Why Wedge Must Go
by stuart dean on Aug 7, 2009 12:00 PM EDT
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PrintI have been a defender and am not one to hasten to blame the manager but believe that it is now time to turn the page. Playing Garko in the outfield during Huff’s starts started the final souring process for me and the love affair with Giminez referenced here at the expense of finding out if Andy Marte is Agent M or well, Marte finished it. Beyond logic and reason, I will admit that I’m kind of tired of his whole act and also believe that the team needs to do something from a PR standpoint to register at least some organizational displeasure. The purpose of this post is to centrally compile the arguments for his departure. I will start it off and look forward to the comments…
- We need to hire Pythagoras of Samos. Wedge has consistently underperformed his Pythagorean win expectancy. While some of this can be explained by lousy bullpens, this dog has to have some hunt.
- Brandon Phillips. While Shapiro pulled the trigger, we all know that it was Wedges’s gun and bullets. This was a classic ego-clash and even if Phillips hadn’t turned in to a star it still would have infuriated me.
- His love for, and overexposure of, under-performing role players. This has been beat to death elsewhere…
- Garko in the outfield. “Hey let’s bring up a rookie pitcher with fly-ball tendencies and give him the best possible platform to succeed”. In David Huff’s first twelve starts, Garko logged significant time in the outfield in seven of them. In addition, DeRosa was in right for three of them and Francisco in center for six… This positional absurdity continued with Giminez at first for Laffey’s last outing.
- He is not a motivator of players who actually need motivation. It has been said that his teams don’t quit on him. As I believe Jay mentioned, the players who don’t quit on him are the ones who wouldn’t dare quit on themselves…
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It sure seems to me that Victor quit this season (his July avg was in the tank, but he has picked it up with Boston). And if Victor quits, that is pretty damning.
I don’t blame Victor. Heck, I quit too.
but he has picked it up with Boston
Let’s not get stupid here. Vic’s been with Boston for about a week…I won’t be surprised if he does turn it around, but I think even if he does that can only be used as tangential evidence against Wedge.
by APV on Aug 7, 2009 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Eric Wedge:
- double dips chips at dinner parties
- borrows DVDs and “forgets” to return them
- updates his Facebook status too often and clogs up your news feed
- doesn’t cover his mouth when he sneezes
- manages baseball teams that consistently underperform expectations
- uses the urinal right next to you when there is clearly space available to alternate spots
by cleveland teamer on Aug 7, 2009 1:15 PM EDT reply actions 9 recs
The most frustrating thing for me about this season is I still think Wedge should have been fired in May. Now that we know that the front office basically viewed this season as a make or break year and that this season would directly impact the feasibility of contending next season, the team should have acted boldly and early. I’m sure Shapiro and staff have gathered data showing how teams that switch managers tend to do poorly. But I’d also wager a guess that there is a fair amount of variance around that and that the specific circumstances the Tribe faced this season should have trumped those concerns. It is nice to have a strong organizational philosophy, but that philosophy has to have at its center the desire to win. Wedge should have been fired in May in the hopes it could have turned around some of the horrendous performances we were getting out of our players on the field.
by APV on Aug 7, 2009 1:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Farrell/Lovullo
Agreed! That want a company man who knows the organization and can speak Shapiro Speak.
I wouldn’t mind seeing Travis Fryman join the big league staff in some capacity. 3rd base coach would seem a natural fit for him.
by APV on Aug 7, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I rarely hear Joel Skinner mentioned. Is there some reason why he shouldn’t be considered?
I know some are down on his 3B coaching skills (though i haven’t heard many complaints this year), but he knows the players, the organization, and seems more laid back than Wedge. Maybe he isn’t interested in managing again?
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
Tough to complain about your 3B coach when you’re playing 400 ball. Though I have no doubt that DiamondView could beepobopo you up a RC for him.
by fleerdon on Aug 7, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
If you were wondering, I’ve always envisioned DiamondView using the interface of the computer system from Jurassic Park.
by fleerdon on Aug 7, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Mr. Dolan, the relievers are working.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Aug 8, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Now that we know that the front office basically viewed this season as a make or break year and that this season would directly impact the feasibility of contending next season, the team should have acted boldly and early.
Interesting way to look at it. And it wasn’t just the front office but also the back office — they evidently budgeted for 2007-level attendance, despite a severe economic downturn. I don’t think we realized just how all-in the Indians were this season. Shapiro’s comments about the Lee and Martinez deals imply a sort of stepping back from the precipice — that had we continued to move forward in the same direction, we were going to fall down and not get up again for a long time. It’s troubling that we were even that close to the precipice — and still, nobody is fired.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
It’s troubling that we were even that close to the precipice — and still, nobody is fired.
Accountability doesn’t seem to be our strong point
by APV on Aug 7, 2009 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Our best players wear teflon suits.
by Toxicadam on Aug 10, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That’s more becoming that pink sequined dresses
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Aug 10, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I heard Wedge talks with his mouth full. Like all the time.
by Chemo on Aug 7, 2009 1:52 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
When Eric was hired he was the youngest manager in the majors. Young players and young managers should get better as they get more experience. I haven’t seen much growth or improvement in Wedge since he took over.
Over the past two years I’ve come to suspect that Wedge is more of a “my way or the highway” type of manager with little flexibility when it comes to dealing with people who aren’t his personality type.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on Aug 7, 2009 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I haven’t seen much growth or improvement in Wedge since he took over.
Come on, man.
He had a rough first part of this year, but he is much better at many facets of managing a game since he first started.
Firing Louis Issac is another example of his intolerance for people that don’t fit his profile. I’ve got to think it was Wedge’s decision. It’s hard to claim that Louis would have been able to fix the bullpen before the season was gone, but it seems fair to say that decision didn’t work out so well and it seemed a poor way to treat someone as well respected as Issac.
As well-respected as Isaac? I’ve heard this before, but no one can tell me who respects him so much? The hoi polloi seems to assign superhuman powers to him. Perhaps his abilities were far greater than most of us recognized. But what is with this love of Luis Isaac?
I’m new around here and it’s taken me a while to get back to this. Let me clarify that I didn’t mean to imply that simply firing Luis Issac makes the top 150 reasons why a reasonable person might conclude that Wedge should go. I had read (probably a Pluto article from several years ago when the bullpen was good) that Issac had a knack for identifying little flaws in a pitcher’s mechanics and helping him get back to what had been working. Sort of like a golfer’s swing coach. That sounds a lot like the pitching coach’s job too, but presumably they work together. Apparently Wedge didn’t think he was all that good at it.
Baseball players have about the most objective job performance evaluation of any profession. With coaches and managers I think there is a little more room for subjectivity, but over a sufficiently long period of time results are what’s important. My original point was that Wedge has a history of playing favorites with people that fit his personality type. Whether Issac had lost it or just didn’t fit Eric’s profile, I agree that he has the right to choose his coaching staff. If the reason is the latter, then I think it’s a shame that a 40+ year career ends that way, even in baseball where nobody has much job security.
While we’re on the subject of long tenured coaches/managers, how do you rate Jim Leyland. He’s certainly had success in the past, but last year the Tigers were awful with a big payroll and just gave up for the last part of the season. Even this year I’m not sure he’s gotten the best from his players. Is the Central a weak division because every team has a lousy manager? (I won’t even start on Ozzie.) How much should a GM weigh past performance vs. what a manager’s done lately. Shapiro talks about evaluating Wedge based on the entire body of his work. I can’t disagree anymore with the consensus that the Indians have underperformed under Eric Wedge and that he’s been around long enough to be held accountable.
by Pa tribefan on Aug 17, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
(1) If Pluto’s article was correct, what happened to Luis in 2008?
(2) Don’t be so sure it was Wedge who fired Isaac. I agree that Wedge plays favorites with people who fit his personality type (or appears to do so), but that wasn’t why Isaac was canned. I suspect something more was going on.
(3) Isaac didn’t “lose it.” He isn’t a wizard. He’s not the reason the pen is good or bad. If a bullpen coach were responsible for a pen’s success, they’d make a lot more than $200,000, and we’d know the names of all of them. Do you know who Rick Stelmaszek is? I didn’t. He’s bullpen coach for the Twins.
(4) Regarding the abrupt end of Isaac’s illustrious 40-year career: Do we know the details of his dismissal?
Subjectively, I’d rank the AL Central managers: Gardenhire, Guillen, Leyland, Hillman, Wedge.
Firing someone from a major league coaching job isn’t treating him poorly.
Nobody is entitled to hang around in these jobs forever. Should Shapiro apply that standard to Wedge?
It actually is surprising that Isaac lasted as long as he did.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
My biggest gripe with Wedge is his mismanagement of the bullpen. I can forgive him any other transgressions.
featuring the curses of Bobby Bragan and Rocky Colavito
How many guys out there are known to handle bullpens correctly? Bullpens in general are so volatile that it’s really difficult to determine how much blame falls on the managing of it and how much of it is just the pitcher not performing.
Many managers have a better feel for their bullpens. Gardenhire, even Guillen come to mind. LaRussa even, if you forgive his endless L-R-L fiddling.
You think that, but I’ve known many Twins and Cardinals fans in my life, and they complained about bullpen management just as much as we do. I can’t remember the last Indians manager against whom that complaint was not lodged. Certainly people thought Hargrove was bad at it. Hire John Farrell, and the first time Rondon gives up a lead in the eighth inning, the fans will be howling.
Yes, that’s certainly true. That’s the first thing the casual fan complains about. Sparky Anderson, a.k.a. Captain Hook, was another one. And he tried to beat the fans to the punch by yanking a pitcher at the first sign of trouble.
Actually, Wedge’s determination to wrest as many innings as possible from any pitcher seems noble. It’s good to get as much as you can from a pitcher after he’s warmed up and in the game (same goes for starting pitching), but has he ever had a quick hook? I’ll have to look it up. Wedge’s default is to let the pitcher stay in one or even two or three batters too long, and take him out only when there’s a real mess. Maybe you take a pitcher out quickly if he shows no sign of sharpness, and then you can try him again the next day (not burning him out with 29 pitches while he decisively establishes that today is not his day). Maybe a quick hook helps you get more innings over the course of a year.
Given the quality of the bullpens relative to the starting pitching that Wedge has had over the years, is it any wonder that he has generally erred in favor of leaving the starting pitcher in too long?
"It's all part of life's rich pageant, you know?" - Inspector Clouseau
by woodsmeister on Aug 11, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
He is wasting a valuable managerial spot. If there are any questions at all about players not playing up to potential under this manager (Marte, Peralta, etc), why not get rid of him, get a new voice in there and see if these players really were just unmotivated by Wedge?
Tangent – Smoltz just got DFA’d by the Red Sox. That got me thinking about the veteran pitchers on this team. These are the most tenured pitchers we have: Westbrook, Wood, Ohka, Carmona. One of the reasons the Tribe did well in the 90’s (besides one of the largest payrolls in baseball) was they had veterans showing the young guys how to go about their business. We need that here. Not advocating we sign Smoltz right now, but any veteran leadership is better than what we have now.
“Veteran Leadership” is kind of a non starter for me unless it is accompanied with the ability to like, pitch?
Stuart Dean
Smoltz might make a hellava pitching coach. How come we aren’t talking about Willis too?
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Something about the two straight Cy Youngs and a fairly sterling track record prior to that.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 8, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you think that’s on Willis, then you basically have to fire him.
Not sure what I think.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Plenty of blame to go around here. Shapiro number one, but then I’m assuming Willis had some input into the evaluation. Plus, he couldda told Shap, “these guys ain’t got it, we need help” in the Spring. I’m kinda wityou on this. But man, what a monumental screw up.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I’m hesitant to completely blame Shapiro. He had no way of knowing that Perez would implode, Betancourt would struggle out of the gate, Wood would be terrible until it no longer mattered, Lewis would regain absolutely nothing, and Smith would struggle then get hurt. I’ll grant that he could have had more depth on hand but quite a bit had to go bad before we needed Matt Herges.
So what is the problem? bad luck? two years in a row? At some point ya gotta fire somebody, just so they know you’ll do it.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Aug 9, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not that I am in any way requesting this, but every time I click on the title of this post, I suspect I’m going to a page showing a picture of an unflushed toilet.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
by Jay on Aug 8, 2009 12:46 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
DiaTribe nails it:
the Indians (surprise) making that 2nd half run that I dreaded, if only because it loosened the noose around The Atomic Wedgie’s neck
and in the same vein:
it does feel odd watching the team night after night wanting the Indians to win, but not too frequently so it doesn’t save Wedge’s job
Stuart Dean
Wedge ranks 3rd in the AL in tenure in his current position, so management philosophy and his 2005 and 2007 seasons have resulted in a fairly long run.
Only Boudreau, Hargrove and Speaker have managed more games for the Indians.
Ya know what V? Al Lopezwas a better manager than any of them.never won the World Series either.
Al Lopez managed a team with four Hall of Famers on it, three of whom were starting pitchers. In fairness, they may have all garnered their greatness from having played under him, but I can’t help but think that having that kind of talent at the top of the rotation may have gone a long way towards cementing Al’s legacy in the court of public opinion in Cleveland.
The four HoFers – well yeah. Lemon, Wynn were for sure at the top of their game, Feller not so much. And Doby, his game was strong under Lopez. Not electing Rosen is one of the great HoF miscarriages – much greater than leaving out Blyleven. So, yeah Al had some – no check that – a lot of talent. But his line-up is no better than the teams Hargrove led.
Looking at from this point of view, I guess Boudreau did more with less than the other three. But, but, Al didn’t do too bad in Chicago either.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
All time winnig percentages:
Boudreau: .467
Hargrove: .503
Speaker: .547
Wedge: .502
So Wedge is right in the middle here. But the one thing they all – save Wedge – have in common: they all got replaced.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
So player-managers have better chances at winning WS for Cleveland than just regular managers. Make Jhonny Peralta player manager.
It’s the other way around. Put Eric Wedge in the game. Make him choose: Who blocks Marte tonight, Gimenez… or me?
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Aug 10, 2009 12:19 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
By the way, Boudreau plays SS and manages on my all-time, all-Jewish baseball team.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I don’t know about the managers list, but I don’t think he has much of any competition among Jewish shortstops.
Steel Nick
Charles “Buddy” Meyer, finish fourth in the MVP voting in ‘35. The boy could play. BTW, Joe Gordon’s the starting second baseman for that team.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Joe Gordon was not Jewish. Buddy Meyer needs to play 2B. Al Rosen’s at 3B. Greenberg is obviously at first. Catcher is probably Harry Danning, although one could probably make a credible argument for Brad Ausmus or Mike Lieberthal. Put Elliott Maddox in CF, mostly by default. Pick two of Ryan Braun, Shawn Green and Sid Gordon for the corners. Koufax pitches. Scott Radinsky is the pitching coach. Find room for Craig Breslow somewhere, just because.
Doesn’t this prove that Major League Baseball’s Jewish outreach programs have been some sort of a failure?
Usually, an incredible waste of pixels.
by emd2k3 on Aug 10, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You gonna start either of those guys over Koufax? We can fill out the rotation later. I’ve heard the rumors about Joe Gordon, but I’m relying on this guy. Let’s move on to the all-Indonesian baseball team.
My favorite is the All Italian baseball team. You should hear the boyz on Murray Hill howl when I suggest that Roy Campenella should catch ahead of Berra.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
From the book Fantasyland:
As New York governor Mario Cuomo’s Rotisserie partner, Marty Steadman knew the golden rule: There must be one Italian American on every team. After years of losing his shirt on Righettis, Francos, and Colangelos, Steadman picked up a Latin player with a passably Italian surname, hoping the governor would be fooled. He was not. "He made me trade," Steadman says, "for an Italian."
Steel Nick
What you don’t like Richie Schienblum in center? Gotta recognize our former Tribesmen – pun intended.
And it looks like you’re right about Joe Gordon, looks like my reference got him confused with Sid Gordon, a pretty decent OF/3rd baseman. I stand corrected.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Not really corrected, in that there has been a persistent rumor that Joe was in fact Jewish, but afraid to admit it due to prejudice at the time. It looks like there is no truth to that rumor, however. Scheinblum only played one season as a regular, and that was for the Royals. But sure, let’s throw him out there – CF is not exactly a position of strength.
so did speaker
Thank you Mesa for blowing the one chance Cleveland had of being happy during the 90's.
Here’s a little trick for everyone … if you’re linking to a comment in the current thread, you can delete everything before the # character — leaving only “#19463457” in this example — for the link URL.
Like this. See how nice that works?
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Lou Boudreau’s mother was jewish.
Al Shacht =>
There is talk that I am Jewish – just because my father was Jewish, my mother is Jewish, I speak Yiddish and once studied to be a rabbi and a cantor. Well, that’s how rumors get started.
MLBJR did nothing wrong!
Stuart Dean
by stuart dean on Aug 10, 2009 12:00 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Carroll in RF, batting 2nd.
Toregas at C, batting 8th.
Gimenez at 1B, batting 9th.
That’s why.
by Brad D on Aug 15, 2009 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
I realized that after browsing around some more. Adam gets half of my rec.
by NickFantana on Aug 15, 2009 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
who else can we put in the outfield without bringing up LaPorta or somebody
I'm an idiot with a stupid signature.
who the hell changed that?
Thank you Jose Mesa for blowing Cleveland's one chance at happiness during the 90's.
oh well i really don’t care i just didn’t like the sig
Thank you Jose Mesa for blowing Cleveland's one chance at happiness during the 90's.
I had a lot of respect for you for not changing it back. Now that you noticed and did, that respect died.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 16, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Not as happy as if you had kept it or changed it to something amusing. Look I’m a 20 year old who is called a 58 year old man all the time on here. You just gotta roll with the ounches.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 17, 2009 12:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Either way i just put the first thing that popped into my head as my sig. You may have noticed creativity isn’t my strong point.
Mine’s a quote froma movie. I didn’t even come up with it myself. Can’t fault you for not being creative. But no hard feelings okay?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 17, 2009 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Gosh I can’t type.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 17, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
So I’m not alone is what you’re telling me?
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 17, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Ounch is a magical land with unicorn killing wizards and elves who like to eat our faces.
Stuart Dean
by stuart dean on Aug 17, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
That sounds like an awful place.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 17, 2009 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
I did. I told you twice to change it yourself, but you didn’t pay attention.
That sig is annoying to pretty much everyone, I think, and what I think counts in this case. We’re going to consider it trolling every time you post with that sig from now on, so after another two or three posts, you’ll be banned.
Or, you could just change it to something less anti-social. Your choice.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
Either way, whether you did or not because i don’t remember it, just ask me to change it next time this happens.
Yeah, well, that’s part of the problem. This isn’t a rant-and-rave-at-other-people site. It’s a forum, a community. If you’re only here to talk AT people, rather than engaging in a dialogue, then you won’t be around long.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I made a picture if Mr. 95 keeps this up:
by FredOx on Aug 17, 2009 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
Brilliant.
"It's all part of life's rich pageant, you know?" - Inspector Clouseau
by woodsmeister on Aug 17, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
If u think I don’t care about anything Cleveland then fine I’m done, you’re wrong. Just leave me alone and I won’t come back so u won’t have to suffer any longer.
Leave you alone?
You are coming here, buddy. I’m not coming over to your house with a laptop, begging you to post.
And you are completely welcome here — completely welcome. But again, you have to recognize that it isn’t a place just to spew and rant at other people. Engage, discuss — see how others respond. You are already starting to do this, and it’s all well and good.
Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
I don’t know which post to rec because I am laughing so hard, so I will rec yours for pointing it out
I noticed a long time ago but I didn’t want to say anything and hurt his feelings.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Aug 16, 2009 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions
“The more at-bats we could give him down there, the more games he could get under his belt without the pressure of the big leagues, is something he needed,” said Wedge. “He may need it again, I don’t know.” LaPorta would seem to be an ideal fit for first base in 2010 with Victor Martinez and Ryan Garko traded. “Not necessarily,” said Wedge. “It depends what we see toward the end of this season and what we do this winter. There’s always a chance we could go out and get somebody. We just have to work off Matt.”
From here. Just in case anyone needs anymore quotes from Wedge to think about. Just what you want to have the manager to say at the beginning of your opportunity to prove yourself.
Put yourself in LaPorta’s shoes. You haven’t even reached the field and Wedge is talking about how you may not be good enough. Not after 200 ABs, Not after 100 ABs, but before you have reached the team after getting the call. He’s even talking about having to spend money on a replacement, on a team that is loosing money, because you might not fit the bill.
Now go out there and get ’em … every third day…
The fact that he is even discussing offseason moves (something he has no part in) to potentially get someone to play in front of LaPorta strikes me as really dumb on his part. Has he made such comments for someone like Valbuena ever? What about Choo when he first started playing regularly? This goes back to my belief that Wedge can be irrational for certain players when it comes to playing time for reasons I can’t distinguish.
Will you change your tune if LaPorta is sitting every third game for Gimenez?
I just hate the fact that Wedge is talking about 2010.
"You just gotta roll with the ounches." - Clemson58YearOldMan
Also! The Pressure of the Big Leagues. Wedge knows all about this, right?
"You just gotta roll with the ounches." - Clemson58YearOldMan
Wedge is attempting to motivate LaPorta. Obviously LaPorta looks around and sees he pretty much has a job locked up. So Wedge is concerned he will become complacent or lazy or fall into bad work habits or get fat or something. This looks like a lame effort to inspire, to give LaPorta a kick in the pants. Rookies have to earn playing time, remember. Classic Wedge mush.
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