Indians manager Eric Wedge fired
by Jay on Sep 30, 2009 11:42 AM EDT
in News
408 comments
The Indians have informed Eric Wedge that he willl not return as manager next season. His entire coaching staff is also being released, although one or more may be re-hired by the next manager. Wedge and the coaches will finish out the season in Boston this weekend.
Wedge has a career record of 560–568 and is the fifth longest-tenured manager in major league baseball. Clint Hurdle, who previously held the fifth slot, was fired earlier this year by the Rockies. The Indians opened the season 14–26 and more recently went through a 3–20 stretch.
Shapiro's comments from today's 1:30 p.m. press conference, courtesy of woodsmeister [followed by my comments]:
- Next manager strong voice in determining staff, so staff will not be back. [Pretty standard move.]
- Wedge “epitome of team player”, “exemplary leader.” [I don't doubt this, but that doesn't mean he created an environment conducive to winning or got the most out of each player.]
- On why – “accountability lies across the organization.” This starts with Shapiro, extends to operations staff and players. “As we examined everything … we felt this was the right time to make a change on Eric … Arrived at decision collectively that this was the right time for a change.” [Of course, we likely won't ever know who really wanted what, among Shapiro, Antonetti, and the Dolans.]
-
“My reluctance is more related to my emotions, and my underlying respect for Eric.”
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“Any time there is change, there is an opportunity, and we have to seize the opportunity.” [Another management fortune cookie.]
- “I was hopeful that this wasn’t going to come. I was hopeful that there would be an opportunity to create a more positive environment for him to continue here.” [Coming close to saying this is a PR firing only, but maybe "positive environment" refers to the clubhouse as much as the public perception.]
- “From the time we’d made the decision, Eric’s known.” [He clearly knew when Castro posted that last Q&A.]
- On why fans Ohio don’t like Wedge — “He’s consistent. This is an entertainment business and maybe he’s not flamboyant enough.” [Maybe. Or maybe it's all the losing. How many managers are actually popular?]
- “The goal would be to build a team that never dips too far down, that has opportunities to contend and play in the postseason as regularly as possible. I think the goal does evolve as the game evolves, and as the terrain evolves. I would hope we never go through a prolonged losing period and have consistent windows to contend.” [In a way, this was Wedge's downfall. The 2006 and 2008 clubs posted mediocre records but not out-and-out disasters. This was his first truly bad club.]
- On Wedge -“He’s very consistent with the values of Northeast Ohio. He’s a blue collar worker, hard-nosed guy, extremely honest. Extremely consistent. In the end, maybe why, this isn’t entertainment, it’s business. Maybe he wasn’t flamboyant enough, kept his feelings internal. Fans want to see those, on the shirtsleeve, they want to feel the frustration, they want to feel the emotion, and Eric, to protect the players, didn’t often do that.” [Yet he still dimed out Peralta repeatedly.]
- “There were tough times, when he and I bumped heads.” [Wouldn't we love to know what those were, other than cutting loose Brandon Phillips.]
And now comments from Wedge:
- It was his decision to stick around the last few games. “I’d still want to finish what we started here. It would be the right thing for the players. One thing we’ve always done here is to put the players first.”
- “I think it’s how you finish, not how you start.” [Unintentional humor here? Maybe if he thought it was "how you start," we wouldn't have started terribly almost every year of his tenure.]
- “I’m the manager of the team. It’s my job to go out and win ballgames. You know, there's not an asterisk after that saying, it's only if you have this, that or the other. I’m a big believer in being accountable for what I do. I preach that to the players, it's the way I live my life.”
- On managing a mid-market team – “It’s more challenging but it’s also more rewarding. What we came so close to doing in 07 is pretty special stuff. One thing about the Dolans – they’ve always allowed Mark and me as leaders of this organization to do what we think is best for this team.” [He hints here at an organizational issue, i.e., the manager as somewhat co-equal to the GM.]
- Hasn’t given much thought to what’s next. Concerned about “finishing this thing off the right way.”
- “As a manager, you have to work off the players you have. That dictates how you manage. It’s my job to work off that and win as many games as possible.”
- “I was here in the beginning, I understand really rebuilding, starting from scratch. This is not that situation here in Cleveland. You need to understand that, fans need to understand that. You have a solid organization, a solid minor league system. You have a process that works, here in this market. So they’re going to be fine. You have to work off the market, the economy, what you’re able to do here. You have some young, talented baseball players that are learning every day."
- "It's been a long run here, I guess as managers go. I've got a great deal of respect for the city of Cleveland and Tribe fans all over the place, and I'm a big believer in wearing the uniform with pride."
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No, we’ll call him up and he’ll tell us he’s got a guy on the other line asking about some white walls
"It’s tough," Martinez said. "This is my house. This is my home."
We'll miss you, Vic
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Sep 30, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Finally. recville population cleveland
"It’s tough," Martinez said. "This is my house. This is my home."
We'll miss you, Vic
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Sep 30, 2009 11:49 AM EDT reply actions
Odd time to announce this. Why turn Wedge into a lame duck when you can just fire him outright in a week?
I think Charlie Manuel stormed in there and demanded to know whether Wedge was staying or not. Shapiro had no choice but to be honest.
by xrickx on Sep 30, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So the local media can get his take.
No, not you. Your helmet!
by PatBordersHelmet on Sep 30, 2009 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, that’s what I was wondering. Why now? Did something happen yesterday to make them do this before the season ends?
by Buckeye Brad on Sep 30, 2009 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah. He announced that Tomo Ohka is going to start the season finale in Boston.
by lenred on Sep 30, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I know. This seems like it came a week early or three months late.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
3 months late. This couldn’t have come early enough.
by MooneysRebellion on Sep 30, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought I’d feel more happy about this. But strangely, I’m just glad the waiting is over. Time to move on.
-Erik
Pretty much.
Who needs affection when you can have blind hatred?
by ClemsonGirl on Sep 30, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
This was supposed to be the high point of the offseason for me. What do I have to look forward to baseball-wise for the next five and a half months until pitchers and catchers report?
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 30, 2009 12:05 PM EDT reply actions
1) new manager
2) new players
3) yankee/red sox offseason spending
by xrickx on Sep 30, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I keep forgetting this means we have to hire someone.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 30, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
having to wait until they find someone won’t be fun.
"It’s tough," Martinez said. "This is my house. This is my home."
We'll miss you, Vic
by BLAZER_FAN_199 on Sep 30, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
4)yankees/red sox losing in the playoffs
by The Grimace on Sep 30, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Hello, Cleveland! We’re the Jordan Brown Backlash and we’re here to rock you! We’re not here to walk – we’re here to rock! But not with a lot of power.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Timing
I wonder if the timing has something to do with the series in Boston. MLB has alot of weird rules about when you can interview someone during the playoffs. Maybe Boston waived Farrell’s non-compete clause but only if the Indians interviewed him now?
He’s too twitchy for the camera.
No, not you. Your helmet!
by PatBordersHelmet on Sep 30, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s still under contract to Cleveland. My guess is that he takes a year off, but it might be smart just to put his name right back out there immediately. He is well liked and respected within the game.
I think if he gets another job in baseball, the Indians can subtract whatever he makes from what they owe him.
Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO
No, that’s the standard player contract, governed by the CBA.
In a standard employment contract, you have to give up one contract to accept another.
wouldn’t there likely be some buyout situation as part of the firing? I mean, I’d be surprised if he was on the payroll all next year.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
while not relevant to the above question (that is, not as a part of the firing), wouldn’t he be more likely to accept a buyout in order to take another job elsewhere?
this of course assumes some team wants ot hire him for ’10.
You are reading my signature.
Take a buyout of 600K and he gets to look for/take another job for 1 M.
by Ryan Kelsey on Sep 30, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
You guys are not getting it.
If he gets another job, the Indians have no reason to give him a buyout. They simply agree to let him out of the contract.
If he doesn’t get another job, Wedge has no reason to accept a buyout. He simply sits home and collects the money.
There is no in-between scenario. He is not going to accept less money to be someone’s bench coach.
Of course there’s an in-between scenario – negotiation between now and the time he gets (or starts interviewing for) the next job. The Indians are on the hook, and Wedge may or may not want to work.
You’re right that Wedge doesn’t “rationally” choose to work for under $1M, but who knows where his feelings lie? Maybe he just wants to stay in the game.
You know, I think the part we are missing is what the contract itself says about a firing. I know most of these contracts in major college sports and the NFL include buyout provisions. The firing is a buyout. It is for a predetermined amount depending on how much time is left on the contract.
I guess it might not be the norm in the MLB, but that is what I was thinking.
It’s no Xanadu. But then again, little is.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 30, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Castrovince puts it in a context of more to come:
“The dismissal of the 41-year-old Wedge is the first major change among the organization’s higher-ups, and it serves as the Tribe’s mea culpa, of sorts, to a fan base frustrated by the recent trades of star players Cliff Lee and Victor Martinez..”
by MTF on Sep 30, 2009 12:15 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Why now
and not in a week? What’s the advantage of making the last couple games that much worse? Although maybe that last sentence doesn’t make any sense.
BSD
Considering that your first sentence was half in bold and split between two lines, the last sentence wasn’t so rough.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
by junkballer on Sep 30, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Maybe they want to give Wedge a public farewell in Cleveland, rather than an implied one.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
People are lining the streets of Cleveland. There’s an impromptu parade.
No word yet on whether it’s celebratory or mournful.
last ditch effort to get butts into seats for today’s two fer. Interesting marketing idea.
by MooneysRebellion on Sep 30, 2009 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
that’d be awesome and interesting to watch.
by MooneysRebellion on Sep 30, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
He Gone!
As the white sox announcer would say… This is the one time I would actually enjoy hearing him say that.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 12:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
It’s not like I said I like when he says that any time Wedge is not fired!
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 12:21 PM EDT up reply actions
we know, its just the mere mention of that idiot phrase makes my stomach turn.
by MooneysRebellion on Sep 30, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry for my insensitivity. It did not let me self-flag the comment though.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
It’s just one of those things you have to figure out … that not every idea that you have is a good idea.
“not every idea that you have is a good idea.”
Nonsense.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I could be okay with this.
by MooneysRebellion on Sep 30, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t think Jeremy could grow facial hair…
by MooneysRebellion on Sep 30, 2009 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sal was Sower’s personal catcher last year. Since LGT is clamoring for Sowers to be moved to the bullpen due to the third time through the order issues, Fasano will be perfect for him. Also, try to read the SI story regarding Fasano’s current situation.
I know, I apologize…I was being sarcastic. I have read the article…good piece, kind of sad. I wouldn’t mind Fasano coming back in some position or another.
by MooneysRebellion on Sep 30, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Cardinals fans think that Duncan was part of the reason why they included him in the trade, and why he wasn’t reaching his full potential.
I’m willing to bank on the more recent projects of Braden Looper, Todd Wellemeyer (however short lived), Pineiro, and Ryan Franklin and suggest that he’s as good as there is when it comes to tapping into “full potential.”
LGT likes this.So who is going to be the new lame duck manager?
They will have to have these qualifications:
1. Come cheap
2. See number one
I feel inspired already!
Now the team can focus on winning the last 6 and not on the fate of the manager.
by palcal on Sep 30, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
rec
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Shorter version: The Cleveland Indians have decided to Fire Everyone. Manager Eric Wedge will not be retained, nor will any of the coaches. Nor will Slider, the fans, or the dude at the pastry stand in the lower concourse. Everyone is fired. “That LGT seems pretty darn prescient,” Mark Shapiro told Paul Hoynes, who responded, “What’s LGT?”
Wedge had enough grit to hang on long enough to be ranked 5th among ML managers in tenure with his current team.
He ran into one.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
by junkballer on Sep 30, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
He swings the same no matter who the manager is.
by MooneysRebellion on Sep 30, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
AC’s article mentions that the Red Sox will consider compensation in return for removing the restriction in Farrell’s contract.
by palcal on Sep 30, 2009 12:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
When it comes to candidates to replace Wedge, former Tribe pitcher and farm director and current Red Sox pitching coach John Farrell has been a popular possibility listed by fans and the media, though he has no managerial experience at any level. But according to a recent report in FoxSports.com, Farrell has a clause in his contract that prevents him from accepting a managerial job with another team until after the 2010 season. However, a subsequent report in The Boston Globe indicated that the clause could be removed if the Red Sox received some sort of compensation.
from here
Maybe we could return the compensation they provided us when they hired him away to be their pitching coach.
I could go for that – however, I don’t recall what that compensation was off the top of my head? Could someone mention it – thanks!
(I am jesting, of course, but what compensation did we get for their hiring of Farrell – just curious – thanks!)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Due to Masterson’s ’09 performance, they still owe us compensation.
by JulioBernazard on Sep 30, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s crap.
If the Red Sox really want to deny permission for their employees to interview for promotions, shame on them.
It’s a limited term — one theory I’ve read is that he got a three-year deal in exchange for three years of exclusivity. Which is possible. They know they can’t limit employees in general.
He’s the Don Draper of Baseball!
"You just gotta roll with the ounches." - Clemson58YearOldMan
by emd2k3 on Sep 30, 2009 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
not sure why, but I was always excited to see the Tom Raper RV billboard on I-75 west.
You are reading my signature.
I-75 West? West?
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
I’ve been on 75 West in Florida. I do not recall seeing any Tom Raper RV signs.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Having said that, I don’t believe the Red Sox would deny Farrell this opportunity. Farrell was hired away from the Indians, he pitched for the Indians, and he and his family live in Cleveland. It would be exceptionally douchey of them.
so…. you’re saying he’s not coming to Cleveland, huh?
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Sep 30, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
Exactly. If you’re not going to let the guy manage, you don’t deny him the chance to be one of only 30 in that position.
Well on one hand we have the Cleveland organization that looks to aquire a certain personality makeup in their players (grinders perhaps!?!), and we have the Red Sox who apparently love to aquire douche bags. I’m not sure how one becomes interested in collecting douche bags if one isn’t at least enamored with douche bags, it doesn’t seem like something even a neutral party would partake in doing because of the level of doucheyness involved.
I’m not sure how one becomes interested in collecting douche bags if one isn’t at least enamored with douche bags
I think they just don’t care if the players are douchebags.
A trait that Indians management should consider adopting.
by kennesawmountainwahoo on Sep 30, 2009 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I remember some suggesting that the main reason the Red Sox were able to hit (Raffy) Perez in the 2007 ALCS when no one else (Yankees included) could in 2007 was because Farrell clued the Red Sox in on something in Perez’s delivery. Whether that’s true or not, I can’t say, but perhaps the Red Sox would be leery of Farrell revealing “inside information” on some of Boston’s pitching if he came here, and perhaps we could pay back Boston for 1999 and 2007. :-)
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
“Some” “suggest” a lot of BS. That information sure didn’t help Boston in the regular season: strikeout, flyout, double (to RH Manny of course), groundout, strikeout, groundout, strikeout.
It would beexceptionally doucheycompletely appropriate of them.
Fixed.
"You just gotta roll with the ounches." - Clemson58YearOldMan
To some people (not you, as stated above, or me) exceptionally douchey = completely appropriate when talking in terms of the Red Sox. Maybe I should have said “completely routine” or something else.
"You just gotta roll with the ounches." - Clemson58YearOldMan
Let me add, I am pleased about cleaning house with the whole stuff. I was not in the retain Willis camp.
he’ll give the stop sign to Marte on a HR.
Wedge’s orders.
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Sep 30, 2009 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 5 recs
As happy as I am over the Wedge change, I think the Skinner change makes me equally as happy – he’s made some very questionable “moves” over at 3B over the years, particularly the Lofton “stop” in the 2007 ALCS, one that I truly believe was a major mistake, especially considering Lofton’s speed, where he was at in regards to 3B, where the ball was, and who the OF was (Ramirez – strong, but inaccurate, arm). All that, in my opinion, adds to Lofton scoring almost without question, and that would have been the tying run. Never mind the fact that Blake, the next hitter, had a reputation of not being a good clutch hitter and having a propensity of striking out – he made contact but hit into the DP.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Most of those off Betancourt, if I recall correctly.
My point is that if that game is tied up, it’s a much different ballgame – it was in the 8th after all. Personally, I don’t think Boston goes on to score 8 in the bottom half if we tie that ballgame up or take the lead in the top half – I think that blown opportunity, both by Skinner and Blake (but I blame Skinner more for the reason I mentioned above – he SHOULD have sent Lofton without question, especially when you see him send slower-footed players like Hafner and LaPorta when better OFers than Manny already have the ball in their possession, which Manny didn’t on that play in the 2007 ALCS – why do you think Lofton was that shocked when he was told to stop?) affected the team and got them down.
After all, they only had one more at-bat, against Papelbon, who was one of the best closers in the league, even at that time, so their chances of coming back to tie or take the lead were arguably slimmer than the opportunity that was right there in the 8th inning – all Skinner had to do was make the logical choice and send Lofton.
Whether you believe Boston would have scored 8 runs in the bottom half or not if the Indians had tied or taken the lead is your opinion; my belief is that that would NOT have happened, that the Indians had some of their “steam” or “air” taken out of them by the missed opportunity in the 8th. Did Blake’s DP have something to do with that? Certainly, but it’s also likely that Skinner’s choice to hold Lofton had as much or more to do with it, being that Lofton very likely would have scored on that play, based on all of the factors mentioned above. It’s quite likely that Lofton wasn’t the only one surprised by Skinner’s decision to hold him – you don’t think that would affect the team psychologically, especially after we fail to score runs in the top half? You don’t think that might have had something to do with Boston exploding for 8 runs in the bottom half, especially off of a pitcher who had dominated the whole season and dominated that whole series? I think it did, but we’ll never know for sure – it’s a matter of opinion, and you’re entitled to yours as I’m entitled to mine.
My opinion is that, based on Betancourt’s track record in 2007 and the fact that we failed to take advantage of a golden opportunity in the 8th of Game 7, I think that had as much to do with Boston inexplicably exploding for 8 runs when their offense did virtually nothing up to that point and did virtually nothing off of Betancourt throughout that whole series – yes, they got to Perez and Lewis, but not Betancourt, and I have a hard time believing that the top of the 8th didn’t affect their psyche, especially in hostile Fenway Park and one inning left to go. You can say they cracked under the pressure or choked, but I believe that 8-run 8th inning doesn’t happen if we tie it up or take the lead there. In fact, if we had tied it up or taken the lead, I think there was a very real chance we could have won Game 7 – even the Boston fans were getting nervous according to the commentators and from what I seen and heard on the telecast (the quieting of the crowd is also what I’m going by when making that comment – they weren’t nearly as loud or confident when the Indians had that threat going in the 8th inning).
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
What crap. When you give up 8 runs, it isn’t because of some mysterious “momentum” force of the universe, it’s because you got beat — badly. No doubt luck is involved. No doubt there is some chance that you give up 0 runs, or 2 runs, but it’s remote. And the reason it’s remote is that when you give up 8 runs, the chances are excellent that the pitcher simply did not have his best stuff or control that day. I can’t imagine how that has anything to do with Skinner, Blake or Lofton.
I believe in chaos theory, that there is a chance it plays out differently if Lofton scores and ties the game. If Manny attempts to throw out Lofton at home, then Gutierrez advances to second negating the chance of a double play during Blake’s at bat. There is a chance we plate another run.
But then give up 8 the next inning and lose.
"You just gotta roll with the ounches." - Clemson58YearOldMan
Okay, we give up 5 and a half and lose!
"You just gotta roll with the ounches." - Clemson58YearOldMan
by emd2k3 on Oct 1, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Baseball is procedural. So nothing that followed would have proceeded as it did had Lofton scored. Mandlebrot set.
Because there are so many variables. All the subsequent plays are informed by what went before them. Different pitches would then have been thrown. Blake doesn’t swing at the first pitch because he has dirt in his eye from Lofton’s slide.
“So you’re saying there’s a chance …”
Yes, there is a chance, but it’s in the single-digits as a percentage. We’re still sending Betancourt out regardless of how many runs we score, and there’s little reason to think he would have been any different with a one-run lead than he was with a one-run deficit.
It isn’t anything as brainy as chaos theory, it’s just understanding that outcomes in baseball are influenced by chance and minute differences in human performance. I’m just saying, a beat-down that bad, Betancourt just didn’t have it that day. I think the onus is on you to explain WHY we should believe Betancourt DID have it that day but was just extraordinarily unlucky.
by Jay on Oct 1, 2009 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Can’t say this. Maybe the Indians score three runs, and another pitcher comes in. Maybe Blake catches ellsbury’s pop. Maybe Blake turns an ankle on a ground-rule double and is not at third in the bottom of the inning.
We say it didn’t matter because it makes us feel better about the eventual outcome.
I don’t feel the least bit better about the eventual outcome. I just think it’s foolish to think of the Lofton-Skinner thing as a turning point. We lost by 8 runs, that’s the incontrovertible fact. Those other things you mention, those are things that might have happened, but none of them were likely to happen.
by Jay on Oct 1, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Lofton scoring almost without question
I think this is revisionistic. He probably scores, but not “almost without question.” Maybe a 20 percent chance of being out.
How would you have handicapped it? This is intersting—it’s how events become a narrative. What were his chances of getting thrown out?
Honestly, I think given how slow Manny was jogging to the ball and the fact that it was Manny, I would say like 98/2 that he scores.
This is revisionist.
And anyway, Skinner doesn’t get to see how the play turns out, he has to make the call as the ball is careening directly at Manny, on the ground. And Lofton is 47 years old and not as fast as he used to be.
by Jay on Oct 1, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Well I felt that way at the time so I don’t know if it is revisionist. Maybe I am just way off in my judgment, but to me it looked like there would not have been a play at the plate.
I get that it is different than Skinner having to predict what will happen, but my friends that like the Red Sox all said that play almost always happens that way at Fenway and that it was completely botched.
Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO
by westbrook on Sep 30, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
We made a big mistake. Not saying what the mistake was, but it involves a goat.
by FredOx on Sep 30, 2009 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don’t know … all managers know that they’re going to be fired. My guess is that at this point, he feels more empathy with Wedge than rivalry.
Judging by his comments after the World Series, he still holds a mammoth grudge about being let go in 2002.
Brantley cf, cabrera ss, Choo rf, Peralta 3b, Hafner dh, LaPorta 1b, valbuena 2b, marson c, Crowe lf, Carmona
Per Castrovince
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Is Marte a vampire? That would explain a lot.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Castrovince tweet.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Bruce Drennan currently bloviating on STO – waiting for presser.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
I had no idea he used it. I barely have any idea who he is. It seems he would be someone likely to bloviate.
Sorry, I honestly don’t even know what side of the aisle he falls on. I was making a snap judgment based on the picture I googled. Mea culpa.
You don’t know?
Is this a common thing on LGT, people don’t know even the most obvious political allegiances?
by Jay on Oct 1, 2009 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I would say most of us are aware but try to avoid any sort of political comment at all. May sometimes come across as politically dense.
Was there a need for a personal attack ?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 2, 2009 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry for that — I haven’t been showing especially good leadership on this.
Let me be blunt … the quality of discourse here has gone downhill over the last few months. Many of our most diehard contributors have just dropped off, and while there are some great newer contributors, the harsh reality is that the overall quality is down.
I know I’m not the only one who is turned off or frustrated by this. You personally may be more a product of the decline (it was like this when you got here) rather than a contributor to it. So maybe you just ran into it. In any event, you’re right, the personal attacks are uncalled for.
by Jay on Oct 3, 2009 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions
I get most of my political news from what I consider impartial sources. I attempt to stay away from either extreme and use the facts to reach my own, informed conclusion and I actually consider myself more knowledgeable than the average person. I know a bit of Mr. O’Reilly, but the aforementioned ideas keep me from knowing too much about him.
I tried very hard to keep that non-political.
Shapiro – Wedge “epitome of team player”, “exemplary leader”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
Shaprio on why – “accountability lies across the organization.” This extends to staff, including Wedge. “As we examined everything… we felt this was the right time to make a change on Eric….Arrived at decision collectively that this was the right time for a change.”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
Shapiro – “My reluctance is more related to my emotions, and my underlying respect for Eric.”
“Any time there is change, there is an opportunity, and we have to seize the opportunity.”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
Shapiro, on why fans Ohio don’t like Wedge — “He’s consistent. This is an entertainment business and maybe he’s not flamboyant enough.”
Maybe the new manager will be Doc Sverinsen, or a flamingo.
by DuffBeer on Sep 30, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can finally stop paying $11.34/yr to keep reregistering FireEricWedge.com
by gte619n on Sep 30, 2009 1:44 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Not if he gets another job.
"You just gotta roll with the ounches." - Clemson58YearOldMan
by emd2k3 on Oct 1, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Shapiro – “The goal would be to build a team that never dips too far down, that has opportunities to contend and play in the postseason as regularly as possible. I think the goal does evolve as the game evolves, and as the terrain evolves. I would hope we never go through a prolonged losing period and have consistent windows to contend”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
Shapiro – Whoever is hired, Shapiro hopes he has as close a relationship with “that guy” as he did with Wedge.
So we know the next manager won’t be female.
by xrickx on Sep 30, 2009 1:47 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I’d have rec’d this, but for Belichek.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 30, 2009 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Shapiro on Wedge -“He’s very consistent with the values of Northeast ohio. He’s a blue collar worker, hard-nosed guy, extremely honest. Extremely consistent. In the end, maybe why, this isn’t entertainment, it’s business. Maybe he wasn’t flamboyant enough, kept his feelings internal. Fans want to see those, on the shirtsleeve, they want to feel the frustration, they want to feel the emotion, and Eric, to protect the players, didn’t often do that.”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
Shapiro – “There were tough times, when he and I bumped heads”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
Literally. They were walking in the hallway, neither being very mindful of the other. They bumped heads.
The parrot was secretly delighted.
Oh sure. But this is drunk logic. Also, time-traveling potatoes.--AngG
by Julie on Sep 30, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The ESPN lead article includes a video, subtitled “On what the Indians firing of Eric Wedge means to the Red Sox.”
JESUS, ESPN. JESUS. REALLY?
I saw something funny in a Sportsguy ESPN.com chat once.
A user asked the question, “Is ESPNBoston.com the most redudant thing ever?”
by Roger Dorn on Sep 30, 2009 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
So… he’s kinda blind to the fact that his employer shares the same sports bias he does?
by JulioBernazard on Sep 30, 2009 10:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Wedge – “I think it’s how you finish, not how you start.”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
Yeah, there are degrees of meaning here. We’re not talking about “slow starts,” we’re talking about hope-crushing faceplants out of the gate.
by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
The man is due to make seven figures for eating Pringles next season and may never again hurt for money in his life. Animated? Hell, I’d be Pixared.
by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2009 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
The man is due to make seven figures for eating Pringles next season
This is a dream of mine.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 30, 2009 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, as an addendum, you know, he doesn’t have to watch this effing baseball team anymore. He’s got that on all of us.
by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Now I really do hate him.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 30, 2009 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Wedge – on managing a mid-market team – “It’s more challenging but it’s also more rewarding. What we came so close to doing in 07 is pretty special stuff. One thing about the Dolans – they’ve always allowed Mark and me as leaders of this organization to do what we think is best for this team.”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
Wedge – hasn’t given much thought to what’s next. Concerned about “finishing this thing off the right way.”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
AKA “Keeping Marte on the bench”
Captain of the SS [DO NOT TRADE] CHOO
by westbrook on Sep 30, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don’t have time to read all the comments now, but wanted say thanks Wedge. I have no doubt he sincerely did everything he knew how to help the team be better, even if we disagree with a lot of his decisions. 2007 was pretty damn spectacular, and probably includes some of my fondest memories of any team I’ve ever followed.
Glad it’s happened because it’s pretty clear it needed to. I really wish he didn’t have to be fired because the team was living up to all the expectations we have for it.
Let’s go Tribe.
Il faut d'abord durer.
by CU Adam on Sep 30, 2009 2:12 PM EDT reply actions 5 recs
Wedge – “I was here in the beginning, I understand really rebuilding, starting from scratch. This is not that situation here in Cleveland. You need to understand that, fans need to understand that. You have a solid organization, a solid minor league system. You have a process that works, here in this market. So they’re going to be fine. You have to work off the market, the economy, what you’re able to do here. you have some young, talented baseball players that are learning every day.”
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
Wow.
I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.
by Gradyforpresident on Sep 30, 2009 2:29 PM EDT reply actions
Wedge: We have to play the games one at a time.
Wedge: I just want to help the big league club.
O’Dowd:Get Wedge on the phone for an interview.
Huntington:Get Wedge on the line before O’Dowd beats us to it.
BP:They finally saw through that jadrools scam.
2 years and that was all you could come up with?
by APV on Sep 30, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The 1930’s called and wants its movie quote back
by Roger Dorn on Sep 30, 2009 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You mean to get rid of Wedge all we had to do was click our heels together three times and say “There’s no place like Jacobs Field circa 1997?”
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 30, 2009 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Saw Grady on pre-game show, he looks like his dog just died…. He mentioned several times that the Wedge firing is largely the players faults because they underperformed the last several years….
Tribe in 2010!! Maybe.
by indiansfan20062000 on Sep 30, 2009 3:40 PM EDT reply actions
That’s the pretty standard player’s line, almost out of the Crash Davis major league cliche script book.
"But people are stupid, and their memories are short." - FredOx
by woodsmeister on Sep 30, 2009 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Tony Lastoria on his message board:
"No Farrell.
Got confirmation from a third party….but he is out of consideration. Lovullo also will not be the manager….he may be interviewed, but he won’t be the guy.
So, where does this leave us? Clint Hurdle?"
Really hoping it’s somebody from the Mariners’ organization.
by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Mostly joking. We do well with guys we get from Seattle.
by fleerdon on Sep 30, 2009 6:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Bavasi’s with the Reds now. All signs point to Brook Jacoby.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 30, 2009 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
My thoughts exactly
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Really? The Indians hire Clint Hurdle to be the manager, and you two will no longer be Indians fans from that moment on?
No, I don’t think he meant it like that. I think he meant it figuratively.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Figuratively it means something along the lines of “spent”
In terms of frustration. But not really any different in reality. Just the same guy but a little more skeptical of Shapiro. Does anything anyone posts mean anything?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Does anything anyone posts mean anything?
Yes, as a rule, things that people post here mean something. Often, they actually mean what the words comprising the post mean.
by Jay on Sep 30, 2009 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
“Often, they actually mean what the words comprising the post mean.”
Often, but not always. I see you are not such a fundamentalist afterall.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions
We sort of have an anti-stupidity bent here. Many are jolted by it initially, not because they are stupid, but because they’re unaccustomed to being on a web forum that has standards of any kind.
Anyway, everyone is encouraged not to post stupid things just to have something to say. That whole Mazzone-as-manager thread from before? Already deleted. People who come here should leave smarter and more knowledgable, not filled with nonsense.
You’re still sour about the mazzone thing? Let it go already. I admitted I was mistaken, so I apologize for that. You were hostile enough about that; you don’t need to keep harping on it. What exactly about “one two seven” ’s and my comment here makes you so perturbed that you dig up the mazzone issue to rant and rave about? Get over yourself.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Sep 30, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions
You really don’t want to be here long, do you? There is a somewhat loose and largely unspoken code of conduct here that dictates what is accepted on this site. If you don’t like, go back over to cleveland.com. Nobody is forcing you to stay here and wage a losing battle against how things are here; there are plenty of places on the web where you can type whatever you want without anyone making a logical counterpoint. Perhaps you’d feel more comfortable at one of them.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
Cleveland.com?
I’m not telling anyone how to run their site. Maybe so I can understand better, can you tell me what I did in this thread that is against the rules of the site? Did “one two seven” also break the rules, or just I did?
I take no issue with “logical counterpoints” nor do I have anything against this site. Perhaps you are reading too much into my post?
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 1, 2009 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
At this point, it’s a small thing that has been belabored. one two seven posted something, you strongly agreed, I pointed out that what was posted was stupid and meaningless. You wouldn’t actually be “done,” and he/you had failed to state anything else. You protested a bit, so I simply reminded you that the goal here is not to post things just for the sake of posting them; don’t post stupid things. That remains the simple prescription here.
by Jay on Oct 1, 2009 2:19 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh, boy. Listen, we are not going to debate this. You don’t get to decide what the proper conduct is; the moderators do that. I’m one of them, and the other three will back me up. Neither my conduct nor yours are up for discussion.
It’s easy to fit in here with one simple guideline: Don’t post stupid things.
Well I’ll try not to. I understand how the Mazzone thing was a stupid comment on my part, which I’ve already admitted several times. So can we let that go now? As I said, your rebuke was enough, and I realized my error. I fail to see what is so offensive about my other posts.
In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).
by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 1, 2009 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m not offended, again, just pointing out that there is a standard here. You already sound smarter than when you first got here, so it must be working.
by Jay on Oct 1, 2009 2:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I guess my point is that it doesn’t make sense for us to be eliminating candidates at this point in time.
I’m just assuming Tony will be as accurate in his Who Will be the Manager prediction as his Who is On His Way to Cleveland predictions.
Yeah, I’ll call BS on this one.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 30, 2009 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions
HIRE SAL FASANO.
Tribe in 2010!! Maybe.
by indiansfan20062000 on Sep 30, 2009 7:56 PM EDT reply actions
I still like Andrew’s old suggestion of hiring Jack McKeon. If not that guy, hire someone none of us have heard of.
Fin-frackin-ly. Now I don’t have to make any blustery attempts at saying (lying) that I won’t pay attention to the team next year because I’m just fed up with Wedge. Its good that they’ll let him finish out with his losing record as a Tribe manager (something I take enormous satisfaction in – although it kills me at the same time that the Tribe was a losing team overall these past few years).
I’m just ready to turn the page and move onto something positive in the next few years. I’m now getting excited about the new manager working with the kids. Optimism reins.
I just wanted to believe.
+1!
Personally, I’m a little surprised that Wedge’s overall record is as close to .500 as it is – certainly, 2005 and 2007 helped, plus the 80-82 and 81-81 seasons, but seeing the record in print, I’m surprised he was less than 10 games under .500.
Still, I think it was time for a change; the “kids” that Wedge worked with in the Minors are mostly gone, and we’re essentially starting from scratch, at least in terms of constructing a new core, so getting a new manager in here now while the new “kids” are establishing themselves is probably a better time than perhaps waiting until after Wedge’s contract expires after the 2010 season.
I wish Wedge well – he did do some good things while he was here, but it’s time to move on.
The "cream of the crop" doesn't always rise to the top.
Man, yesterday was a great day for me. Wedge gets fired and my nephew was born!
by Joe. on Oct 1, 2009 12:25 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, I’m in the godfather running apparently. Need to make sure this kid doesn’t get brought up a Yankee fan.
Congrats, Joe — I remember my friends’ first kids, and my brothers’ first kids. Being an uncle is a big deal, especially if you’re the kind of guy who thinks it’s a big deal.
by Jay on Oct 1, 2009 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Me three (and two on the not-Catholic part)! I have to say, being a godfather (and Uncle) is a great thing. It kinda puts you at ease that you won’t completely muck it up when you decide you’re ready for kids.
Congrats Joe.
I just wanted to believe.
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