Shapiro asked for Justin for Lee from NY
According to John Heyman, everyone's favorite and most trusted rumor source, when the Yankees called about Cliff Lee, Shapiro said the package started with Phil Hughes or Justin Chamberlain. Obviously will not happen, but sort of funny to think of what exactly the reaction around here would be.
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Let’s see…
1) Make the Yankees better
2) Trade Lee to the Yankees
3) Receive back Justin
I’m sure everyone would be fine with that.
by Ryan on Jul 24, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It’s fine as long as we only have Justin pitch on the road, because, you know, midges.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 24, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think it’s obvious at all. I count on the Yankees to not over value their prospects.
Better send us back a ton, though.
Remember when the Yankees sent us a young Jake Westbrook for David Justice? Ah, those were the days.
by elsandito on Jul 24, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The trade was Justice for Ledee, with 2 PTBNL (Day and Westbrook).
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
Didn’t remember any naming-later from that deal, but I do remember feeling like Day and Westbrook were the significant players in that deal. They certainly turned out to be. (We traded Day for Bradley a year later.)
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Also! Holliday to St. Louis for a guy with a generic name. I’d like to see him hit behind Pujols; Albert’s numbers could use a little boost.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 1:01 PM EDT reply actions
With the hull that the A’s got for Holliday … does anything that will set a trend for any of the possible trades for us? I’ve got to believe this means good things for us if we do trade. Or am I living a pipe dream?
you would think so since Holliday is a FA after this season, we should get more value for 1.5 years of Cliff and/or Vic. But we’ll see.
That, and they’re also much better players.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions
do you think they are too good? sounds a bit ridiculous to say but perhaps they would demand too much therefore not very easy to trade if at all? i guess that is kind of the general thought around us not being able to trade them … but after this trade i guess i really had no perspective what they might be able to bring back. my mind has been rotted from other sites hating on cliff lee compared to holliday but it seems as if most indians fans are right on.
Yeah, they may be too good to trade in the sense that they are not just two month rentals like Holliday, but are both signed through 2010 at incredibly low contracts for their caliber. Shap is in the enviable position of holding out for a very high return from a team that is in a position to make a run this year and next. The worst case scenario is that we have Cliff and Vic next season, and could still trade them for good value at next year’s deadline if it becomes clear that we can’t afford to re-sign either or both (and if we’re not in contention next season).
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not looking like a good trade for the Cards. If they sign Holliday to an extension or win the World Series that may change.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Well, it depends on the playoffs as you mention. There is also a possibility that Holliday accepts arbitration if offered. If the Cardinals can stomach that much cash for one year, then it may be another year on top of what’s left.
What’s the thought there? That he accepts arbitration and waits a year to sign a big multi-year deal because of the economy?
I’d expect him to go get a big multi-year deal right now. He’s exactly the type of player you expect would NOT want to accept arbitration.
I would think that too, but yes, I mentioned it because of the economy. He may think that with a full season not in the cavernous Oakland park, he can put up better numbers and get a better contract with a rebounded economy.
It all depends on the playoffs. This seems like a win now trade so they better win now is all I’m saying.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 24, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
chamberlain/hughes and austin jackson/jesus montero?
you get a pitcher who immediately slots into your rotation and your choice of a raw, but high upside, jackson or a montero (who may or may not have a position by the time he’s big-league ready)
just a thought
chamberlain AND hughes and then maybe romine or another low-level, prospect?
by gorilla_baller on Jul 24, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
although i think even the yankees laugh at that one
by gorilla_baller on Jul 24, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
A #3 starter and a reliever + a prospect for one of the best starters in the AL over the last two seasons. How is that lopsided?
chamberlain is a big draw in ny and if his control ever rights itself he surpasses that #3 starter billing… and is hughes really a reliever in the long run? after all he’s still 23 and he shows flashes of brilliance… just never the sustained success that was expected from him two years ago
the yankees definitely value chamberlain highly… it would be no stretch of the imagination to see him closing games after mo is gone
maybe not lopsided, but losing joba might be a tough sell in ny
by gorilla_baller on Jul 24, 2009 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Justin is a big draw? Don’t make me laugh. They’ll be propping up the next guy in no time, and his drawing power has already largely collapsed as he ceased to be a demi-god as a starter.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
are you kidding me? yankees fans eat him up
by gorilla_baller on Jul 24, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
piece by delicious, hickory-smoked piece
by gorilla_baller on Jul 24, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think you mean he eats them up.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 24, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
… and love big white guys who show emotion on the mound
by gorilla_baller on Jul 24, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions
(a) Hughes isn’t a reliever. He’s just being used as one right now.
(b) Justin isn’t a starter. He’s just being used as one right now.
(c) Both.
(d) Neither.
You decide.
Anyone who puts either in the bullpen longterm is stupid. They’re both much more valuable as starters.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 24, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t entirely agree. I remember reading something about how Epstein and Bill James concluded that when they put Papelbon in the pen, if he could become lights out, he might end up having more value as a closer than a starter.
Maybe as a closer, if he’s used right (i.e. not just save situations). Maybe. But the Yankees already have an excellent closer.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 24, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
But Chamberlain was an excellent starter in college and then as a 21 year old in A+ and AA. Papelbon was a reliever in college and really only been used as a starter when he was kind of old for his league in the minors. I know Papelbon was always rated highly because of great stuff, but as a 24 year old combining AA and AAA he put up a 4.76 MLE FIP. Good, but maybe not a great SP prospect.
Of course, it’s easier to look good pitching only two innings a game. Hughes should probably be starting right now once they figure out Wang can’t pitch any more.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 24, 2009 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Let’s not forget that the Yankees woulda had Santana if they would have given up Hughes/IanK.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
i actually thought of that but somehow dismissed it as i was typing… good point
by gorilla_baller on Jul 24, 2009 1:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Ok, so here’s what I’d do… get Justin AND Hughes, then flip Justin to Boston.
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
I’m fine with keeping Chamberlain, on condition that he gets the reverse-Fausto treatment, in which we improve his nutritional habits by messing up his teeth.
by fleerdon on Jul 24, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
For starters, I think we’d stop calling him Justin.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 2:02 PM EDT reply actions
I don’t know. When I say Joba I feel like I’m making fun of his figure. Justin is much more respectful in my opinion.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Not from this site it isn’t.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand not rooting for former Yankees. That’s like saying you wouldn’t be nice to a child rescued from a polygamist camp because they were once in a cult.
Not wanting one of our guys to go to the Bronx? That I get.
by FredOx on Jul 24, 2009 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Justin is the mega douche, though. He has openly stated his dislike for Cleveland. He pumps his fists in non-important moments. He’s a complete jackass
This has less to do with me hating the Yankees (which I do) and more hating Justin personally.
Of course all is forgiven after a couple of shutouts.
Steel Nick
I’m forgetting about the open dislike for Cleveland. When was that? Was it regarding the midges?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I linked a fanshot awhile ago in which Justin was speaking at some event, and he said something about “and Yes I hate Cleveland.” No one commented on the fanshot, though. Let me find the link here.
(Am not able to check and see it the video still works since I have it blocked at work.)
Still works, and that’s exactly what he says WATCH THIS SHAPIRO
Proud Fan of the Worst Baseball Team I've Ever Seen
I actually like it when opposing players say they hate Cleveland. 1. Because it means we’re doing our job right and 2. because he’s the opponent. He should hate us. I hope most of our players hate our bitter rivals too.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 24, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d really hate to see what kind of social commentary hoopla comes along with Justin being traded to the Indians.
You are reading my signature.
Why would I root against a guy playing for Cleveland, unless while he played for Cleveland he was an a-hole? Or unless he did something inexcusably bad against Cleveland? My memory tells me that what Justin did in his most prominent outing against Cleveland was blow up in Cleveland’s favor. It isn’t as if he Renteria’ed us.
Leaving aside the emotion over and history with this particular player as an opponent, I have to say that this is exactly the kind of player we should be trying to get, whether for Cliff or for Victor. A young starter with obvious talent who hasn’t quite settled in yet … it’s the upgrade they need and the upside we need.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Kind of my reaction. Who the hell else would we want? Jeter?
by fleerdon on Jul 24, 2009 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree. As soon as he starts pitching well everybody will love him. This is sports; players change teams. I know we joke around, but most fans know that players on the Yankees (or any other team) aren’t inherently bad people. There’s just baseball players.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 24, 2009 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes you go too far, Brad.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 24, 2009 7:20 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
It’s true. If he brought us a championship, many of us would be be wearing Chamberlain jerseys the next season (ok, some of us).
More seriously, if we were to do this, I’d rather deal Cliff than Vic on the theory that maybe Vic could be good influence to rein in Joba’s, um, enthusiasm.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Drat! That means he’ll be a drag to his teammates who will be discussing international politics and the history of religions.
Do I have to know someone personally to think they are a douchebag? I think Terrell Owens is a douchebag. Do you? Do you know him?
No, but TO has done a heck of a lot more to deserve that than Joba has done. I’m just curious what he’s done that makes you thinks he’s a tool. I don’t remember him ever saying or doing anything publicly which would lead to that conclusion.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 25, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Kind of toolish to tell the police officer who just pulled you over for a DUI that, “obviously I play for the Yankees.”
Steel Nick
Yeah, I would agree with you. I didn’t know he did that. So maybe he is a tool. But if he can help us win baseball games then I’ll take him. We’ve certainly cheered for worse players wearing an Indians uniform.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 25, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Here’s the difference: this isn’t a court of law. You don’t need conclusive evidence to prove tool-ness. It is acceptable evidence to simply look at Joba fist-pump and fat-dance around the mound after striking out Aubrey Huff to get an idea of his tool-ness.
Agreed. And I think Joba may meet the preponderance-of-evidence test regardless.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
in body mass alone
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 25, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think I said he needed to “prove” he was a tool, I just asked why he thought that. As I said above, I couldn’t remember any thing he had said or done to give that impression. Yeah, he shows emotion on the mound, but many athletes show emotion and nobody complains. And he’s overhyped because he’s a Yankee, but that’s the media, not him. But you have every right to consider him a tool if you so choose. Just remember that he could some day wear a Cleveland uniform and your opinions might change. Most fans love it when players on their team show emotion because it mean they have “heart” so if he was on the Indians you may have a different view of him.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 25, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt I would view him differently. I don’t track all of the things that make me someone is a tool. Living in NYC, I am immersed with Justin coverage and love. Maybe that is influencing me, but it makes me sick to my stomach.
Yeah. Also, Brad: it’s interesting to note that several credible veterans – (already mentioned) Huff and Dellucci – have chaffed publicly with the guy. You think they criticize him ‘cause he’s a Yankee? Or because he has Bad Baseball Etiquette? If he’s an Indian in the future, I’ll treat him as a fan like tools I’ve played sports with in the past. You love them on the field, then laugh at them in the locker room.
Absolutely. You don’t care if they throw splintered bats (Clemens), purposely try to hurt the other team (Cobb), talk to themselves between pitches (Fydrich), gamble on games (Rose) or stick their tongue out after striking out someone. As long as they produce on the field, get along with teammates and their manager and obey the law, we root for them. If Albert Belle doesn’t get along with the media it’s their problem, not mine.
~ It's no fun throwing fastballs to guys who can't hit them. The real challenge is getting them out on stuff they can hit ~ Sam McDowell
I definitely cared about Clemens in a negative way, and I don’t think anyone had a problem with Fydrich. I guess the point is moot if you’re only talking about fans of the team they played for, but I still don’t think Fydrich belongs.
Steel Nick
Yeah I don’t know how Fydrich fits in that group. Didn’t everybody love him?
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 26, 2009 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d still think he was a tool. I would want him to do well but I wouldn’t like him as a person.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 25, 2009 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s silly
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 25, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Why? A sports player’s personhood has very little to do with their ability on the field and very little to do with my ability to want them to do well on the field if they are playing for my team. Simply wearing an Indians uniform doesn’t make you a better person.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 26, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Why? A sports player’s personhood has very little to do with their ability on the field and very little to do with my ability to want them to do well on the field if they are playing for my team.
I slightly misread your post but I think my point still applies.
Its silly to dislike someone as a person based on a few silly isolated events. Maybe I’m splitting hair’s here since I don’t have a problem with someone saying “oh Joba’s a Tool” or “Bellicheck is a douchebag” That’s just the kind of crap trash talk that’s inherent within sports. But to say you don’t like someone as a person takes it to a whole other level. There’s a difference between not liking someone’s persona within the sports world and not liking them as a person.
Simply wearing an Indians uniform doesn’t make you a better person.
Yes it does.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 26, 2009 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree. I think sports are a crucible that reveals what kind of person any given player is (within reasonable limits). Take the dude for the Dayton Dragons last year who threw the ball at the other team’s dugout during a fracas, missed and hit some little kid. I would say that, as a person, he has a bad temper and poor impulse control. I could give a whole bunch of examples, but the point is, you’re not one person on the field and another off it. I think the kind of guy who acts like Joba on the field would be full enough of himself to tell a cop who pulled him over that he was a Yankee off the field. That’s just my opinion though.
Small sample sizes are even less effective when you apply them to the real world.
The problem here is people hold players to some fantasy world standard where no player is allowed to make a mistake or a minor slight without being the worst person in the world.
That, like I said above, is silly. We’ve all made smart ass remarks, said something rude , and done things we shouldn’t have done. Professional athletes are people too. To base your perception of someone on 1 or 2 random events is foolish at best.
Irregardless, this is the problem right here:
you’re not one person on the field and another off it.
Its well documented in the sociology, psychology, and communications field that a persons personality manifests differently depending on the social situation, especially competitive situations. Just because you think Joba is a jackass for pumping his fist doesn’t mean he kicks puppies and beats his wife off the mound.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 26, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree with your oversimplified summation of sociology, psychology and communication. A personality manifests itself in response to situations/stressors, that is true. You lose in nuance the reason behind the action. Trimming it all down to pumping his fist somehow correlating with kicking a puppy is, in the catchphrase of the day, intellectually dishonest.
What motivates a person to respond to a stimulus remains the same whether that stimulus is exerted in Yankee Stadium or in the living room. That motivation is what shapes personality and makes a person what he is.
If Joba has the type of personality that makes him get off on humiliating his opponents and unduly reveling in his mastery of them, you can bet that manifests itself in the rest of his life. He might go so far as to try to wield his semi-celebrity in order to escape a DUI. If he has a personality that causes him to exuberantly celebrate when he is genuinely happy, then that will also show in other facets of his life. In reality, it’s even more complicated than that, but he is the same person no matter where he is.
What motivates a person to respond to a stimulus remains the same whether that stimulus is exerted in Yankee Stadium or in the living room. That motivation is what shapes personality and makes a person what he is.
Not true at all.
There’s a wide amount of literature that discusses the affect even subtle influences can have on our actions regardless of personality types. Adding objects generally associated with the business world to an environment makes people more competitive, the location of foods in a lunch line affects what we eat, certain colors encourage aggression while other colors promote tranquility. I could go forever listing examples.
A large majority of our actions are based on a cognitive thought process that is fragile and easily swayed in various directions. But that doesn’t mean that every action is representative of our predominate personality traits. Context is what matters. To say that a singular action represents the larger whole means that when you got angry at work you’re really an angry person at heart and the trash talking you did during a pick up game of basketball means that you feel the need to put people down in other parts of your life.
There might be some truth to this viewpoint when looking at the broad fabric of human behavior, IE sometimes people get angry, but its an oversimplification when applied to individuals.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 26, 2009 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions
To say that a singular action represents the larger whole means that when you got angry at work you’re really an angry person at heart and the trash talking you did during a pick up game of basketball means that you feel the need to put people down in other parts of your life.
That’s is neither what I said, nor what I mean. My point is exactly the opposite of what you say. While context lends something to the equation, it doesn’t ever cause something to surface that was not there to begin with.
Joba does not have the personality of a complete douche on the mound and the personality of Mother Teresa elsewhere. It’s all facets of the same personality manifesting themselves in different areas and that personality thinks asshattery on the field is completely fine. That is 100% guaranteed to to show itself elsewhere, and it has.
I don’t think we have any evidence that even suggests each outburst by Joba is an isolated incident, regardless of where it happens. Maybe if he did it once or twice, I could accept that some outlying factor of his personality swelled unbidden to the surface, but this dude makes a habit of acting like a total clown. Eventually, you just have to accept that that is who he is.
I think, in your arguing that fwembt ignores context, you over emphasize it. Different people in the same context will act differently. I play a lot of pick up basketball, and I do talk trash from time-to-time. That’s not because basketball makes me mouthy, it’s because I’m a mouthy person and basketball gives me a venue in which to display that trait. Context can never draw out of a person something that wasn’t there to begin with. Even if you say that Joba only acts like that because of where he is, his own teammate Mo Rivera has locked down much more important situations with much more grace, professionalism, and decorum. From that sample, would I be wrong to say that Rivera has better self-control and fewer douchy tendencies than Chamberlain? I don’t think I would
Well fine. I’m saying that he doesn’t represent himself well as a person. If he changed and represented himself as a better person then I could like him, if I met him and he was charming and nice and didn’t do anything toolish, I could change my mind and like him. He has done things off the field that reflect poorly on him as a person and maybe it’s unfair because everyone makes mistakes but that’s part of being in the public eye: Your mistakes get amplified and people are much more likely to judge you. I have heard of things that he has done off the field that make me think he is not a very nice person and not someone I would want to spend a lot of time with, a lot of also may have to with his upbringing as I understand it so I don’t even entirely blame him. There are a lot of people in sports I don’t think I would like to spend time with and he happens to be one of them.
As to your last point maybe it does but sometimes you just have so far to go there’s only so much the uniform can do.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
See, here’s the problem: what you “know” about a player is highly dependant upon how the reporters portray them in print. It’s pretty easy to assasinate a player in the press. For exampe “he’s aloof”, means he doesn’t play ball with the media. Doesn’t mean he’s a bad guy, just that he doesn’t make the reporter’s job easy.
When I was in Boston reading the Boston papers, I thought that Roger Clemens ate little children, based on what I read in the press. When I actually met the guy, he turned out to be a right dude ( you can start with the rebuttal now, but that’s what I think).
In short, you really don’t know any of these guys, only what little you see on the field and what the reporters tell you – and what most of them tell you is BS.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Well of course not but how can I be expected to come to any other conclusion if that’s all I see? I don’t like how he acts on the field either and it seems consistent with what I have heard so he doesn’t do himself any favors either.
Like I said if I met him and he was nice and not anything like what I hear I would change my mind. I am really not very judgmental and tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Yankees however bring out the bad side of me.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Well of course not but how can I be expected to come to any other conclusion if that’s all I see?
You shouldn’t come to a conclusion and that’s the point. For the most part none of us are in a position to evaluate professional athletes on a personal level. Especially when you set the bar as low as “Someone told me he said something impolite once”
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 26, 2009 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
If all I had to go on was what the media told me I may draw a conclusion only because he’s on the other team. If he was on my team I would give him more leeway. However I am also judging based on what I see on the field. It’s all pretty consistent. Like I said if I ever met him and he gave me any reason to change my opinion then I probably would despite the 15 minutes of acting like a good person junkballer mentions.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Your point about Clemens is so self-defeating as to be comical. Anyone can pretend to be a cool dude in person for 15 minutes or an hour. Heck, I sat with my brothers and shot the crap with Brandon Phillips in the players’ parking lot for an hour after a game once. Doesn’t mean he is or isn’t a great guy, just that he wanted to talk to four little white boys one night and we were there and happy to oblige. A good portion of people on here would argue that he’s a d-bag, and that still might be true.
Ultimately, what I “know” about Joba is that he acts like an ass hat on the field and it rubs me and Aubrey Huff the wrong way. I don’t need the local print media to affirm that to me, it’s plainly observable.
by Joel D on Jul 26, 2009 1:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So if a person does something good, it may or may not prove they’re a nice guy. But if they do some thing bad they’re definitely a jackass?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 26, 2009 1:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m just contending that Joba hasn’t given me any reason to believe he’s not an idiot, whereas Jake Westbrook, for instance, hasn’t given me any reason to believe that he is.
Justin.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 26, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
ALSO! (I’m bringing it back, guys)
If you’re going to apply the “he might be lying standard” you A) have to apply it to both sides of the argument and B) this discussion is completely pointless because we have no way of determining when a person is lying or being truthful
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 26, 2009 1:57 AM EDT up reply actions
sure
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 26, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Little bit different. Knew the guy from the gym in Houston, near Katy – lifting weights, playin’ a little hoops. Saw him once or twice a week in the off-season. Got to know his buddies from high school and college. He even stopped by – unasked – my table at a restaurant one time. It was a little more than just a parking lot chat. Don’t want to blow this out of proportion, but I think I got to see want he is like behind the curtain. He ain’t the guy that the Boston newspapers made him out to be.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
He has done things off the field that reflect poorly on him as a person and maybe it’s unfair because everyone makes mistakes but that’s part of being in the public eye: Your mistakes get amplified and people are much more likely to judge you.
Yes, but more to the point: people are more likely to judge you negatively. We make judgments every day of our lives. Thousands of judgments. A judgment means nothing without context; a judgment is neither bad nor good. I feel like people get this crossed up these days.
Its silly to dislike someone as a person based on a few silly isolated events.
I don’t think it’s silly at all. I think we do this all the time in real life. A few isolated events is all we really know about most people, unless we live with them.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Simply wearing an Indians uniform doesn’t make you a better person.
Oh yes it does.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 26, 2009 1:08 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Leaving aside the emotion over and history with this particular player as an opponent, I have to say that this is exactly the kind of player we should be trying to get, whether for Cliff or for Victor. A young starter with obvious talent who hasn’t quite settled in yet … it’s the upgrade they need and the upside we need.
if we acquired a couple of players like this we might even…gasp…be competitive next year. Oh wait, there I go being “intellectually dishonest again”
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 24, 2009 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Donald, I’d advise you from betting your real estate fortune on the Tribe making the play-offs next year, with or without Cliff and Victor. But go on ahead if you feel compelled to do so, cuz I can’t stop you.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I actually thought for a second that WD’s name was Donald. Then I figured it out and felt stupid.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 24, 2009 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t get it.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 24, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Touche Jay Touche
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 24, 2009 11:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You are if you think you’ll be getting multiple young starters with high ceilings who will contribute right away. I’m not giving on this.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m excited to see my line was memorable, though.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 24, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
A Garko-Sanchez deal would make a lot of sense for both teams, especially if we keep Victor.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 25, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
No way we get a recent no-hitter guy for Ryan f’ing Garko. Can you imagine what you’d think of that on the other side?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I don’t think it’ll happen. But I think its in part of an inflated sense of value for Sanchez and a deflated sense of value for Garko. A straight up trade wouldn’t make sense but a trade centered around those two would make sense.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 25, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
IN
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 27, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Shapiro, speaking generally about all teams’ recent valuations of prospects, said, “There is an understanding of the value of young prospects in roster construction. But it’s almost to the point where there’s an over-evaluation of these guys. There’s almost an over-correction.”
I think this was really the most news-worthy thing out of the entire Heyman article. The Yankees aren’t trading Joba and Hughes. Not happening. But this quote? Isn’t that the pot calling the kettle black?
I just wanted to believe.
I think Shapiro’s problem was misjudging the value of his young major leaguers more than his prospects. We know that he was willing to break open the bank for Haren. His point might be, 1.5 years of Cliff is a big deal, but it’s the sort of deal that gets made almost every year. He’s shopping Acuras, not Maybachs.
by fleerdon on Jul 24, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d say that 0.5 years of Cliff would the kind of deal made every year. Cliff and Halladay are unusual, especially with Cliff’s reasonable option.
Okay, so he’s the flagship Acura. Larger point: this isn’t another Haren deal. Lee’s price is a few excellent prospects, not your B.A. Top Ten list.
by fleerdon on Jul 24, 2009 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that’s exactly the point. Cliff in Cleveland might mean what? 30-40K in addentance – maybe. Cliff pushing a marginal team to the WS – go with me on this – might mean 250-500k more – assuming they play an additional 10 home games. Plus you get the boost in the following years attendance. Could add up to serious money – $10M+.
Value is all relative. You’re staring at a 100 loss season – Cliff vlue don’t add up to much. You got a sure-fire play-off contender, he’s worth a prospect or two – after all once you get in the play-offs everybody’s equal. You’re on the fringes and can add the piece that gets you in the game – then Cliff’s value jumps up significantly.
That’s why I’m thinking a team like the Rangers gotta be tempted. It’s almost like waiting for Christmas. And oh yeah, Cliff’s at least a E-Class Mercedes.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Any on-field upgrade is worth far more to a marginal playoff team than to one that’s already a strong favorite (Phillies) or that’s out of it (Indians). Outside of improving the club’s quality of contention, the drawing power of individual players is close to nil — even reigning Cy Young winners. Once the Brewers got C.C., they didn’t just sell out his starts, they sold out every game, because they were in the thick of it.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I think Shapiro’s problem was misjudging the value of his young major leaguers more than his prospects. We know that he was willing to break open the bank for Haren. His point might be, 1.5 years of Cliff is a big deal, but it’s the sort of deal that gets made almost every year. He’s shopping Acuras, not Maybachs.
I don’t get this
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 24, 2009 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d take Joba+others for Cliff and I severely dislike Joba.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Agreed
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 25, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see Shapiro trading Lee to NY unless he’s really blown away w/ an offer. For NY to have both Sabathia AND Lee probably pitching in the post-season and for NY no less….Especially since he doesn’t have to trade Lee now and other teams are surely interested.
I don’t see Shapiro trading Lee toNYunless he’s really blown away w/ an offer
Fixed.
That being said, Shapiro doesn’t hate the Yankees. if they Yankee’s offer him a value for Lee I doubt he would have any second thoughts about trading him to NY.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 25, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee and Sabathia in NY I see as a PR problem, knowing the way many local media and fans think. Wouldn’t help sell tickets.
So it’s the Indians fault the Yankee’s signed CC? There’s absolutely no basis for this.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 25, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant he has no basis for his assertion that the public would act one way or another.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 26, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think DanMac was blaming the Indians for CC going to NY, I think he was saying the fans don’t like that he is in NY and Cliff going there would just add fuel to the fire so to speak. And since the Indians’ FO would have sent Cliff there via trade this may cause even more problems.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
It may happen does not prove it will happen. It doesn’t even prove it would probably happen. There’s nothing that would cause us to believe Shapiro views a trade to New York any differently than a trade to Boston
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 26, 2009 2:04 AM EDT up reply actions
It’ll be a tough pill to swallow, but I’m holding out hope for a career-derailing injury to CC’s pitching arm. Any one of these days…
Nah, I hope he opts out after three years and goes to play for Boston
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 25, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
How about a bet Chuck? Give me an amount of years and if Sabathia has significant knee issues by that point I will fly to wherever you are and shake your hand.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
OK, let’s make it interesting. How’s three years sound to you? He’ll still be on the Yankees payroll. You on?
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Sure. I have no idea what I get if I win. How about a cookie?
Now let’s talk about what constitutes significant knee issues?
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
More specific: CC won’t throw a pitch in a major league uniform after September of 2012.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
You don’t want to leave room for him to lose another game in October 2012?
Possibly suffer that career-ending injury by overthrowing in the postseason?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
You just want an excuse to fly to Maui.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 25, 2009 7:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Per Rotoworld:
According to the St. Petersburg Times, the Rays removed Reid Brignac from Triple-A Durham’s game in the second inning Saturday.
He’s not supposed to be injured, so it’s possible that the Rays are including him in a trade. Brignac was close to going to the Rays for Jason Bay last year. He’s more expendable now thanks to Jason Bartlett’s emergence, and it’s believed his name has come up in talks with the Indians regarding Cliff Lee.
Commissioner of the Planetary Extreme Baseball Alliance (PEBA)
OOTP baseball sim league composed of LGT regulars
Check us out @ http://peba.allsimbaseball3.com
And now to complete my circle of foolishness:
The Tampa Tribune reports that Triple-A Durham’s Reid Brignac was pulled from Saturday’s game for not hustling to first base.
That won’t help his trade value, particularly if any scouts were watching him.
Commissioner of the Planetary Extreme Baseball Alliance (PEBA)
OOTP baseball sim league composed of LGT regulars
Check us out @ http://pebabaseball.com
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