Trading Cliff Lee, and other related cliffs
by Jay on Jul 29, 2009 7:34 PM EDT
in Analysis
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PrintIt's now official — Cliff Lee and Ben Francisco have been traded to the Phillies. The Indians receive four highly rated prospects back in the deal: RHP Carlos Carrasco, shortstop Jason Donald, and catcher Lou Marson, all from Triple-A Lehigh Valley, and RHP Jason Knapp, way down in Low-A ball but potentially the "big fish" of the deal.
This trade marks the most significant sea-change for the club since the Bartolo Colon deal that brought Lee to the Indians seven years ago. Sabathia was arguably a more significant player for the franchise, but the Sabathia trade didn't mark a significant change in direction for the franchise. This trade is more significant, because it was a trade of choice, not of necessity. That is, the Indians faced Sabathia's impending free agency and could not re-sign him; it would have been moronic not to trade him last July.
Lee, however, had a club-friendly option for 2010 in his contract, just as Colon did in 2002, as so just like Colon, he could have been part of a contending charge at reasonable dollars the following season. The Indians traded Colon because they just didn't see the pieces in front of them to contend in 2003. One has to wonder what they are now saying about 2010. It isn't necessarily that they didn't think they could contend with Cliff Lee on the roster (and his paycheck ont he payroll) in 2010. It may be only that they don't think that's their best bet.
Does that mean that they are tanking 2010? Not necessarily — not even if Victor Martinez is dealt in the next 45 hours, as may well happen. But the Indians can't and don't ever think about how to contend in one particular season, but rather over multiple seasons. This isn't about contending or tanking in 2010; it's about contending as much as possible over the next three or four seasons.
This trade raises so many Big Issues for the Indians, one hardly knows where to start. Rather than writing 1000 words on each one, I'll try to go over some of the broad strokes in a paragraph or two.
THE PROSPECTS: Two themes emerge in reading about the four prospects we're getting back. One is upside, and the other is that now more than ever, the Indians obviously do not give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks about the moves they make. Reminiscent of the Chisenhall draft pick, each comes with obvious reasons for doubt -- Carrasco has a high ERA, Donald is coming off an injury that has hampered his hitting, Marson seems punchless, and Knapp (the supposed prize) was recently shut down with shoulder soreness.
The Indians don't care — in fact, one suspects they almost like this sort of thing. Doubts scare away other clubs and drive down a prospect's valuation. The Indians no doubt are confident that Carrasco has pitched into some bad luck and defenses, that Donald is already a big league-ready player who will recover quickly, that Marson is more useful than he seems, and especially — especially — that Knapp's injury is insignificant, that his shutdown was out of an abundance of caution.
If these four guys had been Our Guys prior to this season, what would we be saying about them now? One thing I'll tell you for sure, we'd be howling if our club had traded Jason Knapp, a flame-throwing 18-year-old with great big piles of strikeouts. Everyone wants to talk about Kyle Drabek now, but six months ago, Carrasco was the Phillies' top-rated pitching prospect and one of the top dozen in the world. The Indians aren't impressed by a few months of excitement out of a player at any age. They like long track records.
DEALS LIKE THIS: They work, and nobody in the business does them better than Shapiro. The Indians have problems, maybe systemic failures, maybe incurable incompetencies. But this isn't one of them. There is no question that deals like this have been highly effective for the Indians, even if little else has gone right. Regardless of how long we go without getting to the World Series, it most definitely is not time to "try something new" in this particular area, and anyone who says otherwise should have his or her head examined.
THE PR PROBLEM: I said it a couple weeks ago, and I'll stick with it now. This is the best possible time to make outrageous moves that inflame the fans, because the team is already at rock-bottom. Two miserable disappointments in a row, the body fanatic does not really believe this team will contend with or without Cliff Lee (or Victor Martinez). Trading Lee does not make it worse, because it could be no worse. The only cure for this is winning, so the Indians are right to concern themselves only with winning, as best they see fit. I'm not saying this is the right move for winning, but I am saying that they're right to consider the PR situation a lost cause, paying it no mind. (Not that Shapiro has ever let public sentiment influence his big decisions anyway.)
THE MONEY PROBLEM: I think the Indians genuinely didn't need to trade anyone, having already jettisoned Mrk DeRosa, Rafael Betancourt and Ryan Garko. I think they were worried not about cutting payroll generally, but about restoring some flexibility to their situation (while seeding the system with talent of course). Donald suggests strongly that they will prepare for a roster without a veteran backup like Jamey Carroll on it, and perhaps without Jhonny Peralta. Marson suggests that they have no intention of paying arbitration dollars to both Martinez and Shoppach — and why should they? There are great things you can say about all those players, but we have the young players to plug in and conserve another $10 million, aside from Lee's salary.
In planning the roster from a financial standpoint, the first obligation of a club is to ensure that it can pay its own best, youngest players through their arbitration years. Not pre-arbitration guys, who are always affordable, and not our just-okay arbitration guys, whom we may as well trade (and almost always do). But our best guys, coming into arbitration. If you can't pay those guys, you're just shooting yourself in the foot. I don't know what offseason acquisition may be made possible by the money savings the club will achieve this week. I do know that we have some work to do in locking up at least a couple of young guys, starting with Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin-Soo Choo.
THE SYSTEMIC PROBLEM: Given that outrage seems to be a way of life for many Indians fans, it's amazing how little of it is directed at MLB's financial structure, which has clubs raking in the bulk of all revenue from local TV deals, creating an imbalance among club resources that topped $100 million per year by the time the YES Network debuted in 2002. Unlike the NFL and NBA, MLB has teams competing on a vastly un-level playing field, one which equates into a 20- to 30-win advantage for some clubs over others. Everyone acts like this is business as usual, but it's not. The Knicks cannot offer LeBron James one dime more than the Cavs will, let alone twice as much. In the NFL, cap management is the organizing principle of roster management.
We could not re-sign Sabathia, and we could not have re-signed Lee. As much as we hate to say it, we should not re-sign Victor Martinez — no, really, we shouldn't. None of this is the fault of Indians ownership or management, but it's still worth getting mad about. Indians fans are mad as hell, but why aren't they mad as hell at the system?
THE VICTOR PROBLEM: Victor is the heart and soul of this club, but realistically, we can't keep him. He may want to finish his career as an Indian, but how much under market would he have to be willing to take to make it a smart move for the club? I love having Victor now. I love his hitting, I love his defense around first base, I love that he's a solid catcher. Moving forward into his 30's, however, he becomes one of two things: Either an aging catcher, when we know that catchers don't age at all well, or good-not-great hitter in slow decline at a non-skill position. I can't see how the Indians can invest even $40 million in either one of those assets, and while I could be "clever" and devise a hybrid role that makes it look like a good value — squinting through rose-colored eyelashes — it would only be a rationalizing for keeping a player who has been extremely productive and beyond likable.
If you're asking me to come up with a way to justify keeping Victor, I can do it. But if you're asking me, purely objectively, how the Indians try to beat the odds in 2011 and beyond, it doesn't involve Victor. That's the brutal truth. So the question of whether to trade him this week isn't really about whether we could extend Victor. It's really only about what we do since we know we won't extend him beyond 2010. And it is that sad fact — along with the need for at least one more major league-ready pitcher for the rotation — that is going to get him traded. Kelly Shoppach is about to become the new Josh Bard — a perfectly good young catcher who is keeping the spot warm for a sensational prospect. We now have three guys who can back up Shoppach and provide depth. This brutal week is about to get tougher.
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Per Ed Price … from the Shapiro newser I’m assuming:
GM Mark Shapiro says he traded Lee because he won’t be able to add in winter & didn’t think Cle could contend in ’10 w/current club
Fausto Carmona will take Cliff Lee spot in #Indians rotation
Carrasco, Donald and Marson will report to AAA Columbus, Knapp assigned to Class A Lake County
I think somewhere deep down inside me, I’m actually excited for the idea of seeing younger team on the field … without the needless extra free agents.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, i will say this—ironically, blowing it all up will give me a reason to watch the games again.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 8:46 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m with this. seeing marte, laporta…potentially rondon, the prospect of seeing santana (though outside, i know), any of these philly guys…i’m back in.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 31, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
The merit of the package aside (I’m coming around on that), is anyone else worried about the timing of this deal, relative to a Martinez deal? It seems much more clear to everyone now that Shapiro all but needs to trade Victor now, which wasn’t the case before the Lee deal. This presumably reduces their leverage in getting a package of maximum value for Martinez (although I can definitely see the rationale if Donald was obtained as a chip-to-flip). Shapiro is obviously a lot smarter than I about negotiation, and so he presumably has considered this and weighed the alternatives, but if nothing else, I wonder if this constitutes further evidence that Donald will be re-traded.
Not literally “need”, but it seems clear to me now that the decision about whether or not to trade Victor is an unambiguous one. Now, of course, if they just don’t get a worthwhile offer, they still won’t, but my point above is that it’s possible that the best offer they get will be just above the threshold of what they were willing to do, instead of well above it. And the reason is because the threshold itself has gone down with Cliff gone.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
We still don’t have to trade Vic. More importantly we still don’t have to trade vic before the trade deadline.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 8:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Castro keeps implying that Victor will get moved now. I think it’s a matter of his value at this point and the fact that, if we’re rebuilding for 2011, our projected catcher is Santana, and lord knows we have more than enough first baseman.
-Kyle
I also just get the sense that the Indians are seeing Lee and Vic as a pair, if not in the same deal then being traded at the same time.
Yeah, I suppose it’s a matter of giving up on next year. If they don’t see a place for Victor on the 2011 squad, there’s no point in keeping him around during a lost season next year when they can trade him now.
Doesn’t make me like it, though.
-Kyle
But as I said in another thread, trading Victor or not trading Victor is not what determines whether they can contend next year. If anything, trading Lee did that (although I don’t quite believe that either). At this point, trading Victor for young pitching is a win-win, in that it is good for both the short-term and long term success of the club. If they don’t contend next year, it is unlikely to be because of their offense — it will be because their rotation and bullpen have too many question marks. But that is what they are — question marks. It is not hard for me to imagine that if more goes right than wrong with their pitching, they will be a contender next year. And increasing the number of “coin flips” you get by trading Victor increases those odds more than it hurts the offense, in my opinion.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, actually. If the focus is on 2011 now, then it should be on 2011. It makes me sad, sure, but they’ve obviously made the decision — there’s no turning back now. I would expect Victor, Carroll, and Peralta to all go in the next 48 hours.
-Kyle
by Kyle Garret on Jul 29, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure what you’re agreeing with, but okay.
I don’t expect Peralta to go yet. At the very least not until they have a better sense of what they’ve got in Marte.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t about contending or tanking in 2010; it’s about contending as much as possible over the next three or four seasons.
Because that’s gone so well during this era.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 29, 2009 8:01 PM EDT reply actions
From the point of view of acquiring talent, keeping our farm system stocked and putting a good team on the field it has.
Our issues are primarily performance related. Yes that falls under the command of the front office, but its left hand – right hand.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 8:09 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Small market teams generally have to build a club from their own talent, and generally have maybe one or two shots to go the distance before these guys are too expensive. Like Jay said, “that’s the system”. This team had its chance in 2007. Guys got too expensive. We must now, sort of start over. We’re not completely starting over (don’t ever one jump down my throat here)….but we’ve got some questions at starting pitcher and relief pitching. Maybe these spots work themselves out next year and we compete. Maybe it takes our stock pile a few years to develop. But the fact of the matter is, these kinds of trades have worked in our favor…we’ll just have to be patient again.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The shame is … 2005 was the beginning of the team coming together.
2006 got shot down by an epically bad bullpen.
2007 was the chance as you said.
2008 has its share of injures, as well as another comically bad bullpen.
2009 is hitting rock bottom.
I agree 100% with Jay that you really probably can’t piss off your fan base much more anyways, so you might have to make the unpopular move.
I just hope as this next generation gels … we find more 2007’s than 2006’s, 8’s and 9’s.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Amen to that last line. Let’s hope. It just seems like we’re always missing one piece. If its not the bullpen, its bad free agent pickups, if its not that its injuries. But, I guess that why only one team wins each year.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 29, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
For the record, I don’t need to be preached to about small market limitations.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 29, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
We had 5 shots at it (05, 06, 07, 08, 09). 07 we were a game away from a World Series Championship, and 05 we were done in during the last week of the regular season. The other years, well, bullpens.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Seems wrong that Cliff goes and Vic may go but Wedge stays.
I know that’s a cleveland.com comment but i dont care right now.
same, considering I think Wedge manages next year too. Probably an even greater chance of it now that the team is getting younger again.
[deleted, profanity]
Perhaps; then again, if we’re “starting over,” perhaps they’ll start over with a new manager (perhaps AAA Columbus manager Torey Lovullo, AAA pitching coach Scott Radinsky, and AAA hitting coach Jon Nunally). After all, a lot of the prospects coming up have either worked with that trio or have no familiarity at all with Wedge/Willis/Shelton – I’m not saying that’s the reason you make a move (after all, what prospects are familiar with a ML’s coaching staff), but at the same time, now might be the optimal time to make a move on that front as well.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Maybe we got our value but if our value was different than perceived value, perhaps we should have gotten more of both perceived and our value?
Stuart Dean
Of course, but it’s certainly in their interest to act as though they don’t value those guys as much as they do, arguing that they really should supplement them. Again though, Shapiro is shrewd, and I’m sure he maximized “our value”.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 9:43 PM EDT up reply actions
I was thinking the same thing. The primes of Lee, Sabathia, Westbrook, Hafner, 1/2 of Sizemore, Peralta, and most outrageously Martinez have been wasted thanks to the last 5 years of Wedge. Hey, you can probably make a better argument for wasting B. Phillips also.
Again, this comment is cleveland.com-ish, but I get emotional thinking about how disgusting this has turned out.
Also, the last five years of Shapiro’s inability to construct a bullpen. Let’s not absolve the man just because he trades well.
I put most of the bullpen on Wedge. Lots of teams have started with bullpens that were much worse on paper than the tribe’s, but very few of these have a performance as bad.
Managers have been traded in the past.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 29, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not sure where to put this, but Freddy Sanchez can really get you Alderson? What if they had sent Francisco there with Garko? As much as I’ll give Shapiro the benefit of the doubt for now, I’d feel a lot better dealing with a team we know we were ripping off.
Yes. Alderson for Sanchez. Just saw this myself and nearly threw up.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Prove to me we didn’t rip off the Giants already.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Whenever I preach the failings of the MLB financial structure to the so called average fan, he is completely unmoved. The standard response is that the owner should not have bought a mid market team unless he was willing to spend whatever it takes to win a championship. The implication here is that sports team owners shouldn’t have a franchise to show a profit, but because they are such huge fans, that they’d be willing to operate in the red indefinitely, if necessary. Otherwise, stay out of the business of sports. Clearly, the American educational system has failed the average fan, who cannot understand the basis of investments or any other financial concepts.
~ It's no fun throwing fastballs to guys who can't hit them. The real challenge is getting them out on stuff they can hit ~ Sam McDowell
by elsandito on Jul 29, 2009 8:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Agreed. You either have to be an outrageously rich fan or an outrageously good businessman.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Sports is different like mrich says but it has been stated that the best owners are not actually fans (as in they get emotionally connected to players and stuff) but business people who like sports. That said I don’t understand anything about the financial structure of baseball or any other sport. It all goes over my head.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Jacobs was a businessman, Dolan is a fan. And Dolan is the one who is criticized while Jacobs is revered. Isn’t that funny?
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 29, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Wrong spot for this, but just started watching the TB/NY game… What’d Justin jackassingly do this time?
[deleted, profanity]
made longoria hit the dirt
i thoroughly enjoyed watching texeira get drilled
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Jay, good read so far.
I suppose I was overly optimistic about 2010. If Shapiro and team had already raised the white flag on next year, and this is the best deal they could get for Lee…then it was the right decision. I came across this article today, which is a Shapiro interview from June 2007. Some quotes below that appear consistent with today’s trades:
It’s a significant challenge for us in the market that we operate within because our threshold for risk has to be so much more finite than a larger market team. We have to be so much more careful and cognizant of what an injury on a large contract or a drop in performance will do to our ability to sustain a championship caliber team. So, I think it’s never a challenge to sign, and secure, and retain talent. The question is, if you do that, are you then creating too big of a challenge in creating a championship team around that player.
In isolation, we can look at retaining any player, the challenge is when you break outside of the isolation, the perspective, can we build a championship team around that player? Are we maintaining the balance to do that?
and…
The second answer to the question that you asked is yes, it is our obligations to constantly, regardless of our spot in the standings, be attempting to improve the team. It is a challenging market to do that. The backdrop of our protectiveness of our young players always has to be there because that’s really our greatest ability to compete and win here, but with that being said, we are active, very active, and diligent in the area of trying to secure more talent.
and what did he really say? sorry that is just double talk. I know we had to trade Lee, because this team really sucked, but he is the one that put it together, and with Wedge’s helped mess it up even more. I think it is time for new management. His over all approch does not seem to be working. Yes he makes good trades of our major league player for prospects, but his drafts suck, most of the free agents signing suck, his trading of major leaguers for major leaguers sucks . Hammer me, kick my ass, but something is wrong when we can not compete in the worst division in the AL.
Fan in Texas
Unless the Dolans’ and Shapiro’s team mission is to compete for the AL Central two out of every six years (2005 and 2007), then I agree that Shapiro and his team have failed, which is why they are now rebuilding the pitching staff. One can argue both sides to whether Shapiro should stay or go, but what I would be more interested in learning is how is this rebuilding effort going to be better than the last one. What were the lessons learned, or is it all a game of chance and they are just rolling the dice again?
Castro’s take on the Shapiro news conference:
Key outtake:
With Lee and his $9 million 2010 option off the books, the Indians might have some money to commit to offseason construction, but Shapiro said he has no idea how much. The Indians are not ruling out a miraculous run at contention next year, but with the depth of talent from Double-A up to the big leagues, they feel they can put together a sustained run of contention starting in 2011.
That’s probably why – Crowe can back up CF, whereas LaPorta can’t.
No offense to Grady, but I almost wish he would just shut it down for the year, get his elbow right (surgery, etc.) and come back fresh for 2010. That way, you could find out about Crowe (we should, I presume) in CF and LaPorta in LF. You could also mix Brown between 1B/LF as well.
Just a thought on Grady.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
maybe not what we’ve come to expect from previous years, (perhaps when prospects and players under salary control were not valued as they are today), but this is a nice little haul. the position players didn’t look like much to me at first, but look better after a closer look at the stats. donald has never been young for his level, but slugging 491,497 and on-basing 386, 391 at ages 22-23 at A+ and AA respectively is nothing to shake a stick at. would like to hear more about whatever injury is hampering his swing this year. marson on-based 433 last year at AA at age 22 and got a cup of coffee, and has on-based 384 as a 23-year-old in 207 AAA ab’s this season.
and am i wrong that jess todd is the best player we’ve picked up this season and he was a (special, but nevertheless) PTBNL in exchange for half a year of derosa?
I don’t know if that makes me feel good or bad.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
but he’s a reliever and Carrasco is a starter. There’s an inherent discrepancy there.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions
This brutal week is about to get tougher.
this is so credited. does anyone else think that the victor trade is all but final? i mean, there is no plausible reason to think he will be in a tribe uni on saturday, what with shapiro’s comment that he didn’t think we could contend in 2010 with the current club.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 8:48 PM EDT reply actions
I’d say it’s at least 60-70% certain that Victor will be traded between now and them.
I hate to bring this up, but I think bobblehead night for Victor Martinez is this Saturday, if I remember correctly. Wouldn’t that be something if the Martinez bobblehead is passed out shortly after Vic is traded? Think the fans might show up just to get a “last piece” of Victor before there is no more mention or indication of him as an Indian?
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
It’s a Saturday. That’s when you give out bobbleheads.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions
But it doesn’t have to be the Saturday immediately following the trading deadline.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Well done, Jay, and neatly encapsulates where my feelings have been headed since the initial reaction.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 8:52 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah, met too. I find myself really bummed out tonight about the reality of trying to compete within the current system
-Erik
That is exactly where my anger and disappointment has gone.
DON'T TRADE CLIFF FOR THAT!
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
I want to believe that Mark is smart enough to stay ahead of the curve and that we can field a routinely competitive team. But after watching the promise of 2008 and 2009 just evaporate, I’m finding little hope to hold onto right now. The system is just totally screwed up.
-Erik
That’s what the lack of a true salary cap will do, and without a significant strike, that likely won’t change anytime soon. That’s why basketball and football teams have the advantage when it comes to competing regularly, and they don’t have to be from the East or West coast to do it, but in baseball, unless you’re the Yankees, Red Sox, and maybe the Angels and Dodgers, the markets is not set up to where the Indians, Twins, A’s, and other similar teams can compete year in and year out without suffering through some “drought periods” in regards to rebuilding and not contending. It can be extremely frustrating; let’s just hope we’re back on the contending side very soon (2011 at the latest, maybe even make a surprise run in 2010 – who knows?)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
OK, so a general financial restructuring is needed.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You could probably argue that either one would level the playing field, but neither is individually necessary.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Who’s going to strike? The players, and the Players’ Association, love it the way it is. ESPN, et al., love it the way it is. The Yankees and Red Sox and Angels and Dodgers love the system the way it is. The only way it changes is if the small and middle market teams band together and refuse to play unless they get a share of the local revenues.
Though I’m probably not alone in expressing that, the system being what it is now, I feel much better rooting for a small/medium market club than the alternative. I’ll take the drought periods in exchange for the ridiculous elation that comes from beating the system, if always only occasionally. That’s a feeling Red Sox fans ipso facto don’t get to experience.
From, Ben
I’m not going to complain much about baseball’s structural problems. They are certainly there, but I feel like that is just part of the reality of Cleveland. This might be how my Cleveland self-hate/fatalistic loathing manifests itself…but it’s just how it is. Someday it will be why I take extra glee in a Cleveland championship.
It will be sweet. Way sweeter than when the Red Sox won it, because our organization will have worked way harder to claw our way to the top.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 29, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Likewise – well done, Jay.
I was thinking along those same lines in regards to not having enough to compete in 2010 and not worrying about the fanbase, since they were staying away in 2009 and likely would in 2010 even if Lee and Martinez were part of the 2010 team. As Jay mentioned, the fanbase, and the PR, can’t get much lower than it is right now, and the only thing that will bring them back is winning – if the Indians start winning, reaching the postseason, and contending for the World Series, it’s very likely that the fans will be back (pardon the Schwarzenegger pun).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
yeah, sums it up well … now, can someone please call my mom and explain it to her?
i think she’s trying to start a rally with bruce drennan.
"and if it stays fair, it's going to be ... A FAIR BALL!"
by manny trillo electric toothbrush on Jul 29, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions
wait a second
slightly off topic but. . .
crowe and carmona, but STILL no laporta?! W T F
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 8:58 PM EDT reply actions
I can’t make sense of this. Jay — or any one else — what’s the rationale underlying the indians’ hesitance in bringing LaPorta back up? I know that it’s the tendency of my fans — myself included to want to see prospects play in the bigs, often before they’re ready, but it seems like LaPorta has done everything he can at AAA. no?
EDIT: The Grady twist (needing an additional center fielder) does make a lot of sense
Yeah, but we’re still carrying a ton of pitchers. LaPorta should be playing everyday up here.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
LGT is a pretty cool place. This comment is not what I like to see here. I’m not trying to sound elitist or try to put someone who’s been a Tribe fan for umpteen years in their place, but what was this comment hoping to accomplish?
Steel Nick
Been a lot of that crap the last couple days. I’m gonna start making a hit list of idiots I want whacked.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure am glad my progression through the stages of grief was quick. I don’t want to be on a Canadian Whack List.
We use the beaver tail as weapon of choice.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
look, lads and ladies, there are always going to be a host
of ‘regular’ fans here … these types don’t trust the brass.
i don’t necessarily think they should be excised, but they judge
things the way they judge things. elitism is not education, right?
the one thing that bugs me about this site is the abrasion.
and i mean “the one thing”! this site is otherwise fantastic.
"and if it stays fair, it's going to be ... A FAIR BALL!"
by manny trillo electric toothbrush on Jul 30, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
It can be tough sometimes. To them they’re just a new guy looking for some conversation and we jump down their throats. To us they’re YET ANOTHER person without a proper perspective bringing up YET ANOTHER dead topic in YET ANOTHER annoying way.
Steel Nick
right
that’s kinda what i meant …
hey! batting average and RsBI !
"and if it stays fair, it's going to be ... A FAIR BALL!"
by manny trillo electric toothbrush on Jul 30, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
If you are call me a new guy, well thanks. but way do you think you have to jump down a persons throat. If it is a comment that you do not like just skip it, that is part of growing up.
Fan in Texas
First, I was not calling you a new guy. This was a general comment in response to “are we too harsh?” You don’t have to crucify yourself.
Second, don’t presume to tell me to grow up.
Steel Nick
was not tell you to grow up, just to skip what you do not like, but you do seem to think you can say what you want. I guess we all can.
Fan in Texas
Maybe I took this wrong
LGT is a pretty cool place. This comment is not what I like to see here. I’m not trying to sound elitist or try to put someone who’s been a Tribe fan for umpteen years in their place, but what was this comment hoping to accomplish?
Fan in Texas
I agree, lets move on, and I do need thicker skin some days, when you get old that happens.
Fan in Texas
i don’t like fat tire either. i’ve got this steady run of wildly popular, usually regional, beers that i just “don’t get” why people love them.
I don’t really get Fat Tire either. I mean, it’s fine, I’ll drink it, but there’s a lot out there I’d much rather have. Haven’t had as much Shiner Bock, but I’d say that ranks below Fat Tire.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, i always imagine that at 99% of bars in those places your chiocies are that local beer and the bud/miller, etc. selection. in that relative group, sure. i feel the same about honkers. at a place where there’s no choices, it’s a great choice. otherwise it’s decidedly not great.
Here in Tucson, you can get Fat Tire at nearly every bar, Shiner at many. When there’s not a good IPA or something, though, I’ll typically drink Sierra Nevada, which I think is better than either of those two (and even more widely available).
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
your hierarchy looks spot on to me. there has been more and more places here that have great beer selection. enough that those are the only places i go but not enough to rival the likes of the pacific northwest cities.
There are a couple of places here that have amazing selections. My favorite is a pizza place with…. over 50 taps that they continuously rotate. Nearly every time I go they have a new IPA for me to try. Their selection of Belgian beers, both on tap and in bottles, is also fantastic, though I haven’t been ordering those as much lately, in an effort to spend less.
Lately my standby IPA favorites (i.e. they are available at most stores with decent selections) are Indica by Lost Coast, and West Coast IPA by Green Flash. The Green Flash Imperial IPA is also yummy, with a distinct marijuana flavor. The Dogfish Head line is also a staple.
For “budget” “Belgian”, you can’t beat the value of Hennepin, by Ommegang. As good as many real Belgian beers, with the price of a domestic microbrew.
I may be moving to Chicago in a couple years… If I do, I’ll have to hit you up for bar suggestions.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
i have been into the ipa’s this summer as well. love surley furious.
keep me posted. most definitely. first round is on me.
See, this is the kind of passion I don’t get. Like I said, it’s an okay beer, but it’s certainly nothing worth getting worked up about.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m kidding, of course (mostly…you can get your helping, too, once i’m done with brick!). but i’m in a very fat tire place right now, really enjoying it. i also very much appreciate the new belgium approach to sustainable production, etc., and find myself wanting to support that. that’s a different discussion, though, obviously.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 30, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I know you don’t actually want to fight him, but I mean, even a vocal defense escapes me.
I get the whole wanting to support the brewery for political reasons though.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
GLBC is all green as well and their stuff is just so much better accross the board. NB in general is not my thing, though. just something about their flavors being “just off”
if you guys are into wheat beers, mothership wit is about the best i’ve had in a while. by the way, i don’t work for NB, so i’m not pushing it on you for personal gain…just dig their stuff.
being on the west coast, GLBC is hard to track down consistently.
by DontCallMeJoey on Jul 30, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Come on, it’s a little funny. Some dark humor is understandable. Painful day.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I had just made peace with this trade. I was still on shaky ground.
I really have come around in a huge way since the news broke.
Steel Nick
I meant what I said in the other thread: I refuse to get upset because we didn’t get the guys the TBJ’s wanted. I refuse even to think of that as a negative. For all I know, we got exactly what we asked for.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
My only small qualm is that I always kinda like having guys who are widely liked, only because they’re easier to re-trade if need be. We’re kinda stuck with these underrated guys.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but…If the name recognition guys panned out, we’d be keeping them, and if they didn’t, we wouldn’t get anything of note for them anyway. May as well make your pick and live with it.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah but you still could, in the way that Carrasco has struggled for a bit, but is still highly enough regarded to trade. When our guys start to suck a bit, it seems like no one ever wants them. This might be a totally unfounded observation.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
when I get sad, I stop being sad and be awesome instead. True story
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
/high five
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
The more I think about it, the more this explains why we suck on the field.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Quick, someone buy Wood a suit!
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Let’s ask DeRosa
….ohhhhhh yeah
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Ask Sherwin-Williams…why I’m such an idiot late at night.
by supermarioelia on Jul 30, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s weird because I’ve noticed our thought process is very similar, and it’s a total coincidence we have the same user name.
by NickFantana on Jul 29, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Same here, Nick.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and we think alike too….you should add a nick to your username.
by NickFantana on Jul 29, 2009 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Um, you’re Canadian. But, of course you can…
by NickFantana on Jul 29, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s quite Bizarre, except I think Steel Nick should add an Andrew to his real name
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
The Whiskey really put me in the right space to evaluate.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I meant to tell you how annoyed I am that I’ve only been in a position to drink for the last hour or so. Only one beer in. But dammit I’m raising a glass to fallen comrades and those to come.
Steel Nick
CC, Cliff, Casey, Ryan, All ya’ll that have served and left us in the Shapiro years, Godspeed to you all
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Here they talked of revolution.
Here it was they lit the flame.
Here they sang about `tomorrow’
And tomorrow never came.
by FredOx on Jul 29, 2009 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh wow. No wonder Cleveland is my favorite team, they are so compatible with my favorite musical.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Grady. Obviously.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
True. I guess. But then who is Grady?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh for sure. He’s my favorite male character. In fact in my head where Eponine and him don’t die Eponine realizes Marius is lame and goes for Enjoras instead. But he dies and I thought that was the point.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I listened to the Shapconference, and it barely helped. I wanted someone to at least ask if he was ever offered Wade Davis.
[deleted, profanity]
The LGT conference would be much more interesting and informative, but I’m not sure he’d walk away feeling any less frustrated.
Steel Nick
As mentioned above, I almost wish that Grady would shut it down for the year, just to make sure he’s healthy in 2010 – it also might be more beneficial to the team’s future prospects in regards to Crowe (Choo could play occasionally in CF if you want to run someone else out there from time to time) and LaPorta, instead of having Grady play at less than 100% in a season where we won’t contend.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
As always, thanks for the well-reasoned analysis.
I start with the premise that all along, we wanted that guy “who could take Lee’s place in the rotation” but we knew it wasn’t going to be Billingsley, Kershaw, or presumably Drabek or Happ. It would have been controlling six years of a guy on the cusp of the majors if more of a #50 to #75 prospect as opposed to top 25. Well that’s Carrasco. That’s fine.
I too don’t quite get Marson’s inclusion with the seem overload of catchers (pending another deal) and Donald just seems underwhelming to me. Knapp, it’s a departure from previous deals, it’s high risk/high reward, and I’m all for it.
Frankly I’m more jazzed to be talking about this stuff than I would have been if we held on to Lee and ended up with 90 losses anyway. Shapiro seems to do better with a $40MM to $55MM payroll anyway.
We’ve got three scenarios here, really.
1) Shoppach is traded and we keep Victor for next year (and maybe trade him over the offseason or at next year’s deadline).
2) Victor is traded and Shoppach starts next year, with Giminez as back up and waiting on Santana.
3) Victor is traded, Shoppach is non-tendered, and we go with Giminez/Torregas until Santana is ready.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I may be forgetting something, I’ve been hitting Whiskey pretty hard today.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
What you’re forgetting is that you’d have to be an idiot to non-tender Shoppach.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I’m under the impression that payroll is really, really, really bad. (I definitely could be wrong.)
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions
But that just means you accept less for him in a trade, not that you let him go for nothing.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 9:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is why I’m assuming we trade him …
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes. But Jay’s right — it would be crazy to just release him.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 29, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I think it might be Marson/Toregas who would do the bulk of the catching if Shoppach is non-tendered or traded, with Gimenez playing the role of super-utility player (1B, 3B, LF, RF, C).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
I really see the most likely scenario is that Victor is traded, some combination of LaPorta, Brown and Marte plays first base, Shoppach is the starting catcher (even if only for one year) and Munson backs up — all pending Santana’s further advancement.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
What were the biggest long term problems coming into this year? The rotation and the pen, really. And I think we’ve done a great job of upgrading both for the future this year.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 9:06 PM EDT reply actions
I’m really not that high on Buchholz.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I have my doubts about Buchholz as well, but if Victor is traded to Boston, it starts with Buchholz or there’s no deal. Then we add another piece or two from there, and if Donald and/or Marson is included, more pieces need to be added (maybe even Bard or Kelly – Boston says they won’t trade them in any deal, but we’ll see if they got all three of those players, since it would help to fortify Boston – yuck! – through 2010 at a minimum at C/1B/MIF).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Great job Jay.
After taking a long jog and watching the Shap interview, I have come off the ledge.
Maybe we Indians fans overvalued Lee a tad. The Phillies were not in a position where they HAD to get an elite pitcher like the Brewers were last year. Lee doesn’t have the track record that CC has nor the stuff. So comparing deals from year to year (like people always try to do with the Colon deal) is pretty naive.
I would like to think the Indians also picked the Phillies because we extensively scouted their system last year during the CC talks. So they were more familiar with the players in their system than say the Rays or anyone else. Just speculation on my part.
After watching/reading more about the secondary picks, I feel better about the trade. Shapiro handled himself pretty well and Brinda came across as a doofus, as usual.
Maybe we Indians fans overvalued Lee a tad.
Understatement of the past week. With each trade “rumor” or fan speculation that involved other teams’ golden boys “plus 2 top prospects”, it just seemed unrealistic to me in a time where more teams (or so some media tells me) are valuing the cheap, controllable talent moreso than in the past.
You are reading my signature.
Right. I think it was Jayson Stark who said the Phillies owner didn’t want to trade their top pitching prospects for Halladay because they were worried about future payrolls and wanted to keep the young, cheap guys.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 29, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Regarding your comments in the The Prospects section:
The players we received bore little or no resemblance to the prospects that the LGT community expected. Does this mean that the LGT prospect followers are that clueless? Are we to believe that Shapiro has metrics that are so foreign to the ones LGT uses that LGT is completely in the dark? This is a hard one to sell. Yet, we should continue to believe that Shapiro took these prospects, not out of necessity, but because he preferred them. This is the disconnect that I cannot resolve.
~ It's no fun throwing fastballs to guys who can't hit them. The real challenge is getting them out on stuff they can hit ~ Sam McDowell
I don’t think most fans, even smart and diehard fans, are all that knowledgable about other clubs’ prospects. And even people who obsess over minor leaguers generally know only what the pundits tell them to know. I also think it’s more about scouting than metrics when it comes to pitchers in particular.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I actually forget what the other teams are.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions
98% had to look up what exactly Wade Davis was doing, and 80% had to make sure who Wade Davis was.
Steel Nick
deep thought
Am I the only one who thinks that a fakejaylevin.com à la Fake Steve Jobs would be quite entertaining?
I love when you tell it like it is Jay. You and Brick made this bearable and now understandable.
After spending the evening with three-five year olds and this I have moved into acceptance stage.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
I’m not really into acceptance mode myself. Having trouble thinking of the new guys as Our Guys. But I tried to give it a good, sober look.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I think the three-five year olds had more to do with it. No offense.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I spent an hour or two with my two-month-old, but it was after writing this.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Two month olds don’t talk to you in a semi understandable language and then smile at you like you just made their life by responding to it.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t get me wrong I love babies but I think the 3-5 age group was better suited for my needs tonight.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I love baby smiles.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, there’s the rub, no? They may have been our guys, but emotional attachment doesn’t seem to equate to success.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions
So who do we think the suitors for Martinez are?
The Red Sox are obviously the first team on the list.
I know the Giants were mentioned, but they already got Garko and Sanchez….would they make a third trade?
The Rays were supposed to be interested, right? I wonder if they would get in just to keep the Red Sox away from him?
I suppose the Dodgers could get involved, if they felt they needed more offense, but I don’t see them paying up. I’m having a hard time identifying teams other than these.
Really? I don’t see it. Do they have enough non-Hughes non-Justin talent to trade with us?
by NickFantana on Jul 29, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Rosenthal and Morosi are saying pretty much only the Red Sox.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 9:43 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Why? I’m talking about my feelings right now.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Just for you:
Better?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Two raw thoughts I had that have fomented into actual ideas when reading this:
1. Shapiro is the mack daddy of peak value major leaguer-for-prospect trades. Even if you are his harshest talent development critic, that only seems to me that you’d WANT him to make this kind of move, since it’s clearly his strong suit.
2. I’m reminded once more of Billy Beane’s immortal “There’s no use in building an 83-win team.” Let’s be realistic. On a pure talent level, I’m not sure I see the pre-Cliff-trade 2010 Indians as anything more than a .500 ballclub. This was the right time to make this move, in so many ways.
3. One last time: If we stop thinking of this as a failed 6-year rebuild, and start thinking of it as a 10-year rebuild with one miraculous season, it all becomes a lot more reasonable. Maybe that’s fudging it, but when you compare the Indians to teams which have been at this much longer — KC, looking your way — it doesn’t seem all bad. Shapiro started with two assets of note: Colon and a teenaged Sabathia. Lookit now, mama.
4. We’re going to be the deepest system in baseball, and I don’t think it’s even going to be an argument. In two years, Twins fans will be bitching about OUR young pitching. And that’s no hollow victory. See: Tampa Bay.
5. Damn, I hate the Twins.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 9:49 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Love your points … except I hate to get to the point where we have to start pointing at the Royals or Pirates.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions
We don’t, except to say that in baseball years Shapiro’s done a lot with a little. This front office’s weaknesses are many, but at least its strengths are formidable.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 9:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Agree there … these trades are definitely his overall strength. Fingers crossed.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 29, 2009 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I count five but maybe that’s just me. They’re good thoughts, but there are three more than you promised me.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
The first two fomented. The latter three materialized.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Sometimes there’s some use to building an 83-win team.
by TheDanimal on Jul 29, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
HAVING an 83-win team can be useful. BUILDING one, less so.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I would have read Moneyball already had I believed that he is good at building playoff teams.
[deleted, profanity]
Your opinion of Beane professionally doesn’t much reflect on the accuracy of the concept, does it?
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions
1. I still don’t like this trade, rationally or otherwise.
2. I agree completely with the Billy Beane theory, but I still don’t want to trade Victor. This is a completely fanboy emotional reaction.
3. Stop thinking about this as a failed 6-year rebuild? That’s exactly what this is. The MLB salary structure is completely and unforgiveably out-of-whack, no question. However, two 90-win seasons out of 6 is a failure even within those terms, and it doesn’t appear as though 2010 or 2011 will correct things at all. Nothing in the near future has changed for the better. Just anotther several years of failed petitions directed toward Michael Weiner and Bud Selig. That’s worked out quite well since 1954.
4. Tyler, seriously. Don’t you have better things to do tonight? I don’t, but hell, I’m finished with this shiznit.
4.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 29, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s a floating four. I’m done speaking.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 29, 2009 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Show me the team that started where the Indians did and became what you hope the Indians would be in that time frame. And I’m not being rhetorical: Really, show it to me, and I’ll believe that it’s possible.
And no, not really. Three more hours of essays tomorrow, and it should be mostly business enterprise stuff, at which I’m just aces. And my head’s cooked after the MBE, so it’s all kind of irrelevant.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I mean, the Fair Housing Act? What is that sh**? I don’t even know if that’s ConLaw or Property.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 29, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what? You’re right.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 29, 2009 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t see it as a failed rebuild. I see that it produced a 93-win season and a 96-win season, and at least one season that was understandably decimated by injuries. This team accomplished a few things, though not as much as we’d like. I can’t call it a failure in black-and-white terms.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I’m too old to sympathize, and I’m a terrible mood. All I see is a trade that doesn’t make the 2010 Cleveland Indians a better team, or the 2009 Indians a more enjoyable team to watch.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 29, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
My grandmother is 92 and loved Cliff Lee. Chances are, in terms of both time frame and sentimentality, nobody lost more in this trade than she did.
Get her an mlb.tv account for the post-season. I’ll bet Cliff doesn’t get a case of the C.C.’s come October.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I see a trade that lowers our expectations for 2010, and maybe we (the fans) really needed that.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Maybe we (the Indians) really needed that.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to think it would be pretty close, depending on who we graduate to the majors this year. Another top-notch pitching prospect, and it will be pretty hard to argue with.
Is that your assessment with or without White?
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ll bet he’s having an interesting week. “Hey, I’m still, like, going to matter, right?”
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions
“Sure, Alex, you’ll be hard-throwing righty number three-five-two-one-oh. You’ll matter plenty.”
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
100% I think he still might be our best pitching prospect by this time next year…
by NickFantana on Jul 29, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I almost hope that’s not the case because of the people he’d vault over, but I certainly think he can be pitching in Cleveland next year.
Steel Nick
I don’t mean cause the others would get worse necessarily. I really like his mix of experience, attitude and stuff.
by NickFantana on Jul 29, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Presently? Maybe not. After the deadline? Seems awfully likely.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it’s really cool that Brad Pitt wrote a book about baseball.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 29, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
shapiro gets a little testy. . . stupid questions, admittedly, but geez mark, you put yourself in this position. you’re going to have to take a little flack.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
he put himself in a position for people to be stupid?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
By being born. As soon as you enter this world you have put yourself in a position for people to be stupid.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
no, he put himself in a position where he shouldn’t feel immune to criticism, even if the questions are “below” him or whatever. when you only field 2 winning teams in 7 years of being a general manager, you should expect to take a little flack. some of the questions were stupid, yes, but they were also reflective of what the casual fan is probably thinking right now. shap’s track record isn’t so great that the fanbase should just be expected to trust his reasoning.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Considering what any member of the fan base over 25 has seen, we should be thanking our lucky stars for Shapiro’s track record. How quickly we got spoiled.
That’s a .286 hitter. That’s Ryan Garko!
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 29, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
A stupid question is a stupid question. An irrational reaction is an irrational reaction. It’s not a matter of acting high and mighty, its a matter of people living in a mythical reality where Shapiro thinks of himself as god, the Dolans are secretly out to destroy the Indians franchise, and the front office is secretly a Yankee’s terrorist cell whose sole purpose is to undermine the Indians.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
just curious. . . did you listen to the presser?
the questions shapiro reacted most negatively towards were not phrased particularly well, and some of them were overly blunt/ignorant. however, they generally reflected valid concerns (two i can remember off the top of my head—the state of the rotation post-lee and the questions surrounding the 2009 performances of carrasco, donald, and knapp), towards which shapiro (in my opinion at least) was very dismissive. his attitude was very much “trust me, we look at and process more information than you ever could.” which might have been a pretty legitimate thing to say at one point in time, but i just don’t think he’s entitled to give that kind of answer at this point.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I listened to the entire presser. Honestly I came away with a completely different impression then you did. Shapiro didn’t seem overly vexed by the questions and none of the questions seemed particularly stupid. I got the impression that the reporters, for the most parts asked questions in the “well fans want to know” and Shapiro answered “the reality of being a mid market team is..”
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
The question that stood out was “why did you trade for a pitcher with a 5.XX ERA, blah blah blah, and a 2-7 pitcher?”
by cleveland teamer on Jul 29, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
But that’s a reasonable question. Even if you assume he’s got a good answer, you want to report his answer, not your assumption. I did this for a solid hour at least with Antonetti.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I’m not saying it was an unreasonable question, I just don’t think Shapiro was being condescending with his answer.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
No, though he did seem a bit impatient.
Once, just once, I would love for him to just say, “Oh, for the love of God, will you jackasses just go read LetsGoTribe instead of hassling me? You know they actually ban people for being stupid over there.”
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
We’d blow up.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
No, they just get a gently excoriating run-on.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
And his response, to paraphrase was “well I could easily point out that they were ranked 2,4, and 10 in their system according to BA.. Or I could point out that Carrasco is a 22 year old who throws 95. We look at a lot of stats not just ERA”
That’s not snooty at all. His point was that one stat doesn’t define a player, especially when you’re talking about prospects.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
his attitude was very much "trust me, we look at and process more information than you ever could." which might have been a pretty legitimate thing to say at one point in time, but i just don’t think he’s entitled to give that kind of answer at this point.
This is ridiculous. Even the worse GM does due diligence by exploring every possible trade scenario. So yes, I do trust that the dozens of people in the front office who work to the waking hours are looking at every trade possible. You might disagree with their decisions, which is perfectly fair, but I doubt they’re making trades in order to make it to their 4pm tee time.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Even the worse GM does due diligence by exploring every possible trade scenario
I can’t assume this.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Based on?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Not being snippy I;m just curious
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
that’s completely beside the point
i’m not doubting that his team does their due diligence. i know that our FO is very much dedicated to gathering and quantifying everything possible. that’s great.
i’m saying that a reasonable fan could, at this point, have severe doubts about shapiro & co’s decisionmaking process.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You just took your complaint from Shapiro was snippy in his press conference back to the point you always want to get to, which is that everyone should agree with you that Shapiro needs to be questioned
Exactly
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
no. see if you can follow me here.
i felt like shapiro was overly dismissive of certain questions at the presser. my impression was that his attitude was more or less “trust us, we know what we’re doing.” you can feel free to disagree with me if you’d like—it was more of a subjective impression based on the tone of the questioning and the wording of his answers.
i felt that this was inappropriate, because at this point in time, shapiro’s track record isn’t really strong enough to justify an attitude of “trust us, we know what we’re doing.” a reasonable fan could have serious doubts about this front office’s decisionmaking process because of a serious lack of positive results that have come from said decisionmaking process.
i don’t understand how this is trying to tell everyone to agree with me, or trying to convince everyone that shapiro SHOULD be questioned. that’s kind of a dickish mischaracterization of what i’m actually saying.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 29, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if you’re impression is right. What’s wrong with saying “trust us, but feel free to disagree”?
I also think your characterization is inaccurate. Shap didn’t just say “trust us” He said we like X, Y, and Z about this deal.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
that’s fine. you don’t have to agree with my characterization. i said that it was subjective—of course he didn’t actually say “trust us,” but i felt like that was the message. i’m not going to try to convince you that my impression was right and yours was wrong.
and saying “trust us” at all at this point would be a joke. the current FO’s track record does very little to inspire trust. i’m not saying that the trade was bad, or that going forward shapiro might be a much better GM, having learned from past mistakes. but no, the credibility just isn’t there for me.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 30, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay, guys, seriously, shut up now. It happened, it’s over.
Now join us downthread and post a goofy avatar.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
cripes, i agree. i don’t know why WD and i end up butting heads over every stupid little innocuous comment.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Jul 30, 2009 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions
At this point in time, shapiro’s track record isn’t really strong enough to justify an attitude of "trust us, we know what we’re doing." a reasonable fan could have serious doubts about this front office’s decisionmaking process,
Yes!
dude…let it go
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 5:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Anyone remember the Sabathia conference? Mark “Munch” Bishop, with the “A fan just snuck into this conference, and he wants to know…”
I wish I could have seen what kind of face Shapiro wanted to make.
Steel Nick
I came back from out of town to this news. I absolutely understand the trade, and see that it’s likely a good one. But, I can’t help regretting it too.
One of the few things that made Indians baseball fun this year and last was watching Cliff Lee pitch. I can’t think of a more aggressive, effective pitcher than Cliff was over the past year and a half. Making an astute trade doesn’t eliminate the loss we experience when an unusually good player goes away.
I’ll say the same thing about Victor, if they trade him. I understand, but I hate the fact that he would be traded. He’s one of the most intelligent, clever, capable hitters I’ve seen in many years of watching baseball.
Good players come and go, and fans have to hope that teams know how to manage the traffic. But, fans can’t help but feel a little sad to see really good players leave. There’s nothing wrong with that.
oh, yeah. i totally, mentally, get why this trade was made. (and i don’t know enough about scouting younger players to really have an opinion on who we got back, but i understand the impetus to make the trade.) i’m just having an emotional roller-coaster of a week otherwise, and really wish i wasn’t having such a week right before the trade deadline.
Shapiro on Marson:
“We’re really impressed with his receiving, game-calling and leadership skills,” Shapiro said. “Combined with his bat, he could be at least an average everyday Major League catcher.”
Really? “Could be… average”? I know others have noted this, but this is the part I just don’t understand. Even if Victor is traded, they still have Shoppach to catch until Santana is ready, with two capable back-ups. Why did they want this guy? There was no pitcher of comparable value worth negotiating for?
Pitchers and catchers are apples and oranges
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if Victor is traded, they still have Shoppach
Do they?
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah I don’t know if they do. At this point I’m actually kind of excited about what may happen. it’s the anticipation.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m screwing with the tense, but really, do we have evidence that Shoppach’s sticking out the season, or the off-season?
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah… you are suggesting that both Martinez and Shoppach will be traded before next season. Could be, though I’d guess they wouldn’t want to run out two rookies to catch. Maybe.
I don’t mean to suggest that Shoppach is being, well, shopped, and I agree that I’d like him to stick around if we’re trading Victor, but that doesn’t mean he couldn’t be bought for a fair price.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Lou Marson is Canadian?
This trade gets an A+, haters be damned.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 10:50 PM EDT reply actions
He may, at some point in his life, have consumed a Molson.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m Canadian too?
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Your mother
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m a Labatt’s man myself.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 29, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Labatt founded right here in my hometown.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
You live in London?
~ It's no fun throwing fastballs to guys who can't hit them. The real challenge is getting them out on stuff they can hit ~ Sam McDowell
Yuppers. I thought by now my entire biography would’ve been piece together on here.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I hate the Knights. Go Otts!
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jul 29, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah everyone outside of this city hates the Knights. We’re just that good.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m in Cleveland, but I chat with a gal in a Yahoo gin lobby who lives in London. She has told me enough about London and her family to know that the Labatt business started there.
~ It's no fun throwing fastballs to guys who can't hit them. The real challenge is getting them out on stuff they can hit ~ Sam McDowell
I don’t know what offseason acquisition may be made possible by the money savings the club will achieve this week. I do know that we have some work to do in locking up at least a couple of young guys, starting with Asdrubal Cabrera and Shin-Soo Choo.
Crap you’re right. Here I am thinking, by God, if by some miracle we have a .500 club in late June of 2010 we might use some payroll flexibility to make a push, or add the pieces we need in the offseason before 2011.
But any flexibility needs to be directed at these guys, right? Considering how these deals look there should still be plenty of leftover money for the first years of the new contracts.
Steel Nick
When I say things no one listens. When Shapiro says things…well I guess most people still don’t listen
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Did you allude to this somewhere? These threads are much harder to absorb when you start with 100+ comments and try to catch up.
Steel Nick
Opening up payroll room has always been one of the top reasons to trade Lee and Victor. Either to extend players, sign free agents, or cut payroll. I usually emphasized the latter two though which is why you probably missed it.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Would it make any sense (from the Indians perspective or their trading partner’s perspective) to package Martinez and Hafner together in a trade?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exOxUAntx8I&feature=channel_page
by The Cactus Leaguer on Jul 29, 2009 10:57 PM EDT reply actions
Not on any level
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions
SBN must friggin love these trades eh…traffic here has been nuts.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 10:59 PM EDT reply actions
We’ll, he’s right, dah trerfic ’ere haas been noots.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This reminds of HIMYM. The one where Robin goes to the Minnesota bar.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions
You know what would help with this gloomy trading season? Let’s all go to the mall. Today.
Steel Nick
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:46 PM EDT up reply actions
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
do it
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
This reminds of HIMYM. The one where Robin goes to the Minnesota bar.
I like you a little bit better
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I told I watch and love it. I just haven’t seen all the seasons yet.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
And until you do you’ll always be a disappointment in my eyes. Like the 2009 Indians.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough I guess. I’m going to start working on that when I go back to school next week.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha I’m not sure how this is supposed to sound.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Kelly Shoppach is about to become the new Josh Bard — a perfectly good young catcher who is keeping the spot warm for a sensational prospect. We now have three guys who can back up Shoppach and provide depth. This brutal week is about to get tougher.
Screw work, I think I’m gonna just stay in bed the next two days. The end of this week is going to suck massive nose.
--
Force quit and move to trash.
Apparently Jason Donald went to, wait for it….THE UNIVERSITY OF ARIZONA
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:01 PM EDT reply actions
I think KU can be dissed all day long.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
you make a valid point
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m a Mizzou fan too.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Clemson’s my number 1 but I KU hate has been engrained in me since a young age.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
- I
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions
He wears the high socks so there’s a plus.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I hear his grammar is excellent
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Doubtful. New Jersey.
Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
If you watched How I Met Your Mother that joke would have been even funnier. Don’t you ever get tired of being dead inside?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The grammar joke?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
The New Jersey aspect
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Pretty sure I’ve seen that one. I watch it now, I just haven’t seen every episode.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Indians 2010 Annual: Who the hell are these guys?
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 11:22 PM EDT reply actions
I solemnly swear I will not be nicknaming ANY of these guys. Not a soul.
by fleerdon on Jul 29, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s quite the cover jinx. You don’t want to be the team featured on the cover of the Annual.
by supermarioelia on Jul 29, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Or the player if I’m to believe the picture that flashes up on my screen all the time.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, so maybe LGT should put together a Twins Annual for 2010….
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 3:14 AM EDT up reply actions
You take the Twins, I’ll take the Tigers, Jay can have the White Sox. We don’t need to jinx the Royals.
[deleted, profanity]
z
Scott Elbert was scratched rom his AAA start tonight for non injury related reasons
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:35 PM EDT reply actions
Did get more for CC than we did for Lee and Ben?
Matt LaPorta (Yes) Michael Brantley (could be) Zach Jackson (AAA filler) Rob Bryson (???)
Fan in Texas
I guess I did not make this very clear
Carrasco vs Laporta I take Laporta
Marson vs Brantley not sure
Donald vs Jackson take Donald
Knapp vs Bryon big arms but health a ?
Fan in Texas
All three of the AAA players we aquired were in BA’s top 100 prospects before the season began
Carrasco -52nd
Marson 66th
Donald 69th
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you mean did we and yes, we did. So what? CC is, unquestionably, the better talent. He’s had a better career and is younger. Lee is a league average pitcher who is riding a one and a half year hot streak that has him at the peak of his value. Ben is a bit piece, completely replaceable nobody.
Lee is a league average pitcher who is riding a one and a half year hot streak… ?! OK, for 1.5 years to be considered a ‘streak’ in the face of all other evidence, you’d need a sample size of 30 yrs+. Basically, that 1.5 years is a large enough sample, particularly when contrasted with the rest of Cliff’s career, that you can consider it a reasonable indicator of what is to come – to write it off as “a hot streak” is stretching it.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jul 29, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
This, more or less. Lee is not league average. He’s a guy who was expected to be this good when we acquired him. He had some bumps in the road, but he is what he is.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I think that his track record argues that he is league average and has a one and a half year torrid run going. 2004: 80, 2005: 111, 2006: 103, 2007, 73. Those are the ERA+ of a mediocre pitcher. I don’t really want to get into an argument about this, I just think that Lee is not quite the god he is sometimes made out to be.
Don’t get me wrong, right now he is great, but his career is pretty average.
But what about FIP?
Nazi
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
There are two hypotheses – 1) his true talent level is that of a league average pitcher and the last 1.5 years is a random fluctuation, a symptom of volatility within the distribution making him look better than he is, but his true talent level is that indicated by first-order results from prior to 2008, and 2) his true talent level is that indicated by his last 1.5 years, or close to it. Given that baseball players generally peak at ages 25-30 (rarely before 25, even more rarely after 30) and that the true talent level will increase until that peak, it seems much more likely to me that the second hypothesis is true. You’re arguing that the results compiled by the 25-28 year-old Cliff Lee 2.5-5.5 years ago are more indicative of his true talent level than those of the 29-30 year-old Cliff Lee of 1.5-0 years ago. Seems to me that your argument requires a greater weight of evidence than mine.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think Cliff is a god, but he’s a long way better than league average.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jul 30, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
According to the transactions at mlb.com, Marson has been assigned to the big league club as of 7/30. Perhaps a follow-up deal involving Martinez or Shoppach is already in place.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jul 29, 2009 11:38 PM EDT reply actions
That would be too soon for me to handle.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
So I don’t know if anyone heard, but Toxicadam (may I call you Adam?) and I made a bet. If either Cliff or Victor were traded before this deadline, I get to assign him a new avatar. Well then.
I need people to weigh in on this.
1. 
2. 
3. 
4. 
5. 
I believe this should run up to Opening Day 2010.
Steel Nick
2 or 3 would be the hardest to shrug off as “ironic”.
5 is just…. no.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 3:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you can do better
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I like the Robin Sparkles pic above but that might not be too humiliating…I mean it is Adam
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 29, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Holy Lord what is going on??
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I can’t see the fourth one. Therefore I cannot make an informed decision. But I like the Jeter and Pete Wentz ones.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Mr. Ashlee Simpson.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Jessica’s little sister. Less successful music career.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:49 PM EDT up reply actions
But she may be more stable. At least it’s beginning to look that way.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course she is but the question is who’s worse?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I can’t really compare inherent crazy when their dad is still running around trying to control their lives and being creepy. A lot of the weird stuff they do is, like, directly attributable to Joe Simpson being a terrible dad.
But I’m not really sure. Probably Ashlee, but that might just be because I know more about her.
I think Jessica has lost it after breaking up with Nick. I feel bad for her but sometimes she does it to herself.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Possibly. It’s hard to tell. It could also be attributable to the pop scene she was a part of pretty much ceasing to be, you know? I can’t believe we’re having this conversation.
I can’t either. I keep typing my opinions about which Simpson is more messed up and I am amazed at myself.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Ah, I honestly had never heard of her. Pretty sure I have never heard a song by her. Also wasn’t aware Jessica had a successful music career
Tell’s you how successful Ashlee’s was.
Here.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Random apostrophe. I need sleep.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I love this song for the hand motions. My swim team would listen to it and do the motions while we kicked with kick boards.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
5. Yes. I’m drunk enough to like it.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 29, 2009 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, what is 4? It’s driving me insane.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s Corey Haim looking like a hillbilly douche. Curly mullet, sleeveless shirt, looks like he’s on meth, and the shirt says “Nice jugs.”
Steel Nick
If I could see that that may be my vote.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I salute you. This is magnificent.
by InfiniteMonkeyTypists on Jul 29, 2009 11:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Suggestions must be submitted in picture form.
Think of it as a release for any bad feelings about the trade or the state of the team.
Steel Nick
Is he making a “loser” symbol? Classic. I can feel the ridicule with this one. This is my vote.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s because he is one.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 29, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m sorry, but Zima sums up fair weather Tribe fans in oh so many ways (think Jacobs Field attendance)….the hot ticket in the 90’s you don’t really know where it has gone. You swore by it 100% at every part and was it’s champion. But now that it isn’t popular you dump on it every chance you get.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I was gonna say, that’s crossing the line a little bit. That’s not funny. Jay, you need to sit the next couple picture recommendations out.
this could be the douchiest pic…though Clak Aiken popping up above is really good too.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
gotta love the popped collar upper a collared shirt….who the f comes up with this stuff?
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
The most annoying thing to me isn’t even the popped collar or pink shirt.. what in the name of everything good is he doing with that hat. If it were anymore crooked, it wouldn’t stay on his head.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
I believe 2 and 5 would both violate the Eighth Amendment’s guarantee against cruel and unusual punishment.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I know you are leaving. I have had time to prepare. I know when I see you it will be for the last time. I have even accepted it, a little bit.
But I am still going to cry myself to sleep when you leave.
DAVID TENNANT IS A GREAT DOCTOR YOU WILL NOT HATE ON HIM
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 30, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, you’re saying good things.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 30, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions
SI_JonHeyman not to jinx him, but casey blake is a winning player. #dodgers
We lost that trade too!
Steel Nick
I just realized what’s wrong with the logic here.
“Casey Blake is a winning player. He’s never won before, but that’s because he’s the type of winning player that makes a good, winning team win it all. He won’t improve a bad team, but if your team is already really good and likely to win, he will make it seem like it’s because of him.”
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nah, you need a R.P. candid, something good and coked-out.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 12:11 AM EDT up reply actions
Really. This is a family site. That’s gross.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, you gotta go Y-flap, or what’s the point.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
No, people would think I was kidding.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are girls present, let’s not discuss your underwear choices boys. Pretty close to the line.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re really committed to this “I’m a 19-year-old girl” thing, aren’t you?
by Joel D on Jul 30, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Oh I know. It is interesting how they have so many different choices and it is a topic of discussion. They can keep talking about it if they want. Just thought they may want to be reminded before they say more than they want.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions
But the “say more than they want” part of the conversation is the best part. That’s when you show up and snicker.
Oh true. Should have kept quiet. Darn. Sorry I ruined the fun.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Say more than I want? Hell, I’ll send you the brand, style, and size. I’ve got a birthday coming up.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Wow. You’re easy to please.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
It is actually.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah it should.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess I just don’t have the body type for boxers. The waistband is forever seeking out my armpits.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, you show me yours, I’ll show you mine.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 12:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Your wish is my command:
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I have one. it’s good I think. I’m waiting for it to load.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Kind of small. But it mentions Jake and implies Edward is better. Just saying.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
This is what a picture URL looks like:
http://i27.tinypic.com/2a4rfr8.jpg
When you are formatting it here, after .jpg there is a "/>. Between the " and the / write (sans quotes) “width=desired size” where desired size is any random number, usually between 100 and 300. Make sure to preview.
This
Becomes
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would have never figured out how to do that. Thanks.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Too awesome for this topic, but I’m compelled to post:
by AngG on Jul 30, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I was just scrolling through the pictures and for the first time I noticed the Velocirpator.
Steel Nick
Whoa where did that come from?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 12:12 AM EDT reply actions
But I don’t think we want to make Adam have an avatar that makes us all hate him. This is about ridicule here.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Melt is consistently the favorite destination of my friends that come to visit from outside Cleveland.
Yeah, I work at Hopkins and he came through talking about it
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Dane Cook in full on douche mode really does scream NSFW
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 12:19 AM EDT reply actions
this is probably the point that I out myself as a michigan student/converted fan. HAIL TO THE VICTORS
by supersizeme on Jul 30, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Okay, don’t be an a-hole about it. You announced it proudly, now be quiet. You’re in enemy territory.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Appalachian State. I’m a proud 1996 alum.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
And I know that you know that Adam. This is more for the McDonald’s kid up the thread.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I think I mentioned previously that I was with the sister, mother and father of an App St. student, in Ann Arbor, for that game. The sister (one of my housemates that year) had to escort the dad out of the stadium and back to my house during half-time because she thought he was going to get in trouble. Her brother, the App St. student, went on something like a 72-hour bender following the game. They were great fun.
So nick which one’s in the lead right now? I’m partial to the Twilight ones.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Well we haven’t voted on any new submissions but Pete Wenz is leading the originals. I like the Twilight ones too. I’m going to give this plenty of time. Maybe narrow these down and make a Fanpost.
Steel Nick
Good idea.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Anything Twilight has to win, it is just to embarrassing
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
i’m actually looking forward to the rest of this season.
the only people who share this feeling are likely commenting here.
but i am … i’m watching the groundswell, ya dig
"and if it stays fair, it's going to be ... A FAIR BALL!"
by manny trillo electric toothbrush on Jul 30, 2009 12:25 AM EDT reply actions
I’ve been thinking about posting my feelings on the Tribe and this trade for the last hour since I was at work when the trade hit the fan…but I dare not rail this derailed thread.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah, sorry, i have no sense of humor … or image-searching skills
"and if it stays fair, it's going to be ... A FAIR BALL!"
by manny trillo electric toothbrush on Jul 30, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know who these people are. Fail. (for me).
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Fail X 2. I still don’t know. Football is really far down on the list for me.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
She looks like Lo from the Hills in this picture.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh I get it, that’s Tony Romo. Really? Hmm, that’s not what I would’ve thought he looked like. That doesn’t really look like Jessica Simpson though.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
This isn’t a real suggestion unless you want it to be but:
WTF?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
He’s so unattractive and the chinstrap isn’t helping. Neither is the excessive hair gel. Or headband. Or earrings.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I got carried away. It just disgusts me.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s exhausting.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Then you’re forgiven for breaking up the Beuhrle perfecto the other day.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Jay, sorry if this is addressed above or some other thread, but I have a question for you. Do you feel that the return they received today is significantly better than what they could receive a year from now? Of course, there are risks involved (injury, ineffectiveness) in keeping Lee for 2010, and I suppose it’s an advantage to get the prospects into the organization a year earlier if you can. I thought it would’ve been a good question for Shapiro and wonder what your thoughts on this are.
I’m not really down on the deal, but just saddened due to a) what has happened this year to cause this deal, and b) what it likely means for 2010.
Great work on the potential new avitars for Nick, everyone. Nice to smile so much on a depressing day.
The avatar discussion had me rolling. Some awful suggestions here. I won’t hint which one would pain me the most.
I’m watching 2007 Playoff highlights
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Jul 30, 2009 1:38 AM EDT reply actions
I’m not that low just yet. Give me a day or so. And a fresh fifth of scotch.
--
Force quit and move to trash.
Kind of off topic, but in the off season could STO maybe show actual classic games? I love that their idea of classic games or those from the previous season. Drop me a random game from like 1991 (how about Chris James’ 9 RBI performance). Or Manny’s debut in 1994 (to show the kids what steroids can do to body…and mind).
Heh. I’m into this idea almost as much for watching the incredibly cheesy old production values (not to mention skinny players in Burger King fry cook outfits with feathered hair/afros barely tucked under their caps) as the actual games themselves. :)
As for STO, I wonder if MLB has any say in what games they can or cannot show. Seeing as how they hold onto this stuff with an iron fist (going by the standard post-game legal spiel, we’re not even supposed to talk about any of these games without MLB’s express written consent), I wouldn’t be surprised if this were the case.
--
Force quit and move to trash.
MLB Network is awesome for that. I watched the 1978 All Star game the other day. The only Tribe game on their schedule is in late August, the June 8, 2000 game against Boston. Colon vs. Pedro, which we lost 3-0. They’re doing a bunch of the huge strikeout games in August, too. Clemens, Wood, Clemens again, Guidry, Big Unit.
Thanks for this analysis, Jay. For the clearly uninformed but die-hard, emotional Tribe fan (like me) it really helps me understand what’s truly at play here. While I rarely comment, I read this blog almost every day because I appreciate the insights that, for whatever reason, don’t ever appear in the newspaper. It seems the papers are only interested in publicizing rantings of angry fans (like I did yesterday) without providing any decent information to consider what’s really going on to improve this team for the longer term. I’ll step back, read and learn.
After reflection and serious informing from some very good pieces by Ryan, Jay and Lastoria…
The only thing that makes sense is that they didn’t like the roster construction and that more moves are coming. Our FO has had sh_tty drafts and signed sh_tty free agents but they are very, very good at evaluating other people’s farm systems. They may therefore have placed a higher value on these prospects than the dope-noise we are hearing on the airwaves right now. My biggest other criticism has been that they, especially the Atomic Wedgie, fall in love with very average players like Blake, Carroll, Garko & Francisco. I therefore like that they have made a critical, and perhaps introspective analysis, and decided that serious re-tooling was needed. You can’t say that it isn’t ballsy.
Stuart Dean
Another quick reason to link to the original and not MLBTraderumors:
MLBTR has a link saying Sean McAdam reports that the Indians already rejected a one-for-one offer of Victor for Buchholz earlier this week. The actualy McAdam article says it was the Sox who rejected the offer.
We’ve actually heard a lot of this. What everyone seems to know is that Victor for Buchholz was turned down. What no one seems really positive of is who rejected it. Either way I would guess the two teams are still trying to find a fit.
Steel Nick
oh, and this needing to cut payroll poop (that is def “out there” whether Jay believes it’s fact or not) is killing our leverage.
[deleted, profanity]
A thorough and reasoned analysis. I know this is late in the discussion, and apologize if mentioned before, but after reading the analysis, I pulled out the 2008 Baseball America Top Prospects Guide and took a look at the players we got who were listed in that edition.
As mentioned somewhere else, Carrasco was the number one prospect in the Phillie’s system in 08, and thus has the full page analysis as opposed to the paragraph dedicated to #2 thru 30. In it, it is mentioned several times, and for several levels, that there is a feeling he was ‘rushed’ by the organization, inferring this led to some of the periodic struggles he’s gone thru. Given that he’s 22, this gives hope that there is a valid reason for the bad Carrasco, and that if handled correctly, we may actually have something here. Now, the question of whether or not the organization is capable of ‘handling’ him correctly is a discussion, or rant, for another time.
Interestingly, also in the 2008 edition the number one for the Tribe is…Adam Miller. Can’t help but wonder if the demise of Miller has formed Shapiro’s current philosophy, which seems to reflect Bill Jame’s view that there is no such thing as a pitching prospect, so stockpiling good arms is necessary to yield viable pitchers at the big league level. I also wonder if the Miller experience has influenced Shapiro in now seeking hard throwers, since the organization seems drawn to finesse pitchers. Looking at the minor league lines of the pitchers we’re forced to count on, Laffey, Huff, Sowers, etc., the K/IP ratios are modest at best, and Miller represented the best of only a few power arms in the system. The thread throughout the pitchers acquired in the past week is they do throw hard. This again gets back to one of Jame’s beliefs (I think); you can teach a guy to throw a curve, but you can’t teach him to throw 99 mph.
Bottom line, I think most of us were already disgusted with the season, and had nothing to really look forward to. At least now, there’s a reason to pull out this year’s Baseball Prospectus or the Top Prospects Guide and read up on new players, and imagine what the upside would be for each if things work out.
Chitown Fan
Good post. I will correct the record on TINSTAAPP — it was coined by Gary Huckabay, founder of Baseball Prospectus.
Huckabay would say, by the way, that it’s a mistake to leave Carrasco in the minors this long; that once a guy has shown big-league talent, he should be brought to the majors as soon as possible, because his arm is a ticking timebomb.
I don’t think Adam MIller has taught Shapiro anything he didn’t already know from his first 17 years with the organization. I think they’ve been coveting power arms for years, but they happen to have had some nice success with a few finesse guys. We’ve been through a lot of power arms over this decade … Jason Davis, Fernando Cabrera, Ricardo Rodriguez, Tom Mastny …
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Too soon?
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions
Of all of the non-Tribe uniforms to see him in, I think this is one of the least objectionable. I miss him, of course, but he looks good in a Phils cap.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions
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