A roundup of reactions to the Cliff Lee trade.
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 11:07 AM EDT
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if you feel like punishing yourself, here is a collection of opinion articles on the trade.
Columbus Dispatch writer Rob Oller laments this deal as a familiar sight for long-time fans.
Bill Livingston continues to steal money from his employers.
Shedon Ocker (A-B Journal) says this could go down as the most unpopular trade in Cleveland history.
Gammons looks at the reality mid-market teams face when they have losing seasons. (ESPN insider required)
LeBrownstown blogger blames Shapiro and his lack of drafting quality talent.
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The more I think about it, the more I wish the Indians would have held onto Lee for next year. If they aren’t in contention in 2010, they could still trade him.
That’s the catch-22 though. If you don’t think you are a contending team then you run the risk of Cliff: 1) getting hurt 2) underperforming or 3) the crappy team hurting his value (poor defense, no run support, poor bullpen).
Not to mention that the market value of Cliff might be even less next year if the contending teams have worse farm systems or if there is a glut of pitchers comparable to Lee available.
by Toxicadam on Jul 30, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I understand all that and I think there is definitely some risk that Lee will revert to sucking at some point. However, since the the prospects in this trade don’t seem to have a lot to offer in 2010, it makes thinking about next year painful. That’s the sucky part of this trade.
But, in the end, Shapiro probably did the right thing by trading Lee now. Even if it was a year early, it’s better now than a year late.
Aside from the aesthetic pleasure of watching him pitch, Lee wouldn’t have made 2010 less painful.
It seems odd to say that three ML ready players won’t have anything to offer next year. They might having growing pains but its safe to assume, minus unforeseen roster moves, that all three AAA prospects will contribute in 2010.
If you don’t think your team can compete as currently constructed why would you pay Lee $5 mil, half a season’s salary, when you could trade him at peak value and integrate your prospects into the system a full year earlier? Under the current time line all of the prospect we got in this trade will be in a position to be key contributors in 2011 with the rest of our amazing prospects.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Aside from the aesthetic pleasure of watching him pitch, Lee wouldn’t have made 2010 less painful.
I don’t see how this is true. Having Lee in 2010 would be much better than not having Lee in 2010.
Look, this is ridiculous. You can’t argue that having Lee around helped win games in 2008-2009 and he would probably help win games in 2010. I’m not saying having Lee would automatically win the Indians the pennant in 2010, but he would definitely help. Probably more than Carrasco.
Like I’ve stated, I understand the trade, it doesn’t mean I like it.
Nobody likes it.
Nobody wants to watch a season where every 5th day an elite pitcher isn’t on the hump. Yes, an 80+ win season is much more enjoyable than a 70+ win season to us fans. But in the end, they are the same.
But you have to divorce yourself from your self-interests and look to the organization as a whole going forward. The risk outweighed the reward for letting Cliff pitch 25+ meaningless games in a Tribe uniform.
There’s also the fact that prospects take time to develop. It’s a generalization, but in trading Lee you get AAA guys that hopefully will be hitting their stride in 2011 (plus Knapp, but I’m not going to try to put a timetable on him). If you trade Lee later, and get the same caliber of player, then you’re waiting till 2012. If you don’t think you’re going to compete in 2010 anyway, you might as well speed up the rebuild.
Yep. Plus, say you exercise Cliff’s option, thus severely limiting you ability to do other stuff. Really important stuff like extending the contracts of post-2011 core guys. Have you made this a 96 win team or an 85 win team? What if at the trade deadline, you’re on pace to win 84 games but have a one game lead in the Central? Do you trade Cliff then?
What if at the trade deadline, you’re on pace to win 84 games but have a one game lead in the Central? Do you trade Cliff then?
Who knows? But I think it would have been fun to find out.
See, I don’t think that would be as fun as winning 70 games next year and kicking the AL’s collective butts in 2011 and 2012. Unless we luck into a title, Cardinals-style, but I don’t think you can count on everybody being as bad at defense as the Tigers were.
Of course it wouldn’t be as fun as winning 70 games next year and kicking the AL’s ass in 2011. But this isn’t a either / or proposition.
Just because I don’t like the trade doesn’t mean that I don’t understand the move. Shapiro came to the conclusion that the Indians weren’t going to contend in 2010 with or without Lee. I understand it, I just don’t like it.
And I would love to “luck” into a title.
Of course it wouldn’t be as fun as winning 70 games next year and kicking the AL’s ass in 2011. But this isn’t a either / or proposition.
Yes it is.
Our ability to compete in 2011 decidedly goes up with the infusion of these prospects into the system. And this is before the Victor trade
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
No it isn’t. Yes, our ability to compete in 2011 goes up by getting prospects, but it isn’t necessarily true that the Indians couldn’t compete in both 2010 and 2011.
Boosting our ability to compete in 2011 and beyond and not boosting it is the either/or.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
We Don't Have A Good Farm System!
When Shapiro and Wedge are summarily dismissed, hopefully at the end of this year, there must be a top priority given to our own farm system!
The Tribe needs an outstanding Director of Player Personnel who has a proven track record of drafting correctly, nurturing the key core minor-league players without selling the farm.
I don’t think the Tribe will be a force until at least 2012.
In the meantime, I’ve been a TRIBE fan since ‘48, and its time to move on to a team who loves to win and be competitive, like former owner Jacobs was! With “TINKER-DOLAN,” (tinker is an Irish term for one who pawns his suit and shoes after Mass and picks them back up the following Saturday) nothing will happen as long as he’s on watch…
I think I’m aligning myself w/the ANGELS. Sad commentary, isn’t it?
terence sutherland
Bronx, NY
We don’t have a good farm system?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Aug 1, 2009 1:41 AM EDT up reply actions
there must be a top priority given to our own farm system
Ummm, what do you think we’ve been doing the past two weeks?
Sad commentary, isn’t it?
You clearly have either the world’s best sense of ironic humor or absolutely no feel at all.
The post is incomprehensible, but let’s not hold simply living in the Bronx against anyone. He didn’t mention the Yankees.
by Logodaedalus on Aug 2, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Though the Angels comment is exceedingly strange.
by Logodaedalus on Aug 2, 2009 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is better: Randomly CAPITALIZING entire words, or using a nickname that needs two lines to explain?
Steel Nick
The random capitalization really bugs me. Makes people sound unstable.
When emphasis is genuinely useful… italics are your friend, people!
Is this a Letter to the Editor?
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 3, 2009 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
The most unpopular trade in Cleveland history? Did any of these morons even know who Cliff lee was before he won the Cy?
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
I’ll never forget when he dropped The People’s Elbow on Bill Skowron in 1958.
by Chemo on Jul 30, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Who cares if they did? They knew who he was last year and they know who he is now. That this is an unpopular trade shouldn’t be surprising.
The Colon trade was an unpopular trade. So was the Sabathia trade. Cleveland.com was full of people ripping Shapiro for the Blake and DeRosa trades, too. I’m not surprised that fans are bitching about it. I also don’t care.
And the Colavito trade was way more unpopular – I doubt the equivalent of Terry Pluto will write a book about the Curse of Cliff Lee.
The most unpopular trade in Cleveland history?
One of the reasons this is a dumb statement is that whenever Vic gets traded, that will produce an order of magnitude more unhappiness because even more than Lee, there will be no way we get in return for Vic what most Cleveland fans think he is worth. Not even close.
I’d be surprised if we actually do get what he’s worth in return, all cleveland.communism aside.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow,ifwhen Victor gets traded, lookout!
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions
It would have been nice if one of the local guys said, “You know what? I know that public sentiment is going to be against this, but I am going to write a piece in favor of it.”
Isn’t that what a good opinion writer should do? Especially in a medium that is desperate for attention.
I think all these rants have one unspoken thing in common, and that is frustration that the 2002 rebuild “didn’t pay off” or “didn’t work”. That’s the emotional basis for these sorts of analyses if you ask me. Losing Cliff is frustrating, sure, as is the terrible slow motion torture of the 2009 season. It hurts most to think we might have to rebuild, again.
But we won’t, and I think there are obviously more moves coming. Shapiro seems to hope he can actually improve our chances to compete in 2010. I really hope he’s correct. Picking up a better starter would help me get there, either in trade or over the winter.
We went to the ALCS and were one game from winning it. I’d say the rebuild worked. A run like that is all that most mid-market teams may every get in the new economic reality. We were spoiled by the 90s and it’s time we got over it.
I’d say that Shapiro clearly has realized that this rebuild was derailed by historically bad bullpens and is stocking power arms to make sure the next one is not.
"Gravity is a harsh mistress." - The Tick
by woodsmeister on Jul 30, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I really don’t think this is a rebuild. I think its an on-the-fly restock. 2002 changed the way the Indians did baseball. 2009 saw us refreshing our pen and rotation. This is not a full-scale rebuild; I think this is more of a reload.
My foolproof plan for returning to the glory days:
- Move the Browns to Boise. They can play on that blue field.
- Cut LeBron and Shaq.
- Tear down Progressive Field and build a new stadium. Call it the Jake again.
- Blow up the YES Network.
- Improve the economy.
- Profit.
7. Sign Omar
8. Trade for Manny and Thome
9. Find someone named Dick Jacobs and force him to buy the team
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 30, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
well then, you agree with me- those pouring out angst, whether it’s because they’re too worried about being the farm team for the Phillies or because they think the 2002 rebuild failed should just calm down. I’d like think Shapiro believes he’s trading up to a better 2010 team with these moves, instead of trying to replentish a completely depleted farm system.
I saw the common thread as the Indians are heading towards a 70’s-style management where every single player of value will be traded and nothing they get back in return will come close to matching it. Which is completely false and lazy, but that’s sports writing for you.
As far as contending next year, I would love for Shapiro to take a few of our shiny toys and get an established setup man. I panned it at first, but I like what Kenny Williams did in getting Linebrink to compliment Jenks in Chicago. It was a big reason why they won the division last year.
The Padres are fielding all sorts of calls on Heath Bell. Of the dozen or so interested, the Marlins have probably been the most aggressive.
Any chance that could be C Perez with some fine tuning between now and then?
by MooneysRebellion on Jul 30, 2009 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I sent Rob Oller an email about his article. I was so upset when I read the first two paragraphs and saw him implying this trade was going to take the Indians back to the 70’s and decades of failure. I told him it’s his job as a sportswriter to educate the fans but he’s just feeding all the idiots. With Shapiro’s trade history you have to trust that he’s getting great players in return. I don’t get it — do fans forget the Colon trade? Now, I know this trade won’t be that successful, but fans thought the Indians were giving up for decades by making that trade and it worked out pretty well. Now, a few years later, we’re hearing the same claims once again.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 30, 2009 1:36 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Haha. He wrote back to ask if I was on Shapiro’s payroll.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 30, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
wow
Was that the extent of his response or was he joking?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 30, 2009 7:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think he was joking. Here’s what he wrote back:
Brad…
1. I didn’t say the trade would bring back the 70s. I wrote that fans are worried it will.
2. You sound like you’re on Shapiro’s payroll.
3. The only number that matters: 1 = playoff appearances since 2002.
thanks for writing,
ro
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 30, 2009 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions
My god this rules
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Kind of a douchey answer. But in the future you probably shouldn’t share his e-mail response with you unless it’s like an 8.5 P.
Steel Nick
Eh
He shouldn’t be a douche. Besides its not like there’s confidential info in the email
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jul 31, 2009 5:44 AM EDT up reply actions
OK I think we have to make a decision on the symbol for a Pedroia unit. Just “P” is a bit to simple and could be confusing. Can’t use “PED” for obvious reasons. ANy other possibilities?
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2009 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions
This is what annoys me about the media. They act like they aren’t playing a part in this and they are just writing what the fans are saying. It may be true that some or most of the fans are worrying about a return to the 1970s and it’s articles like this that help point them to that conclusion.
A real journalist would write a thoughtful article on the trade so that more people can understand why the trade was made, etc.
This is true for politics as well.
A real journalist would write a thoughtful article on the trade so that more people can understand why the trade was made, etc.
I’d modify this a little. This implies that the journalist has to accept that the trade was wise and can be explained (which in this case, I think is actually true). But, there are trades that get made that can be criticized quite legitimately; Kazmir to the Rays, for example. A journalist’s job is to analyze the trade and the underlying reasons for it and to offer intelligent commentary, either positive or critical, as appropriate.
What I find objectionable about the way local sportswriters are covering the situation is that it seems to be based almost entirely on their view that Dolan/Shapiro/Wedge regime has failed and will continue to do so because they can’t/won’t hang on to their best players. I think it’s reasonable to say that they’ve failed to build a championship team and to raise questions about whether they can do so in the future. But, there’s no basis at all for saying that trading good players for prospects is WHY they’ve failed. If anything, the opposite is true — the “big” trades have succeeded; the big contracts (Westbrook, Hafner, Wood) have failed.
I’m not saying a journalist has to accept the trade as wise. I don’t know if I think it was a wise move. I think a writer should explain the reasoning behind the trade, not just parroting talk radio callers or giving the company line, but try to inform the readers about it.
Instead we get boilerplate BS narrative stuff.
If a writer discusses this trade without covering the underlying economics of baseball, then they haven’t done their job, no matter how well they assess the pieces being exchanged. They don’t necessarily have to do it every time, but the big fat media contracts that the big market clubs have that the Indians do not is just as important as Jason Knapp’s fastball (or Victor’s red eyes).
I think I can support this view.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 1, 2009 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I should have responded “No, I’m not on his payroll — I work for free.”
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 30, 2009 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not too late
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
We just exchanged another round of emails and he was very cool the second time around. So give him some points for that.
Yeah, same here. I suppose he’s used to getting emails from idiots all day and only gets in real discussions once he sees that he’s talking to a reasonable person.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 30, 2009 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I now hate myself for actually having read that.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
So let’s say you’re going to start a stupid petition for stupid people, ergo:
Remember the 90’s when Mr. Jacobs haad his boys giving all of Cleveland lasting memories and a headache trying to find tickets. Those years are gone and as the Dolan regime steps in it seems as if a fire sale as occurred every year ripping off the fans and season ticket holders of Clevelands’ baseball franchise. By singing this petition you agree that Commissioner of Baseball force Larry Dolan to sell the franchise to a buyer more suitable for building a winning franchise that will keep our Indians in ClevelandYou probably want to spell tribe right in your URL.
He doesn’t even tell us what key we’re supposed to sing it in
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 30, 2009 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don’t know what bothers me more, the two a’s in haad or the misplaced apostrophe.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 30, 2009 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t fool yourself, this club – like the Browns – could be outta town in a heartbeat. If properly motivated, Dolan would find a way to break the lease. Bankruptcy, anyone?
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Modell had hinted around. At this point, there is literally no indication the Indians are even pondering it.
Who was the last baseball team to relocate, besides the Nats?
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Aug 3, 2009 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
The Senators moving to Texas to become the Rangers, in 1972. After the original Orioles moved to NY to become the Highlanders (and later the Evil Empire) in 1903, baseball went 50 years without a relocation. Then from 1953-1972, there were 10 relocations. The Braves and A’s each moved twice. We’re now in a stable period again, as only the hapless Montreal/San Juan Expos have moved over the last 37 years.
Interestingly, baseball relocations seem to affect the same franchises repeatedly. The Brewers begat the St. Louis Browns begat the Orioles. The Senators moved to Minnesota, leading baseball to give DC a new team, also called the Senators, who moved to Texas, opening the DC market for the Expos. The Brewers ended up in Baltimore by way of St. Louis, replacing the original Orioles, who became the Jackasses. The current Brewers started as the Seattle Pilots, who were only in Seattle for a single season.
This is nothing compared to sports like basketball – the Hawks have been in Buffalo, Moline, Milwaukee, St. Louis and Atlanta.
by FredOx on Aug 3, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well then I guess there’s only one thing left to do. Win the whole ******* thing.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Aug 3, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Gammons quote says it all:
…when the Cubs moved into a first-place tie Wednesday afternoon, it meant that every one of the teams with the highest payroll in its division was in first place
PARITY
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jul 31, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
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