Transactions: Cliff Lee, Ben Francisco Traded
by Ryan on Jul 29, 2009 11:54 PM EDT
in Transactions
570 comments
Traded LHP Cliff Lee and OF Ben Francisco to the Philadelphia Phillies for RHP Jason Knapp (A-), RHP Carlos Carrasco (AAA), C Lou Marson (AAA), and IF Jason Donald (AAA)
In baseball, teams generally turn over gradually through attrition, free agency, and trade, so there's often no clear line of demarcation between eras of a franchise, but this week seems as definitive a boundary as the 2002 Bartolo Colon trade was. In a neat bit of coincidence, Cliff Lee was involved in both the beginning and end of that era. In 2002, Cliff was one of the three then unknown prospects received for who was then one of the best pitchers in baseball. It's taken eight years and a few detours, but now Cliff Lee is one of the elite pitchers in the game, and taking his place are four unknowns that will hopefully be part of the next good Indians team.
In both cases, the Indians did not have to make the trade when they did. Both Colon and Lee were under the club's control for one more season. The comparison does end there. Colon was one of the few bright spots in what was otherwise a sickly roster and barren minor-league system. Bartolo's departure was the first step in a major organizational turnover. The Indians of today have glaring problems, but much better young talent than at the beginning of the last cycle. The roster will not have to be gutted, but the team as is isn't good enough to win in 2010 without external additions, and according to Mark Shapiro at today's press conference, all that ownership was willing to promise was payroll stasis. Kerry Wood was supposed to be the big splash that put the Indians back into contention, but even though he's largely lived up to advance billing, the rest of the pitching staff, whether due to injury or just plain shoddy player evaluation and development, cratered the season.
Now, with the team poised for a significant financial loss and free agency additions out of the question, a tough decision had to be made: keep the core of the team together for one more season and hope for the best, or take a step back and try to regroup a couple years from now? Choosing to stick it out would mean better attendance, and a decent shot at contention, but also that the subsequent rebuilding would be more difficult and painful to execute. Mark Shapiro chose to regroup, and trading Cliff Lee was the first part of that process. In all probability there will be at least one more core player to go, and one would expect a coaching shakeup to happen at season's close. Shapiro might not have been wholly responsible for the 2002 team, but this time he's going to have to clean up his own, slightly smaller, mess.
It follows that if the Indians were going to deal pieces of the core, the best time to do so would be right away. The opportunity would still be there to deal Lee (and Martinez) at the end of this season, but the air of urgency wouldn't be there for their trading partners, and the two trading chips would be less valuable. And yes, I'm assuming Victor Martinez will be traded in next day-and-a-half, for logic would dictate that if you are committed to not competing in 2010, then a player whose contract only runs through 2010 must be traded.
My problem with this trade comes with the execution. The best prospect in the deal is Jason Knapp, an 18-year-old pitcher with great upside and peripherals but at best is 2-to-3 years from reaching the majors. Knapp might be the exclamation point to the building of the next good Indians team, but he won't be its foundation. Carlos Carrasco should contribute right away, but needs to refine his slider. The position players (C Lou Marson and IF Jason Donald), while close to the majors, don't fill obvious holes. Even if you assume Victor Martinez is gone, the Indians still have Kelly Shoppach to bridge the gap between Martinez and Carlos Santana. Marson looks like Kelly Shoppach's evil twin (good on-base skills, but little power), and could complement Shoppach as his backup, but it would make more sense to spin him off to another team who sees in him a potential starter. Jason Donald, if you look at his entire minor-league track record, could supplant or share time with Luis Valbuena at second base in a year or so, but again, the need wasn't pressing. Among the three near-MLB prospects, none of them appear to me as a future core player.
On an emotional level, seeing Cliff dealt is extremely difficult. This was a guy who was at times in his career was overrated, ridiculed, or even forgotten about, and now that he's blossomed into one of baseball's best pitchers, he's moving on. Greatness in an Indians uniform is rarely allowed to linger, and so it is with Cliff Lee.
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Lotta hubbub for a losing pitcher.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No kidding. Losing Garko hurt more.
by junkballer on Jul 30, 2009 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our greatest hitter and an RBI machine….Clevelander’s seriously love mediocre white guys.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, look at Drew Carey.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Drew Carey the character, maybe. Drew Carey the comedian, no.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You saying we don’t love him, he’s not mediocre, or he’s not white?
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand it’s not the crux of this post, but I strongly disagree with this:
Kerry Wood was supposed to be the big splash that put the Indians back into contention, but even though he’s largely lived up to advance billing…
by JulioBernazard on Jul 30, 2009 12:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Have to agree. Wood has been worth exactly 0.0 WAR as of today – a perfectly replacement-level pitcher. His strikeout rate is still elite, but his HR9 and BB9 rates have taken huge steps backwards.
Webmaster of Driveline Mechanics
http://www.drivelinemechanics.com - An Unconventional Look at Scouting
by Kyle Boddy on Jul 30, 2009 12:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think we all are fully aware of your opinion of Wood. Many of us disagree, especially (a) considering how little he’s been used and (b) he’s been a lot better lately.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 7:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So they’re overpaying for him. From an execution standpoint (saving games), he’s pretty much done that.
by Ryan on Jul 30, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s just say this didn’t play out like I thought it would. For one thing I expected Lee to get traded right before the deadline. Figured Shap would play one contender against another. Looks like it didn’t go done like that. An a catcher? I just don’t get that. Unless the FO figures that what we’ve got now is not what it’s cracked up to be.
And yeah Grimace, Lee’s white – real white. And I think he’s a hellava baseball player. This inverse racist crap is getting old. Most fans – the vast, vast majority – could give a damn less what the player’s race is. Unlike the 50’s and even the 60’s race is hardly considered by any of the participants, be it FO, players, managers, and yes even fans. Sports – specifically baseball, but sports in general – is at the forefront of racial/ethnic equality. You can either play or you can’t. Lee can play – Blake can play – Garko can play. You’ll know when they can’t, cuz they’ll get cut.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 30, 2009 12:47 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Lee was never meant to be the mediocre white guy referenced….because he is far from it. Mediocre = of moderate or low quality. Is Ryan Garko really as good as most fans make him out to be? God no. Is his career going to be long and prodigious? Probably not. The same can be said about Blake and the countless others that Tribe fans have rallied behind not because of their playing ability but because they seem like guys they’d want to have a beer with. The likes of Bill Selby, Lou Merloni, Sal Fasano, Ben Broussard, and Mark DeRosa. It’s like Jets fans and Wayne Chrebet.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’ll know when they can’t, cuz they’ll get cut.
Or traded to the NL West.
by junkballer on Jul 30, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ya know what? I wouldn’t be at all suprised if the WS Champ comes outta the NL West.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 30, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither would I….pitching wins. San Fran has two guys that are flat out dominant with Zito pitching well and a good bullpen and LA has a solid rotation with a monstrous offense. Even Colorado could make some noise.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m with you, Chuck — fans of any AL Central team need to shuddup about the NL West.
by JulioBernazard on Jul 30, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why? When is the last time a team from the NL West won the World Series?
by Roger Dorn on Jul 30, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t disagree with you, but this is a very poor measure.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I have provided other reasons in the past that seem to be cast aside. The NL West is bad. The Dodgers are the first team in awhile that could actually be considered good in either league
by Roger Dorn on Jul 30, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This wouldn’t be surprising considering they have a great chance of putting two teams in and it’s a free-for-all from that point.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This could go on and on, so this is my only post on the subject, but there’s plenty of evidence to the contrary w/r/t racial disparity in baseball.
From, Ben
by bentausig on Jul 30, 2009 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no racial disparity in baseball, other than the aggressive development of players from Latin America.
It is a fact, however, that when middle-aged white guys really like a player who is mediocre — be it the GM or a fan — you can bet your bottom dollar that player is a white guy.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 8:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno … Corey Patterson always seems to find a lot of work.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 8:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Corey Patterson is, ironically enough, currently looking for work.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 8:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes my very poor joke even poorer then!
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree for the most part (I mean, look at the hero worship for DeRosa by Cubs fans), but Coco had plenty of fans here in Cleveland. There was much more of an uproar wheh he was traded versus a Casey Blake.
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Different situation. And Blake had that bad-RISP reputation and wasn’t a high-average guy.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thrilled when we traded Blake and not happy when we traded Coco.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 3:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
However, I was thinking about my favorite pitchers currently in the bigs the other day…
And when Pedro makes his Phillies debut, he’ll be the only guy in my top 15 who isn’t white. King Felix is close and Fausto was way up there up until last season.
I’m thinking this isn’t unusual though because, well…
http://espn.go.com/mlb/stats/pitching/_/sort/wins/league/al/year/2009/seasontype/2
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with this but might say a mediocre black hitter doesn’t get the chance to stick around as long as the mediocre white guy. Lloyd McClendon, I guess, disagrees with this, but he was a pretty good hitter for a few seasons. I think mediocre black players don’t typically get the love from the managers or GMs that mediocre white guys do. The problem now, of course, is that there aren’t enough African American players in the game at all. But I agree with Chuck: fans don’t really care that much. Indians fans loved Andre Thornton. Coaches and managers, maybe a bit less so with their infatuations with mediocre players.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Among American-born players, black-white representation in the majors is pretty close to the general population. It’s only Latin American players who skew the percentages.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A report from the University of Central Florida’s Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport found that American or non-Hispanic blacks made up only 8.4 percent of major league rosters in 2006.
I believe African Americans currently make up 12% of U.S. population.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Right. Who cares?
Major League rosters are FILLED with non Americans. This makes African-Americans look under-represented in the context of ENTIRE rosters vs. American population.
by gte619n on Jul 30, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow. Could I have stated that in a more confusing manner?
by gte619n on Jul 30, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In the days of Al Oliver and Vida Blue there were more black American players. Not as a percentage, in numbers (adjusting for expansion).
I care because there have been many great African American ballplayers, from Henry Aaron to U.L. Washington.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My question is, Why do people think this is such a huge issue? It’s not like teams are still purposely not hiring black players. Pretty sure that every team (or at least most of them) would take the best players they think they can get, regardless of color.
The real issue is more a socio-economic one, i.e. Why don’t more black children get into baseball? That’s the one thing I really like about CC was his involvement with getting black youth into baseball.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To me that is the issue …
If a space vehicle landed on Earth tomorrow, and spit out a gelatinous creature that could go 40-40 every year, you know Boras would have it declared a free agent and the Yankees and Sox would bid to sign it.
Baseball is losing athletes, of all races, because it’s not the “cool” sport … and it’s extremely difficult to access for kids living in the inner-city.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think grown-ups ruined it, myself, wanting to dress their kids up like baseball stars. Travel leagues made me hate baseball, and no 12-year-old is going to say, hey, let’s drive 45 minutes to Chardon so I can ride the pine in 90 degree heat and watch my team get it’s ass whipped by a buncha kids who just squeezed under the age limit. It’s a beautiful game, but it’s not supposed to be joyless, and it’s sure as hell not supposed to be expensive.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well said
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, as a guy who played, coached and umpired … and can tell you the feeling is a whole lot different now than even 20 years ago.
Heck, I think there was a guy killed near Akron when a fight between coaches broke out during a traveling team tournament.
I will say though, that the best athletes are probably choosing other sports over baseball and this stage.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will say though, that the best athletes are probably choosing other sports over baseball at this stage.
The best American athletes. Not the best Venezuelan athletes.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this has something to do with body type though. Droobs and Victor wouldn’t be very good football or basketball players.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes. Although Garo Yepremian was 5’8", 175 pounds.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Droobs as a placekicker!
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The best Venezuelan athletes play soccer.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think that’s true. Their WBC team was pretty beastly.
Their futbol team, on the other hand, has never qualified for a world cup, and in general they’re considered the doormats of South America. I think baseball’s more or less the national sport.
by still ill on Jul 30, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t the US play Venezuela in the 1994 World Cup? The guy got shot for scoring on his own team or was that Colombia?
by Roger Dorn on Jul 30, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was Colombia.
Here’s a brief synopsis of Venezuela sucking at soccer.
by still ill on Jul 30, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking of Columbia too, lot of that going around apparently. Forgive me, because that was a really stupid comment.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No kidding. Blame it on the painkillers.
by junkballer on Jul 30, 2009 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a great point, but isn’t it the fault of suburbanization and not the parents?
My father coached a successful city (Toledo) team in the 80’s. As all the whites fled to the suburbs, they created these very powerful teams that would wipe the floor of the city teams when they played. So, with the shrinking player base in his area, he had to pool all the best players in the city (by signing their fathers on as coaches) just to compete with the suburban kids. This caused a problem in the city league, as his teams were too powerful for them and they didn’t invite him into the league so instead, the team was driving all over NE Ohio to find adequete competition.
He burned out and quit back in the mid-90’s. He tried to start up again a few years ago in his area with 9-10 year olds but couldn’t even generate enough interest to field a team. Sad.
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, even sadder, is: you can’t just let kids just go play unattended all day on the diamond.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kind of don’t believe in this.
I have been reading a book called “Free Range Kids” and the crime statistics don’t back up the notion that it’s anymore dangerous today than it was 20-30 years ago. Our perception of it is skewed by the massive amounts of negative media we ingest daily.
I think the sadder truth is that where there ARE diamonds, the kids that live around them don’t want to play.
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, this sounds right. That’s interesting. Is it that kids don’t want to play (too hot, too fat to run around the bases, too much Gears of War) or that parents won’t let them?
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s complicated. We don’t live near a diamond. The closest fields are at the little league complex a few miles away. I’d let my son play unsupervised, but I don’t have that option.
But it’s also true that kids don’t have as much interest in pickup games. They have swim teams, little league, video games, the internet. They’re way more overscheduled than we were as kids. Even little league is a greater time commitment – as a 9 year old, Nolan typically played games on Friday, Saturday and Sunday, sometimes one other weeknight too. Plus a practice or two.
He plays a lot of wiffleball with the boy next door, but virtually no real sandlot ball.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a class difference here, though. Middle class kids (and parents) are the ones most likely to overschedule. Less affluent kids are more likely to be brought up in households where letting kids “just go play” is the approach.
by peter m on Jul 30, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt. I would not, however, have the temerity to speculate about what other people do.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Gears of War is awesome
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nail on the head
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is the issue of the signing costs for drafted players versus undrafted players. (That is American/Canadian/Puerto Rican players versus Latin American players.) But I agree that the issue is more that kids (especially African American kids) are not playing baseball, and that that’s the real issue at hand.
by AngG on Jul 30, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I presume w/r/t means with regard to?
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This could go and on, so it’ll be my one and only post on the topic, but not so sure I agree about baseball’s colorblindness, and there’s plenty of evidence out there.
Not that we should single baseball out or anything, as an institution. But it’s not above the rest of the society in this regard – alternate universe Ryan Garko is, as we speak, being rapidly promoted to regional sales manager for a sales firm in Clearwater because he’s a “loyal team-player”; receiving extra attention from his third-grade teacher because he reminds her of her grandson; and landing the lead role in a Hollywood summer blockbuster because he has “classic good looks.”
From, Ben
by bentausig on Jul 30, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t mean to diminish your post one bit … but for some reason now I have the image of Ryan Garko as a 3rd grader in my head.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot of the inverse racist stuff is somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Not that we don’t believe it, but we don’t think it’s an epidemic or a dark spot on the game. “Scrappy white guy” is a meme far beyond LGT’s creation.
Jay says it well right above me:
when middle-aged white guys really like a player who is mediocre — be it the GM or a fan — you can bet your bottom dollar that player is a white guy.
And I think that’s probably all we need to say on the subject. Also! Logodaedalus is still racist.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt, most of our remarks on this are tongue-in-cheek. Whatever disparity exists, it is hardly epidemic.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m really looking forward to getting my head around the organizational depth. If we add another piece or two for Vic, we are looking at an elite system, I think.
by bewwolv on Jul 30, 2009 12:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We might also be looking at a 100 loss team. Guess ya gotta focus on the doughnut and not the hole.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 30, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, we could be. I don’ think it will be that ugly, but I have been resigned to giving up on 2010 for a while.
by bewwolv on Jul 30, 2009 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not losing 100 games in 2010. I’d be surprised if we lose more than 85. But I’m a doughnut kinda guy.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that would not be bad, we should have one of the top 4 pick this coming year and the same next year. Lets hope we find someone that can help us draft.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We might also be looking at a 100 loss team. Guess ya gotta focus on the doughnut and not the hole
in 2010? Because I highly doubt it.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
100 loses is a real feat. Even this year we probably won’t scratch it, and that is relying on what amounts to a AAA pitching staff. Even with the loss of Francisco, Garko, and even Martinez we still have a good offense. Washington on the other hand looks like they will definitely be rocking the 100 loss column. They have an offense that begins and ends with Adam Dunn (the running joke being to see what total is more, Dunn’s homers (26) or the Nats wins (32), doesn’t look good for Washington with Dunn having a career year) and Ryan Zimmerman, Their pitching staff is AA at best since they rushed all of them, one of which was having a good season until he went down (Zimmermann).
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Josh Willingham!
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
16HR 39RBI…and that’s after hitting two grand slams in a game.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
39 RBI says nothing. He would have 1.5 times as many if he played LF for us.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WAR: 2.6
wOBA: .406
OPS+: 160
DouchebagFactor: 0.1 Pedroias
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DouchebagFactor: 0.1 Pedroias
seems a bit high.
is that park-adjusted?
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jul 30, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Park adjustment seems unnecessary, as a douche is a douche everywhere. However, given the seeming prevalence of douches in the AL, a league adjustment may be in order.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t know. at Fenway, his douche factor kind of blends in, but i assume it would stick out in a place like Miller Park.
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jul 30, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Salient point here
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Park adjusted would be DouchebagFactor+
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This has to be standardized. I love it.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not sure the Pedroia makes a good standard unit of douche-ness, because every measurement will of necessity be fractional, i.e. it’s extremely unlikely that anyone could have a douchebag factor higher than one Pedroia.
I nominate the millipedroia.
by still ill on Jul 30, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Although you can just leave it as is and just write it out to three decimals, like hitting stats.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you guys are really onto something here
by cleveland teamer on Jul 30, 2009 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 6:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This guy is douching .850 this year! Send him to the Yankees!
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
But this is a surely a fluctuating scale as Pedroia continues to raise the level on his own doucheness. Is a .230 Pedroia in 2008 comparable to a .230 Pedroia in 2007? I see Pedroia himself as having been douchier in 07, so we may need a normalizing factor.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that works nicely. Is Justin capable of having a DF+ of over 100? I would think so.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, we’re all familiar with stats expressed as a percentage of 1. We could even come up with another stat to add to DF, to produce something akin to OPS. The AngerIndex (AI), calculated as how much a player wants to make Fausto Carmona punch him in the face. Expressed in Sheffields, of course.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about something to measure Entitledness; measured in Gomezes.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 9:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re going about this wrong. The Pedroia scale shouldn’t be looked at as a direct comparison to Pedroia. Think of it as a cross between a rate stat and the Cy Young Award. The actual Cy Young is not a unit of how similar you are to Cy Young, it’s just named that way because of the indelible legacy Cy left on pitching.
Or you could just say the Pedroia scale is a measure of how close to being like Pedroia a player is, with 10 being one whole Pedroia.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 31, 2009 3:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shouldn’t that say especially with the loss of Francisco we have a good offense?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d say it’s a distinct possibility the Tribe has a worse starting rotation in 2010. There’s no Cliff, for one, and more growing pains from Huff and Laffey. Westbrook and Carmona are unknowns. Throw in an injury or two, and you’ll be seeing a fair amount of Zach Jackson and a bargain basement free agent.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lewis, Carrasco, maybe even Rondon.
You could, by this method, eviscerate 80% of half the rotations in the majors, and 100% of the other half.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Throwing in an injury or two by definition eliminates 40% of your rotation. How many clubs have the depth to withstand that?
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is the Cleveland Indians, gentlemen. Believe all you want, but look at the history books. There’s a reasonable chance the Indians will have a worse rotation in 2010 than they did in 2009.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do the history books have to do with next year? Are you seriously suggesting that just by virtue of the fact we are a Cleveland team we are doomed to failure? Because that is just stupid.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
History books suggest things more often go wrong than go right. Read it and weep.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m a history major, so one would think I know that. So your point, boiled down, is that baseball is a fruitless endeavor that it is pointless to attempt to win because history dictates there is a high rate of failure. Is that it?
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But Tacitus is criticized for often failing to recognize the bigger picture. I think you may be doing the same here. Clearly, for things to go wrong for someone they have, of a necessity, gone right for someone else. So the whole point is somewhat illogical.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 8:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Second law of thermodynamics, sir. It never balances out. The House always wins.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not in baseball. It’s a zero sum game. Every win ultimately has to come at the expense of another’s loss and vice versa.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. That’s the whole point. Someone has to win for someone else to lose.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, gentlemen, I’m talking the New York Yankees. You have a beautifully balanced and mechanistic universe, where each action is balanced by an exact and opposite reaction, and all is well in the world. Next year will be great!
If you have such faith in the balance of your baseball universe, how do you explain the New York Yankees: A lifetime record of 9,534-7,275, a winning percentage of .567? (I know your answer: SSS.)
We do not have an even distribution of good things. All closed systems tend toward disorder, and the disorder in this system is obvious.
As to the greater question of whether good is evenly balanced with bad—just because there is a winner and loser in every game—you may have to wait 5000 years to achieve equilibrium. But, as noted historian Damon Runyan said, “Life is 6-5 against.”
by odradek on Jul 31, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
When did the Yankees last win the World Series? I know that the system is flawed, but it isn’t so flawed that it dooms all but one specific team.
by fwembt on Jul 31, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The system dooms a significant majority of teams, but some moreso than others. When was the last time the Cleveland Indians won the World Series?
As Sheldon Ocker wrote: “Optimistic talk is clearly the most desperate, optimism being the psychological state which bespeaks the greatest uncertainty as to the existence of good.”
by odradek on Jul 31, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re right. Let’s dissolve the team.
by fwembt on Jul 31, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As they say on cleveland.com: Back up the truck.
by odradek on Jul 31, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn’t more depth in the starting rotation decrease the odds of having a poor rotation?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
other than us not having Lee I think we will have a better rotation. We should have Westbrook back replacing Pavano, a year of learning by Huff and Laffey, Carmona back in the rotation and either Carrasco/Rondon/Sower for the 5th spot.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
other than that, Mrs. Lincoln……
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately, I think all of our pitchers would have to develop a lot in one offseason to collectively make up for the loss of a Cy Young award winner. I mean, if you’re replacing Lee with a Carrasco (or whoever), the other four guys had better improve by leaps and bounds or your rotation is going to get worse.
Perhaps if Carmona returns to 2007 form, but we’ll have to see something in the next few months before we hope for that.
by Chemo on Jul 30, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if some of us aren’t falling into the trap of “averaging out” the talent across our rotation, and forgetting to take into account that it’s not overall run prevention, but rather discrete wins, that matter. It seems to me that when you have an offense that’s as good as ours is this year (and figures to be again next year), you might be better off spreading the pitching talent around the rotation rather than concentrating it in one guy. It’s the same principle as wanting to score 5 or 6 runs with regularity, rather than scoring 2 sometimes and 9 sometimes.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a good point. I just hope that we’re actually spreading some talent around for next year’s rotation. As much as we all like Huff, he’s got a lot of improving to do before I would say he’s a real asset to a rotation. Same goes for a lot of our young guys.
by Chemo on Jul 30, 2009 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we will have a better gage the next two months where Huff will stand next year, he should still be pitching at AAA, but this has been speeded up a year because of injurys to Reyes, Lewis and Carmona lack of performance. I’m very happy with his progress.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, good point. We’re not winning many games that Lee starts this year anyways.
But if we trade Vic our run production goes down too.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well we’re not winning any games period this year, so that’s probably not the best comparison. But still.
And of course our run production goes down without Vic, but a) we’ve seen how potent an offense in which Vic is almost a non-factor, not to mention in which Grady is performing well below his potential, can be; and b) I still think the added “security” contributed by adding pitching depth is more valuable than keeping Victor in an offense that will still be a major force without him.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That sounds good. Everything will be great next year!
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does Zachson have an option remaining for next year?
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t think so. Nor does Reyes, who probably gets released prior to the Rule 5 deadline, to make room for a prospect.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is the non-tender date before or after the Rule 5 deadline? I can never remember.
I always assumed Reyes would be one of those “non-tender, but re-sign to minor league” deal type of guys.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but he has to agree to that.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, the minor-league deal obviously.
And with Boras as his agent, he may not.
I guess i meant that what I assumed the Indians would try to do.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Boras would probably turn down 900K from us, then sign for the minimum 2 months later.
< /borashate>
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We really need good infield defense next year if we want to look good, don’t we?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well you take the best pitcher, one of the more realiable closers, and two of their top five hitters – I’m assuming Marinez will be gone soon – offa a team playing sub-.400 ball in mid-season and a 100 loses seems quite possible to me.
In August of ‘09 the Cleveland Indians look like the ’85 Cleveland Indians to me. With Hafner playing the role of Thorton, Sizemore as Carter, Westbrook as Neal Heaton, and the ’09 club without it’s Burt Blylevan. Pretty sure the 09 club doesn’t line up as good as those guys. And those guys went 60 and 102 and then backed that up by going 61 and 101 two years later.
Now the ‘85 club had two guys on it that should – according Mr. Posnanski – end up in the HoF, but they still lost 102 games. Who do you think’s on the current roster who might deserve consideration?
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 31, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Current as of today or as of Monday?
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 31, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Either.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 31, 2009 3:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We aren’t losing 100 games. Teams that lose 100 games have no talent, no strong minor league system, and terrible pitching. Our pitching, while not great, is not 100 loss bad
by Roger Dorn on Jul 30, 2009 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m worried I’ll wake up tomorrow and find Victor Martinez in another uniform. We got rid of Lee, Francisco, Garko and DeRosa, but NO to Martinez.
No to Sizemore. No to Martinez. No to Choo-choo. No to Carroll.
by Cleveland Indians on Jul 30, 2009 12:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Carroll is a bit an of oddity there to be hellbent on keeping.
by JRontherim on Jul 30, 2009 12:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why has everyone forgot about Pavano? Carrol. Pavano, Martinez – I’ll bet Shapiro doesn’t get a moments sleep for the next 2 days.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 30, 2009 1:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m having a hard time imagining a big market for Pavano right now. I’d be thrilled to get anything for him.
by junkballer on Jul 30, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll bet you see Pavano (Texas?), VMart (Bosox?), and Peralta (Twinkies? Who else?) traded by tomorrow. It should be very interesting. I’m still excited. But then again I’ve bought into rebuilding with a target for late 2010 or early 2011 as the beginning of our next “window”.
Trading Cliffy was like a huge hill with a twist in the middle of a roller coaster – there’s still twists and turns to come.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Peralta is not good enough at bunting.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think FO is still very high on Peralta. No one is going to take Pavano. We will have to give him away in a waiver deal (like we did with Byrd).
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree – I think we could get a A-ball pitcher for him from the Rangers given their need for SP and salary constraints this year. He’s the perfect storm for them given the majority of his starts.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
there are some decent concerns with Padilla and Millwood in Texas right now…so I agree, there could be a chance we get a Low A player for Pavano. Although, Pavano isn’t exactly the model of health either. Who knows though.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 30, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh god, Pavano pitching more than 5 games in that ballpark…
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think anyone has forgotten about Pavano. I just see us having a hard time trading him after his last two starts
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also! Anyone else remember how Pavano pitched in Texas?
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
small sample size?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it’s a SSS, but it’s a SSS in his potential home park.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sss is sss
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Doh. Ignore me above.
And yeah, it’s SSS, but he’s sucked lately period. Pitching there would not help. Too bad SD isn’t in contention.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pavano is an August deal.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah. Pavano gets through waivers.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or some poor bastard GM gets stuck explaining to his owner why he’s paying Pavano’s incentive clause money.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
“Well, boss, to answer this one, we’re gonna have to go all the way back to the Civil War…”
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No to Carroll? Are you drunk? I wouldn’t say absolute no to anybody, depending on what you get back. Maybe Grady.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 7:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say that our “core” of players has shifted. I’d say that the new core on the ML club centers around Grady, Choo AstroCab and maybe Huff. Otherwise, if you’re on the big league club – you’re trade fodder in the next day or so (and maybe into the offseason).
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re not going to get ANYONE better, younger and huge upside in return for Choo and/or Cabrera in the current market. So yes, that makes Choo and Cabby absolutely UNTOUCHABLE. If you’re giving Grady the “maybe” and would greenlight a Choo or Cabby trade (none older than 27), then save yourself the trouble and get rid of everyone to grab a bunch of 19 year old prospects. Maybe you’ll have a chance at the 2020 World Series.
And no to Carroll.
by Cleveland Indians on Jul 30, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know why I keep saying no to a Carroll trade. Jamie just seems so reliable. He doesn’t strike out often and has one of the higher OBP on the team. Granted, he’s only had 166 at bats but aside from on-field performance, I would assume he serves as someone that keeps the team afloat mentally. He just seems like that type of guy. He reminds me of Paul Byrd – someone that’s completely underrated and more valuable that he appears to be.
by Cleveland Indians on Jul 30, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think everything lines up about right for Carroll — salary, playing time, contract. But that’s this season. He’s 36 and his best asset is his glove. Somethin’s gotta give.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More to the point, the well-paid utility infielder is a contending team’s luxury. We can go buy another Carroll at the deadline if we’re in the hunt next year, but it’s senseless to throw 7 figures at that guy when you can reasonably approximate his production at league minimum.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And, for the hat trick… It’s even more senseless when you can have him AND some other prospect of value. We will get a Something for Carroll.
Hell, we might be able to ask for Max Ramirez back.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wheee, another catching prospect!
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is not, to my knowledge, anyone named Something in the minor leagues. However, there were two different players in the 19th century nicknamed Death to Flying Things. We don’t use death in nicknames nearly enough anymore.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think you make a trade for them, and you certainly don’t shop them. Doesn’t mean that if a GM goes insane tomorrow and actually offers you value, you don’t think about it. Who has proposed a trade of any of those guys anyway? That’s just emotional if-they’ll-trade-Cliff-they’ll-trade-anyone speak.
And putting Carroll on an untouchable list is beyond insane. I ♥ Baboo as much as anyone, but he’s a utility infielder, for God’s sake. A good utility infielder, but let’s get real.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and he’s not signed after this year
Of the guys we haven’t already traded, he and Pavano are the no-brainers.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay fine, maybe placing Carroll in the must-keep-list is a bit off. But I would like to keep him if at all possible. In other words, I wouldn’t offer Carroll unless teams ask.
by Cleveland Indians on Jul 30, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you missing the part about his contract being up after this year? We’re not going to win anything this year, so Shapiro should be (and is) shopping Carroll vigorously.
We could resign him next year (even if he’s traded), but he makes too much for a utility infielder on a (probably) non-contending team.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The no to Carroll part is absolutely insane.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Carroll part is pretty funny.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh. Get this from Hoynes:
The Indians could have gotten outfielder Dominic Brown or Michael Taylor in the deal, but at the expense of Marson or Knapp. The Indians wanted Knapp and feel they have enough corner outfielders.
So they could have taken Brown, but they preferred Marson. I guess they feel as though they don’t have enough catchers.
by Jeffrey R on Jul 30, 2009 1:01 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I came to this site because I thought it would be Hoynes free?
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why? He’s the beat reporter with the tribe. He has access
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that Hoynes’ reporting has actually improved once the Tribe went into the tank. It seems like reporting on an awful baseball team is more in keeping with Hoynes’ style.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 30, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Hoynes roots for the Indians to be awful (predict them to finish behind KC in 2007 anyone) because an awful team lends to his trash journalism. The man is ******* garbage. When the Tribe is down he yucks it up to the fair weather peanut gallery by ragging on whoever he can.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you’re being a little harsh here. Hoynes just doesn’t enjoy winning – or at least his reporting doesn’t feel like he does. But I think that his stance now fits the team’s situation. But you may be right, he just might be a real negative asshole. I dunno.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 30, 2009 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think for a lot of reporters, wallowing in the losing seems like less of an objectivity problem than partying with the winning.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More experience, Chuck. That’s his beat.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone who is salivating about Brown actually looked at his numbers?
He is 4 months younger than Michael Brantley and OPSing .910 at A+. He OPSed .797 in A last year.
4 months!
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That, sir, is a remarkably solid point.
by junkballer on Jul 30, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, this post just forced me to look it up. Color me unimpressed.
Preference for major league ready guys as well, I would imagine.
by bewwolv on Jul 30, 2009 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s a good point. I’m just obviously perplexed by the inclusion of Marson, though I have no doubt they have reasons. I just wonder what they are.
by Jeffrey R on Jul 30, 2009 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh, yeah, I know, but even after trading Vic they will have a surplus, even before Santana is ready.
Maybe it is just because it is such a skill position, so quality big leaguers are a valuable asset that could be spun off down the road. Kind of like how we had excess CF’s and were able to spin off Crisp and later Gutz for other pieces we needed.
by Jeffrey R on Jul 30, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, I mean Marson going to Boston as well. Vic is not an answer at catcher for them and they truly need a catcher for the next 3-4 years from what I understand.
You know what else they need? A SS.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm.
But I don’t understand one thing: why couldn’t Vic be an answer at catcher for the next 3-4 years? He is only 30, not 35. It is a physically demanding position, but Posada, Pudge, and Varitek are three guys I can think of off the top of my head who were productive at the position through their early thirties. The Indians have been spoiled with the luxury of a quality back-up who could regularly spell him behind the plate, which seems like a good thing that keeps Victor fresh and performing at a high level. I understand it may not make sense for the Indians, but I do not see why he could not remain a primary catcher for the next 4-5 years.
by Jeffrey R on Jul 30, 2009 1:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am of the opinion, and I don’t share it all that often, that Vic is at the end of the line as a catcher. He has again lost total control of the running game this year (17% of runners caught) and this coming off of an elbow surgery (hopes it was actually his throwing elbow…). This is not a huge deal for the Indians right now but if the Indians were in the playoffs I think it would be a big deal.
Varitek’s defense is basically why they need a catcher now. He’s given up 73 stolen bases in 75 games; that’s to many in a tight race.
The Red Sox are going to be in the playoffs pretty much all the time. I don’t think they can have their full time catcher be such a liability in a short series.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm. Maybe. I’m too tired to think this through now. I do think that people say he is very good at other aspects of catching (calling a game, blocking balls, etc.). And I do wonder how much of that caught stealing is on the pitchers — for comparison, Shoppach is only at 18% this season.
by Jeffrey R on Jul 30, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
…although of course, they are have generally been catching different pitchers. shrug
by Jeffrey R on Jul 30, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
At some point, it doesn’t matter if Vic is good at the “other aspects.” I think, and this is just observational, that he’s back to the point where anyone can steal on him, any time. In 2006, people ran all over Victor and it was obviously a problem. He’s back there arm wise, teams just don’t need to run on us.
Is some of it on the pitchers? Probably. But, again observationally, Vic doesn’t make any good throws, really.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Chone Figgins had his ass gunned out pretty easily Tuesday night by Vic. The throw was heyday sandy Alomar-esque
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t see it. Mark it in the “I could be wrong” column.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 1:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, yer right. He just can’t throw ‘em out consistantly enough, plus, his body’s starting to break down. How do I know, when catcher’s start having both leg (hamstring) and arm problems, the career is pretty much swirling down the bowl.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 30, 2009 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully he can move to first and survive.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn’t like four different Angels baserunners get gunned down, only none of them were actually called out?
by Chemo on Jul 30, 2009 1:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, that’s true, and it would bring his CS% over 25%.
by Jeffrey R on Jul 30, 2009 1:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that was the night Shoppach caught…Monday
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Victor can still catch full-time.
His numbers may be down on base-stealers, but it’s part-time play in half a season. I wouldn’t put too much stock in those numbers.
In 2006, he had a broken toe most of the season. Once healthy, in 2007, he was one of the better catchers in the league.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Varietek behind the plate would be a serious problem for the Sawx in a playoff series with the Rays.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And apparently there was preseason speculation about a Buchholz-Marson trade, but the Sox thought the price was too high. It was probably just mindless chatter given that Boston needed/needs a catcher and everyone seems to want Buchholz in return
by brookjacoby on Jul 30, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d trade Marson and Donald for Buchholz. And suddenly this trade looks like a win.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know you’re joking, but Castrovince is saying the Red Sox aren’t even likely to give us great prospects for Vic, much less giving us Buchholz .
This could be really depressing.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank goodness I have recently purchased alcohol.
by AngG on Jul 30, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, I mean; Buchholz for Marson seems so absurd. We can’t get him for an all-star catcher and probably couldn’t have gotten him for the Cy Young winner.
Our leverage must really blow.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think our leverage blows because everyone in the blogosphere is reporting that at this point salary dump is primary, and rebuilding for 20?? is secondary. You have to wonder how Shapiro views his future if this is the direction the organization is going. They’re either setting him up to fail or hoping he’s some kind of freakin’ alchemist.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
DAMNED BLOGGERS
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t buy this. I have seen conflicting reports. The Boston Globe guy said Cleveland turned down Buccholz for Vic
by Roger Dorn on Jul 30, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Feels to me like both sides could have turned that deal down: Cleveland wanted more than one player, Boston hoped to keep ccholz.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at this point, with all the fuss over Buchholz, who is undoubtedly overrated because of the no-hitter, the Indians should just ask for a package centered around Masterson or Bowden — less hype, and possibly almost as good. Bowden is two years younger than Lord Clay as well (with almost a year less service time), and was ranked as the #2 prospect in the Boston system by BA, coming into this year. Maybe fill out the package with a single A pitcher and/or infielder — I don’t really know what they have.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sorry, but when someone points out Lord Clay’s no hitter as evidence of his greatness all I can think about is Bud Smith.
by The Grimace on Jul 31, 2009 12:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who waved at me once. My 12 year old girl self melted since he was the cutest thing ever. At that point I didn’t care that he sucked.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 31, 2009 1:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You were 12 when Bud Smith was pitching? I don’t think that’s possible.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 31, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know how old I was. I was not in high school yet though and I was old enough to care about what boys looked like. I usually pick 12 when I pick a number.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 31, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was 12. It was in 2001.
I have always said that if I kept saying 12 as my number of choice it had to be right sometime and today was that day.
And if this is some crack about my “age”, well then, I don’t have much to say.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 31, 2009 2:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is most possible. Bud Smith last pitched 7-8 years ago.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/s/smithbu02.shtml
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 31, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The more I think about it the more I think he was referring to me being 57 and a man.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 31, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe the actual report is the other way around, that Boston turned down a one-for-one. But I’ve heard conflicting reports.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 31, 2009 4:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
excellent point. Though Taylor is impressive
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has anyone who is salivating about Brown actually looked at his numbers?
He is 4 months younger than Michael Brantley and OPSing .910 at A+. He OPSed .797 in A last year.
4 months!
But that’s because Brantley has always been relatively young for his level. This seems like the standard HS vs college player age difference. At his current rate Brown will be 23 in AAA. Doesn;t seem too bad
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s not terrible. But it’s not a player that I’m going to bemoan losing. I mean, Marson is like 15 months older, hit .849 as a 22 year old in AA and is a catcher.
I just there’s some dittoheading going around about not getting one of the “big position prospects” from the Phillies. Brown and Taylor both seem fine but I think there’s an equally strong argument to be made for Marson.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 1:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I basically agree. I still think that when trading a top of the rotation pitcher you should get an elite prospect in return. But it looks like people are equating widely talked about with elite. (IE “They talked about Brown a lot so he must be elite”)
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Brown seems to be the recipient of some talked about hype.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 1:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Donald is the prospect being most overlooked. Before this season he was putting up borderline video game numbers
wOBA:
A- .358
A- .381
A+ – .397
AA- .402
And all of this as a SS. The biggest knock on his defense seems to be that he might have to play 2nd. Seems like a great prospect to me
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I know it’s an even more difficult game than our typical “buy low on major league starters” but this “buy low on minor leaguers” is looking more and more like a spot Shapiro has identified as a market imbalance.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 3:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the real product of hype in this deal is another player we did not receive, Kyle Drabek. It must be his pedigree because I don’t see much to be impressed about . And TJ surgery at 20 usually doesn’t bode well.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s also that Drabek has been improving this year, while Carrasco, Donald, and Marson seem to have regressed a bit. Whether they actually have or not is a different argument, but when you see a 5.18 ERA or a .629 OPS (or a .235 BA or the unenlightened), you’re bound to question it next to a 2.78 or .959.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not salivating over anyone. I think a huge part of the prospect discussion has been hype-driven.
Here’s our preseason BP Top 11, interlayed with the guys we’ve gotten.
Five-Star Prospects
1. Matt LaPorta, LF
2. Carlos Santana, C
1. Carlos Carrasco, RHP
Four-Star Prospects
3. Nick Weglarz, LF
3. Chris Perez, RHP
Three-Star Prospects
4. Adam Miller, RHP
5. Beau Mills, 1B
5. Lou Marson, C
5. Jess Todd, RHP
6. Hector Rondon, RHP
7. David Huff, LHP
8. Trevor Crowe, OF
6. Jason Donald, SS
8. Connor Graham, RHP
9. Carlos Rivero, SS
10. Lonnie Chisenhall, SS
11. Michael Brantley, CF/1B
10. Jason Knapp, RHP
unranked
Cliff Barnes, LHP
I used BP’s rankings because KG’s star ratings give us a patina of context across systems.
These are preseason rankings, so there has been some movement. Rondon and Chisenhall are up, but so is Knapp. Carrasco seems to be in a down year, but not as much as Brantley.
Carrasco is better than Huff, Donald is better than Rivero, Marson is better than Gimenez/Toregas, and Knapp is better than Gomez. Those are all significant guys in our system.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa there nellie! Brantley as a mere 3-Star Prospect? And playing CF/1B? Really? Brantley playing 1B when LaPorta is in LF? Why on earth? I’ve heard people saying he’s good enough CF to move Grade to LF. And based on his age and projections – why only 3 Stars? I thought he was the sleeper of the CC trade – at least he should be a 4 star prospect.
And I also take issue that Rondon is only a 3 Star as well. I’d place him a 4 star as well based upon everything I’ve heard.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think coming into this year, there had been some serious questions about Rondon and his secondary pitches.
In fact, I think the Indians themselves were still questioning them a bit, even when they promoted him to AAA.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I’ve listen to too much Paul’s and Lastoria’s commentary how he’s our top pitching prospect (pre-trades) and within our Top 5 in the system.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 9:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know Baseball America has always valued De La Cruz higher than him.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not at this point.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
in last week’s chat, Callis actually said this:
De la Cruz had two outstanding starts in high Class A before his elbow started bothering him, and if he’s healthy, he could be Cleveland’s best pitching prospect.
Obviously the “if healthy” is the big caveat.
As for overall pitcher rankings … he also said this:
I’d rank them House, Rondon, Perez, but you could put them in almost any order and defend it.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder when Jeanmar Gomez begins to force his way onto this list.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe when he gets another decent pitch.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just copy-pasted from the BP articles. Read nothing into the position listings, which I’m sure are based on 2008 playing time.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
These are preseason rankings, so there has been some movement.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like Alexander Perez maybe?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Trevor Crowe up there but not Jordan Brown? Just because of draft position?
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 9:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ask KG. Crowe has always been overrated, and he finished 2008 strong, and this is a pre-2009 ranking.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It always made sense.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the record, I wasn’t accusing you of all people of salivating over Brown.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Indians could have gotten outfielder Dominic Brown or Michael Taylor in the deal, but at the expense of Marson or Knapp. The Indians wanted Knapp and feel they have enough corner outfielders
I’m not sure about the wording here, or how much Hoynes knows, but it also sounds like picking Brown or Taylor could have lost them Knapp. It’s clear Knapp was their guy.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More to the point, Brown and Taylor are not close to the majors. Close than those two, we have LaPorta, Brantley and Weglarz — Crowe and Brown for depth — and we have Sizemore and Choo locked in for another three-plus seasons. You can definitely see the front office’s point that they acquiring more corner outfielders would be the lowest priority now.
Also! The Indians don’t really acquire corner outfielders in general. They acquire center fielders (or at worst tweener-borderline guys like Choo and Francisco), and they acquire big-thump bats. It may well be that they aren’t convinced that either Brown or Taylor is an impact bat or a guy who could play CF in a pinch. And if that’s the case, they wouldn’t be interested.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I keep thinking Jordan Brown and Taylor Green when I read this.
I’m really glad we didn’t get Brown. That could have gotten weird considering Brown a top prospect.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why do love fake charts and graphs so much?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What software did you use to make this? I need this piece of software.
by gte619n on Jul 30, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would guess graphjam.com but I don’t know.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha
The commentors on fangraph’s are applauding over Ben Fransisco as part of the deal
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
4th OF with decent major league experience. A bench player playoff contenders would crave. Especially with the injury history of Ibanez, Victorino, and Werth.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That would be like me applauding over the acquisition of a salad fork.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we had alot worse 4th outfielder than Ben the last 2-3 years
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That’s because we had someone as bad as Ben as our third outfielder.
by junkballer on Jul 30, 2009 1:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dellucci/Michaels/Nixon
The only one since 2006 was a old man name Lofton
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ben made his debut in 2007 and played in only 25 games. In 2008 he was one of our three outfielders and was exactly league average. Dellucci was our fourth OF, and was even worse. This year Ben was again a starter, again league average and our fourth OF is the abysmal Trevor Crowe.
That to say, calling Ben Francisco our fourth outfielder is intellectually dishonest and doesn’t reflect exactly how terrible our third and fourth outfielders have been the last two years.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 2:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
was not saying Ben was our 4th outfielder in 2008. I think we had in the outfield last year Sizemore, Gutierrez, Dellucci, Michaels, Choo, and last but not least Tyner. Ben was better than 3 of them, does that make him good no but not bad.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, he’s the same player no matter who is around him and that player is nothing more than a barely above marginal major leaguer. Yes, he is better than our fourth outfielder has been but it is only because our third outfielder is so bad that our fourth outfielder is worse.
Among OF’s that got 400 PA last year, Ben was 50th in OPS. That puts him behind such luminaries as Eric Hinske and Fred Lewis. That is not indicative of a good player. That’s all I’m saying. Losing Ben in this trade is not at all a big deal. Like Ryan said, he’s a nice fit for them and he gets us more of what we want.
by fwembt on Jul 30, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree completly, just misunderstood what you were saying
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think of it like when coco was dealt. we were dealing from an area of depth. coco was a centerfielder we were playing in left. he had more value to someone else in the proper role. francisco was a 4th outfielder playing as a 3rd outfielder. he has more value to someone else in that role…
by Brick. on Jul 30, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, Ben is a fringe player, and his main assets are right-handedness, cheapness, and being not entirely laughable in center field.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He looks like one of the Cosby Kids from Fat Albert to boot!
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tyner was in fact least.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Francisco’s a nice fit for what the Phillies were looking for – a fourth outfielder who can play center, pinch run, and can hit with power.
by Ryan on Jul 30, 2009 8:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fransisco is fine as strictly a fourth outfielder but I wouldn’t consider him a steal like they’re making him out to be
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Few thoughts on this trade and the Tribe…
1) At first I was steamed with this trade. Not because we traded Lee, but because the haul didn’t really make sense. It still doesn’t. I like Carasco and Knapp, but Donald and Marson aren’t really organizational needs. I could see flipping them, but even then with the teams economy in mind it’s not going to be for veteran help to push this team over in case of contention until at least 2011. More pitching depth would help.
2) Wood’s contract really hurt the Tribe. I think it was more knee jerk reaction to the awfulness of Wickman and Borowski that spurred Shapiro to pursue Wood. Problem is, if the team failed (which it has) his contract is virtually un-tradeable.Which it now is until at least a year from now when most of the contract has already been paid out. If having Lee (and possibly Martinez) makes little sense next year what place does a 10 million dollar closer who is under performing have?
3) I don’t really get why we included Francisco. I think he has more value to us in rebuilding and retooling for 2011. If Philly sweetened the deal to get him then okay. But if Lee netted us Carasco, Knapp, and either Donald or Marson I don’t think it was worth throwing in Francisco to get the both of the later. Now Crowe becomes our utility OF, if his development suffers or he turns out to be a bust who do you replace him with? Free agency isn’t an option unless it is the scrap heap…but the recent failures of Delucci and the bullpens may shy Shapiro away from that.
4) Just as in 2001/2002 when the Alomar and Colon trades when down I am excited to watch this team develop. Some of the funnest years watching the Tribe in the 1990’s were right near the end of Muni and the first year in the Jake. The fair weather element wasn’t present like it would be come mid 1995 which made the games largely not enjoyable to attend. When I have to sit next to people who are in their late 40’s and are only there because it is the “in” thing to do ask what the big yellow poles are for it really chaffs my ass. Watching this team in 2003 and 2004 really built up the excitement for 2005 and 2007. These new economic driven cycles may be hard to watch when they come around, but once they start rolling they are a treat.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Now Crowe becomes our utility OF, if his development suffers or he turns out to be a bust who do you replace him with?
Trevor Crowe: 11/17/1983
There is no development left. He is a warm body.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it so hard to believe Francisco has some value to this team? It’s not like we are talking Tim Drew being sent with Colon here. Francisco has put up some solid numbers if you take him as a 4th OF, something this team will need, especially with Sizemore not at 100%. You plug Crowe in and he sucks how long are you going to let him flounder and barely hit his weight before you have to rush a prospect or bring up some other unproven to fill that gap. While I enjoyed watching the Indians in 2002, watching Chris Magruder in the OF wasn’t exactly fun.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 1:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But that’s just it. This season is over, and Crowe is pretty much over. The team (and Crowe) can suck for the rest of the season and it won’t matter to anyone.
by Wil Cantrell on Jul 30, 2009 1:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is, he can be the Indians version of Brian Anderson. Letting him suck on the big squad doesn’t do any harm to anyone.
by Wil Cantrell on Jul 30, 2009 2:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And then we trade him to Boston! Perfect.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Indians are going for a higher draft pick. That’s my only explanation for not promoting LaPorta.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That, and they don’t have a backup CF for when Grady needs a day off.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah – Ok. I’ll at least give you logic there… I still would’ve shuffled the roster a bit more to bring up LaPorta.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you could certainly dispose of a pitcher from the 13-man staff … although I’m sure there are still plenty of questions about how deep into games these guys can get.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The company line is that he needs more time at 1B. They want him to play 1st and Left before they bring him up. I don’t have any reason to not believe them at this point.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The good thing is that Crowe’s playing will finally eliminate all pretense of “development” and “player of the future.” He will be revealed to be a sixth outfielder.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
barely hit his weight
Wait, wait you’re not talking about batting average are you? Jay’s gonna be mean to you.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 30, 2009 2:14 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, I am talking about his OPS….should have said hit/walk his weight.
by The Grimace on Jul 30, 2009 2:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know Batting average is not a bad word or at least not a four letter word, but what the hell do I know.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watching this team in 2003 and 2004 really built up the excitement for 2005 and 2007.
Very true.
And hey, Wickman wasn’t bad. Lesser known than the subject line rule is the rule prohibiting lumping Wickman with all of our other terrible closers.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But, but he was FAT. All fat pitchers suck.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t care what anyone says, Wickman was still heart-attack inducing.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, but his troubles were not because people were smacking him around. He would give up walks or get into bad luck with groundballs (errors, seeing-eye singles or choppers) that would often result in a guy at 1st or 1st and second.
Although I like having a flame-thrower that can miss bats in the back of the pen, I dearly miss a guy that can induce a groundball to get out of jams.
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’d think people would have picked this one up by now.
Franchise career leader in Saves, with a very good conversion rate, pitched brilliantly down the stretch a couple of times … what does he have to do for respect with Indians fans?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not resemble Borowski physically. Visit each one individually and make a presentation. Buy them all a beer.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look like John Rocker. Big, broad-shouldered. A mean glare or face, a la Papelbon. Antics on the mounds, like Hrabosky.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Borowski by no means resembled Wickman, physically. Borowski appeared to be in good shape
by Roger Dorn on Jul 30, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saves. Wheeeee.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Google Ads keeps taunting me with the Depression/Anxiety treatment center ads.
HOW DO THEY KNOW
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 4:50 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Because we were listing the seven stages of coping yesterday?
by NickFantana on Jul 30, 2009 9:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just play some discreet Evony, and you’ll be fine.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You gotta hand it to Evony’s marketing people – their ads definitely hit their target market.
by Ryan on Jul 30, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In that they hit every market? Yes.
by NickFantana on Jul 30, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This may get me in trouble, because it’s a bit of an abstract concept … but I do believe young teams, as this one is shaping up to be, could always use a veteran guiding hand or two.
When Vic is traded, I kind of look to this roster and wonder who that person will be.
Grady doesn’t seem to be a vocal type of leader, more a leader by his actions. I wonder if a conversation will be had about him stepping up and filling that role.
Peralta doesn’t seem to be that guy.
I’m not playing the “chemistry” card here, I just think a veteran or 2 can be helpful as a guiding hand (until, of course, they play every day at the expense of a younger player.)
Perhaps, there will be a couple “Trot Nixon” type additions in the off-season.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 8:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Careful, careful. One perceived way to help young guys is to have a young manager to whom they can relate.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely. I think the manager is a vital component in this.
But I do think having “peers” that can guide them through the adjustment to big league life is a big plus.
I remember hearing stories of how Ellis Burks (who was still a productive player), took young players under his wing.
Like I said, I’m not trying to overplay the “team chemistry” card here … because I think there’s a lot of bunk in there … I’m just concerned about the clubhouse void trading Victor will leave.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 9:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s Ellis Burks doing these days? Does he have any minor league managerial experience? I could get on an Ellis Burks managerial bandwagon.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s a special assistant in the Tribe’s front office, actually.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmm.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THERE’s our backup CF!
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He has season tickets to the Cavs behind the visitor’s bench. I see him on TV most games.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know a young manager who has a reputation for relating well to (most) young players?
Eric Wedge.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just stop now. Stop.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which would be the point I was trying to make – be careful talking about how these kids need a helping hand, or else you might get more Eric Wedge.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But it’s true. This was what he was widely acclaimed for when he came on board, and it seemed/seems legit.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Getting back to the point on Wedge, there is now a fairly long list of young players he has failed to relate to.
There’s also a nice list of players who are rated with such off-the-charts makeup that the manager’s deft touch wouldn’t matter.
In between? A very thin vein of marginal players whom Wedge may have reached and helped to become marginal.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I mean is, the party line (and I think the media was on this boat too) when Wedge was hired is that he was the Perfect Guy for a young rebuilding team. And then we started to make noise before most people thought we would and that reputation solidified. When I say “it’s true,” I just mean the reputation.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok, fine, but what happens once this rebuilding teams is ready to contend again?
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dunno. I’m not advocating Wedge to stay on, and I’m not even really saying that this is a reason for the FO to consider it. Really just focused on his “reputation” when he got here.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 31, 2009 4:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the Wedge good with young guys meme is overblown.
Okay, you know what you do? You buy yourself a tape recorder, you just record yourself for a whole day. I think you’re going to be surprised at some of your phrasing.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 31, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m sure it is. I’m just—again—trying to tell you what the book on him reportedly was when he became the manager.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 31, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The italics were for me. AD reference. Sorry if you missed that.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 31, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was referring to the non-italics part of your post.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 31, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Those are great guys to have when you are making a pennant run. Otherwise, they are just taking away AB’s from younger players.
Do you really want a guy like Graffinino taking AB’s away from Valbuena or (whoever our utility guy is next year) because he has “veteran presence”?
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought this was clear:
(until, of course, they play every day at the expense of a younger player.)
No, I don’t need them to play. I want the kids to play.
I just wonder who the voice of leadership is. The guy that holds people accountable. The guy that keeps things loose.
Maybe Grady becomes that guy … and in a best-case scenario he does.
I will always choose for the young kids to play, but there’s an off-field component to becoming a successful big leaguer too.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kerry Wood kills bears. Hey kids: stay in line or we’ll put you in a bear suit.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dellucci and Trot Nixon were veteran presence at one time. Didn’t do a lot of good. Yet so was El Presidente, Sany Alomar Jr, etc.
Not sure if it’s significant or not. Did the Rays have much “veteran presence” last year? Did they need it?
by Wil Cantrell on Jul 30, 2009 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Maddon filled that role as manager. But I wasn’t in the clubhouse either, pure speculation.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 30, 2009 9:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, you could argue the veteran presence did do a lot of good since the only year we made the playoffs under Shapiro was when the team had both Dellucci and Nixon
by Roger Dorn on Jul 30, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not convinced about Dellucci, but Nixon really helped loosen the young guys up…definitely helped them to have fun
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 30, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure. But I was thinking performance, not pie in the face type of stuff. I wasn’t in the clubhouse either, so who knows?
I would tend to agree though that having a balance of youngsters and veteran leadership works best, along with a manager who can relate to the kids-he doesn’t necessarily have to be young.
How’s that for non committal?
I will take a stand and say that having a guy like Luvollo as manager helps if you’re bringing up a a bunch of kids since he’s obviously seen them day in and day out. Hint, hint Shapiro.
by Wil Cantrell on Jul 30, 2009 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d rather we go outside the org for next manager, personally
by Roger Dorn on Jul 30, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bobby Valentine is available for next year. Not saying he’s the best answer, but certainly a possibility.
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 30, 2009 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We could put a suit on Connie Mack’s remains.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eral Weaver is still alive, no? Sparky Anderson? Tommy Lasorda?
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1.
Although, I still don’t believe Shap will fire his partner, as much as I’d like to see it.
by Wil Cantrell on Jul 30, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is +1 to outside the org, not Bobby Valentine.
by Wil Cantrell on Jul 30, 2009 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would John Farrell be considered outside the organization? Seems like he would be a nice fit, since we’re going to have to develop/rebuild a lot of starting pitching in the next couple of years.
by Ryan on Jul 30, 2009 9:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As long as none of those pitchers are Asian.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s a joke after Dice-K tossed Farrell’s throwing program under the bus.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d like the John Farrell idea. He certainly fits that criteria for having knowledge of the minor league system.
by Wil Cantrell on Jul 30, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s my personal #1 choice.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Farrell has been my guy for a while and I didn’t even want to fire Wedge for most of that time.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sounds good to me, what do you think the chances of this happening, Wedge’s way or the highway is get stale.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I posted something about this awhile back. He’s got to be on whatever short list Shapiro might keep in his head. Familiarity with the organization. Seems to be a solid pitching coach and seems pretty sharp to me. Plus, the Sawx would be pissed!
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m all about Farrell. I asked my red sox fan-friend about this and he said he would rather the Red Sox keep Farrell than Francona. It would be awesome if we could pry him away from Boston.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Castrovince points out that Wedge is under contract for $1 million bucks for next season and might well keep his job for that reason alone. Don’t shoot the messenger.
by MTF on Jul 30, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is gross. I think I just threw up a little.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
JackDelRioconomics!
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think I just threw up a lot.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
To me, Nixon was the key. The team seemed to play loose while we was on that bench. The whole pie thing, as silly as it seemed, was a piece of that. And I recall Nixon leading the charge on that front.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Trot Nixon was here when we were playing tight as hell through July and the first part of August when we couldn’t score runs. We were fortunate that the Tigers matched our ineptitude during that long time frame.
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What team doesn’t have let downs over the course of a season? We came out of the gates loose and played well early in the season. Guess how many times that has happened with Wedge at the helm?
If we look at the first month of each season with Wedge at the helm, here is what we see:
2003……7-20……..4th place, ahead of the 3-21 Tigers
2004……9-13……..4th place, ahead of the 7-14 Royals
2005……10-15……4th place, ahead of the 7-19 Royals
2006……13-13……3rd place, ahead of the Twins and the Royals
2007……15-8……..1st place, by a 1.5 games over the Twins and the Tigers
2008……14-15……2nd place, and pretty much tied with Twins and Tigers (really a single loss away from 4th place)
2009……10-16……dead last
Interestingly enough, Nixon played for the Indians in, you guessed it, 2007. I’m not saying that the guy amounted to as much on the field as some would’ve like, but the rest of the guys on the team sure seemed to have a lot of fun when he was in the clubhouse.
I’m also not about to argue about the difference in talent levels on these clubs. Obviously it varied. But what I am saying is this: Under Wedge, the Indians have played too f’in tight in April.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Teams play loose when they are winning. This team needs more winning.
In my opinion, the biggest contribution Trot made to the April 2007 success was posting a .375 OBP and .786 OPS.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good post. You get a whipped cream pie in the face for that one.
by MTF on Jul 30, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See. I feel better already.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Jul 30, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m willing to admit it’s overrated and I may be way off base here … I don’t want a Graffanino just to have a guy like that on the roster … that’s certainly not my contention.
And, I’m not saying you don’t trade Vic because of it.
The Rays did have a Cliff Floyd around … although, like Mooney said, I dunno if he filled that role or not. Perhaps Percival among the pitchers.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Since we’re doing IMO’s , IMO, performance speaks louder than words. I’m comfortable with Grady out there throwing his body around and playing hard every night as opposed to someone who is “vocal” yet under performing.
by Wil Cantrell on Jul 30, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I didn’t really mean it to be an IMO … I just thought it could be a point of discussion.
Leading by example is fine … I have no issue with it. If that’s the guy Grady is, I don’t see a reason to change him.
Like I said, clubhouse leadership might be bunk … just wanted to see if anyone else felt the same way.
And now, I will officially drop the subject since it seems itchy.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahh, Percival definitely had an impact. There was a huge article on it early last season.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/spring2008/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3293015
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why are leaders who lead by their actions insufficent? I can think of plenty of athlete’s who lead teams using this leadership style. Here’s one for Mario, Joe Sakic comes to mind
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
As I said above, I don’t think they necessarily are.
I guess I phrased the OP wrong … do we need a guy who’s a more verbal type leader like Vic?
Consensus here seems to be no.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This. I hear a lot of talk about how Grady isn’t vocal enough to be a leader. So what?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s one of those things statheads overlook. I’m not saying Grady needs to be that guy, but let’s not act like having some sort of “leadership” guy isn’t valuable.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You’re slightly missing my point. I think Grady and any number of guys who are quiet to the press can be perfectly good leaders. You and I don’t know how valuable Leadership by Example is compared to Leadership by Speech.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very true. And I wouldn’t factor the press into the equation.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leading by example is essential, and people who exemplify that are a great part of the leadership mix.
I do believe that you also need to have someone who is willing to get up in the face of his peers, i.e., Jhonny Peralta, and tell him to stop f’ing around and get his swing straightened out.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Heyman lists the Indians as one of the early trade deadline winners.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I personally love this deal. Ryan, I think you´re underrating Carrasco a fair bit. He´s a very good to excellent prospect and could without a doubt become a core player quite easily.
by Joe. on Jul 30, 2009 10:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The biggest knock on him I’ve seen seems to be mental makeup.
I agree that he seems to be a nice pickup.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carrasco FIP after taking into account luck and park factors: 3.45
Carrasco’s FIP by month after accounting for luck and park
April 3.12
May 3.10
June 3.90
July 3.67
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t know if Jay’s going to say anything, but I think FIP is worth a look for minor leaguers. Defense is erratic at best on less-than-exceptional playing fields.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course it is. That’s why we included it in the Annual.
I did insist that we average ERA and FIP for use in the Progress Score metric, and we used park/luck-adjusted FIP as well.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a couple of things that jumped out at me when looking at his minor-league numbers and scouting reports. He’s had trouble with command, and that really gets exploited at the major-league level. He’s also had problems with his slider – he’ll need for that to be at least a decent major-league pitcher to have success as a starter.
All that said, I think he can fit in the rotation, and quickly. But I don’t see him as a core player, like I see Matt LaPorta or Carlos Santana or even, with development, Knapp.
by Ryan on Jul 30, 2009 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
TINSTKNAPP
It’s rarely clear which pitchers slot in as core players. Laffey, if he were only healthy. Huff, if he were only good (yet). Carmona, if he were only Carmona.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
TINSTKNAPP should be green.
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe I will call him TINSKNAPP until he pitches his first major league inning.
Could you imagine if TINSKNAPP was a SHAPTBNL?
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn, there should be another T in there.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What’s really sobering about all this to me is that we’ve now given ourselves a two-year window to win before Grady hits FA after 2012. Call me chicken-littlish, but I always envisioned our next championship coming with him in center. The odds of that happening have just been greatly reduced.
by malemodel on Jul 30, 2009 10:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I beginning to think 2 years will alway be our window, unless something changes on how revenue is shared. Two year window, one year to tear it down, two years to rebuild. Fun watching kids play and develop, two years watching them win, one year crying.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That might be reality. If so, Shapiro needs to re-think his strategy of sustained competition. But the optimist in me thinks that if we can somehow get some stability in the bullpen and cope with injuries, this is a bearish assessment. The rest of the plan seems to be in place.
by malemodel on Jul 30, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would approach him again about an extension.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I was Sizemore I would want to see how the team is shaping up before even thinking about an extension.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I was the team, I would want to see how Sizemore is shaping up before even thinking about an extension. (That is, I think three years out is a bit early to be talking about a new contract. A lot can happen in that time.)
by malemodel on Jul 30, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, all his friends are gone or maybe leaving. I don’t think this is a small issue.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking about this too. Anecdotally at least, Sizemore seems like the kind of guy that values friendship with his teammates.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He can make new friends, too.
"Some days are better than others, but it's a long season."
— The Inestimable Eric Wedge
by emd2k3 on Jul 30, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or we can buy him a damn dog. I’ll gladly contribute my labrador retriever, which he can rename Phifer. Even though she’s a girl.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Things I can’t believe I know: Grady already has a dog. Her name is Carmela.
by AngG on Jul 30, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think it’s safe to say that AngG is not a 57-year-old man.
by Chemo on Jul 30, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that’s awfully presumptuous isn’t it?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 2:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s go to the mall
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, I think CC introduced him to Jorge and Andy already at that Cavs playoff game.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think it’s a small issue either. But I would assume he can make new friends.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course he can make new friends. But there was a certain aspect to the team of Grady, Peralta, Garko, Victor, CC, Lee, Betancourt, etc. All playing together for several years. I think we shouldn’t underrate this aspect of having Grady satisfied, especially when considering the potential for an extension.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think if they wanted to stick together, they shoulda goddamn won some baseball games.
by Brick. on Jul 30, 2009 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Ha, dude, your one-liners are killing me lately. Kudos.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is probably a better motivational plaque to put above the clubhouse entrance than some “Play like a champion today” ND crap.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grady sits listlessly in the locker room after a tough loss. He has one sock on and is holding the other in his hand. I just wish I had some friends, he thinks.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This makes me cry.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Jul 30, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am in the process of writing a story called “The One Where Grady Sizemore is Awesome.” Sometimes he has lunch on the moon!
by AngG on Jul 30, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry for the dupe…
After reflection and serious informing from some very good pieces by Ryan, Jay and Lastoria…
The only thing that makes sense is that they didn’t like the roster construction and that more moves are coming. Our FO has had sh_tty drafts and signed sh_tty free agents but they are very, very good at evaluating other people’s farm systems. They may therefore have placed a higher value on these prospects than the dope-noise we are hearing on the airwaves right now. My biggest other criticism has been that they, especially the Atomic Wedgie, fall in love with very average players like Blake, Carroll, Garko & Francisco. I therefore like that they have made a critical, and perhaps introspective analysis, and decided that serious re-tooling was needed. You can’t say that it isn’t ballsy.
Stuart Dean
by stuart dean on Jul 30, 2009 10:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
In reading some more about this, statements like this really bug me:
What needs to be looked at is the prospects the Indians didn’t get. Word was that in order to get Halladay, the Phillies had to give up a package centered around Kyle Drabeck and J.A. Happ, probably the Phillies’ two best young pitchers. The Indians acquired neither of these two players, and that’s why I don’t think they really made a great deal here.
This is from this article at THT, but I’ve seen the sentiment expressed elsewhere, including here. As of yet, Halladay hasn’t been traded for anyone. Halladay didn’t get those prospects and neither did Lee. There is this false equivalence in the potential between what Toronto reportedly wanted and what Cleveland actually got. If and when Halladay gets traded comparisons can be made about the perceived present value of the guys involved. But it is ridiculous to compare what we got with the perceived value of a trade that was rejected.
by APV on Jul 30, 2009 10:45 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Think what the Cardinals would demand for Pujols. We didn’t get that, either. There’s some merit in arguing about a package the Phillies offered but the Blue Jays rejected. There’s very little point to thinking about what the Blue Jays demanded but the Phillies weren’t willing to give.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except, like the Blue Jays, we could have said: “What? No Happ and Drabeck? Ok, no Lee” and we would have been fine to have a Cy Young pitcher for another year. The Blue Jays decided they were willing to “risk” keeping the Cy Young pitcher, we decided we weren’t. I believe that decision is open to criticism.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure, but that’s a different issue. We could have held out for more. But you can’t point to the rejected trade and say “See? Happ and Drabek were available.”
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you can’t say that they were available. But you can say that to get a pitcher the caliber of Halladay or Lee, you need to give up arms the quality of Happ and Drabek.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s worth noting that in Happ’s first full season in AAA (at age 24), his luck- and park-adjusted FIP (park adjustment is necessary since the Phils’ AAA affiliate that year was in Ottawa) was 4.21 with a 1.48 WHIP. Those numbers for Carrasco (at age 22) are 3.45 and 1.55. I know that you can’t necessarily translate minor league success to the majors, but it is certainly a strong possibility in a couple of years that we’ll look back and be glad we got Carrasco instead of Happ. The same statement can be made for Drabek – he’s got a 4.05 neutralized FIP at AA this year in his age 21 season, not to mention that he’s already had TJ surgery.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(And yes, I know the horse I’m beating is close to dead at this point.)
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We could say we’re fine with having a Cy Young pitcher for another year, but we weren’t. Not according to Shapiro’s presser.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How do we know that Shapiro doesn’t like Carrasco more than Drabek?
by Roger Dorn on Jul 30, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don’t. I agree that this is very plausible.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am reasonably confident this is true. And after my initial reaction, I think I do too.
Also that he preferred the upside of Knapp to the ML-readiness of Happ.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
More to the point, the Blue Jays could have demanded Pujols in a trade for Halladay.
Then, we trade Lee to the Cardinals, and everyone’s asking, “Why didn’t you get Pujols?”
That’s exactly how much sense the criticism makes.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There’s a lot of crap floating around these threads, but we’ve hit on something we can all agree on: Pujols is better than Marson.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, it is ridiculous to compare an actual trade with a rumored trade, let alone one that was rejected.
by Ryan on Jul 30, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Goes back to my unrealistic expectations post from yesterday. Totally right on about the false equivalence. If the Phils weren’t giving up those guys for Halladay they sure weren’t going to give them up for Lee.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think alot of people including myself, were pissed off at what we got, or the fact that we have tanked 2010 before it even starts? I for one have no clue if we got good value or not. But with the AL Central up for grabs every year, tanking 2010 is what kick me over the edge.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tanking 2010? Like we tanked 2009?
It’s been said a couple of times that maybe there wasn’t any money for the Tribe to pick up Lee’s option, so that would make trading him now the biggest priority. Besides, we don’t know what the team will look like next year, and because it’s such a weak division, who’s to say we can’t be in it? I understand we don’t have some of the best players we had this season for 2010, but there’s always a chance.
by JP_Frost on Jul 30, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, there is a chance, nobody in the Central looks good. I’m still a little down but come next spring I’ll be looking for us to win it all. Been doing that for over 50 years, do not see it changing.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You can’t judge a trade if you don’t know if you got good value.
Also! Better to “tank” 2010 and be really good for 2011-2014 than win the Central with 85 wins in 2010 and tank more than one season after that because all you got were draft picks for Lee.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. It’s all very speculative, and why does everyone (including me) always assume we could’ve had more or better players? It doesn’t work that way most of the time.
by JP_Frost on Jul 30, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, maybe the trade will turn out to be a bad one. Maybe not. But long-term, keeping Cliff for a 2010 run to mediocrity seems like a worse idea than a good trade.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no one at this time can tell if we got good value, this is what our FO does best, so lets hope we did.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t think it’s true that no one can tell whether we good good value. I can’t do it, but that’s not to say it can’t be done. What is true is that we can’t say whether it will go on the Wall of Awesomeness with the Colon trade. Check back in a few years for that one.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is there an audio or text version of Shapiro’s press conference available?
by ShawnK on Jul 30, 2009 10:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ryan posted this link in Jay’s thread.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 10:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does anybody else get uncomfortable with Shapiro’s comments re: Fausto? He’s managing expectations to portray Fausto as a mid-rotation starter. Gulp.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 3:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
PR is about managing expectations. If everyone expect Fausto to come back as an ace then they’ll be disappointed if he turns into a solid middle of the rotation starter. If people think Fausto is going to be a league average pitcher and he lights the world on fire its a bonus.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
big question is what happened to his 95-96 fastball, what has changed?
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah it was the specificity that gave me pause. Shapiro stated outright that Fausto does not have the skills he did in 2007.
by afh4 on Jul 30, 2009 3:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not an expert in pitch analysis. Maybe pitch f/x or one of those other fancy graphs can give us more information
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He doesn’t change speeds as well, for one thing. His fastball has lost 1 MPH, while his change up has gained almost 2. And the movement has changed on virtually all of his pitches. Check here for his full PitchFX data – it’s probably more worthwhile than me trying to list all the changes here.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s worth remembering that hitters may also have learned to wait on his sinker better than when he first came up, knowing there’s a good chance the umps will call it down (even if the umps are uniformly stupid people who all hate the Indians).
by MTF on Jul 30, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, definitely. It always worried me back in 07 that he was something of a one trick pony, and that doesn’t work as well once teams and players have time to adjust.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 5:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, he doesn’t. Maybe after he was injured?
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did Fausto ditch his split finger and add a change up to his pitches? My uneducated look at the pitching data on fangraphs tells two things. First, It looks like after 2007 Carmona stopped throwing some sort of split finger pitch and began throwing a change up. Second, Fausto’s been progressively throwing more fastballs while significantly decreasing the number of sliders he throws. In 2007 he threw his slider 12% compared to this year’s 3.8%
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I slightly misstated the first point. He always had a change it looks like so he either didn’t throw it a lot in 2007 or the data isn’t available.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s also possible that pitch f/x’s pitch identification sucks. Which it does.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
is there a better system to use?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not that I know of. Just take it all with a grain of salt. The longer back you go, the more salt you need.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let’s Go Tribe: Look Longer Back For A Good Team
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s much better this year than it used to be, but we definitely have to take the 07 data with unhealthy amounts of salt.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, he’s never had a split. Always had the change. Just consider his 2007 “split” a changeup.
by TribeJay on Jul 30, 2009 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carmona starting Friday against Edwin Jackson, says Tribeinsider.
So when do we get today’s daytime thread?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pushing Sowers back to Saturday?
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Indians site still has Sowers on Friday, Fausto on Saturday.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but Nick is correct … the Indians official tweet says its now Fausto on Friday.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I saw the tweet, too. I assume Sowers and Fausto just traded places. Fausto is Billy Ray and Jeremy is Louis Winthorpe III, obviously.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And here I was hoping for a little Mortimer Duke.
by FallsTribeFan on Jul 30, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The usual bet?
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Dukes were management. Winthorpe and Valentine were the players.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FEELING GOOD BILLY RAY
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Jul 30, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I will rec these references whenever they come up
by APV on Jul 30, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
seems like there’s less smoke on Victor… I expect him to go down to the wire.
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jul 30, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think I can get through a six-pack by 5. Unless we trade Vic to Boston before then.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so a 10 or 11 pack? sounds about right after this week.
by Brick. on Jul 30, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not trying to be sour grapes on Lee – but does anyone else think that he might not be as good in Philly? I just wonder if some of his fly ball tendencies might be accentuated thus creating problems. I think the Dodgers would’ve been a better fit and he would’ve been more successful there.
I just think it’ll be interesting to see what happens if he doesn’t live up to expectations.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 12:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There was a post last night over on The Good Phight to this effect. A lot of the advantage to hitters in Citizens Bank Park is to left handed hitters, so Cliff as a lefty pitcher shouldn’t be affected as badly as he could be. Of course, the Phillies’ lefty-dominated lineup takes full advantage of their home park, so even if Cliff does give up a few more runs, he should also have a ton more run support and should be just as effective in helping to win games.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Steve Phillips said this yesterday. I immediately went to look at his splits. As usual, Phillips is an idiot:
Year GB/FB 2005 0.55 2006 0.50 2007 0.56 2008 0.85 2009 0.79
So since Cliff became CLIFF, he’s really ratched up the GBs.
by gte619n on Jul 30, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Furthermore, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Cliffton kick the entire NL’s ass above their shoulders, CC style, posting some ridiculous ERA around 2 and generally throwing at everybody.
by gte619n on Jul 30, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FYI, the MLB average GB/FB ratio is 0.78
by gte619n on Jul 30, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That said, a lot of the reason he’s been so good over the past two years is putting up extremely low HR/FB (3.9% last year, 4.1% this year). Presumably that ratio will go up in the smaller park in Philadelphia.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ed_price Source: #BlueJays trying to get #RedSox to take Alex Rios (signed thru 2014) as part of Halladay deal
I didn’t know where to post this, but holy crap amirite? That’s a potential blockbuster.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 12:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
wasn’t it just a couple of years ago that we all wanted Alex, What ever happened to his star, to much to fast?
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Jul 30, 2009 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He’s owed about $60 million over the rest of his current contract (assuming that his $13.5m 2015 option isn’t picked up).
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Must be nice to make horrendous mistakes (JD Drew) and fix them by spending more money.
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Man, you’d think the last team Toronto wants to send Hallady to would be the Sawx.
If they pull that trade off, doesn’t that take Victor off the table for them? Boston has a very good farm system, but dealing for Halladay AND Victor would pretty much stripmine their system.
by Ryan on Jul 30, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’d think so but the conventional wisdom doesn’t always apply to big market teams. Boston has enough depth to get both players and still have a decent farm system.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And even if they don’t, so what? The other 28 major league teams are their farm system.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t forget Jamey Carroll. Since they turned down Vic for Buchholz one-for-one last week (according to the Herald), we’ll have to include someone else, and they’re looking for middle infielders. I wonder if we can do Vic/Jamey C. for Buchholz/Bard? Nah, I spose not.
by MTF on Jul 30, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carroll is not worth Bard, so if Vic’s not worth Buchholz then definitely not. If we’re sweetening the pot in a Vic deal, I bet we do it with Donald or Marson and not someone post-arbitration.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We still won’t get Buchholz and Bard for that.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We still won’t get Buchholz and Bardfor that.
There.
by junkballer on Jul 30, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I mean, I’m sure there’s a package that would get it done, but I agree, it’s not happening for anything the Indians would/should be willing to give up.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 31, 2009 3:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hate the waiting for the trade deadline. I just assume more trades are coming and I just want them made already. Do we keep Vic or not? JP? C’mon – just do it! (or not)
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 1:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I know, right? This is like pulling a band-aid off millimeter by millimeter. Can’t we just yank the thing off all at once and get it over with?
by AngG on Jul 30, 2009 1:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
arghhh-g.
sigh.
I just wanted to believe.
by mjmarble on Jul 30, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I could do with a sigh of “thank god that’s over” instead of my usual sigh of “not this nonsense again.”
by AngG on Jul 30, 2009 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lastoria alludes to some “major” moves coming in the next 24 or so hours.
by bewwolv on Jul 30, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have selfish reasons for wanting Vic to be moved today, hopefully before the evening.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 2:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My inability to be plopped down in front of a computer either later tonight or most of tomorrow.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 30, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Your own survival would dominate your thinking, for sure, making Vic’s trade fate seem inconsequential.
by MTF on Jul 30, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That could actually be a good thing.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 30, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have selfish reasons for wanting Vic to be moved today, hopefully before the evening.
ohhhhhhhhh
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, well, in the meantime, we have 2.5 outfielders on the 25 man.
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
CHRIS GIMINEZ FAN CLUB THROWS PLAYING TIME PARTY
by fleerdon on Jul 30, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we hadn’t traded Garko, we’d have 2.50000000000001.
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think Jhonny stays, for at least two reasons: a) his value is fairly low right now, and figures to be higher next season, and b) they need to figure out what they have in Marte the hitter before relying on him as their 3B going forward. If Jhonny has a good first half next year and the Indians overall don’t, he could get moved then. It’s possible he could be moved in the offseason if Marte really does well in August and September, though my guess is they’d wait until mid 2010 — he’s not making that much next year (about $4.5M), so holding onto him for a deadline deal is likely worth the improvement in return (besides which, if the Indians happen to be contending, he’d be useful down the stretch).
Wthout knowing what Marte is going to be, trading Jhonny now (for less than his real value) would not only be damaging for 2010, but also for 2011.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
me too, especially before the Red Sox possibly trade for Halladay and we can’t make a deal with them anymore. As much as I’d hate to see Victor play for Boston, they do match up quite well with Shapiro’s wants. There’s always the Rays, but most reports (for what it’s worth) seem to indicate that they might hold off on a blockbuster trade.
by JP_Frost on Jul 30, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Willingham was scratched from his start today. Washington said it was because of a stiff neck, though.
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
latest rumor on a potential Halladay trade:
One source with knowledge of the Blue Jays’ thinking predicted that the Dodgers could “catch their attention” with an offer that included third baseman Josh Bell, shortstop Devaris Gordon and hard-throwing pitching prospects from among the group of Josh Lindblom, Ethan Martin and Nathan Eovaldi.
I don’t know a whole lot about some of those prospects, but I know it’s not a very impressive package in terms of other names that have been thrown around. It does have a ton of upside though.
by JP_Frost on Jul 30, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Looks like Sherrill to the Dodgers
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can’t access the link. Any talk about where they will use him? (setup or close?)
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can’t imagine they’ll drop Broxton for him, so almost certainly setup.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No details yet
. Ed Price of AOL fanhouse is still trying to confirm. So we don’t know who they gave up or how they’ll use him if this is true
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gordon Edes says it’s Sherrill for Elbert and Josh Bell, and that Sherrill will be the setup man for Broxton.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow, good pick up for the O’s
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They also got RHP Steve Johnson
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, that report says they didn’t get Elbert. So who knows.
by malexander on Jul 30, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They say it’s for Josh Bell and Steve Johnson.
by JP_Frost on Jul 30, 2009 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no rumors at all? what gives?
I guess people are taking a break after yesterday’s hysteria.
by JP_Frost on Jul 30, 2009 4:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
There’s been some chatter about Heath Bell. Also, there’s a rumor that individual boxes of Back to Nature mac & cheese are on sale at Whole Foods for $1 (these are the things you find out if you search Twitter for “rumor”).
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just am so not into Heath Bell, a guy who has spent his entire career in the NL and wasn’t consistently good until he got to Petco. Gonzalez…now there’s a guy I would love to have.
by MTF on Jul 30, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was reffering to Victor trade talk.
I want the Rays to swoop in and make us a tremendous offer (Davis, Hellickson, Barnese for example) and get Victor, so they can beat Boston and NY. NOW!!!
by JP_Frost on Jul 30, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beginning to think we hang onto him until the winter meetings.
by cheech99 on Jul 30, 2009 5:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we don’t trade him now, I bet we hang onto him ‘til the deadline next season. It’s a few million, but the return is probably better, and there’s always the off chance we can contend with him.
by Logodaedalus on Jul 30, 2009 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In baseball, teams generally turn over gradually through attrition, free agency, and trade, so there’s often no clear line of demarcation between eras of a franchise, but this week seems as definitive a boundary as the 2002 Bartolo Colon trade was. In a neat bit of coincidence, Cliff Lee was involved in both the beginning and end of that era. In 2002, Cliff was one of the three then unknown prospects received for who was then one of the best pitchers in baseball. It’s taken eight years and a few detours, but now Cliff Lee is one of the elite pitchers in the game, and taking his place are four unknowns that will hopefully be part of the next good Indians team.
It’s hard for me to buy in to that conclusion. I don’t see the Cliff Lee trade as a change in era. He was not part of the best season of the era (2007), and the key components (less CC) are still on the team. Look up the middle of the diamond: Victor, Asdrubal, Johnny (OK, he’s moved to 3rd, but he is still on the team), and Grady. Throw in Hafner, and this team still has a solid core from the past 5 years. (I said “solid” in terms of continuity, not performance or ability)
Heck, compare the team continuity we have now with the continuity in the 1990s – those teams to remade themselves every couple years. Of course, those changes were acquiring top-flight ML talent through FA and deadline deals. But, again, that era ended with the Colon trade (we officially ended the “win-now” approach and fully committed to the “Win-when-we-get-a-chance” approach (with the emphasis on increasing our chances over multiple years). Aren’t we still in the era?
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 30, 2009 5:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I guess. But right now we are sans Garko, Lee, Betancourt, and Sabathia. Those are four pretty major parts to the 03-09 run. Now, we are all but assuming Victor is gone and Peralta may not be more than 1/2 year behind. And it seems like 2010 might be the season with the lowest expectations since 2004.
Yesterday’s trade might not have been quite the era-changer that the Colon deal was, but we are in the middle of a 1.5 year total rebuild, if you haven’t noticed.
by Ryan Kelsey on Jul 30, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s hard to see this as a total rebuild. There are still quality ballplayers in the everyday lineup and I don’t expect this team to be in the cellar next season. It’s reasonable to believe the team can be .500 next season. A total rebuild for a small-market team means we are fielding several stopgap players who will not stick with the club and complete non-competitiveness (at least to me).
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 30, 2009 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I was saying was that trading Lee crossed the figurative Rubicon. With Lee and Martinez, you could make a flimsy but plausible argument that the Indians could make a run in 2010. But without them, you’ve committed to at least one noncompetitive season, and the ending of a competitive cycle. That’s what the Colon trade did, and that’s what yesterday’s deal signifies.
by Ryan on Jul 30, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I’m not willing to concede our competitiveness so quickly (even if Shapiro and the front office are). It would take exceptional years from quite a few young guys, but…it is hard to see Detroit getting much other than older. Minnesota always seems marginally competitive and Kenny Williams seems to make annoyingly good moves now and then. But no one is great. It’d be hard to argue we were better than 4th or 5th in the East, but in the Central…
by APV on Jul 30, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.letsgotribe.com/2009/2/18/763287/detroit-tigers-preview
The Tigers’ offseason looks to be pretty much finished, so here goes. Last season, they finished last in the division with a record of 74-88. Their pythag record was 78-84 and this season, PECOTA projects them to finish 3rd with a record of 77-85.
And yet, we find the Tigers at the top of the standings, with the consensus (at least from the roundtable discussion) that Detroit will take the division. I don’t know how anyone following the AL Central can say we are committed to a non-competitive season in 2010. Flimsy? Sure – but the division is flimsy. Plausable? Definitely.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 30, 2009 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the Indians get lucky they have a 2005-type season. Not 90+ wins, but enough to be in contention (say four or fewer games out on September 1). Sad how not a word is said about the Royals.
by odradek on Jul 30, 2009 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So wait… Lee vs. Lincecum Saturday night?
[deleted, profanity]
by westbrook on Jul 30, 2009 5:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Zolecki says tomorrow night, against the immortal Ryan Sadowski.
Sadowski sports a 4.81 ERA, which is, of course, IN
by FredOx on Jul 30, 2009 6:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SUCKAS
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the N and L should be separated.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 31, 2009 4:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs