Game Thread: August 6, 2009
by Ryan on Aug 6, 2009 11:45 AM EDT
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PrintMinnesota Twins at Cleveland Indians, Aug 6, 2009 12:05 PM EDT
Minnesota at Cleveland, 12:05 PM
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Only 18 Ks in 7 games? That’s rather un-Tribe-like…
by Logodaedalus on Aug 6, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Yea, that’s a puzzling thing. Usually the guys that kills us rack up the double digit K’s. We must be hitting a bunch of ground balls.
plus I guess you can pencil in 3 or 4 popups per Ryan Garko start….
by Logodaedalus on Aug 6, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Gimenez
Gimenez is batting 6th again. Now his avg is under .200, and I have no idea why he should be in the lineup on the regular basis. In my opinion, 2010 young pitching staff needs a veteran catcher, and Shoppach can do the job. Gimenez, Toregas or Marson won’t be an answer. Shoppach is playing twice a week. I really don’t get it.
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
by westbrook on Aug 6, 2009 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Where’s TribeJay? Remember this conversation?
http://www.letsgotribe.com/2009/7/5/938564/wedge-wont-be-fired-midseason#17879812
-Erik
Yes, I’m disappointed that Marte wasn’t in the lineup today. He shouldn’t be sitting at the expense of Gimenez/Crowe. Other than situations where he’s really struggling or just needs an occasional day off, he needs to be in there. I do think he’ll eventually see more time than Gimenez, but I’m starting to get worried about Crowe.
I like what I’ve seen from Marte so far…not flailing away at pitches, probably because he’s shortened his swing. But I expected to see this based on his AAA numbers.
Not sure how this exactly relates to that prior discussion, but there you have it.
My personal, and probably emotional, opinion is that:
1. Wedge doesn’t like Marte
2. As such, he refuses to play Marte.
Roll your eyes all you want, but there is an awful lot of very troubling past data on his playing time that we struggled for months to rationalize. I eventually gave up trying to come up with a logical reason, because one just didn’t exist. Ultimately, I still believe that Wedge will not play him given any other option.
-Erik
My “roll my eyes” comment was directly referring to this:
“Hafner at 1st, Vic at 2nd, Gimenez at SS and Garko at 3rd”
Obviously you were being facetious, but still…not “liking” Marte is probably a bit too simplistic for me.
Sure, I was being facetious, but today is just another example that doesn’t make any sense. The 3 players on the bench today were Carroll, Marte and Shoppach. Not a single replacement outfielder in the bunch. I picture Gimenez as a super utility guy. By definition, that guy should start VERY infrequently, and yet Wedge seems inclined to start him whenever and wherever possible. But Marte continues to play dominoes on Wedge’s watch.
-Erik
SSS to be sure, but agreed. Though remember that Gimenez was up for awhile and barely started/played at all. Now he’s starting every day.
With Marte remaking himself at AAA this year, he needs to be in there.
Dude, the SSS argument rings hollow as it applies to the management of Marte’s playing time, he’s been on the roster for substantial amounts of time in prior years and I still feel that he has yet to be given even a shot at success.
I agree, that dude should be playing. And pretty much every day.
-Erik
I guess we have our answer to the mancrush question.
by dgcambridge on Aug 6, 2009 12:02 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Yeah. It’s not about Gimenez for me; if they appreciate his versatility, have reason to believe he could stick, and want to take a good look at him, fine. But I just can’t fathom why Marte is on the bench. They’ve got precious little time to take a sustained look at him — I know they can keep them on the roster next year, but if he can’t get AB’s now, what playing time will be available for him once LaPorta is up in September and next year?
Exactly.
We used the second half of last season to find out that Jamie Carroll can play third base. And now we’re using this season’s second half to find other ways to bury Marte.
the indians have some silly line-ups.
by I'd give my legs for Wegz on Aug 6, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions
Good Gravy…I don’t want Morneau to kill us, but geez Carmona, enough with the walks.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 12:13 PM EDT reply actions
i just remember hammy being really mad about throwing kubel strikes last time fausto faced the twins. I think that was the last start before he got demoted to rookie ball
by I'd give my legs for Wegz on Aug 6, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
he’s apparently 10-20 against carmona in his career I think I just heard. That’s awful.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Fire Wedge.
Fausto makes me sad. I thought I wasn’t going to care when C.C. left, because Fausto was locked up.
by xrickx on Aug 6, 2009 12:16 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
My fingers are crossed that new Carmona is just a slow starter and that if he can get thru the 1st inning, things will be great for the rest of the game.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Three hits to left field for Grady in his last two games, and he took one ball back up the middle yesterday too.
Is this progress?
I’d rather he hit the ball over the right field wall, but it’s progress if you’re in the “[Player X] pulls the ball too much” camp.
Blackburn has allowed 191 baserunners in 139 innings. He has just 58 strikeouts. His BABIP is .311, nothing low as to make you think he’s lucky.
I don’t get how he survives…
sorry, this was a reply to the double-play thing.
ESPN has him as a flyball pitcher. fangraphs as a groundball pitcher. hrm.
Seriously though. I didn’t see Skinner give the sign. Did I just miss it or was that Grady’s decision to go?
that was a promising inning that went south fast. Oh well, back to tax returns.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 12:28 PM EDT reply actions
Quick alltell poll: which relief pitcher has impressed you the most? 1. Jess Todd 2. Chris Perez 3. Justin Masterson.
I just said “damn” looking at how slick that trio could be.
Just go ahead and pull him and send him back to Lake County. He’s still not even close to being right.
-Erik
I did not know about those Bip Roberts stories.
And nobody jinx Fausto, but…
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
I was going to say the same thing, didn’t realize he was so hated. I barely even remember the Bip Roberts era in Cleveland.
*sigh*
game 6 of the ALCS he apparently bruised his hand
and game 7 of the WS had a “5 minute flu”
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
No, on the radio Hammy was going off on Roberts for coming down with phantom injuries in big games in the ’97 playoffs.
*sigh*
Am I lame for asking what exactly is the big deal here? Tony Fernandez (Roberts’ replacement in ALCS Game 6) hit the game-winning HR that put us in the Series in the first place. IIRC, we won that game 1-0 against Mussina (who was absolutely incredible during both games we faced him).
--
Force quit and move to trash.
For what it’s worth, Fausto has already broken 3 bats.
by malexander on Aug 6, 2009 12:40 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Worth about 3 broken bats. Sorry, couldn’t help myself. But being serious, whatever works for him. I just want a decent Carmona on the mound.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
So what % of the trouble he has been in is because of the ump?
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
When asked to explain his team’s inactivity at the trade deadline, Ricciardi bristled, saying, “Look, we are in fourth place in the toughest division in baseball, and the only way to remain competitive is by cutting salary, trading for prospects, and building for 2011.”
“Obviously, if Roy Halladay existed, I would have traded him,” he added. “I’m not an idiot.”
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Fausto would benefit immensely from a cutter to throw at lefties. Anybody know if they’ve ever worked on one with him?
that would require some thinking on the part of the coaching staff.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I dunno, you can’t do everything. Fausto already has a sick arsenal, and step one has to be to focus on getting that straight, which it clearly isn’t. But, at some point it would address his problem with lefties.
Hammy: “If you can’t get along with Chris Giminez, you better look in the mirror”.
Well, that explains it. He’s Wedge’s Tim Tebow.
You are reading my signature.
Well, it ain’t been so pretty, but its worked so far.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 12:52 PM EDT reply actions
CLEVELAND — Cleveland Indians owner Paul Dolan projects the team will lose $16 million this season and says the recent trades of Cy Young winner Cliff Lee and All-Star catcher Victor Martinez were necessary long-term moves.
…
Dolan also said ownership will have input into whether manager Eric Wedge returns next season.
FUCK
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
Lets see….with Wedge on the bench this team has lost $16mil. That’s gotta be an easy decision, doesn’t it?
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the guys on the mound had more to do with it than Wedge.
I really dont see what getting rid of Wedge will do. Its essentially a symbolic move to get rid of Wedge.
As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.
you could argue that it was actually Shapiro that put the guys on the mound. Wedge only had the option to determine when they went in. But I understand what you’re saying.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 1:08 PM EDT up reply actions
And by that I mean that his bullpen management has been subpar, so say the least. More generally, his decisions on who to play and who not to play have been fairly questionable. For instance, the insistence on not making Shoppach the starter, or having Marte sit on the bench when the rest of this season is essentially for scouting, and we need to see whether Marte is a viable major leaguer.
He put a lot of guys on the mound; with little variation in results.
My point isnt that Wedge is infallible and needs to stay around. I just think that axing him would be more of an emotional reaction and really wouldnt make the Indians any better or worse.
I personally think a manager’s influence on a team’s on-field results are minimal. I understand the “buck stops here” mentality though and why he may go. I just dont think it will solve much although I am still perplexed as to why the Indians seems to start so slow each season of late.
As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.
The problem is that your assumption is incorrect. The manager makes the decisions on batting order, who plays where, bullpen usage, bunting, stealing, pinch hitting/running, and numerous other things. Sure, the players have to execute, but the manager is the person who, in many instances, makes the decisions on what to do and always decides who is going to be in a position to do it.
Specifically, in Wedge’s case: many of his defensive schemes have clearly made the Indians less likely to win games. Garko in the outfield, for instance. His overuse of pinch runners late in games (repeatedly taking out guys like Hafner and a catcher that we used to have and seriously hurting our lineup in extra inning games). Chris Gimenez hitting 6th today despite a .637 OPS (and a .463 OPS since the end of June). I’m sure we could come up with more examples, but these are things that I can come up with just off the top of my head.
OK, perhaps his influence being minimal is an exaggeration. I generally think it’s overstated however.
If we had, Torre, LaRussa or Gardenhire (or whatever manager is considered “good”) at the helm; do we think this team would contend? The ERA of 5.15 makes me think not. The team is flawed moreso than mismanaged.
The streak of bad Aprils & Mays under Wedge makes me question his influence over the “intangibles” (is the team motivated and ready to performat the start of the season?), but again, I just dont think he’s the problem (nor do I think another manager is the answer).
As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.
I agree with you that we probably wouldn’t be a great team this year with any manager (although that’s not to say that we wouldn’t be able to contend in this division). However, the job of a manager is to maximize the number of wins he can get given the players he has available. Wedge is clearly not even close to doing that. Sure, he’s not the whole problem, not even close, but I don’t think you can reasonably say that he isn’t part of it. And if changing managers will lead to the team winning more games, it should be done, just as much as upgrading the bullpen should be done.
That said, if we’re completely giving up on contending next year, we might as well keep him, since we have to pay him anyway.
Wedge deserves to go, he’s had his chance and failed. Give a new guy a chance. No, he’s not to blame entirely for the last 2 seasons’ woes, but still…
Yeah, bye bye. There is, however, 100% certainty that fans will complain about the bullpen management of his replacement.
offtopic: if i want to see Nelson Cruz’s numbers since the all-star break, is there a sight that i can sort that? assuming it’s a non pay site of course.
You are reading my signature.
In the first three games of his career, Gimenez had a 1.569 OPS and 2 HR. Maybe that’s what Hammy meant. Probably not.
Through his first 19 games in Cleveland, Francisco put up an impressive .365/.397/.619 line. In the 113 games since he has put up a less than stellar .247/.305/.405.
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
So he’s gold for the next 3 months under the Eric Wedge Instant Evaluation system. Marte doesn’t stand a chance of seeing playing time over the new golden boy.
"It's all part of life's rich pageant, you know?" - Inspector Clouseau
Just like I said a while back.
http://www.letsgotribe.com/2009/7/5/938564/wedge-wont-be-fired-midseason#17879812
-Erik
Carmona is approaching quality start territory, sort of…
by APV on Aug 6, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
The commenters at indians.com have found a replacement for Ryan Garko:
I hope Trevor Crowe sticks around. He’s got great discipline, seems to move and bat a lot like Grady (but with less strikeouts), and he’s got one of them cutie-faces that will bring the girls to the ballpark if he keeps up the good work. Plus his name is just awesome, definitely a solid baseball name.
i dont know about all of you, but i’m really starting to warm up to Trevor Crowe. he is a very good player, & i think he has what it takes to be a good & positive person for the tribe.
Crowe is fun to watch when he flies. Trevor you are one of the only potential bright spots on this team of stiffs.
it’s hard to argue…watching people fly is certainly a great deal of fun
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 6, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions
PUMA MAN CAN TEAR THROUGH PURE CONTACT PAPER
by FredOx on Aug 6, 2009 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He has a bat like Grady’s? I haven’t seen this bat. Do they mean they use the same kind?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 7, 2009 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kept us in the game, that’s all you can ask. Its up to the offense to do a little more than 1 run.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
he did manage the 12-4 groundout, flyout thing well
by APV on Aug 6, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I was just min the midst of posting “Six pretty strong ones for Fausto. It hasn’t been easy, but he struggled less with control after the first, and got a lot of ground balls. He didn’t ok to me”
CHOOOOOOOO. How many other 3 hitters in the league can bunt for a basehit!?
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 1:54 PM EDT reply actions
I would have thought Masterson would pitch today…. They wanted him to go at least 3 innings, so wouldn’t that mean he should come in in the 7th?
I think they are lining him up with Sowers purposefully. At least, I thought i read that somewhere. But with Huff struggling lately, and Sowers looking a little better, that doesn’t make much sense.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Masterson seems lined up to take Pavano’s next start (the one after this Saturday)
by APV on Aug 6, 2009 2:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I know they’ve been getting him bullpen sessions here and there after games.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
especially since he obviously can’t bunt.
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Gimenez’s grinding quotient is 4 times higher than Marte’s, so clearly that would be a terrible decision.
I would definitely not call two foul bunt attempts followed by a swinging third strike grinding. More like sucking.
-Erik
But if Marte were up he might be selfish and try to hit the ball hard. Gimenez is a guy you can put out there to sacrifice himself for the team and advance the runners.
Or in this case, just sacrifice himself to no effect.
if he can’t grow a beard, at least gimlet will rub dirt on his face. has marte done that?
by DontCallMeJoey on Aug 6, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
He can make those points up by growing a beard though.
by malexander on Aug 6, 2009 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the only thing worse than a bunt is a botched bunt
by cleveland teamer on Aug 6, 2009 2:10 PM EDT reply actions
They’re not going to carry five outfielders, not going to carry a fourth outfielder that can’t play CF, and not going to have less than three catchers. For good or bad, that’s the logic.
Didn’t we start the season with fewer than 3 catchers? I mean, assuming Garko doesn’t count?
"It's all part of life's rich pageant, you know?" - Inspector Clouseau
Top of the F’ing order coming up and he hits a fly ball to fairly shallow center and you send the runner from third?!
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 2:16 PM EDT reply actions
that’s even worse! (i’m only able to listen on the radio)
by MooneysRebellion on Aug 6, 2009 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions
besides the EPS part, I have no idea what you’re talking about today.
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
er… a quote from the actual movie worth quoting. i hit post instead of cancel there. Typing is hard ok.
Each man is a God. Each man is free.
Man is free. Man is master of himself.
But if they come, man is no longer free.
Actually, I just realized, horrified, that the “little puma men” quote is also directly from the movie. DDDD:
No Marte, hmm?
I have a new retort to the people who think the Indians will want to “pay two managers” by firing Wedge this off-season. They won’t be paying two managers. If they fire Wedge, they’ll be paying out Wedge’s contact, and then paying somebody who will do his fucking job.
by fleerdon on Aug 6, 2009 2:42 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Help me not hate Giminez, Erik. It’s not his fault.
by fleerdon on Aug 6, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right Tyler, it’s not his fault. It’s an unreasonable expectation for us to think that Giminez would say “Hey Skip, shouldn’t you play Marte instead of me?” Ultimately he wants to play. No fault in that. We should expect our manager to make the right decision though. Hate Wedge. That’s the appropriate conduit.
-Erik
And 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007. They always play better in the 2nd half under Wedge, it boggles the mind.
another year, another demonstration of how crappy NL lineups are
by APV on Aug 6, 2009 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions
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