the pen at the MLB level, his potential there would be next to Weathers’ in the system.
courtesy of Rocky Mountain news.
Looks like a reliever to me.
Hoynes knocking it out of the park today:
Cleveland Indians will make annoucement after today’s game; Betancourt could be gone
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:41 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Subtract Jhonny, add Cliff.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m on the keep Victor bandwagon.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m on the keep both bandwagon. It’s lonely.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, welcome aboard then.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Any hope of contending next year—with or without Lee or Victor—depends on a great deal of internal improvement and fortification; from guys like LaPorta, Huff, Carmona, Westbrook, Wood, Rondon, maybe Marte if Jhonny is moved. In addition to that, some sort of effective bullpen assembly. I repeat: these changes to the status quo are necessary (ir)regardless of trades.
So basically, it’s a question of whether Lee or Victor is an improvement over any potential returns. I promise you today, right now, Wade Davis and Clay Buckhype, together, will not be as good or contribute as much in 2010 as Lee and Victor. That is true of any other package you could possibly throw together. If you package both of them, and get Kershaw and Kemp, OK. But guess what? Not happening.
Wade Davis and his ilk makes the Indians better in 2011 and beyond. But don’t patronize us with the idea that we’re going to get present-day equivalent value for those two players.
Postscript! Where is this concept that we can just plug in rookie pitchers and be A-OK coming from? Unlike hitters, good starting pitchers can—and elite starting pitchers usually do—take years to develop. See Huff, David; Sabathia, Carsten; Lee, Cliff; Westbrook, Jake; Carmona, Fausto. Aaron Laffey is the exception—CC too, as he was effective right away, though not dominant.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
To sum up in a pithy, Jay-type comment:
If you want to restore pitching depth for the future, or you just get off on Shapiro prospect trades, say so. Otherwise, you’re being intellectually dishonest.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
and it may be beneficial for the years beyond 2010 to make the move now. Can we trade them and compete next year? I say yes
I don’t see it without Lee. Where’s the pitching? It’s just not there (or at least there are so many questions that being confident we’d contend is foolhardy). With him, you at least have one person you can be relatively confident about (although injuries happen, obviously); if you can get good performances out of two other guys (Westbrook, Carmona, Laffey or Huff), and get acceptability from #s 4 and 5, then your only problem is your bullpen … This is starting to depress me.
I think we have starting pitching that is good enough to contend. I see teams with worse rotations in the hunt right now. The bullpen needs to be fixed, but there isn’t a whole lot separating us from being a cotender. Wedge also needs to go
Which contending teams have a worse rotation than Westbrook (recovering from injury), Carmona (recovering from ?), Laffey, Huff and Sowers (or a very inexperienced Rondon?). There’s not ONE guy there you can do more than HOPE will be good next year.
Even in our own crappy division, the Tigers have Verlander and Edwin Jackson, the Sox have Buehrle. They are 2nd and 3rd in the AL in starting pitching.
I might give you the Twins, whose starting pitching hasn’t been very good. But, they’re a .500 team and are “contending” only because everyone else has been inconsistent. I guess we could contend in that sense, but I’m not counting on the Twins winning the Central this season. I’m betting on the Sox or Tigers, precisely because they have some front-line pitching to rely on.
Further, Sowers has demonstrated this year exactly what can be expected of him. There is not much reason to expect him to make a marked improvement. Huff should get better but not to the point he is much more than a 4/5 guy. Laffey walks far too many people but could, conceivably, straighten that out and become a solid #3.
Westbrook should be his usual self by next year, I do see room for being encouraged by that. God willing, we won’t see Carmona until then, so who knows with him,
The way I see it, that is one good starter (Westbrook), four question marks and then some rookies. That’s not the starting pitching we need to compete in any division other than the NL West.
I might give you the Twins, whose starting pitching hasn’t been very good. But, they’re a .500 team and are "contending" only because everyone else has been inconsistent.
You just made my point for me. We can “contend” in this division with major weaknesses
My view is that one can expect the Sox and Tigers to play at least as well as they are now, given their pitching. The Twins, in contrast, are a good bet to play worse, since their pitching has been pretty bad. Thus, the Twins’ being in contention is mostly a mirage. Kenny Williams would trade some of their assets at this point; and he’d probably be right.
I don’t think we can contend without Lee, but we can content without Vic IF… IF! these things happen:
— The loss of his leadership isn’t too serious
— Carlos comes up and for all “intensive” purposes emulates Victor’s production.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
is “intensive” purposes some running joke I’m not aware of?
by Logodaedalus on Jul 24, 2009 1:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I the only one who thinks Cliff and Vic both might collapse?
[hopes Chuck doesn’t bother to read this]
Well no. But considering their performance level, history, age, and salary – every single team in the league would and should want to take a chance on them.
To put it another way, if you draw a line at Cliff and/or Vic as being risky, how many players would qualify as being better risks? I think you would be left with the pool of 24-29 year old healthy, proven performers. Which is like saying that you only want to date supermodels with a good sense of humor.
by dgcambridge on Jul 24, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think that’s true at all. There’s all of this:
1-Vic is a catcher who suffered a major injury last year. I am not saying he’s injury prone only that if there were some kind of injury nexus for catchers, Vic is almost certainly entering it.
2-Cliff Lee’s turnaround is more or less unprecedented. I get that we’re all in love with him blah, blah, blah but if he were on another team I would be waiting for him to collapse.
Granted, concerns like this exist for many players. Still, I don’t think Cliff and Vic deserve to be sorted into the “potential HoF pile” of guys you can expect to earn their huge contracts into their 30’s. Sure, it might happen. I just don’t think it’s odds on.
Well, a Lee collapse doesn’t affect us at all unless it happens to come in the next 16 months. Certainly possible; not likely—at least not as likely as the chances of a collapse during his next contract.
Obviously, catchers in their 30s are not long-term assets. No one will disagree with you there. If Martinez is somehow resigned, I’m sure it would accelerate his permanent move to first.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I’m very worried about Cliff falling apart over the next 12 months. I support moving him solely on the sell-ridiculously-high principle. Victor, I want to keep, because I don’t believe in Santana 2010.
by fleerdon on Jul 24, 2009 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Woah woah woah. I don’t think we can contend next year. That’s an argument for someone else, friend.
What I’M saying is since I don’t consider us as contenders either way, might as well get better for 2011.
Steel Nick
…And I think there’s a huge difference between what I’m saying and the point you’re railing against.
Steel Nick
HOWEVER! (is this catching on yet?)
Roger’s right, there’s still a chance we can compete. Anything can happen. But what I’m not saying is that trading Vic and Cliff will properly set us up to do so in 2010.
Steel Nick
So I wasted a perfectly good diatribe on you? What a shame. We need a post with a neat summary of every poster’s official platform.
CONTRA! I acknowledge what you actually are saying, and disagree with it also. But it lends itself to much more gray area, so I don’t see the need to get in a tizzy about it.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
If our goal is to contend in 2010 and to do it at the expense of future years, then we do not trade either Vic or Cliff. However, the Dolans would like to be able to sell the product out into the future as well without having a payroll that exceeds annual revenues. This dream of theirs requires a steady trading of vets for prospects and it’s their money. So, unless you personally want to provide the added funds, learn to harness your desires.
In a corrollary to what I said to Nick above, if you think the priority should be the future, that’s fine.
Of course, if we’re in the same position this year with both guys on hand, we’re still allowed to trade them then. The return won’t be as great, but you can still get a good haul.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t mind sending him to Akron and keeping him as a starter for the remainder of the season – then re-evaluating him in the off-season
I think this might be the best plan of action.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Antonetti was just on Bruce Drennan’s show and said he would report to Akron, and that he could possibly be converted to bullpen work, but it didn’t sound like they were in any hurry for that to happen, so I suspect he starts for now.
"Actual versatility is a good thing. Imagined versatility is a bad thing."
Jay Levin
by woodsmeister on Jul 23, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Judging from his size, he may have eaten Matt Miller.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
that’s my vote unless the Rays send us their whole farm system for Lee and VMart
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Betancourt is a great success story. I slowly salute him.
by jhon on Jul 23, 2009 3:51 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
Betancourt is a phenomenal success story. We got him for nothing and he gave us six seasons as a reliever, only one of them (2008) bad. In 2007 he put up one of the 10 best seasons by a reliever of the decade.
I hope we sent him off with the utmost respect and gratitude.
by Joel D on Jul 23, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Yeah yeah. I just hope that while everyone appreciates Betancourt’s good 2007, we don’t get too ahead of ourselves and forget about how talented Shin Soo is.
Last thoughts on this subject, ‘cause I’ve definitely devoted 2000x more words to this than I should have. Cliff’s gotta go for prospects, but expediting the departure of your Cy Young winnner because of post-game criticism is horrible form, in my opinion, and reflects worse on the FO than your star player questioning a bad strategy. Sorry if that got lost in dense translation.
I wouldn’t worry about it one bit. There hasn’t even been a follow-up inquiry into them that I’ve read. If we trade him, it’ll have nothing—oogatz—to do with his very mild comments. I’m not sure if Veras could get away with this much—and he might be the only one—but our man Cliff has the leverage to say much more than he already has.
I think you guys are both sort of missing the reality of the situation here.
The issue isn’t one or two comments. That’s just the public part, the part that we know about.
Now one possibility is that those comments were just a momentary lapse of good-teammate-ness, and that everyone knows it. Lee is a class act, not given to throwing a guy like Garko under the bus. Maybe he even approached Garko the next day to clear the air. Maybe he mentioned to Wedge, hey, you know how worked up I get, I just want to be winning more games.
That’s one possibility. The other is that the public comments were just the tip of the iceberg. Maybe in the clubhouse, away from the media, he’s made his feelings known more explicitly, and not as diplomatically. Maybe to his agent, he’s made some very specific, undiplomatic comments about what he thinks of this team and its future, and maybe his agent has been relaying those sentiments to the front office.
Granted, this is all BS on the order of reading tea leaves, but I leave it to each of you intelligent people to decide which possibility is more likely. If it’s the latter, then I think you can understand why they feel like it’s time to cash out on Lee, especailly if they think they can get 110 cents on the dollar or better.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
This strikes me as ludicrous. Reading way too much into a quote, and extrapolating an entire drama out of the slimmest of facts.
It’s also possible that Lee was going through players’ pockets during games. Maybe he stole some watches. Maybe he took a swing at Larry Dolan. These too may have happened, and that’s why they’re looking to unload Cliff.
It’s also possible there wasn’t any more but this public part. It may not have been the tip of the iceberg, but the whole thing. There may have been no private betrayals. What basis do we have for assuming this wasn’t just one or two comments? (Actually, I remember there being only one.)
This strikes me as more narrative-building. Similar to when Chuck defines C.P. Lee as some sort of Chuck Norris bad ass.
Understand, I don’t claim to know what is happening behind the scenes. I do think, however, that common sense says that what someone says in public tends to be a watered-down version of what they’d say in private.
Mainly what I’m getting at here is, if Lee is traded, it won’t be because of the comments. If the comments have any connection at all, it will be only that they were an indicator of what was going on behind the scenes. It won’t have anything to do with a punitive or disciplinary element, unlike, for example, Milton Bradley’s trade.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
That makes sense.
Not being able to know the whole story forces us to make assumptions, and to fill in the lacunae with narrative connectors. It’s understandable that we tend to extrapolate from what we think we know. But in this case, much is being made from the merest sliver of information: that Lee made a disparaging (more properly, a seemingly disparaging comment) after a game. And our version of Shapiro is of a man with ice in his veins, who will vow to dump Lee because he dared to speak intemperately. That story is hard to believe.
Well, yeah, I can vaguely see that. If that be the case, maybe Cliff and/or his agent have some legitimate points.
My only serious concern is that we equal or surpass fair value for Cliff, or else keep him. I know that we’re not foolish enough to dump his salary ahead of other routes of potential cost-cutting, regardless of the attitude that Cliff and his agent may or may not have.
It would be kinda nice to kill several birds with one stone.
To completely renege on my shut up policy: I think this is a valid narrative. My worries, valid or not, were that a.) FO was “mad” at Cliff because he defied their ways. Like, he helps them win ballgames, but hurt their cred, which is a worse offense than being awful (Bfran, Garko in the OF, etc). Hence my diatribe about respecting his contributions. But most likely not the case. And b.) purely business: you pay to remove a guy under a time frame, or any other variable that you value other than or in addition to simply maximizing his individual trade value at any point within the next year and a half.
I think they’re disciplined and professional enough not to make major or even minor decisions out of anger.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Hmm… I don’t know. Let’s sign Shawn Chacon and see what happens.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 6:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Goldstein described him as “a massive and intimidating presence on the mound, with a pure power arsenal that begins with a fastball that sits at 92-95 mph and touches 97.” And “a big guy with long levers.” From the top 11 article (he was 8).
BP said this before the season:
“is a mountain of a man who can touch 97 mph and who limited Sally League hitters to a .189 batting average, but he also hands out walks like a politician making promises.”
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
There certainly seems to be a fixation on “power arms” in 2009.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
doubt it….they were pretty desperate for relief pitching.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s kind of like when we got Kenny Lofton. You forgive giving up high-ceiling A-ball talent when you’re in contention and need something now.
Steel Nick
The Rockies have had some top shelf pitching prospects at the upper levels (and graduated) recently. The fans aren’t going to worry about someone down the list like this.
Why, Dave, I didn’t know you cared. Now we definitely have to grab Adam so we can wistfully ruminate about 2007 while Raffy sucks for the Rockies .
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
If Juan Cruz was a type A free agent this past year, would it be crazy to expect Raffy to be one as well?
by millionairesrow on Jul 23, 2009 3:58 PM EDT reply actions
Yes, I think a Detroit Tigers fan runs his own numbers on the Elias Rankings … and Raffy B slid in as a B.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. I can’t explain it.
Or maybe it started that time when he got reprimanded for having fun during rain delays.
Agreed. Way to rain on his parade… cough
"be where you are when you're there"
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 23, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
just to get a reaction. WIN
"be where you are when you're there"
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 24, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
So, clearly, the Rays need more offense, right? But also, pitching is good. Maybe they should trade us a ton of young players for Victor and Cliff?
That was a hell of a catch by Wise in CF to save the perfect game (and shutout). Probably the play of the year in baseball considering the situation.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 23, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
http://www.purplerow.com/2009/7/23/960193/colorado-rockies-trade-for-rafael is the Rockies’ SBNation blog take on it, if anyone’s curious. Warning: contains subject lines.
*sigh*
Did Delucci then complain about what jerks the Jays fans were?
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 23, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I can only hope so…the guy’s a baby.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 23, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
there are Jays fans??
"be where you are when you're there"
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 23, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I have no idea who that is, and I really don’t give a $%@#.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
Trades that don’t involve once great relievers. I want shiny new sluggers or heads rolling in the FO. I don’t have time or energy for anything else.
Ride on ye fearsome Horsemen of the Basketball Apocalypse. We got this.
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 23, 2009 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
So Buehrle threw a perfect game. Good on him, but I’m not sure I’ll ever recover from listening to those ridiculous Sox TV guys making the final call (excerpt: YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!).
My first reaction — great, we got Luis Perdomo back.
Second reaction — Indians essentially just stockpiling pure, dominating stuff for bullpen options, in the hopes that a few will develop control. Not sure what I think of this, but I have to admit that you can’t do it the other way around.
Third reaction — this guy was already a relief prospect, he was just in the rotation to pile up innings and experience. We knew Perez was a reliever a year or more before he actually moved to the pen, and this guy looks the same.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Fourth reaction — couldn’t we have gotten Heather Graham? Or at least Lauren Graham?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I think I agree with those points. Ultimately, it comes down to what I think you mentioned earlier— the trade was little more than a salary dump; we weren’t going to exercise his option, and it appears this guy has an ostensible upside. Not much to lose, and something potentially to be gained. That being said, having watched the bullpen this year, I’m still weary of acquiring (more) pitchers with a weak grasp of the strike zone
Just so we’re all prepared Raffy is going to be lights out for COL.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 4:32 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I think we just got Brickrolled.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 23, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
hahaha
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the kind of analysis I show up for.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 4:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it’s stupid to get attached to players but man, i’m gonna miss his slow ass delivery. the foot tap, the foot tap!
Castro has an update saying Graham is going to Akron. Some nice quotes from Betancourt too. No link, I’m mobile. Sorry.
by afh4 on Jul 23, 2009 4:42 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
“All these years, to be able to pitch here, was very good,” he said. “You see a lot of relievers go around a lot. To be here seven years makes me proud.”
http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives/2009/07/betancourt_traded_to_rockies_f.html
Step 1: Trade Betancourt.
Step 2: Collect underpants.
Step 3: ?
Step 4: Championship!
Lead singer and driver of the Winnebago.
by Fredward on Jul 23, 2009 4:48 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
So I was down at Muni to protest a parking ticket yesterday morning, and I bring some dice to pass the time. Some other guys were waiting, we start shooting craps. Security guard walks by, says, “You guys are idiots. You should never Betancourt.”
Later, Iron.
by fleerdon on Jul 23, 2009 4:55 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Back to Bar/Bri for you….
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
200+ comments on the trade of a reliever who was really good two years ago for a 23 year old pitcher from the California League. Wow, we’re desperate.
Betancourt’s next year on his contract seems like a huge albatross. I can’t imagine any team paying his 5.4 million dollar option for a (maybe) setup guy. Who knows though, maybe he goes to the NL and dominates like Muijica has (last I checked).
Maybe we can get Raffy B back for a cheaper price next year (slim chance).
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
I still believe in Carl Pavano.
by salome on Jul 23, 2009 8:42 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hah, I forgot about this potential impact of a Raffy deal.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
You cold-hearted bean counters. Never considering the human cost of these transactions.
I guess I need to make an ice cream stop on the way home tonight.
--
Force quit and move to trash.
Maybe get out your Rascal Flatts CD so you put “What Hurts The Most” on repeat?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 23, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I knew it! Actually, I guessed the Smiths.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 23, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Regarding Graham
I was a student at Miami and lived in Oxford for some time after graduating (its an awesome place). I’m quite familiar with Graham, and saw him pitch all three years at Miami. Along with Graham, Miami had other highly drafted pitchers, including Keith Weiser (2nd round), John Ely (3rd round), Matt Long (2nd round), Graham Taylor (10th round). Connor Graham was the most talented of the group, but he was inconsistent and his poise on the mound was inferior to the others. The first time I saw him was his freshman year as a reliever. He came out throwing 91-95 MPH and showed a hard biting, tightly spun, yet inconsistent, breaking ball — the type of breaking ball that snapped. I thought I was looking at a future first round pick. Over time, the more I saw of him, the more his inconsistencies showed and he was clearly not a future 1st rounder.
I thought Graham was the type of pitcher that would do much better vs. wooden bats b/c his stuff had good, hard late breaking movement and that he was unlikely to ever make it as a starting pitcher unless he demonstrated vast improvement in mechanical consistencies, and development of a change-up. His mechanics weren’t pretty, nor was his arm action. He isn’t particularly athletic, and I thought that he would always have problems with control. I thought that he went in the draft exactly where he should have; the 5th round. Over my time watching him pitch for three years, overall, I was disappointed in his lack of development. He was the most talented pitcher to come through the program at Miami (which says a lot b/c they had legit pitching prospects there). His stuff is first class, but mechanics weren’t great and I questioned his mound presence. It was always clear to me that he profiled the best as a back-end bullpen guy, but inconsistent mechanics and less than ideal mound presence negated this profile projection. I don’t recall being too impressed with him in pressure situations. This is why, I believe, this pitcher that had clear potential to be a late 1st rounder to 3rd rounder went in the 5th round.
It’s clear that Graham is a bullpen guy. The Indians will move him there soon, if not immediately. I’ve always been intrigued by him, and if you get enough of these hard throwing relievers, a few of them will end up panning out. I believe he is a better relief prospect than Zach Putnam, for comparison’s sake, but I’ve never liked Putnam :)
by OhioTommy on Jul 23, 2009 11:00 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
Great post.
My cousin however would respectfully disagree with your opinion of Oxford.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 23, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Class of 97, Miami (OH) proud.
I still remember Tony Pena’s game-winning ALDS Game 1 blast in 95 against Boston at Stadium on south Poplar. 2 beautiful ironies about that game.
(1) – Miami (OH) alum Tim Naehring put the BoSox up in extras before Belle tied it in the bottom half (I think that’s what happened… Naehring went to Miami if I’m remembering correctly
(2) – The bouncer at Stadium was a dead ringer for Mo Vaughn. Just pure comedy when bedlam ensued after Pena won it. as he tried to restore order as glasses were broken all around
There was a happy hour at a pool hall in my college town, that sold $0.25 glasses or $1.50 pitchers of all tap beers, including Michelob Dark. You had to hold onto the pitchers tho, cause if it went empty, somebody else picked it up.
Amazingly enough, the happy hour was from 3-7 on Wed AND Fri afternoons.
Good times.
It’s too bad Raffy’s 07 didn’t end with him celebrating on Colorado’s field as a visitor.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
Too soon.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 24, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’ll never think this wasn’t the way it was supposed to happen.
Trade Cliff.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 24, 2009 4:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Does this mean our national innocence has been restored?
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
Of course not. It’s the national innocence. He still ruined it, he’s just not ruining it from Cleveland anymore.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Well, then your pastor is a juicer, too.
by odradek on Jul 24, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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