Sources: Phils reach agreement for Indians' Lee
Ken Rosenthal is reporting that the Indians have dealt Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco to the Phillies for RHP Jason Knapp, RHP Carlos Carrasco, SS Jason Donald, and C Lou Marson, pending physicals.
Sounds like a great trade...for the Phillies.
over 2 years ago
Ryan
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Hmmm interesting
Okay i’ll ask the obvious question. Why the Catcher and the SS? Are they fill ins or are they legit prospects?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
BA had them at 13 prior to the season
and most of the chats there have them as a top 4 right now (prior to the trade).
"If I ever decide to do a book, I've already got the title...The bases were loaded and so was I."
-Jim Fregosi
by Stephen Schmidt on Jul 29, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions
none have been particularly great this season, aside from knapp
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow…Marson has like no power
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
My question is this: Why were the Phillies always considered the front-runner for Halladay if their system is so poor?
dominic brown and Kyle drabek are considered pretty good prospects. I always thought the indians would not trade to the phillies without getting one of the two.
by I'd give my legs for Wegz on Jul 29, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
i don’t think their system is that bad. . . they just have a lot of B-level prospects, and not too many A-level guys (according to sickles at least). i think we could have done much better for lee.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. The problem with this trade is that there isn’t that special prospect. I mean Knapp is supposed to be solid but dude TINSTAAPP
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Am I right to believe that we’re NOT picking up Lee’s 2009 salary?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
Way to throw in the towel for 2010, Shapiro. I am miserable.
by Les Fleurs Du Mal on Jul 29, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions
I’m not defending the trade, but I actually think this trade indicates that Shapiro intends to compete in 2010. Otherwise he wouldn’t have acquired so many AAA players.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Getting a bunch of unproven prospects means that we are going to compete next year? I dunno . . .
by Les Fleurs Du Mal on Jul 29, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The “don’t trade my veteran for unproven prospects” discussion has been had many times already. It’s silly at this point to even try to argue
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions
OK OK . . . I still don’t think that this trade puts us in a position to compete next year.
by Les Fleurs Du Mal on Jul 29, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
And that’s your opinion. Which is fine. I’m just saying, four AAA players means something.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions
It sucks though to lose a guy like Lee and I think it does lessen the chances of competing in 2010. It’s hard to replace the ace of the sta
This is not about competing in 2010, it’s about getting the best return for Lee. That’s what upsets me.
Steel Nick
I agree .. this trade seems to be made with an eye to filling the 2010 roster.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay look everyone.
I;m not saying I like this trade. I’m not saying that it puts us in a better position to compete in 2010. And I’m not saying this was good value for Lee.
My only point was that getting three AAA players makes me think he wants to minimize “rebuilding”
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree there … this more along the line of a 2010 payroll reduction and teardown, with hopes of being able to compete again in 2011.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
except he’s like 2 full seasons away from the majors, and isn’t exactly a low-risk prospect
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
in the draft? yes
when you’re giving up a season and a half of lee? you should get at least one legitimate A-level prospect. we didn’t.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions
AGE, bitches. He’s 22 and pitching in the bigs.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
according to you? fine
according to a lot of the other things i’ve been reading. . . not really
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at his numbers, his peripherals, what BA ranks him, his age, and his scouting reports, then get your head out of the sand. You wanted more for Lee? Fine, but don’t complain about this guy.
i’m skeptical. he gives up an awful lot of hits (even though his peripherals are nice). i realize that he is only 22, but man, a guy with a 5.00 ERA in AAA isn’t exactly what i had pictured as the centerpiece of a lee trade.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
if taylor had been included, i probably would be fine right now. but it looks like carrasco, a backup C, a utility tweener, and a high ceiling/high risk guy who is a LONG ways off from the majors for a year and a half of lee. PUKE.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Why is Marson a backup catcher?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
well, in our system he is. he has zero power. very unimpressive to say the least. . . .760 career OPS in the minors
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
i might have been a bit harsh. . little bit of overreaction, for sure. but i still think we could have done better for lee, especially if taylor really was on the table.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
dude….we are in the same choir on this one trust me.
I’m just saying an odd poor value trade for Lee doesn’t mean all the players in the trade suck. Honestly more than anything I want to know what we’re doing next because this trade confuses me.
A ML ready 2B/SS
An ML ready Catcher?
wtf
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Calling Donald a utility man seems a little ridiculous considering just 4 months ago he was a top 50 prospect for some experts
This.
Apparently Castro is reporting he had a knee injury this year that required surgery. Could that explain the dropoff?
seeing laporta, marte, rondon, and some of the other young guys is actually bringing me back in. i’ve been out since cards/cubs.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Hard to face your favorite player involved in an underwhelming salary dump trade and not be pretty mad at baseball! But you’re right, some time off will do me good. I’m inflating my bike tires as soon as I hit post.
I live in the Philly area. Now I can’t even wear my Indians cap to class today because I don’t want to get pulled into conversations with goobers about the trade. Devastating day.
Not like you’d be following the no-profanity rule anyway, but I’m going with game thread rules with this thread.
by Ryan on Jul 29, 2009 2:08 PM EDT reply actions 8 recs
I was hoping this thread would reveal it was all a dream, and Shapiro is just in the shower.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:09 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’ll repeat my question from the other thread. Why Marson? We have 4 major league ready catchers and our top prospect is a catcher a year away.
Exactly
I mean Torregas isn’t a great hitter but he’s good enough to not require a backup.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
My confusion in part comes from the notion that Shapiro doesn’t really do the trade filler/throw-in thing. The guys he gets back in trades, all of them, are included for a reason. I just don’t quite get Marson’s reason.
me either .. i posted the same thought above
same with Donald … do we really need another MI prospect?
do we really need another MI prospect?
If he’s a good defender, yes. Those guys are like pitchers, I don’t think you can ever have too many of them. But…can we get some scouting reports on his defense? Is he actually a good defender?
I always thought most of his value was his glove … just from hearing talk about him.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I’ve heard the same. Phuture Phillies has a profile of him, but it’s a little old.
APV — is it possible we’re seeing a massive payroll reduction here?
That could mean no Shoppach next year either.
If Santana is given the Wieters promotion path … they may need Marson to back up … someone.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s my honest opinion … and its ugly.
Shoppach gets traded. That leaves Gimenez, Marson, and Toregas to battle it out for the major league roster.
Santana goes to AAA … for the Wieters “Save the Super Two” status demotion … then comes up later.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that seems to fit. There isn’t much point to hanging on to all of Shoppach/Toregas/Marson/Gimenez.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jul 29, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions
That is true too … but if that were the case, I really don’t know why you acquire him.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe we can package one of them and Sizemore together for a single A utility guy or pitcher
by millionairesrow on Jul 29, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Knapp born 8/31/90, playing at A at age 18
2-7 4.01 ERA, 85.1 IP, 39 BB, 111 K, 0.97 GO/AO
Carrasco born 3/21/87, playing AAA at age 22
6-9 5.18 ERA, 114.2 IP, 38 BB, 112 K, 1.11 GA/AO
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jul 29, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions
good gravy….this is not gunna be pretty.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
There’s no 2 ways around it, this trade leaves me disappointed.
I can’t remember Shap. blowing it like this on a similar trade before.
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
honestly if we got a young, essentially free jamie carroll out of this trade, that would be a pretty good result.
It’d be a nice thing, if the rest of the package were already worthwhile….
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Donald: SS at AAA at age 24 hitting 236/397/332
last year at AA: 307/391/497
Marson: C at AAA at age 23 hitting 294/382/370
last year at AA: 314/433/416
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jul 29, 2009 2:12 PM EDT reply actions
Okay I’m back. That was a brief vacay.
Does anyone have a scouting report on Carrasco? His numbers look pretty good.
88-93 MPH fastball, can touch the mid 90’s. Good changeup, probably his best pitch. Breaking ball is inconsistent.
I don’t really mind Carrasco. He’s no Buchholz or Wade Davis, but he’s not that bad. He has a pretty high floor I think, but the ceiling is somewhat limited unless he works some thing out.
The centerpiece is Knapp who has tons of upside, but man it’s risky.
I don’t mind either of those pieces … but I would have preferred Taylor in the deal … and another arm … over Donald and Marson.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions
But (and I’m guessing here) Shapiro didn’t have the option of picking up Lee’s option.
by Ryan on Jul 29, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Once this season went south, it was pretty clear they’d have to budget for 1.5-1.75M fans next year. I think it’ll be that bad.
Agreed. Salary dump.
Does this mean Victor is out the door, too?
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
has to. otherwise, acquiring the C makes literally no sense (which is less than the marginal sense it makes now)
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Holy crap Wood might be 1/5th of the salary next year.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 29, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i’m getting the impression that you dig carrasco…which is fine, i just know nothing. aside from young, can i ask what it is that you like about him? i’m curious…i literally know zero about him and haven’t been able to look at all the scouting posted here.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I like his peripherals, his age, his control, and the fact that scouts are high on him. I really think he and Knapp are good pickups, I’m not sold at all on the other two.
fair enough. thanks for responding.
i’m hearing in other spots that knapp is the “centerpiece” of the trade…which seems strange to take a guy that far from contributing as the key in return for 1.5 years of cliff.
arms, i get. marson and donald make no sense to me. i’m having trouble with those two.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
as Ryan hinted at, maybe not 1.5 years of Cliff but 3 months.
if we start viewing this trade as “for 3 months of Lee in a noncontending season”, it looks a helluva lot better.
You are reading my signature.
the idea being maybe there was no way they could pick up his 2010 option anyway.
But the fact is that Philly still could, so they ought to have offered more.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Are these at all chips we would use to trade elsewhere?
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Well I think we’ve found out who the sucker is and he doesn’t work for the Phillies
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I’m increasingly happy that Chris Antonetti remains in the organization. His time may be coming sooner than expected.
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
Thanks for the memories Cliff.
Good luck in the play-offs
Len Barker perfect game attendee
by SeattleVinny on Jul 29, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Color me confused at what Shapiro did here. I’m not an Indians fan, but it’s been, to say the least, interesting to follow you guys this year. Dealing Lee was going to happen at some point … but for this? I’m one that thinks Carrasco’s been a bit unfairly bashed and that he is still a solid arm … but he’s a mid-rotation arm at best, imo. You guys have arms equal or better than him. Sure, adding another helps, but eh. What’s the point of Donald? A utility infielder that might be able to start at short … but uh, that’s where Cabrera is. Marson? Guess that spells a Martinez or Shoppach trade soon, so can’t complain about Marson’s addition (he’s not good, but he’s a decent catcher). Knapp is very, very intriguing, but far, far away and just had shoulder problems (I think, he had some injury).
Geesh, I’m confused for you guys.
If Shapiro is operating under those guidelines, I guess trading Lee now makes sense. But I’m very unimpressed with the return. With CC (.5 year from free agency), the Indians got two guys I like better than anything in this trade.
if shapiro is operating under those guidelines…doesn’t it follow that we’re having conversations about moving wood right now, too?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
great question…you guys are smarter than i am…i honestly don’t even have a guess. although, it looked (to my HIGHLY trained eye) like that fuentes guy is not that good.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
but he’s KERRY WOOD!!!
good point. i got nothing.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
also a very good point…but i guess it depends a little bit on just HOW much salary shap is supposed to shed?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not as violently opposed to this as some here are. I think it raises some questions and suggests more moves are coming. But I think it also suggests that the Indians are putting some value on reducing payroll. I know they say they aren’t, but…
I’m honestly thinking about buying season tickets next year just for this reason
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Sickels has
1) Carlos Carrasco, RHP, Grade B: High ceiling, made progress this year, still erratic. Maybe a B+?
4) Jason Donald, SS, Grade B-: Still doubt he has the range for shortstop. But I like the bat a lot. Borderline Grade B?
8) Jason Knapp, RHP, Grade B-: High grade for a rookie ball pitcher, but I like him.
10) Lou Marson, C, Grade C+: Good plate discipline and defense, but batting average at Reading could be flukey.
Wait donald is a bad defensive shortstop but good with the bat? Because i’m not impressed by his battiing stats
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I believe last year at the deadline there was talk he might be better suited for 2B.
I really think we just acquired our utility guy for the next 6 years.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
With Garko gone, this makes sense.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
It makes more sense with Carroll a free agent, and the potential for zero acquisitions in the budget.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You missed the sarcasm of “utility guy.”
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
I’m missing a lot of sarcasm today. It might be the smoke from my ears.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess we all now know that Shapiro was probably getting pressure from the Dolans to shead payroll. Hope these guys work out.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:23 PM EDT reply actions
Maybe it was just impossible to get the AAA version of Kershaw or a Wade Davis. I mean, Halliday is still here. So couple that with the expense of his 8 mil option next year…
I’ve never been one to defend Francisco, but he’s still a minimum salary player next year (someone correct me if I’m wrong here) and is a better 4th OF than Crowe or Francisco, and I can’t imagine not including him holds up this trade.
very existential question…is Francisco a better 4th outfielder than Francisco? or is he worse? or, possibly, exactly equal…
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. Awful work on my part. Better than Crowe and Brantley was meant. Unless Brantley becomes legit pretty quickly.
obviously, just yanking your chain. although, i wasn’t sure who the second francisco was supposed to be, so thanks for clarifying.
seems like brantley needs all of ’10 at c-bus at this stage, right?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I could get behind this trade.
Only sort of kidding.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Shapiro’s wife made this trade?
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 29, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Guess we needed to restock our farm system to fill its biggest need. White guys…err middle class guys our fans can relate to
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t it supposed to be “working class”? Just trying to keep my euphemisms straight.
by Deep South Ken on Jul 29, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions
So this is purely a joke about trading guys after their Cy Young season, with no regard for Jake’s actual contract situation then…. Fair enough, just wanted to make sure I wasn’t missing something.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Lee and Francisco haven’t been told anything official yet. But they definitely have read the reports.
Latest Castro Tweet.
what is protocol? Do you pull these guys aside before hand and warn them … or just let them learn of it with their teammates.
I dunno.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m more interested in a Ben Francisco Tweet
by cleveland teamer on Jul 29, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
SI_JonHeyman#redsox talking a lot about victor martinez. will #bluejays be "stuck’’ with roy halladay?
At this point I would do anything for another pitching prospect.
Steel Nick
This is intriguing.
I bet its Masterson/Bowden
But judging by today’s logic its Lars Anderson
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t care what the Indians get for Victor, I’m going to be pissed if he gets dealt to the Sawx.
by Ryan on Jul 29, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I don’t really care. The truth is that he has a better shot of getting a ring in Boston than he does in Tampa.
Bottom line
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 29, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
And to think we still had until Friday …
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
Yeah, why does this reek of desperation if there is still time before the deadline?
by cleveland teamer on Jul 29, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
And from Keith Law
1. Jason Donald, SS ( 48 )
"Donald’s ability to play in the majors right now makes him a valuable property, both to the Phillies if they ask him to fill in for Chase Utley and to other clubs if the Phillies decide to trade him."
2. Carlos Carrasco, RHP ( 60 )
"He can look like a bona fide No. 2 starter in the big leagues…"
The number in paranteses is his Top 100 number .. his list only went to 5, so I haven’t seen what he thinks of Marson or Knapp yet
Couple updates … first from Castro:
could be hours before this is official, because of physicals.
Secondly, from resident funnyman Mike Polk.
If I’m driving around Cleveland and I see Larry Dolan I’m going to Stallworth him.
no it isn't
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Jul 29, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes he is. Bad joke, but that seems to be the general feeling.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Never saw that … but his Youtube video on the Ohio Secession Plan was classic.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
HAHAHAHA
Stallworth him…God I love being a Cleveland fan.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Frankly getting “Stallworthed” seems like you commit a crime, but get a slap on the wrist, no?
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
get paid an inordinate amount of money to produce virtually nothing of consequence?
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
not when the comment said “driving around” … if he just said Stallworth with no driving, it could be construed that way.
yeah, ultimately a wildly inappropriate comment
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Explain to me why we couldn’t have hung on to Cliff until 365 days from now and receive the exact same value?
Stuart Dean
I can think of two. I’ll wait for you to give me the other 7,999,998 (but keep them to one per comment — I’ll lose my place if I can’t Z through one by one).
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Would you have traded Lee for Drabek straight up?
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
I think I’ve said this like 4 times, but I still don’t understand this at all.
*sigh*
by zempf on Jul 29, 2009 2:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
FIRE SALE!
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 29, 2009 2:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
so we are a mid-to-small market team that relies heavily on ticket sales to have a competitive payroll. In a city with +10% unemployment. WTF
This is a salary dump death-spiral -
1) Ticket sales are down due to a boring non-competive team and a terrible economy
2) cut payroll by trading our best pitcher for junk
3) excitement plummets in the fanbase
4) Tickets sales take an even bigger dive
5) more payroll cut (good players traded away) … etc … etc
Short of starting next season like the 1984 tigers, expect to see ~10K a game at the Jake next year
Maybe not today…. maybe not tomorrow…. but Friday…. probably by Friday.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Sounds like the RedSox might be moving toward something assuming they don’t land Halladay.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Maybe the Indians hired the same doctor that did Omar Vizquel’s physical in 2003.
by Ryan on Jul 29, 2009 2:38 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
does this mean
we are counting on Fausto to get his stuff together, make a triumphant return to the bigs and be our ace???
Yes, I guess, I mean, I don’t know. Who knows anything really?
Railing against the sacrifice bunt since 2000.
SIGH
the future looks awfully bleak from this side of the world. a dark shadow is going to be cast over Cleveland for a long time…
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 29, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions
There is literally no reason to continue to use the subject line.
You’ve been asked not to.
It adds nothing.
I’m concluding you do it to piss people off.
Steel Nick
or because i wasn’t aware. see below. damn
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 29, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
no one ever said it was a rule that we weren’t going to use it. just that you all thought i was being obnoxious FOR using it
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 29, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
They take this rule seriously around here. Which is fine because I think it makes reading the comment easier, but I don’t know of other SBN blogs that are like this, so it’s easy to be confused at first.
There aren’t many. It makes it hard to read the other ones.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I agree, but when newbies come and post here, they may not be aware of the hatred of subject lines around here, so I think we can cut them some slack.
We do. We say “We don’t use the subject lines.”
Blazer_whatever has made more than 40 comments on this site.
Steel Nick
all anyone had to say was ‘hey we’re not using subject lines here anymore because of…’
i wasn’t asking anyone to crucify me over it…
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 29, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Pissed for now…in two years, we’ll probably all be eating our words like most of the Shapiro trades. If only he could bring us a championship after this year’s trades instead of more trades, we’d all die happy.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
It means we still aren’t using subject lines.
by Brad D on Jul 29, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
my bad. didn’t know there was a written rule
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 29, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Probably not much…he’s old (27 I think) and I think they’re ready to give the 4th outfield spot to Crowe. I think they were just moving an expendable piece.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Good for Cliff
I bet he is happy as heck to get out of Cleveland and play for a team that actually wants to win baseball games.
If any of these guys pan out I am sure in a few years, after another crappy season we will trade them for cheaper options as well.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
Gee thanks Brick
I’ll not be angry or upset because you don’t like what I am saying.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Jul 29, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh yeah. My bad. don’t post here a lot. Forgot the subject line was banned.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Jul 29, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions
as far as I know.
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Jul 29, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions
play for a team that actually wants to win baseball games
excellent, penetrating insight. the indians, obviously, do not want to win baseball games. well done.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, THIS makes me feel better: Per Ben Badler at BA:
Knapp has above-average pitches, but control, mechanics, health all concerns. Out since July 11 with shoulder injury
hahaha oh god it’s so horrible it’s becoming funny at this point
Needs to work on: not spontaneously self-combusting
strengths: makes a mean spaghetti sauce from scratch
areas for improvement: baseball
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
any possibility he doesn’t pass his physical?
by clusterchuck on Jul 29, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I would suppose there’s always that chance.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Still… what would that do? Other teams would say, “so Lee can be had that cheaply, can he? No more good offers from us.”
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Excellent! Then we can keep him. Any owner who wouldn’t love Lee’s 2010 salary should not be in the business.
[deleted, profanity]
Yeah, okay, but it sounds like we can’t keep him.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Great, you gonna buy the team then? You know what’s not a valuable asset at this point? the CLEVELAND INDIANS
/first stage of grief
Knapp already hits 95-97 mph from what I’ve read.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
When he’s pitching.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we need it at this point, as much as it pains me to say it.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Per ESPN:
Indians Deal Lee for SS, C and Two Belly Itchers
by cleveland teamer on Jul 29, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shapiro has never lost a trade. Everyone getting their hackles up is assuming they have all the information Shapiro has. They don’t.
Do I like it on the surface? Not necessarily. Do I think I am in a place to evaluate it right now? No.
In other news: calm down.
by afh4 on Jul 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Brandon Phillips, Milton Bradlely
different circumstance but stll
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Never?
I have Jeroime Robertson and Scott Stewart on lines 1 and 2.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
No, I’m just kidding with you …
He’s actually excelled in these types of trades … and you know what, you’re completely correct when you say we have no idea how this will turn out.
I can honestly say I hope it turns out great … and I’m not jumping off a bridge about it.
That said, I’m not sure my initial feeling is positive.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Overstated, but essentially true.
However, we’re in an environment where people are advocating vehicular homicide. I’m afraid you’re shouting into a hurricane here.
by spreidel on Jul 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
No. I’m not going to calm down. This whole Shapiro has information we don’t have thing is crap and generally, we’ve been pretty good as a group at gauging the relative merits of these trades. The best explanation is that his hand was forced by ownership and I think that makes a lot of sense, considering the information we have at our disposal.
generally, we’ve been pretty good as a group at gauging the relative merits of these trades.
This is arrogance. All we’ve ever done is said “Shapiro did a good job.” There’s never been anything else to say.
That’s not true. I remember a tepid reaction about the DeRosa trade. I also remember a lot of dissention about the Barfield/Kouzmanoff.
It’s pretty easy to look back at Cabrera, Choo, et al and say it’s been a Blitzkrieg of success but there have been some stumbles along the way and I think LGT has done a good job of assessing all of it.
So, the two trades your claiming this community came down on were a DeRosa trade that the Indians clearly won and a swap of two lousy players?
Yeah, we’re a real group of seers.
Hey, Andrews, chill.
We’re all friends here.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not trying to do that. I’m just saying, I think we’ve got a pretty high opinion of ourselves here sometimes and it might be useful to remember that, despite what we like to think, we don’t know what deals Shapiro was looking at and we don’t actually know anything about these prospects except for the numbers.
I can get on board with this, even if I don’t like the deal.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
We don’t know what Bavasi or Colletti was looking at, and only knew those prospects by their numbers, does that mean we can’t be too critical of them?
Um, ya know what? No. This is what happens at a trade deadline. People make snap judgments of trades as they’re happening. Right now, this looks bad. Could it get better? Sure. But christ, what’s wrong with people venting frustration?
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 29, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me pre-empt a reaction here by saying that came off more dick-ish than I meant. Just a little irked about this. Doing my own venting I suppose.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
D-Bowe, Mark Bradley, Bobby Engram and Turtle. Four Chiefs WRers. 4 Pro Bowlers.
by Patrick Allen on Jul 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s boring. It’s adding nothing to a discourse. And it’s pushing new and newish members away from the standard we try to uphold.
You want to say you don’t like it? Fine.
You want to extrapolate that into the pitchforks and torches and multiple profanity laced posts? I’m going to ask you to calm down.
A trade like this does not exactly illicit instant brilliant discourse. People are allowed to have opinions. Yes, even if they are strong. I’m not saying they need to repeat things over and over (and I certainly don’t think that’s what most people are doing), but you must allow a little more lee-weigh on this type of thing than in other threads.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 29, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree with this. It’s a fan website for the love, of course people are going to have conflicting opinions. Sometimes we take ourselves too seriously.
You don’t think the first 350 posts were enough leeway? I’m not telling anyone not to have an opinion. I didn’t go through and warn everybody who flew off the handle.
It’s been an hour. It’s time to calm down and either say something useful or simmer down.
Well, I’ve been working in the past hour and missed the first 350 comments. Does that mean I can’t come in and comment? I just think you’re being unnecessarily reactionary.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 29, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Phil, I didn’t even ask you not to do or say anything! As far as I can tell your contributions to this thread have all been reasonable.
All I did was tell everyone, generally, to chill out a little. As in, stop typing all caps profanity and saying things like “Glad Cliff can go somewhere where the goal is to win games.”
You didn’t do any of those things. I don’t think you’re a big supporter of those things. So what are we even talking about?
You’re right, my apologies. I probably missed a lot in the first 300 comments… didn’t have time to read up on them. But yeah, this is a silly argument. Your advice is rational, and I agree. I don’t like the trade right now, but there’s obviously a lot to think about and it clearly can’t be fully assessed just yet.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 29, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly I’m just going to step away for a while. It’s not like I’m fuming but there’s nothing new to read/talk about. Might as well clear my head and come back later.
Steel Nick
Mike Tyson was 37-0 before he lost to Buster Douglas. Muhammad Ali was 31-0 before he lost to Joe Frazier.
CHAMPIONSHIP!
~ It's no fun throwing fastballs to guys who can't hit them. The real challenge is getting them out on stuff they can hit ~ Sam McDowell
by elsandito on Jul 29, 2009 2:45 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Ugh.
We could have gotten this much next year at this time…
Also, I am sad to see BenFran go. He is a solid 4th outfielder.
Ben had grown on me actually… I’d rather see Laporta, though…
by ToledoTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing. They weren’t willing to even talk Kershaw or Billingsly
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:48 PM EDT up reply actions
which is why I’m guessing we went the Knapp route with Philly.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I miss Ben Fran.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 2:51 PM EDT reply actions
I wasn’t joking.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t miss a career .768 OPS from a corner OF, but that’s just me.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
Well, I don’t actually miss him, I’m just expressing disappointment.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m almost done posting my cycle of emotions. I may be stuck on sad for awhile.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Could be a good poll question: what emotional stage are you at with the Cliff Lee trade?
A) Denial
B) Anger
C) Bargaining
D) Depression
E) Acceptance
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
I cycle through anger fast. I don’t like to be angry.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I guess I’m at D right now. Depending on how the game goes I may get to E sometime this afternoon.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
OK, well then we should definitely be trading Carroll and Pavano at least, if payroll problems are this bad?
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 2:52 PM EDT reply actions
So maybe we can fleece prospects for them, and we’ll all feel a bit better?
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not this is as much about this year’s payroll and what they’re looking at for next year’s payroll.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Money doesn’t rollover? I’m honestly stupid on this.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions
As in, if we pocket a few million from getting rid of them this year, why wouldn’t that make a difference in next year’s payroll? So we make a few million more this year, why can’t we just say “Oh well we did a little better than we thought last year (because of these hypothetical trades), so we can do a little worse this year?”)
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, it will help.
But keep in mind, moving both of them would save maybe a million or 3 … and that’s about it.
You know what, it might help you sign Alex White.
But, long term, I’m sure the FO is running their models based on deficit spending this season, declining attendance, projected attendance, etc.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m curious about the market value of the team these days, compared to what Dolan (over)paid for it ($325MM or so – I forget the exact number). It’s probably not prudent to borrow more money to make up operating deficits when your team is not increasing in value. That’s what I’m thinking.
by kennesawmountainwahoo on Jul 29, 2009 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions
after two subpar outings, not sure anyone’s gunna touch Pavano.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly, to unload him you might have to pay for him anyways.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
You also probably have a run-in with the union. Not as easy as it sounds.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t he have a bunch of escalating clauses in his contract (based on IP) that could make his contract more expensive?
It started at $1.5, I was already assuming some of them. But I didn’t even bother to check Cot’s.
Steel Nick
He hasn’t hit any of his innings yet … 30 shy of the first marker I think.
I believe he’s picking up cash with essentially every other start now.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll have no problem with this.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, it would take the incentives he’s hitting right out of the equation … and make the second set that much more difficult.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Not sure why everyone keeps slotting Carmona in at #2. By default? Does it even matter?
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 29, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Until I see otherwise, they are all #4s.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
Laffey’s proven he could be a 3 in my book….but the rest….I got nothing.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
assuming he’s healthy, absolutely. Right now, we don’t know with the injury.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
No, it doesn’t matter. But Carmona is bound to be better than the other ones. Except maybe Laffey. Is Carrasco even in the rotation next year?
He’s gotta be, otherwise what’s the point of getting him, right?
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
i just saw he may report direct to Cleveland…take cliff’s spot.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 29, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Might as well throw in a free agent type (Pavano, Byrd, Millwood)…Shapiro usually always finds one that will win 10-12 games.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Pavano of 2010 = Tomo Ohka
~ It's no fun throwing fastballs to guys who can't hit them. The real challenge is getting them out on stuff they can hit ~ Sam McDowell
I hate you.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
Attempt at humor. 500 posts within first hour = the natives are restless. If we could harness all this negative energy, we could make the playoffs this year.
~ It's no fun throwing fastballs to guys who can't hit them. The real challenge is getting them out on stuff they can hit ~ Sam McDowell
not sure there’s a reason to. Get two more pitchers from boston if able.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m in agreement about the whole “calm down, take a step back” approach. It’s something that I’ve learned from reading this blog. My thoughts:
This does indeed suck
It’s par for the course
Shaprio being a genius at getting value for our good stuff hasn’t won us anything
All things being equal, I want a championship and Shaprio hasn’t shown me he can do it
Most GMs have shown they can’t do it.
Because, honestly, outside of a $200m payroll, it’s really fricking hard.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
5 out of the 6 divisions in baseball right now are being lead by the team with the highest payroll.
Only exception is the second place Cubs.
by Bernie19Kosar on Jul 29, 2009 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
One more thing, didn’t Shapiro say no Lee trade unless he was “blown away.” Does this trade blow you away?
This is the nugget that explains what has happened. Some time between that Shapiro comment and today the Dolans met with Shapiro and issued additional instructions. This has to be a Doland imposed budget tightener. Unfortuantely, it will forever reflect on Shapiro’s record.
~ It's no fun throwing fastballs to guys who can't hit them. The real challenge is getting them out on stuff they can hit ~ Sam McDowell
No, it’s not. the reason most of us hate this trade is because compared to Shapiro’s other trades, it looks bad. Shapiro’s major trades have all been winners. This one appears not to be, but perhaps he knows something we don’t. He certainly knows many things we don’t.
Keith Law will be on the Cleveland ESPN Radio affliliate at 430 discussing the deal if anyone cares.
whatever that affiliate is.
Good gravy I just remembered theres a game on in half an hour. Not sure I even want to listen.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 3:05 PM EDT reply actions
that’d be just what we all need right now.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
So, uh, when’s MLB going to get a salary cap?
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 3:05 PM EDT reply actions
It’s kind of hard to support a league when you only have the teams in big markets.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps they could go to a Premiership model with the ‘elite’ teams playing in one league, and all the rest in another.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
On the bright side, The Worst Baseball Team in the World plays a day game soon, so we can bitch in a different thread.
So when Carlos Santana finally wins the Lou Marson Award for Best Catcher of the Year, we’ll all look back on this and share a hearty chuckle.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
this should distract from the outrage about the loss of garko’s rbi’s
by Brick. on Jul 29, 2009 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Lou Marson is not a good baseball name. He should change it to Danger.
Danger Marson. Works for me.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
This annual, mid-late summer fire sale by the Tribe front office is getting to be a tired act. It’s time to actually win some games and stop planning/strategizing for 2013 and beyond.
Some of us may be gone by then …
by SpringTrainingFun on Jul 29, 2009 3:46 PM EDT reply actions
Well it’s going to suck for you when the fans are still here and you’ve given up.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 29, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
V-Mart
What are the chances that Victor Martinez will still be an Indian in 48 hours?
Chicks dig the long ball.
the fact that he’s in the lineup today is somewhat promising. as for the last 24 hours, who knows.
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 29, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
PS. i recommend you don’t use subject lines in the future. from what i’ve heard, they frown upon that kinda thing around here…
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Jul 29, 2009 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slug=ap-phillies-indianstrade&prov=ap&type=lgns
“The deal is pending medical reviews. Those reviews could take a while because three of the players the Indians are getting from Philadelphia have dealt with recent injuries.”
This concerns me a bit…
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