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The Cleveland Indians and St. Louis Cardinals organizations officially closed the book on the Mark DeRosa trade when right-hander Jess Todd was sent to Cleveland on Sunday as the Player to be Named Later. The Indians also received second-year reliever Chris Perez, 24, when the trade originally occurred on June 27, 2009.

The addition of Todd to the deal swings this trade in Cleveland’s favor

Also gets into how the Tribe won both ends of the trade. Eventually, all these trade wins have to add up to something, right? Right?

over 2 years ago Being-manny_tiny danvail 34 comments 0 recs  | 

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I’m hoping for more of the ring-oriented variety of accomplishment.

by danvail on Jul 27, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

you’re hoping Shapiro accepts a wedding proposal….that kind of ring oriented accomplishment? Seriously though, we’ve got to get the monkey off the back eventually don’t we?

by MooneysRebellion on Jul 28, 2009 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Is there a Comment of the Year award? If, so is Jay elidgible?

by DuffBeer on Jul 28, 2009 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

To put it mildly.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jul 28, 2009 12:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t forget that A+ from Dave Cameron.

These fangraphs pieces are pretty pathetic. At the least the folks at ESPN know how to write.

by ClarkM on Jul 29, 2009 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

The folks at ESPN are professional writers.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jul 29, 2009 7:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

We’re adding another AAA team to make room for all these pitchers, right?

by Toxicadam on Jul 27, 2009 9:54 PM EDT reply actions  

i hate it when writers always try to find a “winner” and a “loser” in a trade

did dero have as much value to the tribe as perez/todd have? no. he’s a 34 year old rental player. they’re young, cost-controlled arms with relatively high ceilings (as far as relievers go).

on the flip side, derosa probably is more valuable to a team like the cardinals than the two guys they gave up. they never seem to have a problem coming up with pitching, and they’re clearly in a position to contend now. derosa provides more wins right now than either of those guys, and the marginal value of the wins he provides to st. louis is considerably higher than those he provides to cleveland.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 27, 2009 11:32 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

I’m embarrassed to admit I’ve never thought of it quite this way. Well put.

by still ill on Jul 28, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

really? I mean… that’s the whole point of midseason trades, isn’t it?

by Logodaedalus on Jul 28, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ve just never thought to not even bother identifying a winner or a loser.

But now that I think about it again, you can still win. The objective even in a win-win trade is to win as gloriously as you possibly can.

by still ill on Jul 28, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

yes, the beautiful thing about trades—like trade more generally—is that they are mutually beneficial exchanges. Everybody improves.

by gmfrodo on Jul 28, 2009 6:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree, especially bearing in mind the double trade / flip of DeRosa.

The Indians traded twice, with DeRosa being on both sides of the equation (and thus cancelled out). Essentially Shapiro traded pitching prospects for pitching prospects (even ignoring the mooted value of a few months of DeRosa’s play). The question is which side has more value?

Chris Perez and Jess Todd VS. Jeff Stevens and Chris Archer and John Gaub

You have two baskets. Pick one.

by danvail on Jul 28, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think the point is that, unlike a baseball game, trades are not (necessarily) zero-sum. There can be more than one winner.

by FredOx on Jul 28, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Of course, individual trades can be mutually beneficial. Trades can also be a giant rip-off. Witness the Droobs trade.

Especially in light of the DeRosa trades, from the Indians perspective, being legitimately zero-sum – it’s silly to say that Shapiro didn’t score a win here.

by danvail on Jul 28, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Blake trade is actually a pretty good example. It’s clearly a win for the Indians, but the Dodgers were able to re-sign Blake and he has played great this year.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 28, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

The re-signing was not part of the trade. Blake obviously entertained offers elsewhere, and there was no report of a higher offer. So your point seems to be that, as part of the trade, the Dodgers got the privilege of paying Blake more than anyone else would for the next three years. Seems to me that they had that privilege even without making the trade.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jul 28, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions  

I guess my point is that they got familiar with the player and liked him enough to pursue re-signing him. I tend to believe they wouldn’t have gone after him had they not had him for a couple months.

by Roger Dorn on Jul 28, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions  

But Shapiro’s win doesn’t preclude the other teams from winning.

The Cubs in particular could well get something useful out of the guys we sent them, and they were going to lose DeRo in another year regardless.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jul 28, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yes, that would be my point. That I win doesn’t mean you lose. Heck, that I lose doesn’t even necessarily mean you win.

by FredOx on Jul 28, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

this is nonsense. everything in baseball is zero-sum. which is the exact opposite of something else.

by Brick. on Jul 28, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Nor does it preclude other teams from losing – even the Cubs. They’ve struggled to fill the hole DeRosa left, and may never see anything from Stevens or the others we sent over. Further, DeRosa now plays on the one team most threatening to the Cubs, the 0.5 gb Cardinals.

To say either way, that a trade must necessarily have a winner and a loser or must necessarily have two winners, is incorrect. It can happen either way. In fact, it could even have two losers.

The complaint that every writer “always try to find a ‘winner’ and a ‘loser’ in a trade” is valid. Here, though, I don’t think it is for two reasons.

First, solely from the Indians perspective, they scored a zero-sum win by most scouts assessments (or so it seems initially and casually) by flipping DeRosa.

Second, it is possible (but very complicated) to judge whether a trade was one of equal value for both sides without waiting for the results to come in years later. Every player in an organization has some value to that organization, and if more value comes in than goes out, that must be a win. That’s what the writer was trying to show. The two higher end pitching prospects should have been considered of higher value to the Cards than the DeRosa return. Whether or not that’s the case, I don’t think I could say. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t an objective truth.

by danvail on Jul 28, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is no value to our team in getting a zero-sum win.

Indeed, we are better off if the trade is a win-win than a zero-sum win.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jul 28, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

There is no value to our team in getting a zero-sum win.

That’s insane. Of course there is. That’s the whole point of sports. There are only so many wins to go around. We want more of them, meaning they have to come from someone else. In the DeRosa trade, they (the probable future wins) came from three possible sources, none of which is exclusive:
1. The Cubs – they gave too much
2. The Cards – they gave too much
3. Other teams in baseball – all the involved teams gained win-share, so some other teams lost win-share.

Now, of course there is value to making a habit of gaining win-share for both yourself and your trading partners, but there is also value to a straight up heist. I don’t think anyone here is under the misconception that all of our trades in the Shapiro era were or were intended to be mutually beneficial.

by danvail on Jul 28, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s the whole point of sports.

But not the whole point of trades. Trades are supposed to be mutually beneficial, or at least, each side believes that it will truly benefit.

Our reputation as a trading partner rests in part on finding ways to deliver value to our trading partners.

Now, of course there is value to making a habit of gaining win-share for both yourself and your trading partners, but there is also value to a straight up heist. I don’t think anyone here is under the misconception that all of our trades in the Shapiro era were or were intended to be mutually beneficial.

That is true.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jul 28, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Now, of course there is value to making a habit of gaining win-share for both yourself and your trading partners, but there is also value to a straight up heist. I don’t think anyone here is under the misconception that all of our trades in the Shapiro era were or were intended to be mutually beneficial.

That is true.

There is no value to our team in getting a zero-sum win.

These are contradictory.

by danvail on Jul 28, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Boxes with periods in them.

Dundundun!

by danvail on Jul 28, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

They seem contradictory. What I meant by the second statement was that there was no additional value in our achieving a zero-sum win rather than a win-win, i.e., we should not aspire to zero-sum wins, because win-wins are just as good if not better.

Having said that, I have to admit some of those zero-sum wins have been pretty incredible.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jul 28, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ok, this makes sense.

Additionally, I’ve always wondered if those zero-sum wins have really hurt Shapiro, or actually just gotten him some more respect amongst the savvier GMs. I mean, did a lot of other GMs say to themselves. “I wish I had thought of that” after some of those deals?

by danvail on Jul 28, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, the key thing to remember is that Shapiro didn’t trick anyone into make those deals, so it’s not like a year later, the other GM is like, “Oh, that damned sneaky Shapiro!” The guy who “lost” is a pro at the top of his profession. He may regret a move, but he won’t feel that he got taken in by the other guy.

Other GMs, I strongly suspect, don’t hold it against him at all. I think the smart ones think, well, that would never happen to me, because I’m not that dumb, and if he offered me that deal, I wouldn’t have taken it, and if I could get that deal from the Indians’ side, I would take it. And trust me, every GM thinks that he’s one of the smart ones.

Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

by Jay on Jul 28, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh I absolutely agree, it’s just that when you (Mr. Generic GM) complete a trade that most of your peers view as lopsided, would they hold it against you as the beneficiary? I don’t think so. That was my only comment, I don’t think Shapiro is reviled by any means for notching a few zero-sum wins.

That’s completely different than someone trying to do so in EVERY trade, however.

by danvail on Jul 28, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

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