"How often do you see a guy sacrifice himself to save a run?"
"How many people do you meet that are like Victor Martinez?"
"When they needed someone to catch Tim Wakefield, Martinez gladly volunteered. "
"Eddie was my hitting coach when I came up with the Indians," says Martinez. "He taught me so much about what pitchers might try to do, what to look for, how to prepare. He told me to take BP at 70 percent. Don't try to hit everything hard. He taught me that when there are runners on base, take what the pitcher gives you and get the runners in. It doesn't matter what it looks like, what's important is knocking in your teammates and winning."
Don't click the link if you don't want to be saddened.
over 2 years ago
westbrook
100 comments
0 recs |
Email
PrintComments
Unfortunately, it took Victor playing for the Sawx for people like Gammons to realize how special Victor is. We’ve known it all along.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
If you’ve listened to Gammons throughout the years, he knew. His new Sox teammates didn’t know, though.
Yeah, Gammons was always high on Victor. But now Victor’s playing for his boys.
The worst part was Victor giving props to Varitek. Does he have to be so classy?!
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Sep 20, 2009 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Why do you guys torture yourself like this? Victor’s, and CC, and Lee are all gone and they ain’t coming back – EVER! Get used to this. Shapiro’s gonna hafta trade Sizemore too, to finish the job he started.
This is like surgery. It’s gonna hurt – a lot. But in the end we’ll all be better off.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Shapiro’s gonna hafta trade Sizemore too, to finish the job he started.
I’m beginning to really dislike your posts.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
There is a huge difference between truth and opinion based on negative outlook. Trading Grady being a necessity is not truth. It’s not even close.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
Look, we do this dance before the trade of most of our vets. Before CC was traded there was a lot of speculation on how we could keep him. That never was realistic. Before we traded Martinez – and to a lesser extent Lee – there was more speculation. That was never realistic either. There is little, if any, difference with Sizemore.
My most probable scenario is Sizemore comes back next year and puts up an OPS of .900+ Damon chokes – the Yankees wanna replace him – we deal Sizemore to the Yankees for 3 good prospects. That’s my opinion. Sizemore getting traded is, like Shapiro himself, smart and realistic and therefore inevitable. It’s neither negative nor positive. Just inevitable.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
You’re forgetting for the part where you failed to originally give any solid basis for why Sizemore would/should be traded, you simply said that we should get ready for it because it is simply impossible for to never not do such a thing. That he should be traded just because CC, Lee and Martinez were isn’t much of a reason.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
Here’s why. We could turn one good to great player into 3 solid prospects which could lead to having 1 or 2 very good players. We need numbers right now, not expiring contracts. And Grady’s contract comes up in 2012 I believe. We’ll never get more for him than we will in the next 9 to 12 months. We’re going nowhere with him for the next two or three years, why not use his value to prepare for 2011/2013?
I can’t imagine Dolan giving Shapiro the green light to sign Grady for the kinda money his agent will demand. So why would you want to keep him when the (cheap) players you can get for him could help you win the whole deal in 2013?
Any way, we’ll talk about this again in a year or so.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I’m actually on board with this, sort of, but I also agree with FredOx that the value-in-return vs. production math could be a lot closer than with the other vets-for-prospects trades we’ve seen lately. I also wonder, at least a little, about Grady putting butts in the bleachers, and what that’ll be worth in a year or two.
by fleerdon on Sep 21, 2009 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
We need numbers right now, not expiring contracts. And Grady’s contract comes up in 2012 I believe.
We’re going nowhere with him for the next two or three years
We need numbers right now.. but we’re going nowhere? Grady’s contract has a pricey but not unreasonable club option in 2012. I wouldn’t call that an expriring contract. A lot of FAs are only signed to 3 year deals. Now you’re just grasping at straws to back up an argument that isn’t very valid at this stage to begin with. You’re assuming we won’t compete for in 2010, 2011 and maybe not even 2012; I don’t think many people here believe it will actually take that long.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
You’re assuming we won’t compete for in 2010, 2011 and maybe not even 2012; I don’t think many people here believe it will actually take that long.
Not many people here want to believe it, but it’s a possibility. Probably more of a possibility than the team winning the World Series in 2012.
No one said winning the WS, I said competing. Anything is a possibility. If you listen to some people, the end of the world is a possibility in 2012.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
Good point. I’d say it’s more likely the Indians don’t compete in 2012 than they do. That’s three seasons out. Who could project that? It’s more likely the team will not compete.
Will the Indians compete in 2050? Probably not.
Exactly. If you can’t predict that we will compete in 2012 you can’t predict that we won’t.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
Teams are more likely not to compete than they are to compete (especially teams not based in New York, Boston or Los Angeles).
Before we traded Martinez – and to a lesser extent Lee – there was more speculation. That was never realistic either. There is little, if any, difference with Sizemore.
There are actually was little serious speculation (at least around here) that we would keep either Martinez or Lee beyond their current contracts. Wishes and prayers, but not meaningful speculation.
There are very substantial differences separating Sizemore from all the others. Sizemore is not a pitcher. He does not play an exceptionally demanding position which breaks players down substantially in their early 30s. He is not a mediocre defender who is already at or will soon have to move to a position of lesser value. He will still be very much in his prime as he reaches his walk year, and his exceptional all-around athleticism lends itself to a long peak and slow decline.
Hardly any of those attributes can be ascribed to C.C., Cliff or Victor, and that is what makes Sizemore different from the rest.
The other thing, of course, is that Shapiro has never traded a top player who is under contract for next year, while expecting to contend in that next year. The gameplan may change, but Shapiro’s playback thus far says that if the Indians are going to be competitive in 2012, we’re keeping Sizemore at least that long.
Grady will be 30 in 2012, and a lot can happen in three seasons. If he has a solid bounce-back year in 2010 it would be prudent to entertain offers. Billy Beane would, I think. It is possible that some of Grady’s trends are not heading in the right direction.
I hate to say this, but once the league caught on to OBP, Beane hasn’t exactly been the model GM.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 21, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
But the A’s have been pretty consistently terrible since their heyday when they were the only team using advanced metrics, and only a few teams fully understood the value of on-base percentage. This includes two failed rebuilds: the Crosby/Harden model and this year’s Holliday/Cabrera edition.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 21, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, wait, I think you’re agreeing with me.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 21, 2009 1:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I remembered ‘06, but I didn’t realize that in ‘04-’05, the years in between that they missed the playoffs, they had won 179 games.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 21, 2009 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re working on the assumption that Beane has been trying to make a winner. I think he’s been trying to have a contending squad ready for the move to Fremont.
by fleerdon on Sep 21, 2009 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, this seems right. He has a pretty solid starter kit for a pitching rotation. Better than the Indians, that’s for sure.
I’m saying a trade for Grady should be considered. Beane is not afraid to take chances, which is something we’ve been heralding here in the Fire Everybody series.
But is trading Grady “taking a chance”? I think that would fall in line with more of the same, if anything.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
It’s “taking a chance” in the sense that it’s unexpected. But some things are unexpected simply because they would be stupid.
by Jay on Sep 21, 2009 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are so many differences it’s ridiculous to make the comparison, and essentially futile for the voices of reason to try to contradict it. CC was never coming back, and we all knew it. The Yankees were going to open the vault for him, and no one, not even the other clubs in the Insane Big-Spending Elks Lodge were going to compete. Grady is nothing like that. He’s a good center fielder, with some power from a position not traditionally known for it, but he’s hardly irreplaceable. The Yankees or Red Sox or whatever can get similar value elsewhere, in a younger model, even if the replacement doesn’t bring to the table exactly what Grady does.
Lee and Martinez were approaching their walk years in a system that badly needed to be stocked with young arms, in an economy that was/is in the crapper, playing for a team that was bleeding money and which is on the cusp of wholesale coaching changes. The golden era that looked so promising two years ago turned out to be little more than a nice application of Pantone 871-C. The easiest way to restock and retool was dealing those guys.
Grady will be here through 2012, when conditions should be different, and he’ll be a guy who won’t fetch the returns of Exhibits A-C in the Shapiro Trades Everybody file. If they’re not different, if all those young arms turn out to be useless, if Brantley, LaPorta, Weglarz, Chisenhall are bad/ruined/misused, then we’ll talk.
by FredOx on Sep 21, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Of course the circumstances were different. In ‘08 following a terrific season we had hope of competing. When that proved to be a false hope, CC was expendible. Same with ’09 – cept of course there was even less hope of competing by May, and none by July. Now’s our winter of discontent, when there is no hope of competing in ‘10 at all and just a tad more for ’11. Kinda mirror images, but still, to the realists amongst us, similar in that there’s little hope for a pennant for the near future.
Let’s stipulate this: Grady should bring at least two and maybe three prospects. If you accept this, then tell me why you would keep him when we probably won’t be ready to contend for at least 2 -3 years?
Let’s also stipulate that the longer you keep him – and get closer to his walk year – the less he’s worth. The smart move – both baseball and financial – is to trade him for prospects now.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Unlike Cliff and Victor, Grady is not a bad risk to decline substantially in value, especially coming at the end of a down year by his standards. Part of what motivated those two trades was the risk of not trading those players.
One thing we’ve seen is that a player isn’t that much more valuable with 1.5 years left than with one year left. The C.C. yield was better than the Cliff yield, and the difference can’t be accounted for based on C.C.‘s longer track redcord alone, considering that it was Cliff @ 1.5 years versus C.C. @ three months. So that final stipulation seems like it should be true, but it doesn’t seem to be true when it comes time to really make the deal.
I’ve got concerns about Sizemore. The elbow surgery is a concern but the abdomen surgery, much more troubling .
I don’t know enough about Sizemore’s condition, but like I’ve said before, surgery is usually a last resort. If they felt that rest and PT wouldn’t get it done, it has to be more ominous Nothing dire here, just a little concern.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
If the surgeries are a big issue (which I in no way endorse that they are), then it wouldn’t just be you thinking they are, it would also be every big league club that he could be traded to thinking they are an issue as well. Thereby decreasing his value. So some of the very factors you list for trading him would actually decrease his trade value. That just makes the whole idea seem ill-advised.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
You’re right there USS, it’s not wise to trade for a player who’s had joint surgery – with a serious discount for TJ – but there’s lot’s of less than sharp GMs out there. We only hafta find one.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Now you’re looking to find a “sucker” to trade an All-Star, Gold Glove winning Silver Slugger with a 30/30 season for 3 prospects that may or may not pan out, even though said player probably has more seasons like that left in him. I’m just baffled now.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
Then you need to take a closer look at our club’s bottom line.
We won’t have him after 2012 cuz we can’t pay him. We’re not likely to compete until after 2011. What we need is some 2 hopefully 3 talented young studs who we can pimp for 5-6 years at ML minimum.
Memories of Grady’s 30/30, Silver Slugger, Gold Glove years in 2010 and 2011 won’t win us a WS. The other kids might.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I’m done on this one, it’s clear we just don’t see eye to eye here.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
I was done when this conversation started.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Sep 22, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
If you’re trying to make me feel bad about throwing out his awards as value you should know I’m not placing his true value on those awards. Just adding fuel to the fire.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
If you think that all I see when I value Grady are some Gold Gloves and a Silver Slugger, I don’t know what to tell you.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
Nowhere have I questioned what you see when you value Sizemore. I questioned the value of your citation of Silver Slugger awards.
Present-tense? Of course not. And Grady likely will also not be good, 16 years after his last Silver Slugger.
I swear, half of your posts, I have no clue why you would bother making them. The other half are really good.
Maybe you just haven’t figured out the other half. If you’re going to talk of idiot stats, Gold Gloves and Silver Sluggers should not be overlooked.
Dave Winfield won a Silver Slugger award in 1985 with a .799 OPS.
Dave Winfield won a Silver Slugger award in 1985 with a .799 OPS.
Says the guy who thinks Chris Chambliss was good. Bit of a double standard here, no?
Hm, yes, at least one of us needs to work on that other half; that is clear.
I have not really studied Silver Slugger winners. My informal observation has been that they tend to be legit. The fact that you had to go back 24 years to dig up one this bad supports this; Winfield had a 118 OPS+ and was winning his fifth straight. So a clear-cut HOFer got a mulligan on the award one time, is that your best argument?
In any event, like many of your digressions, this is just a sideshow in an argument you otherwise have already lost. The Silver Slugger is not being raised here as substantive evidence, but rather as shorthand for “we all know this guy is one of the very best hitters at his position.” There may be exceptions to the rule that says the former equates to the latter, but Sizemore clearly is not one of them.
Again, why even bother complaining about this? It’s like you’re leading a debate class for retards.
I have no interest in fighting over Silver Slugger awards. I point out that if a person cites batting average or pitchers’ wins, he or she is rightfully reprimanded for referring to a stat that is so unreliable and noisy. Gold Gloves and SSs are also unreliable and noisy, They’re susceptible to a variety of factors. If one were to use BA as shorthand evidence that “this guy is one of the very best hitters at his position,” would it pass unnoticed?
I’m sure I could go back and find other winners who didn’t deserve it. but that’s off the point. The reason for all this defense of Louisville Slugger is because it is being used (in a rhetorical fashion) to prove Sizemore’s value.
Kill the messenger here, but it doesn’t validate silly awards as proof of a player’s value.
And I don’t believe I’ve lost my argument about Sizemore’s real and perceived value, and whether it would make sense to trade him.
There is an emotional aspect to Indians’ fans love of Sizemore. We are loathe to mention or acknowledge it here, because LGT aspires to rationality. But it’s there, and it’s irrefutable.
what the heck point are you making?
People like Sizemore, probably more than he’s worth, because they are fans of him.
well, glad we sorted that out!
Yes, that’s about right. LGTers tend to overvalue Sizemore because they are fans. That is, they tend to overestimate Sizemore’s actual value. Pretty simple. That said, I don’t think I’d trade him. I don;t think he’ll be a good defensive centerfielder in three years, but he’s still valuable.
I don;t think he’ll be a good defensive centerfielder in three years
If I could remember this in three years, I’d challenge it.
Chugga-chugga chugga-chugga, Choo Choo!
I think he’s already diminished. He’ll turn 30 in August 2012. Torii Hunter fell off defensively (though he remains good) after age 27.
Obviously he’s diminished when he needs a groin operation.
Despite his all-around deification, Indians fans tend to exaggerate any little shortcoming with Grady. His arm has never been bad, merely average, but it sticks out by being only average and becomes bad.
The same goes for however diminished he may be now or may become. The likelihood is that he’ll be an above-average defender for another five years and possibly more.
There is no real basis for assuming he’ll be less than that.
Abdominal, wasn’t it? There’s no empirical basis for my prediction. I just think he is not an especially gifted CF (cf. to Gutierrez, Andruw) and compensates for weird routes, etc. with his speed. Once his speed lessens he won’t be able to outrun mistakes.
I just can’t buy that surgery is that big of a deal. Anyone who has played sports very seriously into college or after college seems likely to have some sort of surgery or another. It just isn’t that major anymore.
I think Chuck has a valid point, but maybe has obfuscated it with his argument ‘style.’ Simply put, what might be a more beneficial future plan:
A. Keep Sizemore through 2012, and hope you can compete/contend prior to that, then trade him before his contract is up/attempt to re-sign him prior to 2012.
B. Trade Sizemore prior to 2012 (2010?), add more prospects/depth to prepare for a contending team in 2012-beyond.
I can see how he might think B will put the club in a better place to contend in the future. However, outside of Brantley (not sold on him as a CF) there’s not anyone in the system to truly take Grady’s place currently.
"You just gotta roll with the ounches." - Clemson58YearOldMan
Rec for the Pantone 871-C reference.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 22, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Featured Stories
FanShots
Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.
Recent FanShots
In Association With
Big League Stew - MLB - Yahoo! Sports
- Photo: Padres fan regrets letting mother capture moment with Trevor Hoffman
- Marlins agree to unretire No. 5 for Logan Morrison, who will honor his father’s favorite player
- Weatherman Derek Holland does Dallas TV
- Ask Alex: Will Julio Teheran or Matt Moore win rookie of the year?
- Ku Klux Klan, umpires and bowling: Why the minor leagues tossed out Jim Evans academy
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
