Game 119: Angels 3, Indians 0
by afh4 on Aug 19, 2009 10:09 PM EDT
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In the continuing conundrum that is the Indians' 2009, the bullpen was again outstanding tonight: a hitless 2.1 inning performance that featured three strikeouts was turned in by Chris Perez and Jess Todd. All that was for naught though as Jeremy Sowers, after flirting with a no-hitter, again ran into trouble in the dreaded fifth. Despite that, Sowers' final line was decent: a 6.2 IP with only the three earned.
Sowers is still doing this with smoke and mirrors; he had five walks and two strikeouts tonight. I can't imagine Jeremy has a future as a starter in the AL even if he's occasionally able to cobble together a run of starts like he's on now (32 IP and only 11 ER over his last 5 starts). Sowers does still have incredible numbers through his first four innings this year; he's certainly not that good but it's probably worth the effort to try to convert him into a reliever over the offseason by making him do whatever exercises one does to improve warmup time.
The offense got shutout by Jered Weaver but nobody can stop the Luis Valbuena show which featured a double and a single and continues to tick along at a near .800 OPS post-ASB. Choo also had a double and a single. In other news, Chris Gimenez went hitless.
Tomorrow, Lackey vs. Masterson at 7:05.
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Valbuena | .073 | Jamey Carroll |
-.106 |
| Chris Perez |
.036 | Chris Gimenez | -.105 |
| Jhonny Peralta |
.010 | Kelly Shoppach | -.098 |
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Since we’ve all but admitted we’re not competing next year with the pitching we have, what about going outside the box a bit with the rotation? Match Sowers up with someone to make a 200-220 IP guy. Masterson would be the ideal complement, but you obviously have to give him the chance to show he can be a legit ML starter first, even if you are skeptical he can do that with his arm angle. Let each guy go 3-4 innings on the same night, and hopefully you can cover some of your blemishes.
by 7foot3 on Aug 19, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
it’s probably worth the effort to try to convert him into a reliever over the offseason by making him do whatever exercises one does to improve warmup time.
by SuddenSam on Aug 19, 2009 11:06 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Just took a quick look at the box score and was shocked by the difference in offensive numbers the Angels are putting and how anemic our offense looks in comparison. We’ve got a long way to go to be competitive over the course of a season with a team like California.
And, oh yeah, the AL East is the powerhouse, but the AL West is catchin’ up. Meanwhile the AL Central looks like the 90 pound weakling.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
There’s nothing wrong with the Tribe offense—it’s great. Eighth in the majors (behind the Minnesota Twins!) in runs scored. At present rate, it will be a struggle for the Indians to finish in top half of teams. Hitting will be a big problem in 2010.
I’ll give you that we’re scoring – overall – at a pretty good clip. But ya gotta remember, a lot of those runs were scored before we eviscerated our offense. You don’t lose a great hitter like Martinez and two soldiers like Garko and DeRosa, replace them with the likes of Chris Giminez and Kelly Shoppach and not expect some drop off. You couple that with the loss of Lee and Pavano and you risk turning an under-performing team into a bad one.
Lots of stuff gonna hafta go right for us to be in the hunt in 2011. Lots of stuff. I’ve got the Faith, but I know it could go south on us quick too.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
You make a good point about what hitters have been replaced by whom. Having said that, we had no real risk of becoming a bad team, given that we already had the second-worst record in the majors at the time.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
But if got just enough worse we could have caught the Nationals!
Replacing Vic with Shoppach/Toregas/Gimenez certainly hurt the offense. DeRosa was replaced by whom? Valbuena, I guess, with Jhonny moving to 3B. Since the start of July, Valbuena has a higher OPS than DeRosa. LaPorta should outproduce Garko, if he actually gets regular playing time.
Hard to mix in NL teams what with the DH. 11th is probably average if you filter that factor out.
Fact is, we have good all-around offensive numbers even with Grady and Asdrubal missing chunks of time and Grady and Jhonny having huge slumps for a month or so. Victor was hitting terribly for a month before he was dealt, and as long as Shoppach plays as much as Victor did, the dropoff likely won’t be that great. (Yeah, I said it.)
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I really hate stats divided arbitrarily into months, but we’re second last (AL) in runs scored this month.
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
Grady and Jhonny having huge slumps for a month or so.
Grady has pretty much had a slump all year. He hit well at the start of the season , and right after ASB, which probably points to his injury: he hits better after resting.
Honestly, we were never in jeopardy of being caught by the Nationals.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Here’s an avatar bet: I’ll bet you that the NL West team wins its first round of the NL play-offs. You on?
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I don’t bet on NL teams and I never place my Choo-vatar on the line.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
Because that would upset me too. And that’s just not cool.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Don’t worry, he’s not going anywhere. I am, however, thinking about a new location for him. Any ideas?
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
I don’t know what your apartment looks like so I can’t really give opinions. Is there a place where you have a lot of Indians stuff displayed?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 20, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmm, I’ve got an idea. I’ll work on it this weekend.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
Well, if she goes missing, we know where to look.
by dgcambridge on Aug 21, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I’ll tell you what, Chuck, I’ll bet you that at least one NL West team_loses_ the first round of the playoffs.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I don’t get why the AL-NL thing is even a debate. Cliff Lee has threatened a no hitter in every appearance for the Phils
It’s not. The AL is still vastly superior. There is ample proof of that.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 20, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Careful with the adjectives there Brad. I’ll give you that the AL is the better league right now, but "vastly"? I don’t think so.
Any league with the Yankees and Angels in it is a pretty good league. Texas is coming up and I wouldn’t count out the Red Sox and the Rays even. But after that it gets a little thin. The Tigers? The White Sox? I dunno. Meanwhile the Dodger’s are looking pretty formidable and the defending World Champs just added one of the best pitchers – I think he’s the best – in all of baseball. The Cards are always tough in the post season and the Cubs may just come back to life. But, truth be told, I don’t see a whole lotta distance between the two Chicago clubs.
As to the worst team in baseball, the Nats take this title without a struggle – just like they play their games. The Padres look helpless, but the Pirates seem to headed in the right direction. The Royals? I have no idea what the hell Dayton Moore is trying to do – but then again, neither does he. The Orioles will never amount to much as long as that asbestos shyster, Peter Angelos, has anything to do with the team. Our Indians are doing surprising well after the money/standings induced fire sale and look poised to be back in the hunt in a year or two. So the bottom of the barrel looks like the inverse of the cream of the crop with the NL taking the honors in the former and the AL the latter – but it’s a close call. Nothing here that deserves the term "vastly" in front of it.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Can’t believe you are still struggling with this basic concept … the Dodgers look impressive because they’re in the NL. They may in fact be no better than the White Sox or even the Twins. Your ratings are based entirely on how teams are doing within their league. Since almost every team is between .400 and .600 every year, intraleague records don’t really tell us anything about relative talent between the leagues.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I can’t believe that you’re ignoring the fact that the World Champs are in the NL – and have improve that championship team. Again: what’s the goal here? Put up the best Power Ranking or actually win the World Series.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
First, it’s one team. Second, the overall AL-NL win-loss over the past five years basically is like the Red Sox vs. the Royals. Third, between two good teams, the probability of the better team winning is only slightly more than 50%, as we have demonstrated many, many times arithmetically. Despite the clear inferiority of the NL, their pennant winner generally will be at least a good team.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but anyone who would attempt to divine a large-scale trend involving thousands of players out of a handful of games is basically out to lunch.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
BTW I said that “vastly” was a poor choice of words. The NL has it’s pluses, just not as many as the AL. The NLs worst team – the Nats – is much worse than the AL’s worst – the Royals. The AL’s best – the Yankees/Angles – maybe – and this is arguable – be better than the NL’s best – the Phillies/Dodgers. The only way to judge the latter is to see who wins the WS, and that’s a seven game – SSS – series.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
That isn’t, in fact, the only way to judge which is the best team — there are many ways we could devise that would be more valid — but it is the only way to determine who the world champion is for the season, and that is every team’s goal.
Think of it like tennis rankings. The person who wins Wimbledon isn’t necessarily the top-ranked player, although often it will be the same player. The relationship between “champion” and “best” in baseball is similar but even more loose.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Every team starts the year knowing how the champion will be determined. It’s not like the College Football Championship, where there are subjective evaluations. Nope, it’s straight forward, you hafta construct a team that will play well for 162 games – a pretty large sample – and then take that same team and do well in a seven game series – a much smaller sample. Not necessarily the best way but it is very, very objective.
Subjective evaluation – and statistical determination is, in the end subjective – is not how baseball champions are determined. It all depends on the final score.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
If look at the last 10 World Series matchups, 8 of them have featured a Wild Card team, with one of those series featuring 2 Wild Card teams. This seems to suggest that while, yes, one must contruct a team to perform well for 162 games to get INTO the playoffs, winning said playoffs depends little on whether you were the best in baseball during the season or 2nd best in your own division.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
Chuck just sees that as validating his passion for Cliff Lee, which is fine. The reason his NL ERA is under 1.00 is because everybody is right — the NL is that much weaker, and Cliff is really good. And small samples of course.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
So far he’s out pitching – and out hitting – Cazzi Culone in the NL and yet he doesn’t get one tenth the credit for stellar performance the Tubby did on this site. I guess life is unfair.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Honestly, I think we’re all more than a little too burnt at this point to be cheering for our player on another team. We aren’t rooting much for Victor, either, and with good reason. Hell, I predicted Lee would do as well as C.C. did last year. It also was easy to root for C.C. last year because it was easy to “adopt” the Brewers — not even remotely a rival of ours, down on their luck for years, the smallest of markets, totally the underdog. The 2009 Phillies, not so much — not only are they the defending champs and resident of the largest single-team market in MLB, but they’re also the jerks that signed Thome.
Cliff in his very best year was better than C.C. in his very best. I believe Ryan’s piece in the Annual draws that picture quite clearly.
Fact remains, though, that C.C. had a more significant and successful career as an Indian. He started more game and innings, prevented more runs, contributed more wins, had more good seasons and more great seasons, and notably contributed more to real pennant races. He also was homegrown, never spent significant time on the DL, never was bad enough for long enough to have to go back to the minors, spent more time in the majors and more time in the organization.
Try as you might, you can’t change the fact that C.C. is the most significant Indians pitcher of the past 40 years, and Cliff Lee only pitched the best single season of the past 35 years.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I think there was also an incredible sense of novelty to CC leaving:
1-We had traded a player like that since Colon and, while 2008 was disappointing, 2009 loomed optimistically and LaPorta was an exciting addition.
2-We all knew there was a remarkable AL-NL disparity but, frankly, I don’t think anyone would’ve predicted Sabathia’s success last year at the level it occurred. He turned into, statistically, arguably the best pitcher of all time for a couple of months. The fact that Lee is doing it is still staggering but, well, we’ve seen this movie before.
Finally, CC leaving was not nearly as painful as it could’ve been because CC was out of town, literally, no question, at the end of the season. This was not the case with Lee.
Right. We’re more bummed about Lee, because they basically are blowing up the team. Last year, we were losing one valuable guy and also Casey Blake but still charging hard at 2009 — which should be obvious considering they went out and got DeRosa for his walk-year and Wood at top-dollar. We won’t be doing any moves like that this offseason, and it isn’t just because we’re broke.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I would like to point out that I, someone who has long held on to the notion of Pronk returning to something useful, am completely giving up on Travis Hafner. The end is not near, the end is here.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
He is in a slump, but it presently looks like you’re correct. Given more PAs, he seems exposed. He still has an OPS of .821 in 256 plate appearances, driven by his OBP. That’s okay. But it’s sad he’s worse than Juan Rivera.
That is sad. If the shoulder is still the leading cause of all of this, will it ever be good again? I’m just coming to terms with the fact that it might not be. There was no real damage when it was cleaned out, so maybe it’s not all the shoulder and maybe a lot of it is mental. And that to me is just as scary.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
I would guess his shoulder is giving him pain or it’s fatigued…it’s probably been an issue to a varying degree all year. He just can’t get around on a fastball the past three weeks or so. His double last night was the hardest hit drive to the right field side of second base in the past month.
He’s 10 months from his surgery. I don’t think there’s any doubt that his shoulder is better than it was last year, but it shouldn’t be a surprise that he’s not 100%. Next year should be a telling sign to determine if he’s going to come closer to what he was in 2005-2006.
That said, it could be just a slump, getting in between pitches (fastball and offspeed). Choo is having the same issue as Hafner in getting around on a good fastball, though Choo is staying back better against the offspeed stuff. Choo has still been a good offensive player, but he’s right on top of the plate and getting buried with fastballs inside. He’s staying inside the ball well, and you need to do that, but in the second half last year he learned to pull the ball better as well. He’s temporarily lost that ability…his last homer to right field was July 3.
2009 looks like his 2003. I said this before, but Hamilton or Hegan said Hafner would be better next year when he could condition and strengthen over the winter. At the time I heard this (a few months ago) I was buoyed by it, but perhaps it was just unwarranted optimism.
My fear has been the recent seeming breakdown in plate discipline … and I’m hoping it’s the shoulder … and not a slowing bat.
It just feels to me like he’s starting that swing sooner … and can’t wait back to determine if balls will be in or out of the zone like he used to.
by FallsTribeFan on Aug 20, 2009 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
This is probably an opportunity for some orthopedic expert (Mario?) to provide analysis on shoulder repairs, but speaking from personal experiences (two surgeries on the right shoulder), it can take a while to break down the scar tissue from the surgery and get everything fluid again. However, the more regular use you get, the better it starts to feel. Hopefully this will be the case with Hafner rather than chronic inflamation and fatigue.
I still think he’s a valuable player. Isn’t he? Or do I have no idea what you should get out of the DH position in the AL?
When he’s able to play, he’s been an above average DH. The average AL DH has a .253/.339/.450 line. But that doesn’t mean the average AL team is using the DH spot efficiently.
Because Hafner requires so much rest, perhaps it would be better to use his total hits, walks, doubles, homers…etc…and compare them to other DHs – rather than his averages. Using the totals, I would presume that an above average DH (by averages) who plays 25% fewer games, would grade out at average to below average.
The time has passed for accrediting Hafner’s performance to injury. He’s gotten old fast and just doesn’t have neither the bat speed nor pitch recognition he had – has it been this long? – three years ago. It happens to every player.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
???
If he was playing every day, then perhaps. But if you can’t play more than a few days in a row without fatigue/soreness, and you’ve already been disabled in the current year due to the injury, how can you say that time has passed??
Because this is not a transient phenomenon. When I think of injury to a young athlete I hope at some point he’ll heal. Whatever is wrong with Hafner, Pronk is not coming back. It’s time for the Indians to move on and find a full time DH.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
OK, I understand your point better now. I don’t have any doubt that the drop-off in performance is due to the injury, starting in 2007. But I do have doubts whether it will heal and be strong enough to get him close to what he was previously. He had surgery, but he’s back to doing the same task that caused the injury in the first place.
See, I’m still confused as to what the “injury” is. I’ve heard stuff about weakness, fatigue, surgery, re-hab etc. What I haven’t heard is an honest-to-God diagnosis. That’s troubling.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
F’ed up shoulder. That’s the diagnosis.
Best case is that 2007 was slump, 2008 was in jury, and 2009 is basically a long rehab assignment. He has hit better when he’s been more fresh, that much seems clear from the limited data we have. With another offseason to rest and build his strength, maybe he’s back to normal in 2010. But “normal” will still be a slugger a few years past his peak at that point. And this is all the best case.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
F’ed up shoulder.
Tried to find that Dx in Schwartz’s – even without the modified spelling – and couldn’t find it.
Like I said, probably a combination of a lot of stuff, chronic injury, age, “deminishing skill”, so he many improve, but not as much as we all hope.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Shoulder injuries suck and sometimes never go away. I still have shoulder problems from senior year in high school. I still can’t swim the same.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 21, 2009 1:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
In other news, Chris Gimenez suckswent hitless.
There, that’s better.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 20, 2009 8:10 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Has anyone noticed how awesome Perez has been since his first couple of innings?
Freakin’ Awesome. Let’s just start with July 1:
14IP, 15K, 2ER, 4BB. Bam.
Plus, the One True Perez has kept his last five inherited runners from scoring, after allowing all 5 to score in the first part of that stretch. In his last 7 appearances (6.1 IP): 2 singles, 2 walks, 7 strikeouts, no runs.
The One True Perez
I like it. I’ve been wondering how the two Raffys right and left was going to evolve to reflect that we now have two Perez’s but just one Raffy.
Stuart Dean, shrubber
by stuart dean on Aug 20, 2009 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
97 at the knees is no fun.
BTW, I love Todd’s wipeout slider. If he gets ahead in the count, it becomes a “game over” pitch.
Stuart Dean, shrubber
by stuart dean on Aug 20, 2009 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
so you’re saying he’s NOT a jlew clone?
by gorilla_baller on Aug 20, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Lewis’s pitches either are straight or rise somewhat. Every single one of Todd’s pitches has downward movement. Both have somewhat deceptive deliveries and don’t throw very hard which might be the desire to compare them.
the velo was mostly what i was going for… but i do suffer from a bit of shiny new toy syndrome, so i favor todd at the moment
by gorilla_baller on Aug 20, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t we all?
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 20, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
there’s one guy in shaker heights still pulling for jensen… outside of that, yes
by gorilla_baller on Aug 20, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
I meant have shiny toy syndrome. I’m still pulling for Jensen, based on his dual status as an actual Indians fan and a huge dork… just like me.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 20, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re not the creator of the “Jensen Lewis ROX!” Facebook group, are you?
by cleveland teamer on Aug 20, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not that original. I’ve also never tried to friend him, although my cousin did so successfully.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 20, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Looking at the reality that the Indians COULD be really bad next year, realistically speaking, they could also win the division. If any of these young guys pan out at all, they actually have a nice core of young talent. It basically comes down to their pitching, just like this year. We all seem fairly optimistic about the bullpen, so I guess it’s up to the rotation.
The Twins are the Twins, with shaky pitching and two offensive standouts. 500 seems to be their lot.
The White may rue the day they picked up the salaries of Peavy and Rios. That’s a ton of money for two potential underachievers. And while they desperately need to get younger, as the Cliff Lee example shows, this ain’t the NL. Peavy may struggle mightily.
That leaves the ancient Tigers… they’re old.
Methinks the division will be ripe for the picking. Now, if the Tribe can just hire John Farrell to manage this young bunch and develop those arms.
You know, Peavy will probably put up Cliff Lee vs-AL numbers.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Wouldn’t they be worse? Leaving PetCo and all?
Case of the beet bandit. Missing beets from all over the farm, no footprints. Inside job. Mose in socks. Boom. Case closed. -Dwight Schrute
Wouldn’t they be worse? Leaving PetCo and all for the launching pad that is Cellular Phone Service Firm
Field
"It's all part of life's rich pageant, you know?" - Inspector Clouseau
by woodsmeister on Aug 20, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Really, the same assessment could have been made going into the 2009 season. When you have a division as close as ours, it comes down to the bullpens. Predicting that is next to impossible.
For us to even have a shot, the bullpen will have to be rock solid all year long, few injuries and a couple surprise performances out of players. Lots of ‘ifs’ there.
I promise I’ll let this go someday, but can I just say…nothing we’ve seen in the last few weeks, including seeing the actual trade returns, changes my personal choice for the deadline to keep Cliff and trade Victor. It could have gone:
Do the DeRosa trade
Do the Garko trade
Do the Victor trade
[weep]
Offer Francisco for any of the 4 guys we got from Philly
DO NOT TRADE CLIFF
Let Pavano go
Go for it in 2010, and be prepared to trade Cliff next July (yes he’s a pitcher and might get hurt and lose value. that’s how it works)
Keep on after it in 2011
by dgcambridge on Aug 20, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Beyond the trade returns, and setting the team up for a run in 2011/2012, there was most likely a financial component as well. I presume shedding $9 M in payroll in 2010 was a consideration for ownership that will lose $16 M in 2009 if the chance of success in 2010 was slim.
Absolutely. What they did was totally understandable, I can’t kill them for it. I just would have chosen to go this way, because I don’t agree that the chances were so slim in 2010, or that the Lee trade results were worth it (and be willing to risk that we’d get half that in July 2010 if needed).
I’m assuming we don’t know what was said exactly with regards to ownership. If they simply said that we couldn’t add anyone significant, I probably would have stuck with the above plan. But if they said “you need to cut another $9 M off the 2010 payroll” then there’s no choice, of course.
by dgcambridge on Aug 20, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
I might agree with your plan, but I don’t know if I can agree that it’s $30 million better than this plan.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I assume that’s the number you get from adding up the projected values on each side of the trade? I keep typing up responses to that, but keep deleting them. I’m sure there was already a long debate over the appropriateness of that calculation, and I’d like to address is again when I have more time. I am not a fan.
No, it’s not really about the asset valuation. I think the point you’re making essentially boils downt o this: giving up on the 2010 run (and the attendant bad press for dealing two Cy Youngs, etc.) is not worth value of the assets we acquired. While I don’t necessarily agree, I think that’s a worthy argument.
Where I think the argument falls down is that the team is losing $16 million this year and would next year as well, even without adding any pieces. A sincere attempt to contend by itself will do little if anything to boost revenue, as the fans most likely will take a S.O.S. attitude toward the whole endeavor. (At least this way, they can’t be disappointed next year.)
Moving Cliff Lee saves them $11 million directly, and it also gives them license to move the free agent classes of 2010 and 2011 — Shoppach, Peralta, Wood, Westbrook — to whatever greatest extent those moves are now or later become expedient. Depending on Wood’s option, those guys will be paid either $45 million or $55 million. What that means is — even while disregarding Victor, who in your scenario is traded anyway — bailing on 2010 by trading Lee potentially saves the club $65 million, definitely $20 million and probably more than $30 million.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Ah, I misunderstood.
I don’t disagree with those numbers. The argument is that attempting to contend in 2010 is not a luxury that we could afford. Yuck, it may be so. Think we can trade Wood and $5 M to some team?
We still would not have been able to add anyone (significant) in the off-season. I don’t really see how this team could be more than a .500 team, even with Cliff Lee.
It’s weird that some people think we’re competing next year and other people think we weren’t going to compete even with Cliff Lee. It’s just a massive gulf between the two sides.
"It's all part of life's rich pageant, you know?" - Inspector Clouseau
by woodsmeister on Aug 20, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to bring up the inanity level here, I want you to know when I first read this comment, I found myself reading it as the lyrics to a dance song. I’m not sure what a dance called “The DeRosa Trade” would look like, though.
by AngG on Aug 20, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We probably forfeited a fifth prospect by including him.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 20, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know, Donald’s stock had fallen, so maybe for him. Our basic idea was to have one fewer outfielder and one more middle infielder, I think that was more significant than the value difference.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
And yet he’s a gritty veteran.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 20, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Donald’s top prospectdom was/is based on immediacy rather than ceiling. I don’t really know how much better of a prospect he is now than Francisco was two years ago.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
That’s where it gets fuzzy. As you know, I don’t ever like to use an injury as a positive indicator, but let’s face it, Donald has been very unimpressive in Triple-A, beyond the positional difference. If at some point he’s healthy, possibly that makes him effective again. We’ll see. It’s also fuzzy whether he’s a true shortstop, or whether he’s a shortstop the way that Francisco is a center fielder.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I don’t like to think of injury as a negative, but more of a let’s see what he does next season before we make a good evaluation of his prospects.
I don’t like to think of injury as a negative
You may not like to, but injury is in fact a negative, and at best only a minor one.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I have just seen so many examples of a team buying low on an injured player and it becoming a huge positive for them.
Subtle. I like it.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 21, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Players are not prospects. The Indians “buy low” on a half-dozen or more minor league signings every year, but far less than 10% ever make a significant contribution like Bob Howry did.
Prospects face the challenge of developing and adjusting to tougher competition, in addition to rehabbing their injuries. They haven’t even had the reps yet to get to that higher level. Jordan Brown, Matt Whitney and Michael Aubrey came back from down years with injuries, but … came back to do what exactly? How about Alex Escobar?
It’s common sense: Injuries are bad.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Can we agree that Sowers is not a prospect any longer?
If so, checking his 4 inning split, is it that far-fetched to consider having 2 fifth starters at once? Especially when carrying 13 pitchers, imagine having 2 guys ready to go on regular rest, lined up for the same day.
Sowers would be 5 #1 and let’s say Ohka is 5 #2. If Sowers is cruising, save Ohka, split, and use the bullpen as usual for the late innings.
Obvious reason this wouldn’t work?
Obvious reason not to start Carrasco or SLewis and just make him a plain vanilla long reliever?
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 20, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
If this were true, they’d better trade him immediately. Every start he makes he threatens to regress to his actual self. As I said elsewhere, he hasn’t turned any corners—he’s just getting lucky in his run suppression. Fortunately, it’s not true.
And I also dispute the notion that Sowers doesn’t have value as a long reliever. We face a rotation next year that potentially includes (pick 4): two rookies, a guy who hasn’t thrown a pitch in a major league game since May 2008, the Fausto enigma, and a still-developing Huff and/or Masterson. This isn’t 2005 any more. Every non-Laffey day it will behoove the team to have a credible long reliever in reserve, because every non-Laffey day carries the threat of an early exit by the starter.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 20, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This.
"It's all part of life's rich pageant, you know?" - Inspector Clouseau
by woodsmeister on Aug 20, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I considered capitalizing Enigma. Thanks for picking it up.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 20, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Minors pitching probables:
Columbus: Scott Lewis vs. Toledo @ 7:05 pm
Akron: Connor Graham vs. Bowie @ 7:05 pm
Kinston: Bryan Price vs. Myrtle Beach @ 7:05 pm
Lake County: T.J. House at Delmarva @ 7:00 pm
Mahoning Valley: Preston Guilmet at Hudson Valley @ 7:05 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong but these are all very much worth keeping an eye on.
Steel Nick
Concerning the Lee deal, if you have a chance to dig up the Hoynes/Shapiro 4-part interview on the PD it’s a good listen. For those who hoist up the “spin doctor” flag, then don’t bother. But Shapiro has a lot of sensible things to say, with the most important being yes, some of the trade reasoning was financial-related, BUT only in the sense that 1) if they hold their cards until next year they may have won, but they thought that going into this year and it didn’t happen. I guess they thought the chances of hacking around in mediocrity were too possible for 2010, at which time the organization would’ve been TOTALLY HOSED for its lack of pitching in the system and low attendance revenue.
Lee’s days were numbered here. The losing culture had set in, something had to change, and Wedge will go at the end of the year as well. I think the trades were both necessary and they got good talent in return. Marson is a good hitter and solid catcher who projects to be a regular. Donald at least a utility guy and nobody has ever doubted Carrasco’s stuff. Have you been paying attention to his last four outings at Columbus? He’s got great ability if he gets aggressive with it. Having Carrasco and Rondon coming in at the same time with Huff, Laffey and Masterson tells me they’ll have at least solid, if not spectacular, pitching for some time through the early teens — then those young guys (Knapp/Hagedone/Pryce/Barnes) will be coming up.
I think the moves were very necessary and downright shrewd.
I don’t know if a “losing culture” has set in, but clearly we had reached a point where we’re no longer attractive to free agents — or even to our own players approaching free agency. We need to show some promise in 2010 if we want to keep Grady in the fold. Lee-led mediocrity was not going to get that done.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
The losing culture had set in with that current situation. You know how teams get locked into a year, good or bad, and you can’t seem to change it until the following year? With Wedge and Co. and the roster he had for this season it wasn’t going to get a whole lot better, was it?
Does anyone else picture Wedge writing out tonight’s lineup card with a hand trembling like someone who’s about to go on a weeklong bender?
Sizemore cf, cabrera ss, Choo rf, Peralta 3b, Hafner dh, valbuena 2b, Shoppach CA, LaPorta lf, Marte 1b
Sizemore cf, cabrera ss, Choo rf, Peralta 3b, Jordan Brown dh, valbuena 2b, Shoppach CA, LaPorta lf, Marte 1b
/sarc
CARROLL PULLED FROM THE LINEUP
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
by westbrook on Aug 20, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If LaPorta mashes, Marte hits, Masterson does OK and the One True Perez and The Todd appear and destroy Angels, I might just keel over and require medical intervention.
by FredOx on Aug 20, 2009 5:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Would he start hyperventilating, run over to the white board and start scribbling Gimenez until he could relax?
by Matt in LA on Aug 20, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I imagine he might even have to start pretending Casey Blake is still on this team at this point. Start calling one of the guys “Casey” just to maintain his composure.
Hell, if it will get LaPorta in the lineup everyday, let Wedge call him “Blake” and let him also call Marte “Carroll”. Anything to get these guys in a lineup everyday.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 20, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone cheer on the Tribe and my #2 boyfriend well tonight. I’ll be talking to girls all night long. I’l send good vibes, no worries.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Cheer for the Indians and Justin Masterson (#2 boyfriend). I’ll be at sorority recruitment all night talking to the sorority girls. But I’ll be sending them good vibes (which have been working) from where I am.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 20, 2009 10:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Ah, right, right. Forgot about the list there.
Is it formal recruitment? Formal recruitment is the most hilariously awful thing I have ever witnessed in my entire life.
What is formal recruitment?
We go and talk to all the sororities and then get invited back to different ones in different rounds until we get one that bids on us.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 20, 2009 10:51 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s formal recruitment.
If it leads to something good for you, more power to you and I wish you luck.
But man, the process. To me, it looks like a slave auction. It just seems like there are a helluva lot better ways to go about it.
I thought it was fun. It was very tiring. but it is a good way to get to know about all of the sororities. I already have a few favorites. We only did half today and the other half is tomorrow but I like it so far. It’s a little awkward when you are’t connecting with people because you have to be there for 25 minutes but that only happened twice today so not too bad.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 20, 2009 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I dated a girl while she was going through formal recruitment. It was…interesting. But most of it probably had to do with the fact that she didn’t tell me she was doing it until it was almost over.
My mind is boggled by the politics of the event. At my school, girls dragged friends who had no interest in wasting a whole day (from their perspective) to the event so that the overall list of recruits would increase, thereby upping the number of bids that each sorority could offer, giving the girl doing the dragging a better shot at getting into the sorority of her choice. Which, if she was a freshman, she picked based on…a strained, 20-minute conversation where the sole topic of conversation was her name, hometown, and major – the stuff on her nametag.
I just think informal (what every fraternity gets to do) is so much better. I went out for pizza during rush with a frat. I liked them, realized that, for me, joining a frat would be a stupid idea, and parted ways. Still hang out with some of the guys.
There’s probably some very interesting sexism buried somewhere in the dramatic split between the processes, but I don’t have the willpower to decipher it.
Well with all the different rounds it’s more than a 20 minute converstaion by the end. They discourage doing it if you don’t want to because it is a huge time commitment and it is very stressful. Especially freshman year because you are trying to get used to classes and stuff. That’s why I waited a year. I also know a lot of people in sororities so I got to talk to them some and that was exciting. Outside of recruitment I can’t talk to them though. That part’s weird because some of them are my good friends. Today one of them asked me if I wanted to go to lunch and then both of us were like oh yeah we can’t do that this week.
The frats do have a fun recruitment process but I don’t think it would work as well for a lot of girls. I don’t think it’s sexist though because girls and boys are different. I, personally, would have a harder time with the smokers and more casual stuff just becasue I would have a harder starting conversations and meeting people. This way you’re forced to have a conversation with someone.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 20, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m just cynical about the whole thing. During that “can’t talk to people” phase, my floor RA first semester said “I encourage you all to rush and see if Greek Life is right for you. I’m in a frat, but I obviously can’t tell you which one, due to conflict of interest.” A week later, his frat has two dozen prospective pledges – and they’re all from his floor! Well, golly gee whiz.
We can know which one they’re in they just can’t talk to us. They are pretty strict about it. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen at all because I’m sure it does but if you’re caught you could get kicked out of recruitment so it’s a pretty big deal. We can say Hi and talk a little if we see them and stuff but we can’t talk about recruitment at all. I think it’s fun and silly. Which is me in a nutshell so it works out.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 21, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks. I’ve got sorority cheers in my head now. “I’m a Clemson Alpha Delta Pi, And I’ll be one til the day I die…” Over and over.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 21, 2009 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s seriously how it goes down for sororities? When I was a freshman I went to the fraternity houses on weeknights, bonged beers, and ate free food, and that was considered rushing. I don’t think we talked about Greek life once. I think I was asked to pledge based on my flip cup skills. Sometimes frats can be really pointless.
Steel Nick
Frats are really casual. They give freshman beer. Sororities have dry rush so no one can go out. Like I said I think it’s fun and a lot easier for me and I think a lot of other girls.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Sororities have dry rush so no one can go out
Ostensibly. I have attended one of these “dry” rushing events. Wouldn’t yah know, there was alcohol everywhere…
What dry rushng events? The rounds? There is no alcohol unless it’s in water botles. And I’m pretty sure there was no alcohol. I mean people can’t go out. You’re too exhausted anyway.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 21, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
See, this is one of those “what the rules say” and “what everyone does” things. I went to a quite clearly drinking party during sorority rush, with a couple prospective pledges in attendance.
Ahhhhh… parties still happen. Alcohol is still there. Pledges and sorority sisters can go if they want but they have people patrolling the parties. If they see you, you’re kicked out. Obviously hey don’t catch everyone but I’m sure they catch some people and that’s enough to make most girls stay home. Also the fact that you’re more exhausted than you’ve ever been that week helps too.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 21, 2009 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Where I went to school, going to a frat to drink was like buying an airplane for free peanuts.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
by USSChoo on Aug 21, 2009 2:23 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I went to one frat party only because I didn’t actually feel like doing anything and got dragged to it. I step on to the porch only to be talked up by a cute girl asking my name. I thought, “boy, this isn’t so bad.” When I informed her my name, she started crying, insisting this couldn’t be my name because, heaven forbid, her ex had the same name. Tears streaming down her face she told me she wouldn’t talk to me ever again unless I told her my name was something else. Never talking to that girl again was a gift from God himself. Oh, and the one lonely keg the frat had purchased was gone.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
You’re looking for this thread.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 21, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Southern frat boy outfit:
Button down shirt untucked with a pair of khaki shorts. Sperry’s. Sunglasses around your neck with one of those things, I think they’re called Croakies. Then to top it off the South Carolina Swoop hairstyle.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Agreed. That’s why I’ll be one of the sorority girls who doesn’t hang out with frat boys.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
Damn; I’m thinking rain could threaten LaPorta’s return.
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
tornado warning in lorain county… let’s see if this game happens
by gorilla_baller on Aug 20, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Don’t know, but you’re right—Figgins is damn good!
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 20, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
andy marte has zero errors at 3b…
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 20, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Sowers is still doing this with smoke and mirrors; he had five walks and two strikeouts tonight. I can’t imagine Jeremy has a future as a starter in the AL even if he’s occasionally able to cobble together a run of starts like he’s on now (32 IP and only 11 ER over his last 5 starts).
Didn’t have time to post this earlier, but I thought I’d comment on this. Andrew, this is actually similar to a discussion you and I had in my very first post.
As part of that thread, it’s commented that Sowers is perhaps unique enough that you can’t pigeon-hole him as having no chance to succeed due to his very low K rate. He’s different than your typical 88 mph guy. He’s got some late life on his fastball and has some deception. He jammed quite a few good hitters last night with that 88 mph fastball. Sowers perhaps has some ability to induce weak contact. It would be short-sighted to dump Sowers or move him to a long-relief role, especially when the Indians can afford to give him this chance. Sowers has really struggled in the middle innings and the third time through the lineup this year, but that wasn’t an issue in the past (correct me if I’m wrong). Let’s see if he can turn into a back-of-the-rotation starter, or maybe even into a middle-of-the-rotation guy.
I’ll agree that he can’t afford to walk 5 guys in an outing, but his confidence is growing and if he pounds the strike zone, he just might have a chance to succeed.
Wow, good memory.
I really don’t agree with you still, obviously. Sowers is the same or a worse version of the pitcher he was over the past three seasons (his K:BB is a career worst 1.03) and now he’s also 26. There’s no upside here that I can see.
I fundamentally do not believe that Sowers does a good job inducing “weak contact.” If you look at his batted ball stats, he has cycled between being a player who barely could be called a groundballer who gives up a ton of line drive and being a flyball pitcher who’s HR rate is unsustainable.
Neither of these are models for success, especially when viewed in the light of how many walks he gives up and his age.
Emphatically this.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 21, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
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