Too Soon, the Victor Martinez Era Ends
by Jay on Aug 1, 2009 11:43 PM EDT
in History
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PrintIn case anyone is having trouble understanding the deep sobbing of Indians fans over the departure of Victor Martinez, here are a few of the things that Martinez represented and embodied in his time here: Hope and faith. Great hitting, situational and otherwise. A new beginning. A slugging, switch-hitting catcher, the kind of player you build a team around. Leadership in the clubhouse and on the field. The possibility of a small-market club getting over on big-market clubs. Genuine devotion to his team.
Victor Martinez was the total package; he was family. An era in Cleveland Indians history ended this week, and though it featured a half-dozen major stars, this era belonged to Victor Martinez. He authored the greatest season ever by an Indians catcher in 2007. In fact, he owns three of the five best seasons by an Indians catcher, and this year, he was on his way to notching a fifth entry in the top 10. He is the greatest catcher in franchise history — this cannot be disputed with any seriousness, and in fact, with all due respect to Alomar and O'Neill and everyone in between, there isn't even a close second.
It is a cruel world in which the Indians do everything right with a player, and the player does everything right for the Indians, yet he's still out the door after just six short years in the majors. Until the past week, few dared to see this move coming. This love affair — among team, player, city and fans — was going to end someday, but we assumed we had another year and a half at the very least. In our hearts, if not in our brains, we all wanted it to last much longer.
It is, simply, too soon.
In June 1996, the Indians drafted Paul Rigdon, Sean DePaula, John McDonald, Mike Bacsik, and David Riske, among many others. In July 1996, they signed 16-year-old switch-hitting shortstop Victor Martinez out of Cuidad Bolivar, Venezuela. It was a sign of the times; Latin American signings loomed large over draft picks in this era across baseball, and especialy for the Indians. In an alternate universe, Martinez became the slowest-running shortstop in big-league history. One suspects the Indians never worried about whether Martinez would hit enough to be a middle infielder, but rather, they saw a player whose unique physical gifts and raw intelligence could make him an outstanding catcher. Martinez had that knack for getting good wood, certainly, but he was also a fascinating athletic specimen who not only could switch-hit but also switch-throw, as he often shagged balls in the outfield and threw them back in left-handed.
Martinez looked like a good prospect when he debuted with the short-season Scrappers in 1999, but he really opened eyes in 2001, when he emerged as the Carolina League's best player at age 22, posting an 882 OPS, and he was also voted the league's best defensive catcher by opposing coaches and managers. He followed that up with a jaw-dropping season for the Aeros in 2002, during which he lead the Eastern League in OPS by over 100 points.
There is a generation of Indians fans who more or less discovered the minor leagues in 2002. Information about baseball (and especially about sabermetrics) exploded on the Internet through the late '90s, as the Indians dominated their division and made multiple postseason appearances. As the decade drew to a close, the Indians farm system was so bad that it was becoming a punchline within the industry, but we knew nothing about that. As John Hart planned his timely exit, the Dolan family okayed one last glorious charge for the Jacobs Era Indians, deficit spending to one more division title in 2001. After one more first-round exit for the Vizquel-Thome cohort, changes would have to be made, as the old talent got older while the young talent simply wasn't there.
By the time the Indians traded Robbie Alomar to the Mets in December 2001, Baseball America had started to provide significant content online, including their constantly cited rankings — rankings by organization, rankings by position, rankings by league — you name it, they had a ranking for it — which gave us some kind of concrete sense of how valuable guys like Alex Escobar and Billy Traber were. The Baseball Cube had increasingly complete minor league stats for prior seasons. And while milb.com wasn't yet up and running, most minor league clubs had their own websites, where fans around the world could go to check the box scores and track the progress of special prospects, the guys we hoped would be our future stars.
So when the Indians made The Trade on June 29, 2002, we all scurried to BaseballAmerica.com to find out how Brandon Phillips and Cliff Lee measured up (and oh, yeah, might have glanced at that other guy, too, but only for a second), and in the weeks that followed, we got in the habit of looking at those Bisons and Aeros box scores every day. The season was in shambles, but unlike the fans of a decade earlier, we were conditioned to believe that another great era could be just around the corner. So every morning we just had to know, how are our future Belle-Baerga-Loftons doing today?
Much to our surprise, the most impressive player we found in those box scores was not a new acquisition, but rather a shockingly impressive prospect named Victor Martinez. This switch-hitting catcher was — by far — the best hitter in his league. Not super-young, but young enough. A slugging catcher, and rated as a good-to-great defender to boot, Victor Martinez was too good to be true. It turned out that the farm system hadn't been completely devoid of talent. We had at least one home-grown gem, one guy worth believing in. More than any other one player — and notably more than Escobar, Phillips or Lee — Martinez put up the numbers in 2002 that told us that another Era of Champions was not only possible, but worth getting excited about.
I mean, it was a 993 OPS! By a catcher! Are you kidding me? Obviously we were going to have another Great Team, because what better way to start building a Great Team than by grooming a slugging catcher?
One thing you can say about Victor's career in the majors — and perhaps the key to why he is so beloved — is that he never once disappointed in his six years with the club. Oh, sure, he spent some time on the DL, including the bulk of 2008, and he had his deep slumps, but those never lasted more than a month or so. In his first full season, he overcame a slow start in the first 10 games to post a 1015 OPS over the next 60, earning his first All-Star appearance in the process. He shattered the club record for RBI by a catcher with 101, and perhaps most surprising, he settled in as the club's cleanup hitter. More than that, he emerged incredibly quickly as the glue that made a group of players feel like a winning team. He played with passion, joy and persistence, always smiling or shouting, and he famously had a different handshake for every single player in the clubhouse. By the middle of that first full season, he was as close to a team captain as the Indians would have this decade.
He was rewarded the following April with a five-year guaranteed deal, locking in his services through the 2010 season — and clearly, we all felt, this was more than enough time for us to reap the rewards of his superstardom. Before Grady Sizemore had even won a starting job with the Indians, Martinez was already locked in — on the field and off, in the box scores and under contract — as the cornerstone of the new-look Indians. That year, Martinez went on to be the key player in an improbable 67-34 surge that took the team to the brink of the postseason, posting an OPS of 900 in June, 916 in July, 1058 in August, 925 in September — and yes, a 902 OPS in that final, horrendous week.
In 2007, Martinez again took center stage as the MVP of one of the best teams in the majors. Best player, you ask skeptically, on a team with two legit Cy Young candidates? Yes, Victor was that squad's MVP — in part because he called 63 of the 67 games those two Cy contenders started, in part because he started a staggering 142 games at catcher that season, in part because he handled a shakey relief corps and helped them get the job done far more often than they should have been able to, and last but not least, because he was simply the best hitter on that team. (Go ahead, look it up.)
Fans of all generations remember that 2007 squad as their favorite Indians team ever. The season ended in disappointment, as 61 out of the last 61 have, but that team delivered dozens of great moments, and through it all, we had the persistent sense that this wasn't just a great group of ballplayers, but a group of great guys as well. We've heard from Shapiro so often — admittedly, too often — that the Indians aspired not just to win a championship, but to win with a certain kind of player, with a certain kind of person. Victor was everything Shapiro ever wanted a Cleveland Indian to be — not only a stellar performer but also a great teammate, devoted to his family at home and his family at the ballpark. The pain in both men's voices spoke volumes this week. Not only is this not what the fans wanted, it isn't what either one of them wanted. What they wanted was a championship not just for the Indians, and not just for Victor Martinez, but for the Victor Martinez Indians. Our favorites.
They came close. That era is done now. It ended quickly and harshly this week, the moment Cliff Lee was traded, the moment the Indians started focusing on a season beyond Victor's contract, which almost certainly, prudently, meant a season beyond when Victor could be a star player on a small-market club competing for a championship. He was our best and greatest hope in 2002, the leader of our revival in 2004 and 2005, and the best player on our favorite team in 2007. It ended far too soon.
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The best write up you have ever done, thanks.
Fan in Texas
by fanintexas on Aug 1, 2009 4:36 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I don’t want them to know and I want Victor to openly blast the Red Sox. He won’t, because he’s too professional and too good a human being, but damnit I hope he will!
This. I hate them more than I hate the Yankees right now and I can’t see that changing anytime soon. The Yankees bought CC, but he, though admittedly ours, was not ours, and I think we all knew that. Victor was our player, he was the heartbeat of an entire organization and the Red Sox took that from us. They stole just as assuredly as anyone has ever taken anything that wasn’t rightfully theirs. Maybe the Yankees are the jackasses, maybe they are the Evil Empire, but I viscerally hate the Red Sox right now. I loathe them and their pink hatted, sycophantic, arrogant fans. They have something that is ours and it is never coming back. I hate them forever for that.
by Brad D on Aug 1, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Maybe he can humanize the rest of those wannabe jackasses.
One can always hope for impossible things.
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Force quit and move to trash.
After sweeping to a World Series victory, the 2009 Boston Red Sox scurry off the field at the end of Game 4, led by Victor Martinez. They spend the night talking to reporters about how guilty and ashamed they feel about the monetary advantage that made their season possible. Victor announces to the media that every member of the team has agreed to donate their Series shares to charity.
by Voltaire on Aug 1, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I made the mistake of reading Over The Monster’s take on the trade and wound up shouting WELL IF YOU DON’T WANT HIM, WE’LL TAKE HIM BACK THEN >:( at the computer.
haha that was my reaction reading over the monster as well
we lost the heart and soul of our organization. in a matter of days, we went from thinking we’d just try again with this group in 2010 to having the core of our current team gutted and shipped off. we had to say goodbye to the figurehead not only of the current team, but of the last seven years of cleveland indians baseball. grady might be the face of the franchise, but every fan knows that victor was the engine, the glue, the. . . well, you know (enough bad metaphors for one day).
they were just disappointed they didn’t get adrian gonzales instead.
eff them.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Aug 2, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Also! Facebook wall post from a former friend:
The Red Sox are awesome, and nowhere near as bad as the Yankees. Thanks, Cleveland fire sale! Progressive Field will be a morgue the rest of the year.This from someone I went to at least a dozen games with at old Municipal Stadium. Granted, he was a Sox fan even then, but still. I regret not gloating in 1986.
This should teach you – Sox fans and Yankee fans have a crippling personality disorder. For the sake of your sanity, never date them or make friends with them.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
They came close. That era is done now. It ended quickly and harshly this week, the moment Cliff Lee was traded, the moment the Indians started focusing on a season beyond Victor’s contract, which almost certainly, prudently, meant a season beyond when Victor could be a star player on a small-market club competing for a championship. He was our best and greatest hope in 2002, the leader of our revival in 2004 and 2005, and the best player on our favorite team in 2007. It ended far too soon.
Farewell, Victor.
It’s time for the Shapiro Indians, Phase II. But I’m not ready to move on.
Jay, I love your subtle, but not too subtle reference to Carlos Santana. Skills-wise, he’s a Victor clone (maybe even better), and if he can also follow in Victor’s footsteps in the leadership, heart and geniune joy for the game department, sunnier days are ahead.
Great article, Jay! Love it.
by JP_Frost on Aug 1, 2009 4:56 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Thank you. I have to tell you, I didn’t think of Santana once while writing this. I was just recalling the way I felt about Victor in 2002 and 2003. I guess that makes it even better, though, right?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 1, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, it does actually. Maybe it’s just me and my borderline gay mancrush on Carlos Santana. Even when I do groceries and something is on discount, I think it’s due to Santana’s awesomeness.
by JP_Frost on Aug 1, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m okay with that.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 1, 2009 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I almost threw my laptop out the window when someone in another thread was complaining about Santana. It’s small comfort right now, but Santana’s and Martinez’s age 23 seasons (both spent in Akron) are remarkably similar. Vic had a higher OBP and OPS, but Santana will have more HR (he has almost as many as Vic did for the whole season, in 125 fewer PA).
Batting average. Explains 90% of all perplexing opinions ever expressed about a baseball player.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 1, 2009 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, wow. No surprise, I guess, if I’d thought about it. I feel so bad for people who don’t get it. My dad is heading that direction, but I feel like I’ve thrown him enough of a life preserver he’s holding on. Nonetheless, hopefully they can reward the ignorant and the old timers who just want a winner.
Oh man. Just when I thought I’d gotten it all out of me last night you have to go and put this up. Have you no sense of decency, sir?
Thanks, Jay. Great work, as always.
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Force quit and move to trash.
Sorry. This is not only for us but also for fans of other clubs, who might not understand why Victor mattered so much.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 1, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So Hemingway-ish. It was the best of times, it was the worst of times (or is it the other way around). Thanx again Jay for your great send off of our modern day hero, Victor Martinez.
Dickensian, even. Context is all. Thank you, Jay.
by ken from alexandria on Aug 1, 2009 6:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The quality and quantity of material the past few days has been stunning. I’ve been spending so much time here that my wife is contemplating an intervention. Thanks as always for making me think and, in the last 24 hours, helping me nurse my wounds. I saw a lot of Vic in 2002 including the AA all star game up in CT. I knew then that something positive was brewing and that Vic would be its avatar.
Stuart Dean
by stuart dean on Aug 1, 2009 5:50 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I wasn’t real emotional of losing Victor until I started going through the photo thread. He’s a remarkable talent and a joy to watch.
I don’t think I respected him enough when he was here and I’m sorry it took until he was gone for me to realize it.
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Thanks Jay. LGT has been a very, very comforting place to be for the last few years. No more so than this. I for one will detach and root for Vic and Cliffy, even Ben and Ryan, this year. But only for so long, and only secondarily to rooting for this Indians team, in which I trust to provide an entertaining 2009 and 2010. I’ve pretty much ignored CC this year, somehow. I hope the Red Sox don’t do to Vic what the Yanks did to CC.
LGT! Vic would have wanted nothing more than to put the fear of God into the AL Central this year, ala 2005.
This is fantastic, Jay. A classy and thoughtful tribute to a classy and thoughtful player.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 1, 2009 6:07 PM EDT reply actions
Thanks for writing this, Jay. It’s definitely true that Victor was different, special. There’s no way I can put into words how I felt about him without it sounding trite and stupid, so I’m glad I have this to point other fans to…
I’m still really, really sad about this. I was kinda bummed when we traded CC, not at all sad when we traded Lee. I didn’t even bat an eye when Manny and Thome left, instead telling all my fellow fans that it was just part of the game and they’d have done the same thing. But this… man I really just did not realize how much I loved Victor until he was gone. This is one instance where the man transcended the laundry, and the laundry just doesn’t look or feel the same without Victor wearing it.
by mrich on Aug 1, 2009 6:13 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
yeah, this sums it up for me, too. going back, i was just as devastated when lofton (to the braves) and baerga were traded, as they too were pillars in the clubhouse and the field that led the ’90’s rebirth, but victor’s departure has this added element of acknowledging that it’s time to start over. ugh.
when the tribe finally wins it will feel SO good.
Bravo Jay. Thanks for making the transition to life without Victor a tiny bit easier.
by Seattle Tribe Fan on Aug 1, 2009 6:18 PM EDT reply actions
Incredible job.
Does anyone have a link to Victor in front of his locker, the video? I haven’t seen it.
Your comments regarding the advent of minor league info accessible online is on target, though some of us who were early devotees of Bill James and his Abstracts may have been paying close attention to the extent they could earlier than that. I remember focusing on Thome and Ramirez early on in the Tribe system, and studying up on acquisitions like Jay Baller and Don Schulze in trades for prospects from before the great run in the 90’s. And as if you were looking over my shoulder, what I’ve been doing since yesterday is perusing my BP Guides from 2008 and 2009, and looking online for details on the acquisitions. I’ve also studied the Clipper and Aero’s current stats to familiarize myself with what we have and how they’re doing. Actually, I am now more engaged with baseball than in the first half of this disappointing season.
Chitown Fan
Thanks Jay. After reading everything on here the past couple days about vic, I realized how many times i remember seeing victor’s smile after a big win. i always looked forward to that smile cause that always meant today was a good day. i never really related to him much because i really never played much catcher. i was always a cory snyder, kenny lofton and grady guy, but he always had the passion for the game that just made you smile. i really enjoyed reading about him and learning more where he came from and that has just made me more sad about what has happened. i know it may not be good for the indians as a team in the future, but i really hope to see him again in an indians uniform. I dont think ive been this sad about the indians since we lost against the marlins.
Thanks again for all your hard work Jay.
Any chance he can come back in FA? I mean say this plan does work out and the players weve gotten through these trades the last 2 years end up bringin us an actual dynasty and steady run to the playoffs which i honestly believe will happen. Is there a chance that we can bring him back to maybe play DH and be an impact player that leads us to the WS. I say DH b/c in time i believe he will be better off just swinging the bat. I really do believe that if everything goes as planned we’ll have a dominant team for years.
Good Job
What hurts the most is…..I could see the pain and sorrow on Vic’s face……I know he will always love the Indians…..just like we do…
Cav
"If I'd just tried for them dinky singles I could've batted around .600" Babe Ruth
“this”:
The pain in both men’s voices spoke volumes this week. Not only is this not what the fans wanted, it isn’t what either one of them wanted. What they wanted was a championship not just for the Indians, and not just for Victor Martinez, but for the Victor Martinez Indians. Our favorites.
jay, i’m a writer and that slays me. that’s something i couldn’t articulate.
and, yes, again, celebrating with my brother on the lower concourse
when betancourt clinched the cental in 2007 is my favorite sports memory.
i’m excited to see what develops, yes … and masterson was quite good tonight,
and he’s what i had wanted in return for our MVP.
his spirit pervades this team; it’ll take a while to get used to this.
"and if it stays fair, it's going to be ... A FAIR BALL!"
by manny trillo electric toothbrush on Aug 1, 2009 11:40 PM EDT reply actions
Thank you, great write up, as someone else mentioned above I’d stripped out the emotional side of the trade and viewed it as a business transaction, unpleasant but probably the right thing to do, seemed to work until I went through the Diatribe’s photo galley of Victor and started reading these articles and realised ever since I’ve started following this team game by game Victor has been the leader and its heart beat.
Man I was over it…………
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on Aug 2, 2009 12:05 AM EDT reply actions
I’d stripped out the emotional side of the trade and viewed it as a business transaction
This is exactly how to view it. Shapiro did what he had to do – play to his strength, trading veterans prior to their walk years for prospects. If he could draft a better, and be luckier with his free-agent signings, this probably wouldn’t have to be done this year. Alas, his drafts were no more than mediocre and his FA signing BA was ~.500.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I hope this remains posted on this site for a long, long time. This was fantastic work. It may be too soon to retire a number, but the 41 should never touch the back of another player. That is, unless of course he makes his glorious return to Cleveland someday.
"It’s tough," Martinez said. "This is my house. This is my home."
We'll miss you, Vic
Or unless Carlos Santana insists on having it.
by ken from alexandria on Aug 2, 2009 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions
One of the best pieces of sports writing I’ve read in a long time.
I hope we have another one like Vic someday.
One of the best pieces ofsportswriting I’ve read in a long time.
Fixed.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 2, 2009 2:17 AM EDT up reply actions
When I played baseball growing up I loved to catch. I always loved that position where you have the whole game right in front of you, you’re in on every play. When I was about 12, I met Sandy Alomar, Jr and talked with him about being a catcher. I was on cloud 9. I never followed through with baseball, but my love for that position made it easy to choose a favorite player at the time in Sandy. Because of this, I will probably always have an unusual affliction for Indian catchers. So it goes without saying that Victor was right there as well, and he couldn’t have been a better player to love. So when the rumor came down on Friday and the rumor turned into truth, I could only act like it didn’t really happen. I didn’t read much on the subject, only scoped out quickly who we got and moved on, hoping to prolong the inevitable. Luckily for me all those I work with are not Cleveland fans, so they simply didn’t understand the situation. Though the diversion couldn’t last forever.
So thank you Jay, as so many other people have said, because this is the first real article that I took the time to fully read and comprehend on the situation, and it couldn’t have been any better. Needless to say, I’m much more depressed about it now than when I was trying to pretend it hadn’t actually happened, but that time was going to come anyway. Thank you for putting such fine thoughts on to paper (err.. the internets), helping us all slowly come to terms with the end of the era. It is all over now except the moving on.
Shin-Soo Choo, future U.S. Citizen.
The more I read over here, the more I like this trade. I doubt we will (or can) ever feel the way you all do about the guy, but we will appreciate him. I promise.
I know its a stretch, but maybe you will put aside your Boston feelings and root for your favorite player? I understand it would feel weird, but we did it with Ray Bourque in Colorado and it worked.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
Thanks for the message.
And, sorry, but there’s no way we can root for the Red Sox, even with Victor there. Boston fans are arrogant enough; they don’t need another World Series. It’s different than Bourque going to Colorado. Victor is nowhere near the end of his career so he has plenty of time to win a WS after he leaves Boston.
I can appreciate the sentiment, but … Ray f’ing Bourque? I think you’ve rather missed the point even to raise the comparison.
Lots of folks here have deep animosity for the Red Sox as basically comparable to the Yankees. Others don’t.
I suspect that a few will be able to put those feelings aside to root for Victor in the postseason, but not everyone.
Few could dispute that neither the Red Sox nor their fans deserve a title by any stretch of the imagination.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 2, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
On that note, a few posts from OTM today following-up on a link to your piece:
yeah, those guys HATE the Sox.
its a really bitter site in general. But those guys know their shit.
Hey! New site header!
I would be bitter as well if I was an Indians fan
My, how quickly they forget.
They should (hate) the system, not the teams that use it to their advantage.
Yeah, wow. My bad. Go Sox.
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Force quit and move to trash.
I don’t think we’re bitter. A little sarcastic but actually realistic. They wanna see bitter we should link them to cle.com.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Hell yeah, we’re bitter. We’re just bitter about the right things.
"It's all part of life's rich pageant, you know?" - Inspector Clouseau
by woodsmeister on Aug 2, 2009 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
If I’m bitter about the Sox it is because of this:
1. Andy Marte, 3b
2. Jon Lester, lhp
3. Jonathan Papelbon, rhp
4. Craig Hansen, rhp
5. Dustin Pedroia, 2b/ss
6. Jacoby Ellsbury, of
7. Kelly Shoppach, c
8. Manny Delcarmen, rhp
9. Jed Lowrie, ss/2b
10. Clay Buchholz, rhp
This is Baseball America’s Top 10 list for them published on January 6, 2006. Every single player on this list has made it to the big leagues, and just about all of them have had a fair degree of success. The two guys the Indians have off this list have probably had the least success relative to playing time (maybe not in Shoppach’s case) of the entire list. This makes me bitter because even acknowledging the Red Sox have a fantastic scouting and development group (which I think they do), it still requires a lot of luck for it all to come together. It has come together for all these guys (except the two, or almost two, who are in Cleveland now). I don’t think I’ve ever seen a BA list where everyone made it to the bigs, let alone did so successfully.
by APV on Aug 2, 2009 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You’re right, that’s pretty remarkable.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 2, 2009 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Have you looked at Craig Hansen’s stats lately? Granted, he’s pitching for Pittsburgh, but, yeesh, He’s certainly a lot less than his hype so far.
"It's all part of life's rich pageant, you know?" - Inspector Clouseau
by woodsmeister on Aug 3, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I was actually having a conversation at yesterday’s game about this. On the one hand, there’s really no love lost between me and the Red Sox, on the other hand, I really would like to see Victor win a ring.
I suppose it all depends on who the Red Sox might end up playing in the post-season.
Come on, the Yankees are still worse. The Yankees are the ones who outbid every other team by $50 million for A-Rod, and by another $50 million for Sabathia.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 2, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions
At this moment you detest the Yankees more than the Red Sox? I recognize that, going forward, the Yankees are ruining baseball. Right now, this very moment, I loathe the Red Sox. It’s going to take a few weeks to get past this and back to a more logical system of hate.
We did voluntarily make this trade, you know, and frankly, from a baseball-only standpoint, I think we got the better of it.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I’m aware of all of that. I know all the logic, I know the baseball. I hate the Red Sox right now because they have Vic because they have all the advantages. I’m aware the Yankees are worse, but they don’t have Vic. It’s a completely emotional, illogical, uninformed decision, and I’m ok with that.
Geez, dude, the Yankees have Sabathia.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 3, 2009 1:43 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, Bill.
No, I will not be rooting for the Red Sox.
That said, I know you really liked Ray Borque.
Humpel,
I knew you wouldn’t be rooting for the Sox.
And I actually really did like Ray Bourque. My hockey fandom kind of died right around that time. We all realized that we loved the players, but hated the ownership of the Bruins so much that watching Ray win a Stanley Cup was like watching our own team win a championship (that was before Boston’s insane run of success in every sport). There are still many, many people in Boston that consider themselves Colorado Avalanche fans.
But I never had any animosity towards the Colorado Avalanche before the trade. And given the way you feel about all things Boston, I would never expect you to actually root for the Sox. But wouldn’t you be happy to see Victor win a World Series?
Oh, and thanks for not returning my call after the trade.
"Ninety percent [of my salary] I'll spend on good times, women, and Irish whiskey. The other ten percent I'll probably waste."
-Tug McGraw
That’s cruel, why would you call him after the trade? Give the man some time.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
by USSChoo on Aug 3, 2009 7:10 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s kind of like asking, “wouldn’t you be happy to see an ex who you remain on good terms with happily married to someone you don’t like”
by APV on Aug 3, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’m in Europe. Sorry.
Would I be happy to see Victor win a world series?
Sigh. It’s a tough question. The answer, frankly, is probably not. I’d be so disgusted I wouldn’t be able to be happy for anyone.
I can’t put aside my contempt for the system and those at the top of it in order to cheer on a player I like, even if it’s Vic.
July 31, 2009
THESE are the times that try men’s souls. The summer fan and the sunshine supporter will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their team; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Losing, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. The Baseball Gods know how to put a proper price upon their goods; and it would be strange indeed if so celestial an article as CHAMPIONSHIPS! should not be highly rated. Boston, with a payroll to enforce her tyranny, has declared that she has a right (not only to WIN) but “to SHOP us for ANY ALL-STARS WHATSOEVER” and if being bound in that manner, is not an economic disadvantage, then is there not such a thing as an economic disadvantage upon baseball. Even the expression is impious; for so unlimited a talent pool can belong only to a deep farm system.
Whether the era of rebuilding was declared too soon, or delayed too long, I will not now enter into as an argument; my own simple opinion is, that had it been eight months earlier, it would have been much better. We did not make a proper use of last winter, neither could we, while we were in a seemingly competitive state. However, the fault, if it were one, was all our bullpen’s; we have none to blame but Masa Kobayashi. But no great deal is lost yet. All that Shapiro has been doing for this month past, is rather a reload than a rebuild, which the spirit of the fanbase, a year ago, would have quickly repulsed, and which time and Carlos Santana will soon recover.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Aug 2, 2009 10:05 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Jay, in a way you articulate what it is to be a fan.
Jay, your piece on Victor was great because it brought to the surface the emotions that fans had towards a player who felt like a ‘Cleveland Indians creation’ if you will. He was signed as a teenager, came up through the system, and as you point out, was a player that many Indians fans became very familiar with through the power of the Internet and the access it provides to information on players as they work their way to the majors. Perhaps that is why it hurts so deeply. But in reality, Victor was much like Manny or Thome. Signed by the Indians, nurtured in the farm system, brought to the bigs with strong minor league credentials, and players that blossomed into potential HOF inductees. However, Thome and Ramirez were lost with little in return save for high picks in the draft. And both hurt a lot at the time. In fact, to this day Thome draws a cascade of boos every time he appears in Cleveland with the Chisox.
But your premise that the landscape has changed as the Internet has grown in power and influence is meaningful, and valid. I guess the only solace we can take from what has transpired is that unlike the loss of Manny and Thome, the Indians received something in return beyond high draft choices. One can only wonder what ‘could have been’ had the Dolans and Shapiro opted to NOT make a run for the playoffs in 2001 and flipped Thome for prospects. Could that have provided a big bat in RF instead of Gutierrez (who I liked a lot BTW)? Could he have yielded a shut down closer? Perhaps a solid number four starter to go with CC, Fausto, and Jake in 2007. Any of which could have put us over the top in 2007 or 2005? Who knows? But of course, that would have been a huge step for new owners and a new GM to take, and while hindsight is easy, at the time I doubt anyone would have been able to justify it.
What I do know is that since late May, I only occasionally tuned into ML Ticket on DirecTV to watch the Tribe because so many times, watching the game resulted in sleepless nights and hours spent posting vitriol about the disaster that has been the 2009 season. However, in the past week and a half I am more engaged, more focused, and actually looking forward to watching the Indians again. Why? Because I would rather spend a hopeless season watching high potential prospects learn how to play in the majors instead of a hyped veteran squad under perform in historic ways. And again, as you remind us, that is why we loved Victor. Because we all watched him, and Grady, and Jhonny, and so many others grow up before our eyes and become heroes. That is why baseball is timeless, and a TRUE fan’s passion for their team is never ending. Will we miss Victor? Yes. Does it hurt? Of course. Will he always live in our memories? Well, he will in mine, but trading him won’t change what I became growing up in Garfield and Bath/Richfield. A Cleveland Indians fan.
Chitown Fan
but trading him won’t change what I became growing up in Garfield and Bath/Richfield. A Cleveland Indians fan.
At the end of the day, it is what gets us by. You can’t teach an old dog new tricks, and sometimes you wouldn’t want to, even if you could.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
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