Game 131: Tigers 8, Indians 5
by Ryan on Sep 2, 2009 12:19 AM EDT
in Game Recaps
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Tonight saw the debuts of two prospects, each a part of a major trade. Carlos Carrasco, sent over just a month ago from Philadelphia for Cliff Lee, made his first major-league start. And Michael Brantley, a major part of the CC Sabathia deal, started in left field. If everything works out just right, both Carrasco and Brantley will be fixtures in the rotation and lineup henceforth.
But that's the future. In the present - tonight's game - Carrasco lasted just three innings, giving up six runs on nine hits and three walks. And it could have been much worse; two of the outs he managed came on a line shot double play. His pitches seemed to putter along at the top of the strike zone, comfortable pitches to any lineup, even an offense that's underachieved in 2009. By the time the fourth ended, the Tigers had an 8-1 lead.
Even with that deficit, the Indians had enough opportunity to get back into the game. Tigers starter Edwin Jackson didn't have much command, though to his credit he got out of several jams without completely self-destructing. In the top of the fifth, Matt LaPorta came to the plate with two outs, representing the tying run. But he swung at Jackson's first pitch and popped it up, quickly ending what was beginning to look like a furious comeback. Jim Leyland had seen enough; he pulled Jackson, and buoyed by raft of reinforcements from the minors, was able to use his best relievers to finish the game.
Michael Brantley's debut went much better, though a hitter's performance is just one of many in a given game, and therefore less visible. He flicked his first major-league hit to center field, and then scored from first base on a Grady Sizemore double. Brantley had to hold up between first and second to make sure Magglio Ordonez wouldn't catch the ball, but still scampered home without a throw. His second hit came in the ninth on a dribbler up the middle. He didn't get out of the box quickly, but still eluded the first baseman's tag when Adam Everett's throw sailed high and into the runner. In baseball, speed is rather useless without some accompanying baseball skill, for it takes a baseball skill to get on base to begin with. Brantley, even at this early stage of his career, can be a useful player, since he has that combination of baseball ability and physical gifts.
Next Up: Laffey vs. Porcello, 7:05 PM
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Asdrubal Cabrera | .072 | Carlos Carrasco | -.379 |
| Grady Sizemore | .041 | Jhonny Peralta | -.131 |
| Tomo Ohka | .014 | Michael Brantley | -.054 |
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Comments
I’m really tempted to go over to cleveland.com and read all the “I can’t believe we traded Lee for this guy!” posts. Screw it, I’m doing it.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
The return so far on the Cliff Lee trade with Philadelphia has left something to be desired.
When the article written by the ostensible professional starts with that, you know it’s going to be bad, but
The Lee trade is a complete failure.has to be my favorite comment from the laypeople. Boogie2Shoes, come on down and claim your prize.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
You must have missed the one about Tommy John being an essentially routine, low impact procedure now.
The best thing I ever did was disable the comments on cleveland.com. Now the only ones to poison my brain are the ones paid to do so.
If you use Firefox, you can. Install Stylish, then apply this user style. The comments will be hidden by your browser.
by FredOx on Sep 2, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I have a lower tech solution. I don’t go to cleveland.com.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Sep 2, 2009 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Hoynes’s statement, while premature, is still valid. Two of the four people acquired are hurt, and the third is a work in progress. He’s being provocative, which is well within a newspaper writer’s purview.
Its prematurity renders it invalid. If this trade had been made for the impact it could have on this season, evaluating it now would be acceptable. This trade was made with 2011 in mind, so any evaluation of it before then, barring a career-ending injury, is illogical and fallacious. Ergo, Hoynes’ statement is borderline moronic, an indication of what might happen if you gave Simple Jack a column.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
I’m no fan of Hoynes, but I think in this case he simply went with a zinger for his lead. It doesn’t mean anything.
It means that Hoynes is a hack who goes for the unmerited zinger for the lead instead of providing thoughtful analysis and explanation. He’s just throwing red meat out there for the rabid haters which make up his fanbase.
I want it. I've been grinding it out for awhile.
The Dispatch used to send a beat writer to home games for the Reds and Indians. Now, they’ve worked out a trade with the PD and BJ and Dayton Daily News so that we get Hoynes or Ocker or Hal McCoy in our morning paper. I assume that those papers get Buckeye, Blue Jackets and Crew stories from the Dispatch. I’ve been greeted by Hoynes incoherent garbage at breakfast (or Ocker’s blathering) for the last few months and I’m none too happy about it.
I want it. I've been grinding it out for awhile.
I think even Hoynes realizes that you can’t judge Carrasco on one start. We all know he does a terrible job, but there’s no point in picking on every throwaway line he writes.
The story with Carrasco, for the average fan, is that we traded Cliff Lee for him. Everyone was excited to see what he had in his first start. He was awful. If you’re a reporter, that’s your lead.
I do wish there had been some cogent analysis in the actual story, of course, but that’s a different matter.
Try being a writer who goes for “thoughtful analysis” over “unmerited zingers.” See how well your career proceeds. He’s joking around. Give him a break.
Not a chance I will give him a break, ever. There are plenty of writers who engage in thoughtful analysis over unmerited zingers. Maybe Hoynes could ask Terry Pluto for some tips. Without hacks like Paul Hoynes throwing chum in the water, there wouldn’t be as many idiots spouting their Dolan is Cheap! nonsense, and we wouldn’t have people wandering over here complaining about Cheapiro. It’s certainly easier to make “jokes” than to actually do your job, but that doesn’t make it right.
You can do thoughtful analysis at a junior-high level (which is what most newspaper stories are written at). Sure, it’s not going to be as in-depth as anything at BP or THT, but you can educate the fans instead of playing in to their fears. Even simple things like not making a big deal about small sample sizes and explaining some basic economic factors of the game would help to educate the fans. Hoynes (and his like) are feeding the idiots.
Pluto is a good example of a writer who tries to educate the fans as he writes while still keeping this on their level. Although I chuckle every time he writes “the Indians love the OPS” at least he’s making an effort.
To blame Hoynes for the Cheap is Dolan crowd is like blaming CNN for the Iraq war. Hoynes regularly fields questions—accusations, really—from readers who are livid about the perceived penury of the Dolans. And he corrects them, time after time, and points out that such is the reality of professional sports, especially baseball. The rabble, the canaille who want to appropriate the Dolans’ wealth exist without any assistance from anyone. They don’t get their ideas from Hoynes. They get their ideas from their own confined, wretched worlds. It’s a pathology derived from their own lives, not from something they read in the newspaper.
Terry’s a different kind of writer. He hasn’t been a beat writer for many years. He does his basketball, and his Akron stuff, and his religion columns. Hoynes is a drummer in a cover band, and Pluto is a cocktail pianist. Why doesn’t Bill Livingston enter, or Bud Shaw, or heaven forbid Sheldon Ocker? Terry is a gem, but he can be mawkish. Hoynes has a sense of humor, a Cleveland gallows humor that apparently jibes well with Albert Belle and Jhonny Peralta. When I watch the dugout interviews with Wedge on cleveland.com, Hoynes seems on the ball. People talk to him.
From the gamethread:
vbc3 — “Did we throw away the receipt?”
supermarioella — “I want Cliff Lee back.”
westbrook — “FIRST EVER SEPTEMBER CALL-DOWN”
We all made the same joke Hoynes did. As Logo said:
“It’s fun to overreact to unmitigated catastrophe.”
Actually, there were some of us in the game thread who thought it was a little bit absurd to be jumping all over a 22 year old pitcher making his first major league start. You’re making an assumption that (a) Hoynes wrote this as humor, rather than an attempt to work the Dolan is Cheap chest-beaters into a lather; and (b) that his readers perceive it as a joke. I don’t think either of those assumptions is warranted.
Maybe it’s true that there isn’t much of a market for thoughtful analysis, and the role of thoughtful analyst at the PD is already filled. If so, that’s sad, because we need all the help we can get to teach the average fans about the reality of baseball economics. Guys like Paul Hoynes just make those fans think that if we had a different owner, we could be the Yankees.
You’re making an assumption that (a) Hoynes wrote this as humor, rather than an attempt to work the Dolan is Cheap chest-beaters into a lather; and (b) that his readers perceive it as a joke. I don’t think either of those assumptions is warranted.
Exactly right. That’s the difference — we all know those comments in the game-thread were made in jest. Just like there’s a big difference between saying “I’m going to kill you” to a buddy in jest and making the same statement in a letter to someone.
But those comments weren’t the lead of a lead article on a sports page by a professional sportswriter. They were in a game thread, i.e., essentially bar-room conversation. It’s silly to apply the same standard.
by Jay on Sep 2, 2009 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
This is the key. Hoynes is getting paid and is read by way more people than vbc, mario, and Jake Westbrook were in the game thread.
but can we take a second to appreciate how awesome it is that jake westbrook comments in game threads?
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Sep 2, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Fun side note: if Granderson doesn’t lose his footing rounding second and that second homer had actually stayed in the yard like Manning thought it had, CC would have given up the cycle in his first 4 ABs against, which I can’t imagine has ever happened.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
It actually has happened. I don’t know how many times, but I remember the Indians doing it against Ervin Santana in Santana’s big league debut back in 2005:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/CLE/CLE200505170.shtml
Sizemore triple, Crisp double, Hafner single, Broussard homer.
I hate seeing Broussard’s name more than I hate seening Brandon Phillips’s.
by JulioBernazard on Sep 2, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
junkballer, your decision to visit cle.com inspired me;
i laughed, and went there as well.
man, phoynes disgusts me … he’s so bad at this point,
he might as well host a postgame radio show.
"and if it stays fair, it's going to be ... A FAIR BALL!"
by manny trillo electric toothbrush on Sep 2, 2009 1:15 AM EDT reply actions
seriously, those first couple paragraphs reminded me of
this idiotic soundbite from brinda last year, late in the season,
saying - take a minute here to remember the year sizemore had -
that he wanted “more” out of him, as his BA wasn’t high enough.
i understand, yeah, you’ve got a market to play to, sure.
but even for this town, that’s … depressing
"and if it stays fair, it's going to be ... A FAIR BALL!"
by manny trillo electric toothbrush on Sep 2, 2009 1:26 AM EDT reply actions
I know we make fun of the people that call Dolan cheap, and I agree that it’s silly. But — honest question — how in the world are the Tigers affording a $119 million payroll? Detroit’s in even worse shape than Cleveland, right? Are they just losing money hand over fist?
What Mariah said. And owners aren’t always a direct reflection of the town of the team they own. Also, while that city does have their own economic problem, they probably don’t lose nearly as much money to the Lions as we do to the Browns.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
Brantley really hit the ball on the screws in ABs 2 and 3. He looked pretty good for his first major league game.
I had never seen Carrasco pitch before, but I surmised a couple of weeks ago that with his high hits allowed totals, his fastball was probably very hittable.
And it’s only one game, but that’s the way it appears to be. His fastball is straight as an arrow, so he’ll have to figure out a way to command it better. Judging from his walks allowed totals, I think he can do that. It also may help if he adds some velocity as he grows into his body.
His changeup is really good, and that’s probably his main strikeout pitch. But as he matures into a big-league starter, I think we’ll have to live with high BABIP’s.
I saw a few fastballs that had some tailing action toward a right-handed batter. Others were completely straight and above the belt. When the Tigers announcers told the anecdote about Pujols giving Carrasco advice in preseason so as not to tip his pitches, I think they were onto something. When he opens his front shoulder too soon, it will be a lot easier for the hitter to sit on tee off on the fastball.
Yeah, he jammed Carrasco with some movement, but that was the 13th hitter, and the first hitter to put the ball in play that wasn’t a line drive or a rocket.
What was the Pujols story? I watched the STO version last night.
In spring training, Pujols talked to Carrasco after the game and told him that every time he opens his front shoulder too early, he knows exactly what pitch is coming. Pujols told him if he doesn’t focus on that, he will get hammered in the big leagues.
I saw a little bit of this last night on the fastball.
One of the few baseball games I’ve managed to see live this season featured Carrasco starting for Lehigh Valley against Columbus. The result was similar to last night, hard hit balls and an early exit. Michael Brantley crushed one over the right field fence.
At the time, I was aware that Carrasco was a pretty good prospect, but I came away being quite unimpressed. Cleary, the guy does some things well, and I’ve managed to see him on a couple of off-nights, but I don’t like how easily hitters are getting good wood on the ball.
To add to TribeJay’s point about the hit totals, he also gives up the long ball at a pretty good clip. This season, he’s given up 20 in 160 professional innings and last year, he gave up 14 in 150 innings, primarily spent at AA.
I find myself getting a little obsessed about our draft position. There are a whole bunch of teams bunched up between 5th-worst and 11th-worst, all within 2.5 games. We’re in the middle, and there’s a big talent difference between #5 and #11. Bottom line, I won’t complain if we tank a bunch of games at this point. As long as Shoppach, Peralta and Marte keep hitting.
I am the opposite. I’d like to see some of our young guys actually perform well in September, which presumably means winning games. On the other hand I care next to zero about our draft position.
by APV on Sep 2, 2009 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
An improved draft position is like free money, even if all you can do with it is put it on a roulette wheel.
September wins are just an opiate to the extreme diehards. We need to make decisions on certain guys, so I want them to do well. Grady was mediocre in his 2004 callup, and that turned out okay. Garko electrified in 2006 with all those RBI, but so what?
As an aside, doesn’t Marte already seem like a lock to stay on the roster? Oddly, we go into 2010 with no clear incumbent at first base, and that’s assuming Peralta isn’t traded. You know who could use a nice little make-good post-rehab deal on a club with a great training staff? Nick Johnson.
by Jay on Sep 2, 2009 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
My view of the draft is that there are 2-3 guys each year who seem like sure things (with representative high contract demands), and then a bunch of guys who seem like 1st round talent even if teams differ wildly on where they fit in the first round. And who gets taken where has as much to do with perceived contract demands as assessment of talent. We aren’t in position to get one of those obvious guys so I don’t care where we end up in the 5-15 territory.
by APV on Sep 2, 2009 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
But the numbers show that there is a real difference between #5 talent and #15 talent. If you can get a #5 guy to slide to you at #15, great, but that’s not the same thing as having your pick.
by Jay on Sep 2, 2009 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, but the extension of Adam’s point is we’re not going to take the #5 guy, if the FO thinks his contract demands are out of line with his value. So we’re quite likely to take someone closer on the talent spectrum to the #15 guy… even at #5.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 2, 2009 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
I might get blasted for this, but I can’t get excited about a #5 pick who is likely to be one of more of:
1) A bust
2) Jeremy Sowers
3) Ready in 2014
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
by westbrook on Sep 3, 2009 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He does deserve that…..soooo….why would he become a Cleveland Indian?
by supermarioelia on Sep 2, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
CF Grady Sizemore, SS Asdrubal Cabrera, RF Shin-Soo Choo, 3B Jhonny Peralta, DH Travis Hafner, 2B Luis Valbuena, 1B Andy Marte, LF Michael Brantley, C Wyatt Toregas. LHP Aaron Laffey
12 straight games for LaPorta. 12 out of 13 is a 150-game run rate
I reserve the right to complain about Gimenez at 1B and Carroll in the OF, no matter the facts. - FredOx
by DontCallMeJoey on Sep 2, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
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