Game 127: Cleveland 5, Baltimore 4
by APV on Aug 27, 2009 10:49 PM EDT
in Game Recaps
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PrintFor eight innings and two outs it was a typical baseball game. Laffey was satisfactory, making it into the sixth before his questionable control on the evening caught up to him, leaving the game with three runs, two earned. Jess Todd relieved him and got into his own trouble, giving up a run in the 7th to put a fourth run on the board for Baltimore. Grady Sizemore led off the game with a HR to give Cleveland its first run, an Andy Marte triple in the fifth led to a second run, and a Choo double brought home a third run in the eighth.
And there was the game in the ninth inning, 4-3 Baltimore lead with Baltimore closer Jim Johnson on the mound. Valbuena grounded out to start the inning, followed by Peralta. And then recently recalled rookie Matt LaPorta came to the plate. LaPorta worked the count full, battling off a two-strike seventh pitch foul before hitting the eight pitch up the middle of the infield into center field for a single. That brought up Andy Marte with a man on, two outs, down by one, top of the ninth. Suddenly in the lineup everyday Andy Marte. Former top prospect Andy Marte. Famed domino player Andy Marte.
Ball one. Ball two. Ball three. Maybe he'll walk, put the game into Grady Sizemore's hands. Called strike one on the outside edge of the plate. Low and inside fastball Marte hits foul for strike two. Oh no, not another one of those games. Not another failed opportunity for Marte. Not that ending again. Nope. Andy Marte delivered the 3-2 pitch to the left field stands giving the Indians a one-run, ninth inning, come from behind lead. Kerry Wood then came through and delivered the bottom of the ninth for his 17th save on the season (and 42nd game finished, not that anyone's counting).
Next Up: Carmona vs. Berken, 7:05 pm
| Highest | WPA | Lowest | WPA |
| A. Marte | .798 | T. Hafner | -.217 |
| K. Wood | .209 | A. Laffey | -.113 |
| G. Sizemore | .145 | M. LaPorta | -.098 |
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Brantley with his 20th double and 42nd stolen base in Columbus’ 7-2 win. Carrasco 7 innings, 4 hits, 1 ER (2 R), 1 BB, 3 K
The Andy Marte video highlight on www.indians.com is great. There is something about rooting for Andy Marte that just feels right. Everyone loves an underdog.
apologies for the laziness implied by this question … has he ever started 8 straight in the bigs before?
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 27, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Marte’s played in 8 straight games, he’s gotten hits in all of them, going 12-29, with a double, triple and two HRs.
Especially when one considers Matt LaPorta’s showing.
"I can only root for fresh laundry. I HAVE STANDARDS AND A GOOD SENSE OF SMELL!" - Julie
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh I’ve never had a contrary opinion on Wedge—my disagreements have always been very minute details within a broader “Wedge is holding Marte down” or “Wedge needs to go” understanding.
Steel Nick
Should I? I think Wedge has been wrong for how he has handled Marte almost every step of the way, I think Marte deserves every chance and accolade he gets, and I think we need a new manager by December. Where I’m cautious—but in no way steadfast—in my opinion is this view that Wedge is being malicious. I think he’s just wrong.
Steel Nick
Seconded
There is a great need for a sarcasm font
by stuart dean on Aug 28, 2009 7:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Suddenly everything is crystal clear to me.
by Wil Cantrell on Aug 27, 2009 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Marte’s legacy with the Tribe will be the bringing down of Wedge. And that in itself will be enough of a gift.
by supermarioelia on Aug 27, 2009 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Mario, don’t get carried away. A 57-70 record brings down Wedge. All Marte does is reveal (once and for all) Wedge’s psychological crabbedness.
But at last that’s slowly getting revealed to the non-LGT masses.
by supermarioelia on Aug 28, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
This should have at least half the recs that Pedroia pic received.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 28, 2009 5:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Just stumbled across the battingstanceguy’s youtube channel, and he has a hilarious video recently added where he does some poses for Manny.
by supermarioelia on Aug 27, 2009 11:43 PM EDT reply actions
as long as he keeps hitting them, I don’t care how he does it. :)
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 28, 2009 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions
And by the way I do not hear him saying this as “Oh, yeah that was a mistake pitch”, but more like “You’re going to throw it over the plate? To me? That was a mistake, sir.”
The way I hear him is looking at Wedge while he says it and emphasizing the “mistake.”
-Kyle
by Kyle Garret on Aug 28, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Seriously, that HAS to be intentional. I hope it is, at least — he’s basically calling out Wedge for calling HIM out. Freaking awesome.
-Kyle
by Kyle Garret on Aug 28, 2009 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Um, it doesn’t HAVE to be intentional. From everything I’ve read of Marte he just likes to give the pitcher credit. He’s an “aw, shucks” kind of guy.
Steel Nick
Yeah. I like Kyle’s take, but everything we’ve heard from Andy is humble cliches.
by dgcambridge on Aug 28, 2009 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
How often is he in a position to do both — humble cliche AND a shot at Wedge?
But that’s why I followed it up with I HOPE it is. Because I really, really do.
-Kyle
by Kyle Garret on Aug 28, 2009 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I wouldn’t be surprised at the least if Marte was completely unaware of what Wedge said in the media the other day….
Johnson has a good two-seam fastball that he likes to run in on righties. He abused Peralta with it, and really gave LaPorta a hard time as well. But LaPorta worked the count full, and then Johnson went on the outer half and LaPorta took advantage. Great AB.
I thought Marte might match up well with Johnson because of the way he opens up. Marte can get his hands through and get the fat part of the bat on the ball…run right into his bat. But Johnson followed the scouting report and stayed away. Then he decided to come in on the 3-2 pitch and BAM! Great stuff.
One extra-base hit before KC. Four XBH’s plus one barely foul HR in four games since. Maybe someone should have told him to hit mistake pitches sooner…
Yeah does Wedge get any credit for actually calling it out that mistake pitches should be hit? But then, if he did intentionally wanted to inspire Marte and put everyone else on notice too, then that picture above would have been different.
But the entire lineup seems to do better at it, although this is only an impression I got, but despite himself, Wedge may have tickled Marte to wake up, and he did.
Did Wedge nearly arse up this game as well? Jamey Carroll, playing third just for the hell of it, mishandled two plays that nearly cost the game: a botched double-play feed that resulted in a run in the fifth, and a misplay on the slow roller in the ninth that allowed Pie to go to third. I didn’t see his error, so I won’t mention. I have come to appreciate Carroll’s play a lot, but where is it written that he has to play every day? I know Gimenez is currently in the running for most-reviled Indian, but wouldn’t it serve a purpose to have him play at third when Peralta needs a day off?
The best third baseman on this team … is Andy Marte. In fact, he is the only person on the roster who has ever played third base full-time for a whole season, which he has done in every season of his nine-year pro career.
Having said that, Jamey Carroll plays a very fine third base, and I can’t criticize Wedge for starting him there. He didn’t start last Saturday or Monday, and it’s pretty evident that they’re showcasing him at a lot of positions for a trade.
I’d like to think a trade is imminent, but if you’re looking to acquire Carroll why would you wait until August 31?
I understand the thinking in not playing Marte at third this evening, though.
I suppose it’s the same reason the Cubs wait until now to put players on waivers; Contention and the needs it requires aren’t clear to every team on August 1st.
Steel Nick
The Brewers also recently placed players on waivers.
"I can only root for fresh laundry. I HAVE STANDARDS AND A GOOD SENSE OF SMELL!" - Julie
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
My point was that Milwaukee waited until just a few days ago, when they were clearly out of it, to become a seller and place guys on waivers. As opposed to earlier in the month, when they thought they might be a buyer.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Carroll’s historically been a fine third baseman. I think it’s weird that you blame his play on Wedge.
Steel Nick
Carroll played a good third base last season after Blake was sent packing. But I think Wedge is overplaying Jamey—using him whenever and wherever he can. He’s had him in the outfield, and tonight at third.
Yes but my point is, if the player has shown better than average aptitude at a position, and you put him at that position, is it the manager’s fault if he makes an error? Are we to blame Wedge for playing Cabrera at short if he kicks a grounder? There’s really not a stretch of logic to see Carroll playing at third tonight; He plays well at third, and Peralta has played two full games and gone 0-for-both.
I don’t try to be a Wedge apologist, just a realist. Sometimes people here look for things. Wedge makes enough flagrant gaffs.
Steel Nick
Carroll has been good at third when he’s had a few games under his belt. If I were a scout in Camden Yards tonight and I was watching Carroll play third, I might reasonably come to the conclusion he isn’t good at that position (even though we know he is). This is speculation, but if Wedge’s hand has been forced with Marte and LaPorta, one of the few cards he has left to play is Jamey Carroll, which he seems to do, over and over. Again, I think the Indians would be better served to see Gimenez at third.
I guess I can only shrug at this. If it’s a choice between playing Gimenez and Carroll, I really can’t complain if Carroll gets the start.
Steel Nick
Holy cripes, I thought you were kidding so I checked it for myself. No joke.
by supermarioelia on Aug 28, 2009 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I love Jamey Carroll. He is much better than Cats. I’m going to play him over and over and over again.
"I can only root for fresh laundry. I HAVE STANDARDS AND A GOOD SENSE OF SMELL!" - Julie
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The outfield play has basically occurred because Crowe is hurt. At this point, if he wants to give Grady a day off, it’s either Carroll or Gimenez.
He’s playing against lefties at 2B. And he plays when Wedge wants to give Peralta or Cabrera a day off. That’s his job.
For about 10 more days…then the season in Columbus is over and I suspect we will see Brown and Brantley.
How many 3b could have converted that roller in the 9th? Not many.
There is a great need for a sarcasm font
by stuart dean on Aug 28, 2009 7:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hoping to catch highlights on BBTN, but who knows how long until they get around to Indians-Orioles.
Has Eric Young always been basically illiterate? I don’t know if he’s always this bad, but, well …
First, he says, “Kenny Williams made two big moves to bloster this lineup.” That’s not a typo, he actually said “bloster.”
Then, he starts using the word “they” for “their.” As in, “Those guys have to get they bats goin’.” And he does this another two or three times.
dude, it is so impossible to watch for so many reasons … but the fingernails-on-chalkboard that is eric young might be the least watchable. he’s always been the guy you describe, at least in my experience, and his voice has always been unlistenable, too.
other than that, he’s great.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
i don’t know if you ever experienced the gloriousness of emmitt smith on the nfl shows, but eric young is essentially his equal in stink. “bloster” sounds like a highlight, but he consistently butchers the queen’s english. on a side note, eduardo perez is horrible, too … he doesn’t make you cringe as much as young, but perez literally speaks for minutes at a time and says NOTHING … which means he’ll be promoted i’m sure.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
and then get super smoked by 102 heat from broxton. wow.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m willing to forgive Eduardo Perez because he brought us Asdrubal.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 8:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Amen. 108 PA and an OPS+ of 146 for Cleveland, then traded for Droobs, after which Perez put up an OPS+ of 46 in Seattle. I love that guy.
by dgcambridge on Aug 28, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
it’s more as a fan of verbal discourse that i object to eduardo
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Anytime Eric Young says anything my brother says,“Oh stop talking!” The second he opens his mouth.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 28, 2009 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree, but I haven’t see the highlight yet, and I’ve had it on.
by dgcambridge on Aug 28, 2009 12:52 AM EDT up reply actions
is this mitch williams on mlb? holy shintos
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I don’t know who it is at the end, next to him.
by dgcambridge on Aug 28, 2009 12:57 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s ok, you’ve probably never seen Hurdle, given where you live.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 28, 2009 2:05 AM EDT up reply actions
My post was sarc. dg lives where I do.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Aug 28, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I should have recognized him. He was little more metrosexual than usual though.
by dgcambridge on Aug 28, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Mitch kind of grows on you after a while. When I first saw him, I thought the same thing as you, but he’s pretty good.
No question. He won me over when he wsa analyzing highlights and they slipped him one of Joe Carter’s walk-off HR and he took it in stride.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
A couple of days ago, they were giving Joe Magrane crap about the HRs Rex Hudler hit off him. It was glorious.
Rex just might be the most annoying guy in the air. H has this all-caps way of talking combined with a sense of wonderment when he explains the mundane.
AND WHEN YOU HAVE THREE STRIKES ON YOU THEN, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO LEAVE THE BATTERS BOX AND NOT COME BACK AGAIN UNTIL IT IS YOUR NEXT AT BAT!
There is a great need for a sarcasm font
by stuart dean on Aug 28, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I really love the MLB Network. The analysis isn’t any more in-depth, but there are fewer gimmicks and fewer really stupid things being said. It also seems like the guys on there genuinely enjoy what they do and with whom they’re doing it; BBTN is just flat-out painful.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
Unfortunately I don’t have MLB Network yet because I have the Dish Network and they haven’t picked it up yet. I’ve been heckling them about it all year but nothing has happened so far.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions
This is what Rob Schneider calls people making copies whose names he doesn’t know.
by Logodaedalus on Aug 28, 2009 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow, I haven’t heard his voice in a long time.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Aug 28, 2009 5:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Just showed a nice Asdrubal play … giving Eduardo crap YET AGAIN about the trade … joke never gets old.
do you have bbtn on dvr? i can’t seem to find it, and espnnews hasn’t carried the tribe so far.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions
jay, i say this fondly … i expect more from you.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 12:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Ball one. Ball two. Ball three. Maybe he’ll walk, put the game into Grady Sizemore’s hands. Called strike one on the outside edge of the plate. Low and inside fastball Marte hits foul for strike two. Oh no, not another one of those games. Not another failed opportunity for Marte. Not that ending again. Nope.
I didn’t notice the byline and I thought Ryan wrote this. That’s a very sincere compliment.
by fleerdon on Aug 28, 2009 12:44 AM EDT reply actions
“Our two kids really battled,” Wedge said. “LaPorta did a great job shooting that single up the middle. And so did Andy.”
Wedge went on: Matthew Vincent LaPorta, born Port Charlotte, FL, was wonderful in matriculating himself down to first base and providing our team with additional opportunities to win the baseball game. And, uh, the guy who came after him…you know, what’s his name…with the bat and the glove and the hat…the guy I wanted to pinch hit for. He plays baseball, too.
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 12:53 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It was around 2pm on a lovely sunny Friday afternoon, I had to be somewhere but delayed it so I could watch the last rites of the tribe innings via ESPN Gamecast, didn’t have the game thread open because you guys often spoil the excitement before it has happened, a blue dot, a hit, quickly looks to the side scoreboard, red border around the game score, a run is scored, how I wonder to myself, then the imaginery ball starts to soar across the screen and into the stands, home run, punches the air, expletive Andy Marte, expletive, expletive Andy Marte, Andy expletive Marte. Madly trying to bring up the game thread to read what everyone had to say. Tried watching Wood’s 9th innings on Gamecast in the end had to follow it via the thread to painful to watch what was unfolding,
As a side note was driving across the harbour bridge mid morning listening to the sports station, they were talking rugby, at the end of the interview one of the guys a Rangers fan gave one of the others obviously a Yankees fan stick about beating them earlier in the day, the radio host then announced he was a tribe fan and how disappointing the season had been for him, as I yelled at the radio Grady’s lead off with a home run, there 1 nothing up.
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on Aug 28, 2009 4:18 AM EDT reply actions 5 recs
We are supposed to hear on a Pavano PTBNL, if there is one, by Sept. 1st, I think
by APV on Aug 28, 2009 7:18 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
more like cash
The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow
by gorilla_baller on Aug 28, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
or just a steaming pile of scrappiness
The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow
by gorilla_baller on Aug 28, 2009 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Thanks for the new sig.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Hmmmm, tough call…
There is a great need for a sarcasm font
by stuart dean on Aug 28, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
the “slow” molina
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Rare Centuple Play Ends Mets’ Season
MIAMI—In a sudden end to a trying year, the Mets’ Jeff Francoeur lined into a rare centuple play against the Florida Marlins Wednesday, which by rule cut New York’s season short. “I hit it on the screws, but it just happened to be in a spot where they could turn a hundred,” said Francoeur, who watched helplessly as Marlins second baseman Dan Uggla tagged everyone in the Mets dugout before heading into the clubhouse and tagging both equipment manager Charlie Samuels and physical therapist John Zajac. “You take a risk by starting the runners but I didn’t think he’d have enough time to run up to the executive suite and get [Mets GM] Omar [Minaya] and [team owner] Fred [Wilpon]. I guess by the 80th out we’d all just given up.” This was the most outs recorded on a single play since the 2004 Montreal Expos were eradicated from the league after hitting into an ∞-play.
I was at a Mets game about 2 weeks ago and all of the fans within my vicinity were raving about how great Francoeur was, and how great Minaya was for fleecing the Braves to get him.
Mets game
New York game in general
In their defense though, Francoeur has been hitting above his career norms for them.
Two Mets favorites from when I lived in NYC
METS stands for “My Entire Team Sucks” and
Q: Do you know who hits after Todd Zeile?
A: The other team
There is a great need for a sarcasm font
by stuart dean on Aug 28, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
i had a similar experience with a bunch of drunk guys from jersey while we were tailgating… francoeur was supposed to lead them to the promised land or something
The eagle never lost so much time as when he submitted to learn from the crow
by gorilla_baller on Aug 28, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Put a guy on the cover of SI and fans will think he’s great for as long as he’s playing. Francour has to be the most overrated player in baseball. Bruce Hooley, who hosts an afternoon radio show in Columbus (and used to work for the PD) thought the Indians should have traded CC for Jeff Francour. Seriously. He thought the Indians messed up by getting prospects from the Brewers when they could have got an established guy like Francour. He was still complaining about this earlier this season.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
According to WPA, Marte and Wood did enough to win the game by themselves if nobody else had shown up. We just have to find 23 guys who are willing to get out of the way of that tag-team wrecking crew and we’re going all the way next year.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
by Joel D on Aug 28, 2009 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
It’s a shame we didn’t have a doubleheader.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
by Joel D on Aug 28, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Unless Jeter is playing, then it only takes .400 WPA to win the game. Jeter is such a winner that he adds .100 WPA simply by being on the field.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I actually think Crowe will make a nice 4th OF when he comes back. If you have Brantley, Sizemore and Choo in the OF LaPorta needs to play 1B. Also, now that Hafner is officially washed up (nice bunched poor ABs filled with Ks and dribblers back to the mound) the DH spot will eventually go to Weglarz or Mills (or Giminez :).
I also get a bang out of Hamilton’s Ichiroing of our RF.
“Starting in LF is Matt LaPorta, with Grady Sizemore in center and CHOO in RF.”
He has dropped the rest of his name — CHOO has officially arrived!
You do not have the authority to declare Hafner officially washed up, especially considering we are two games removed from him going 3 for 5 with a HR and a 2B. If you have an opinion please do not present it as fact.
Steel Nick
You do not have the authority to declare Hafner officially washed up.
In fairness, I don’t think many of us have the authority to declare anything here.
I declare that I would like a very large beer.
by FredOx on Aug 28, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I’m not sure what you mean by “nice 4th OF.” Crowe is a fast guy who basically can’t hit in the majors, who in fact never really hit all that well in the minors. If that’s a nice 4th OF, then I guess he’ll be one.
Brantley looks like he’s at least a year away. Hafner being discarded is also at least a year away, and it sure as hell won’t be to make room for Mills or Gimenez at DH.
So what is a “nice 4th OF” then? Right now there are 22 OFs in MLB given over 200 PAs to put up a sub .700 OPS, Crowe obviously has to improve with the bat, but it doesn’t take a whole lot for him to become Scott Podsednik, and that guy belongs in the majors, right?
I guess it depends on whether you think he’s a 700 OPS guy or a 600 OPS guy. I agree that we can definitely live with the former. It would be nice to do better, but we shouldn’t pay to do so.
His current MLE at Columbus is right around 700.
by dgcambridge on Aug 28, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
This also completely ignores the Marte/Peralta/LaPorta conundrum between first and third that moving LaPorta onto the infield creates. Other than that and what the half-dozen other people who commented before me have said, you’ve made a really good point.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
Yeah, but let’s worry about such conundrums when they happen. Seems like they often disappear through injury or suck. Though its hard to ignore the potential at catcher.
by dgcambridge on Aug 28, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry to everyone here who has a baseball IQ apparently 300 points higher than mine. I actually was under the impression that opinions were welcomed here.
I wasn’t ignoring anything. My observation was made with the idea that the team is looking at Brantley as a leadoff guy who plays LF, and with Grady entrenched in CF and Choo in RF. That doesn’t leave much for LaPorta other than 1B or DH.
If Marte and Peralta are standing in Matt LaPorta’s way we are in trouble.
As for Crowe, he’s fast and a good defender. No, he doesn’t have great numbers but that’s why he wouldn’t play every day.
If you prefer to pile on, I can just sit back and read all your posts so I can improve my understanding of the game of baseball.
oh, and Hafner IS washed up. You can’t have that many PATHETIC at bats consistently and blame it on his shoulder. He’s a DH for crying out loud and he can’t play more than 3-4 times a week? He is looking completely lost at times for long stretches. It’s his huge game that you referred to that was the anomaly. We’re fine anyway, we have Andy Marte…
I actually was under the impression that opinions were welcomed here.
They are completely welcome. And that includes opinions of other people’s opinions. It’s just something you have to get used to, things that we say are going to get scrutinized.
I don’t think anyone really believes that Peralta or Marte can stand in LaPorta’s way.
It’s not clear to me that Crowe is a good defender, although he is fast, but I can’t prove he isn’t. We’ll let time sort this one out.
It’s frustrating to have a DH that can only play a few games a week, but that frustration isn’t part of any real analysis of his situation. He seems to see the ball well, and when he’s rested, he seems to hit it a lot harder. Overall, he’s been a pretty good hitter this year, but as with Ryan Garko, just being pretty good is well short of where he needs to be. I just think there have been enough flashes of his old abilities to wait and see if he needs less rest next year, and if that translates to a return to his old hitting abilities. Given the state of the club, there’s no real reason not to give him another year — he still hits better than Jordan Brown.
There’s a difference between Chuck using it to argue that someone who’s never been above-average is actually good, and me pointing out that Hafner isn’t “pathetic.”
In his heyday Pronk was hammering to the tune of .300 BA / 30-35 HR / 100+ RBI / 400+ OBP / .600 SLG / 1.000 OPS
These days he’s on pace for .273 / 19 HR / 57 RBI / .348 OBP / .484 SLG / .833 OPS
My point was that he has looked incredibly fooled at the plate in large quantity. Say what you want about his inconsistent playing time. In my opinion he’s not going to improve.
You mean Hafner’s not as good as he used to be? Inconceivable.
He’s still a better option at DH in 2010 than any of the guys you suggested. Even at his pace this year, he’d have 25+ HR in a typical number of PA, and there’s no reason to believe he won’t be able to play regularly next year. He’s also striking out less this year than he did in his heyday. Again, no one’s saying Hafner’s not going to suck. We’re just saying it’s premature to say he’s “washed up.”
And I’d advise against using batting average or RBI in your argument.
Actually, that’s not true at all. My opinion is that given a normal off-season, which Hafner hasn’t had in quite some time, he’ll come back next year and have a very good season. He won’t be the same player he was in 2005 or 2006, but let’s be frank, not many guys are going to put up numbers like that. Now, it’s entirely possible that Hafner will be terrible. If so, then c’est la vie. This team’s not winning anything next year anyway.
That’s really not even remotely the same thing as saying Hafner should be benched in favor of Beau F Mills, or that Weglarz should jump to Cleveland next year, because Hafner is washed up.
It strikes me as odd how we really haven’t gotten any clarity on Hafner over the course of this season. He remains an enigma. He is on pace to deliver a season amazingly similar to his 2003 season. His OBP this season is well below his career numbers, and he’s not delivering enough doubles or homers to be a primary DH for a good team.
About 10% of Hafner’s PA have resulted in an XBH (actually 9.8%). That’s the same as Kubel, Scott and Ortiz, and better than Thome, Guillen and Thames. That says less about Hafner than it does about the quality at the DH position this year.
I don’t have a problem with his XBH ability. My problem is that he has fewer PA. I understand he’s coming off surgery, but does anyone really think that Haf would be able to play alot more next year?
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
This is actually my biggest question too. I’m fine with a .820ish OPS, but if he still can’t play 3 days in a row, and he can’t play a defensive position, it is a pretty big waste of a roster spot.
And a bunch of money that could have been used to re-sign Vic or Lee….
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Just wanted to put it out there…
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
What part of sunk cost isn’t evident here?
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions
My point was that he has looked incredibly fooled at the plate in large quantity. Say what you want about his inconsistent playing time. In my opinion he’s not going to improve.
What, in your opinion, distinguishes Hafner from the last 32 games that Victor played as an Indian?
Hafner has not had a stretch of games that bad all year. Has Hafner really looked more incredibly fooled in the last few games, or weeks or whatever you think it is, than Victor did in those last 32 games?
“He looks fooled at the plate” is something people seem to say a lot, and I have no idea what it means. Every player has bad stretches. Pujols had a 15 game stretch with an OPS approaching 500. There’s a lot to criticize about Hafner, but his SO% is down and his LD% is the highest it’s ever been.
Maybe he’s trying to pull the ball too much.
What it means is exactly what it says. He “looks” fooled at the plate. He has a bad habit of swinging at breaking pitches low and inside and often times trying to check the swing really late. It looks terrible. Like he has no clue. He is not even close on these pitches. I think it has less to do with his stats that how bad he looks and therefore people’s perception of him.
Maybe he always looked bad on strikeouts and swings and misses in his career. And its not to say he won’t hit the next pitch for a XBH. But it does “look” bad.
That’s what I find a bit ridiculous. In 2008 when we were declaring Hafner “done” it was because he was literally guessing on every pitch and being exposed while doing it. Not catching up to fastballs and not punishing off-speed stuff.
So, while he has struggled this year, it has been due to weak contact or getting screwed by the shift. Typical stuff that happens to every slugger.
Yeah, but the shift is due to the league ‘adjusting’ to Haf’s swing. Now isn’t it time for him to ‘adjust’ back?
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure, if your goal is for Hafner to hit less home runs and have a higher batting average.
Is that what you want out of Hafner?
mostly i just want to see more smiles out of him…
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t really care if he hits more than 15-20 HRs anymore, what I expect and hope for are RBI. He only has 30+ RBI with 12 HR, that’s not that great of a ratio….
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Because it’s his fault people weren’t on base ahead of him? What’s worse than an idiot stat? Because that’s what RBI is.
RBI is Runs Batted In. I completely understand that. I also understand that Hafner’s AVG with RISP is .234. His SLG% is .442. With RISP and 2 out, he’s hitting .182!! From a DH that can’t play the field or play more than 4 consec. days?!?!?
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
*Actually, he’s only hitting .114 with RISP and 2 out, I listed the bases loaded stat for RISP and 2 down….
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
We know what RBI means around here.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Then you should be fully aware that Hafner is not producing any…
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
So is Ryan Garko a better player than Hafner because he has a lot of RBI?
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
He is more clutch….
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope your next post reveals that this was all very tongue-in-cheek, or else you’re not going to last long around here without making some adjustments.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
You mean no one else can tell when I’m being sarcastic???
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
sometimes sarcasm and ill-informed certainty can look like twin sons of different mothers.
There is a great need for a sarcasm font
How is it ill-informed when I give you stats to back it up?
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
You were almost off the hook when you claimed you were being sarcastic, but now you’re working your way back to looking like an idiot. It’s ill-informed because the main stat you quoted (RBI) is an idiot stat. You then backed it up with numbers whose sample size must be so small as to be laughable. That, in a nutshell, is why no one is taking you seriously.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
How is RBI an idiot stat when what you need to WIN is runs batted in? I don’t get it….
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Let me scrape this one up again…
The ultimate idiot stat – RBI’s. If you put enough people in base in front of a blind monkey, RBI’s result. I will just use one prime exhibit. Joe Carter hit .232 in 1990 with a .290 OBP and a .391 SLG average leading to a .681 OPS. Admittedly ignoring historical context, this mark is roughly over a hundred points below what Jamey Carrol (Jamey Carrol!) is producing for the Indians today. In that year of 1990, Joe drove in 115 runs and therefore probably got your MVP vote. Here’s the rub, Jamey Carrol might have driven more runs that year if he would have replaced Joe and he would have gotten your MVP vote. Why? Plain and simple – because he had a surfeit of runners on when he came to the plate. Hitting ahead of him that year with there OBP’s were Bip Roberts .375, Roberto Alomar .340 and Tony Gwynn .357. Joe was the proverbial blind squirrel who found the nut but you would have been lauding him.
There is a great need for a sarcasm font
great use of surfeit. a personal favorite
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 28, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but in Victor’s defense, HE had trade rumors to worry about… Granted, as a player you’re supposed to block that out, but he loved the organization. I’m concerned about Haf, because he can’t play more than 4 days straight, and after an off day, particularly, he looks lost.
Here’s hoping next year he can play more regularly and contribute more…
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
After an off-day Hafner’s OPS is .861. Everyone’s opinion of Hafner seems colored by perception, more so that just about anybody on this roster.
Yep, and Vic’s on pace for .290 / 26 HR / 109 RBI with all numbers pretty much on pace with his career numbers.
Perception has a ton to do with it. Hafner is an overpaid DH who can play about half his team’s games, he is underperforming compared to his career numbers, is at an age when bulky slow DH types decline and is battling injuries and (unspoken, shh) certain possibilities of being on some list somewhere. While Victor plays a demanding position and, while he went through a bad stretch, still is on target to match or better his career numbers. That just speaks to how ridiculously GOOD he was earlier in the season.
But he’s not washed up. “Now, it’s entirely possible that Hafner will be terrible. If so, then c’est la vie. This team’s not winning anything next year anyway.”
Well, ok then …
Bringing the “unspoken” possibilities into this seems a bit silly. Why wouldn’t Victor be battling these same possibilities?
Again … your disgust with the overall situation has nothing to do with analyzing it.
“Hafner is an overpaid DH” … doesn’t mean he’s washed up.
“can play about half his team’s games” … present-tense … doesn’t mean he’s washed up.
“at an age when bulky slow DH types decline” … actually is wrong in about three different ways, since Hafner isn’t bulky, isn’t slow, and many big sluggers who are well-rounded hitters continue to slug well into their 30’s.
My point in bringing Victor in wasn’t to compare the two, only to compare their worst stretches, to show that a guy “looking bad” in the short term doesn’t necessarily mean anything.
Hafner isn’t bulky, isn’t slow, and many big sluggers who are well-rounded hitters continue to slug well into their 30’s
Not anymore, he’s not. When was the last time he “slugged well?” Oh, yeah, back when he WAS bulked up. Why isn’t he bulked up now? Because it wasn’t good for him, so I hear.
I don’t believe Hafner’s slugging prowess had much to do with his being bulky, and I’ll leave it to more knowledgeable people to flesh out the reasons. And he was never slow, as anyone who actually paid attention to the player — rather than just typecasting him — would realize.
I’m finally beginning to sense the story line here. (1) Hafner was juicing (2) in order to get a big contract, but (3) once he got the big contract he stopped juicing and (4) now he’s not worth the money. How we get from there to replacing him with Beau Mills, I’m not sure.
There is no basis whatsoever for calling Hafner a juicer. It’s purely circumstantial—like calling him slow and lumbering—and should be rejected out of hand.
That is what I inferred from his post about being on a certain list. And the only basis I could remotely see for Hafner is that we got him from Texas, where it definitely seemed like roids came right after wind sprints.
Hafner played 23 games for Texas in the last two months of 2002 during which time he OPSed .716 in 70 plate appearances with 1 homer.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said, the only basis I could see is that we got him from Texas…and last I checked there isn’t much reputed about their steroid use, a lot of their big players have been caught in some form or another.
Who’s been caught? I’m not challenging you. I don’t normally follow all the PED nonsense. so I don’t know. A-Rod? And have any of their players actually “been caught”?
I am mostly referring to A-Rod, Palmero, and Juan Gone. All of them have been caught in some form or another. Gary Matthews Jr There are also some fairly obvious ones from the 90’s that Canseco has mentioned to using.
It could be said that Texas was rocking the roids from the early 90’s up until just a few years back. So while Hafner was gone once they started taking the preliminary tests he still came from that system. Like I said though, this small anecdotal evidence is the only basis I can see for him being a possible steroid user.
It’s looking for a story to explain what appears to be inexplicable. And few of the real PED guys look like Mark McGwire. They’re more likely to look like Raffy Betancourt.
It’s not his OPS or his LD rate that’s at issue: it’s the results. He’s 12th (out of 21) in extra base hits, behind such luminaries as Mike Jacobs, Andruw Jones, Ken Griffey, Luke Scott and Aubrey Huff.
Is that adjusted for plate appearances? Pronk spent a lot of time on the DH earlier in the season.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
It seems to me that this is the point that people are making: He’s playing sporadically and isn’t hitting enough when he does play to make up for the fact that he can’t play a solid week of games.
I’m not saying I agree with it, just seems to be the tone.
So, the only way to justify Pronk playing 3 or 4 games a week would be to OPS .900+ during those three or four games?
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there’s some fallacy here. A guy hitting well in limited time isn’t as valuable as a guy who hits less well full time. Total bases.
Therefore, Pronk is less valuable than Luke Scott? Please.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions
My mistake was not questioning your fallacious assumption that quantity is better than quality. OPS and LD% are just as valid to measure results as idiot counting stats.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:13 PM EDT up reply actions
A man what bats 1.000 in two at bats has extraordinary quality. Plus, Luke Scott has a higher OPS than Hafner.
OK. Luke Scott, right now, is .005 OPS better than Hafner.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
In how many more ABs?
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesn’t matter.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Correction – .004 OPS better than Hafner.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
And tonight, if Luke Scott goes ofer and Hafner goes 2 for 4 with a homer, is Hafner a better player than Luke Scott?
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
collectively or individually?
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Collectively they are the determining factor in winning games. Individually, runs scored indicate a good leadoff hitter.
My point is you can fiddle around all you want with line drive rates and any other metric that shows how awesome a hitter is, but if he can’t perform it doesn’t matter.
How is hitter not performing if he’s putting up a good OPS and hitting line drives? Seriously. Tell me this.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Here’s my straw man: A hitter has an OPS of .980 and is hitting line drives at a 27.5% rate (which matches the highest line-drive rate of the past five seasons, held by the incomparable Freddy Sanchez). But he’s had 90 total plate appearances. When he plays he performs. When he doesn’t play, he doesn’t perform. With only 90 PAs, he doesn’t perform more often than he does.
So, you’re saying that the only at bats that ever matter for anyone are those at bats with RISP and we should just throw those other at bats out?
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry, I was taking the 90 PAs from another part of this thread. So, if Albert Pujols only had 90 plate appearances in a season, that would mean he would be a no-good, underperforming bum?
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
See, there you go arguing quantity over quality again.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
My point is, WHEN is he putting up a good OPS and hitting line drives? Is he putting up line drives and a good OPS with RISP, or just when he’s batting with no one on?
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
If there are any variances in when he hits it’s only due to small sample size. Players generally hit the same whethe the bases are empty or loaded, whether there is no outs or two outs, whether it’s the first inning or the ninth inning.
If you’re trying to argue that Hafner isn’t a “clutch hitter” then good luck proving that one.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions
So it’s okay for him to ‘be leading the team in OPS’ and that’s all great and dandy. But when I say he ’doesn’t hit well with RISP’, it’s a small sample size?
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Where there is a big difference between looking at data for the whole year and looking at only a small percentage of at-bats from that year. If you can’t realize that then I can’t help you.
Also, there is no such thing as a “clutch hitter”. As I said above, given enough at-bats, players will generally perform the same in clutch situations as all other situations. That’s been shown over and over again.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions
So, what you’re saying is, is that you don’t mind Hafner being paid 11.5 million dollars to hit .273, with 19 HR and 57 RBI?
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Where did I say anything like that? Are you changing the subject because you know your “he doesn’t hit in the clutch” argument is futile?
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, you seem to think that Hafner’s projections are okay because he’s got a high OPS and one of the best HR/AB ratio….
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said any of those things. You must be confusing me with someone else.
Hafner isn’t hitting like player who’s being paid as much as he is, you’re right. But that doesn’t mean he is “washed up” as you stated. He still has a chance to be a productive hitter. He will never reach his numbers from 2004-06 again but very, very few hitters every reach that level.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I never said he was ‘washed up’. I simply claimed that he’s not producing the way that I would expect someone that is getting paid what he is. I too hope that next year he can be more productive and also more of a presence in the everyday to semi-everyday lineup.
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
My mistake, it was Halifax who called him washed up, not you.
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, second. SORRY!!
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, third, if you count the ‘sample size’ of Josh Barfield.
Tribe in '09!!
by indiansfan20062000 on Aug 28, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Individually, runs scored indicate a good leadoff hitter.
Only runs scored when leading off indicate that!
Yes, I suppose that’s true. I hadn’t thought it through. Does this mean you believe runs to be an idiot counting stat?
And, to pursue this further: What is the best indicator of a leadoff hitter? Runs scored when leading off, or OPS when leading off?
OBP when leading off, of course.
In fact, I think you’d find that OBP when leading off is among the most strongly correlated stat/split combos to run scoring overall.
Yes, but here there is skill involved. Rickey Henderson got on base a lot, but he also stole bases and was otherwise a shrewd runner. So he scored more runs than a “normal” baserunner. If Ryan Garko had the same OBP as Rickey (!), he wouldn’t score as many runs. So why isn’t RS the preferred metric?
Because unless you hit a home run or steal home, you can’t drive yourself in. Conversely, unless you hit a home run, you can’t get an RBI with nobody on base ahead of you. Both RBI and RS are flawed as player evaluation metrics because they depend on what other players do.
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 29, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Not entirely true. If a baserunner manages to get to third base with fewer than two outs, there are a number of ways to score—actions dependent on other players, yes, but not as passively as RBIs. A baserunner can significantly increase the chances of his scoring. There is (I think, I didn’t look it up) a higher correlation between RS/OBP than RBI/slugging.
This season, 17,840 runs had been scored through yesterday. There are only 16,999 RBI credited, so that means that 841 runs scored with no particular help from the batter on that play. Another 4,067 runs scored by a batter on his own home run. That leaves at least 12,932 runs scored with significant help from another batter, which is 72.5% of all runs scored.
A batter who reaches on an error and then scores is credited with a Run Scored. A batter who reaches on a fielder’s choice, eliminating a batter already on base, also is eventually credited with a Run Scored, even though he was not credited with getting on base.
In fact, even if a runner hits into a fielder’s choice, reaching 1B as a runner from 3B is eliminated, he still will be credited with a Run Scored, even though he actually made a negative contribution to the team’s run scoring efforts.
Runs Scored is simply not a reliable attributor of credit for the scoring of a run.
If Ryan Garko had the same OBP as Rickey (!), he wouldn’t score as many runs. So why isn’t RS the preferred metric?
Your question relates to individual player evaluation, right? Isn’t this Chapter 1 of Moneyball*?
The problem with player evaluation was, “Who actually helps the team win the most?” So first the question is, “What can a team do that correlates the most to winning?” That was found to be scoring runs. So the next question was, “What does a player do that correlates the most to scoring runs?” And the answer was, “Getting on base,” or “Not making an out,” or however you want to word it.
The problem with Runs is it’s not a predictive stat, even though it’s the most important stat for winning (I mean, besides grit). People for the most part are still scoring because of the contributions of teammates. So we look at the rate stat that suggests a player has what it takes to be in a position to score often.
This is what you’re asking, right?
*I don’t mean Moneyball as a synonym for sabermetrics, or some kind of theory, I just mean the actual book.
Steel Nick
And now you have your own fallacy. Total bases is fine, but you act like when the limited-playing-time guy isn’t playing, all his would-be PA turn into outs. Some of them turn into total bases even if you plug in a backup catcher.
That’s true, but if you plug in a backup catcher you’re more likely to get Jeff Larish than Adam Lind. There is significant fall-off from a frontline guy to a backup DH.
Right, but backup catcher is an extreme example. Typically, the club will have a guy to plug in who is something close to an average hitter, especially if they can play platoon against the opposing starter. Being un-durable is a bad thing, obviously, but total bases doesn’t equate directly to value.
Of course it’s not. And that’s the crux of the argument. Hafner’s playing time has been carefully managed this year. If he’s still only playing 3-4 days a week next year, then fine. But I don’t think that will be the case.
If he’s still only playing 3-4 days a week next year, then fine. But I don’t think that will be the case.
That doesn’t sound very factual. But his inability to play is one thing that makes him on the verge of being “washed up”. By that I mean he will never again play up to any kind of standard he himself has set, be it due to age, injury or “other”, he is in serious decline.
Not factual? He started 15 games in April, 0 in May, 12 in June. That’s bad. But then 19 in July and 19 so far in August. His playing time is increasing as the season goes on and he’s gotten stronger. What 2010 will bring is anyone’s guess; maybe he has an opening day injury like Vic did. But there’s every reason to believe he’ll play more than 3-4 times a week.
And not being the Hafner of 2005-06 doesn’t mean he’s washed up. It means he’s human. There has to be some middle ground between “sucks” and “Pujols.”
But there’s every reason to believe he’ll play more than 3-4 times a week.
I want to believe this to be true, but the only basis I’ve had for this is Hamilton and Hegan talking about it. Are there compelling reasons to believe this to be true?
How can he be in “decline” when all his numbers are better than last year’s, and his rate stats are comparable to the year before?
Because the last truly “good” year he had was 2006.
Last year he was terrible. How could he not outperform that one.
Hafner’s 2006 was not merely good. He led the league in OPS and slugging percentage. He slugged .659. His OPS+ was 179. That was a monster year. Do you really think given his injuries that he will ever approach those numbers again?
A steaming pile of scrappiness
by woodsmeister on Aug 28, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions
So he’s in decline from his best year ever? He’s not the best hitter in the AL any more? He must be washed up!
by Buckeye Brad on Aug 28, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Exactly right. Nothing adjusted. If he can’t get more PAs next year, he’s no better than Ken Griffey. (That sounds harsh.)
I don’t think your defense holds up all that well, but that doesn’t matter, because I was not being critical of Victor.
What I was saying is that lots of perfectly good hitters go through periods where they appear to be lost. Hafner was hot just a few days ago, and his overall season certainly has not been “pathetic.” If he looks lost for a few days, well, that happens to everyone.
He is looking completely lost at times for long stretches.
Oh, you mean like this guy?
This is why when we talk about our emotions, they’re just emotions … and we try not to confuse them with actual insight.
If you’re going to be here (or most anywhere on the internet), you have to accept that sometimes your observations are wrong or your memory is wrong (I’m guilty of this all the time) and your ego will be bruised in the process of learning why you are wrong.
Some people will take your 200 word post and only nitpick one sentence out of it. Sometimes people do that to invalidate all of your points and sometimes people do that just to correct something they have a problem with. Don’t take it personal and don’t get frustrated by it.
Anyways, onto Crowe. You are right. He is a guy with some special ability, but it translates into being a 25th guy. Just a body. But you should never confuse that as something of VALUE. He’s Jason Tyner or Josh Barfield.
Q: What do you do to an elephant with three balls?
A: Walk it and pitch to the rhino
That’s a joke.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
by Joel D on Aug 28, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Last helpful tidbit: At the bottom of each post there is an action button “reply” it allows you to string together a thread of comments, so we know who you are responding to easier.
Honestly though, you don’t. If you want to make a statement that you are convinced is fact, throw a reason why in there… Which you’ve clearly been drawn into doing upthread already. Back up an opinion that is subjective. And it is subjective.
Steel Nick
We’ve now spent too much time talking about Travis Hafner. A dog in a Partay Hat:
by FredOx on Aug 28, 2009 4:49 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Sizemore CF, Cabrera SS, Choo RF, peralta 3B, Hafner DH, Valbuena 2B, LaPorta LF, Marte 1B, Toregas C, Carmona RHP
per Castrovince
A steaming pile of scrappiness
So because there are about 50 more comments in the Pronk subthread that I am not going to read… on to something else…
The Los Angeles Angels, looking to bolster their rotation for the last five weeks of the season and in October, are close to completing a deal for left-hander Scott Kazmir of the Tampa Bay Rays, according to sources.
…
MLB.com is reporting that the Rays will receive two prospects: pitcher Alexander Torres and third baseman Matthew Sweeney.
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
08/28/09 5:06 PM ET ANAHEIM — A proposed trade that would have sent Rays left-hander Scott Kazmir to the Angels for a pair of prospects has fallen through. Multiple reports had the Angels set to acquire Kazmir in a move aimed to bolster their beleaguered starting rotation. The Rays were to get pitcher Alexander Torres and third baseman Matthew Sweeney in return. Kazmir is 8-7 this season with a 5.92 ERA in 20 starts for the Rays.
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