Sizemore being shut down early.
Grady is not in tonight's lineup, Brantley is leading off and playing center, Lonnie Soloff will be speaking to the media at 4:30.
over 2 years ago
Toxicadam
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From a developmental point of view, this almost guarantees LaPorta and Brantley regular AB’s for the next few weeks, and that makes me happy.
I understand a drive to compete and not wanting to disappoint your teammates, but the Indians aren’t contending and frankly, shutting Grady down is a long time coming.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
I understand a drive to compete and not wanting to disappoint your teammates, but the Indians aren’t contending and frankly, shutting Grady down is a long time coming.
I agree, this situation could have been handled better weeks or even months ago.
:/
Clone Grady 25 times and we will win the World Serious in 2040
by biscuitsandgrady on Sep 4, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions
folks, he’s not having tommy john surgery. i can’t believe how passionate people have been about this.
Our franchise player was playing with an existing injury that requires surgery during a pointless set of games. I think our collective reaction has been completely in line.
I agree, watching Grady degrade during this season was disgusting. Of all players for the management to ‘ignore’ healthwise, they chose to play Grady despite the pain and potential for a more serious injury. Didn’t they learn their lesson with Travis?
Clone Grady 25 times and we will win the World Serious in 2040
by biscuitsandgrady on Sep 4, 2009 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Read afh’s reply.
He was thoroughly checked out on TWO seperate occasions (that was reported to us). They determined he was not going to do any more harm to himself and HE (and I am assuming his agent) WANTED TO PLAY. End of story.
No one is in the wrong here. Maybe this explains why the Indians are secretive about injuries. They don’t want armchair doctors second guessing them all the time.
If Grady were shut down early and had surgery in August or July, then he could still have an offseason to work on getting back to strength.
The Indians were pretty clearly non-contenders by July (a historically amazing second half not withstanding) and they had the minor-league personnel ready to come up and play.
You’re not going to win, you let LaPorta have his 2-3 months 300-400 PA, and you have Grady back at full strength for 2010.
Even if Grady doesn’t hurt himself anymore this season, I see it as putting next season in jeopardy.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
First off, I don’t see anything indicating he’s going to have an extended rehab.
Secondly, it’s pretty easy to argue that the last two months, in which he faced major league pitching and pounded it, were better preparation for next season then whatever wind sprints he was going to run in December and now can’t would’ve been.
Grady isn’t a 22 year old looking to break into the league. Where every few months of development is crucial. He’s an established baseball player, and 4-8 weeks of non-activity is going to have zero effect on his 2010 ability.
Who’s to say Grady doesn’t already do this in the off-season (take a few months off)? Do we know his off-season routine?
We don’t know his off-season routine. And it would be logical to assume he takes some time off following 162 games of baseball. But it would also be foolish to assume he does nothing to prepare himself for the upcoming year, be it baseball activities or weights or running.
B.J. Upton had surgery this last offseason (a more serious surgery than the one Grady will have) and his production has slumped dramatically. How much of that can be attributed to the injury might be debatable, but to say an offseason of (relative) inactivity played no role in his diminished production would be naive.
Even on this website there has been speculation as to Hafner’s production and whether a regular offseason to regain some strength might be a big benefit for him, considering the tumult of his previous two.
In Grady’s case the prognosis is much more fair. If I understand correctly he is undergoing an arthoscopic surgery (someone correct me if I’m wrong). I’m no doctor, but I’m familiar enough with those kind of procedures to know that the rehabilitation won’t kill his offseason. But I would hate to see a scenario where Grady recovers completely but comes out next year with the physique of a twelve-year old halo champion because his offseason workouts leading up to spring training were cut short.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 4:41 PM EDT up reply actions
But I would hate to see a scenario where Grady recovers completely but comes out next year with the physique of a twelve-year old halo champion because his offseason workouts leading up to spring training were cut short.
seriously. this is just batcrap insane. insane.
It’s an exaggeration. Translated: if he comes back and he’s strength to the point that it affects his performance.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
If I poked holes in your elbow and looked ground down some bone spurs or whatever Grady is having done, and then asked you to go do a full workout the next day do you think you could do it? No. In a week? Most likely no. Several weeks? Sure. But in the meantime you’ve been inactive. It might not take long for you to get back to speed, but initially you’re at a competitive disadvantage as an athlete.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
But in the meantime you’ve been inactive. It might not take long for you to get back to speed, but initially you’re at a competitive disadvantage as an athlete.
dude, i’m sorry, this is insane.
Can you at least tell me exactly how this is insane?
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions
to envision this scenario where grady deflates like a balloon because with any amount of inactivity and a week or a month here or there has a such gigantic impact his ability to rebuild his body by next april.
He won’t deflate like a baloon. I’m positive of that. But do you honestly think taking time off won’t impact his performance in some way?
Baseball is unique to American sports because unlike basketball you don’t have to be 7’ tall. Unlike football you don’t have to run a 4.30 forty at 230 pounds. And unlike Hockey you don’t have to be white. But you still have to possess a modicum of physical ability along with your baseball talents. Baseball talent is the ability to coordinate your body to make it throw 95 mph. It’s the ability to hit a ball pitched at 95 mph. Some guys are loaded with baseball talent. They could just play every day, probably don’t have to work out, and they could succeed at a high level.
But most guys are a combination. They have to work hard to get their bodies in shape so that the baseball talent expresses itself in the most desirable way. This is a process that doesn’t stop during the season. It might get toned down, it might not be as important, but guys still work out during the season. They still hit the weights, they still run. Over the course of six or seven months of baseball your body would change dramatically if you didn’t continue to keep your body in shape. This process is also most definitely not halted for the advent of the offseason.
Grady probably won’t lose his baseball talent. He’ll still be able to throw. He’ll still be able to hit. But without the ability to work out, to prepare himself physically he might not be able to throw as hard. He might not be able to swing his bat as quickly. And this is reflected in his performance.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
For what it’s worth, the crux of my original argument wasn’t the risks posed to Grady or the team, but that shutting Grady down will put him in a better position to succeed next year and more importantly, it gives LaPorta and others a chance to play now, in a stress-free environment as they get their feet wet.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
We don’t really know what they plan on cleaning up. Which is why no one should have too strong an opinion about this either way.
by supermarioelia on Sep 4, 2009 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
we know the indians doctors aren’t too worried. i’m going with that rather than assume they’re lying.
Seriously, why the rampant paranoia here? Only two of us are anything resembling medical doctors and those two haven’t seen Grady in person (that I know). Let’s just assume this isn’t the biggest cover-up since Watergate.
I don’t think there was ever a cover up. I was simply debating the merits of having the surgery earlier. I imagine the Indians physicians, FO, and Grady and his agent have all weighed in on the subject, but I didn’t see any clear advantages to having him on the field for two months in the midst of a losing season. It just seemed like it was prolonging the inevitable.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t see any clear advantages to having him on the field for two months in the midst of a losing season.
I don’t mean to be rude, I really don’t, but you aren’t one of Grady’s doctors or Grady himself. That is why it is absurd to sit here and deign to act as if you/we have even one tenth of the information needed to so much as speculate on this.
I agree with you on the lack of information, but it’s not like Grady was having a great year or anything. This has been his worst year as a regular. His numbers are awful.
You’re absolutely right. I was just surprised that there were so many people unwilling to speculate considering a good portion of the comments on this website ARE speculation about one subject or another.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 5, 2009 8:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I mean, I hope you guys are right. I’m counting on the Indians’ medical staff to have considered everything we’re saying here. Hell, I hope after the surgery they tell Grady “we’ve equipped your arm with a rocket launcher so now you don’t have to throw like Jhonny Damon. And you know that sonar that the dolphins use? We put that in too. You don’t have to feel for the wall anymore. And oh yeah, you can also start working out as soon as you’d like.” I hope everything goes smoothly and he’s ready for next season. Grady is the closest thing to consistent (-ly good) that this team has, and I’d hate to have his 25 HR, 80 BB, and good to great defense that are already penciled into next year’s lineup be anything other than that.
Unless of course the difference is an improvement.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Stop being a worrywart. We can all criticize things in March, but enjoy the winter in peace. I agree with what was said elsewhere in the thread, and am going with the working theory that getting Grady back into a good rhythm prior to surgery will speed up the transition back to baseball after the surgery.
by supermarioelia on Sep 4, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions
We can all criticize things in March
if there’s a problem. i’ll be happy to listen to all the i-told-ya-so-we-shoulda-shut-him-down-last-may rants then.
brick, who are you arguing with here? are we both telling each other to relax?
by supermarioelia on Sep 4, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
i’m not arguing here. i’m plucking out a good point. i wanted to say a ways back. “how bout we worry about this when he shows up next spring with setbacks?”
As an aside, I really do hate sports medicine. Odd, considering my life ambition was once to become an orthopedic surgeon. But too many shades of grey for me…as we’ve even seen on LGT, anything involving soft tissue injuries can be argued until the cows come home, and there’s little evidence to really back anyone up.
by supermarioelia on Sep 4, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Who here is a doctor?
The dozens of doctors that the Indians are in regular contact with regarding the health of their players, that’s who. Mark Shapiro is not an idiot and neither is Soloff or any of the other physicians involved. Mario, Chuck, whoever can armchair this all they want but at the end of the day the parsimonious thing to do is to assume that the doctors, who take oaths about this kind of stuff, are not putting anybody in unnecessary danger.
This, players playing through injury because there’s little chance of further damage, happens all the time in sports of all kinds. It is so routine as to be ignorable.
If you want to get into all this crackpot conspiracy stuff about the medical staff being inept, whatever. Enjoy being a conspiracy theorist, I guess.
by afh4 on Sep 4, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
In Three Nights in August, Buzz Bissinger related how Tony LaRussa knowingly played Albert Pujols in games when LaRussa’s medical staff told him that if Pujols threw the ball, it could end his career. It is not absurd to consider in this situation, with its different circumstances, that someone was being monumentally stupid, and that has now been corrected.
This is what we’re going off? A Buzz Bissinger anecdote?
Look, this isn’t really about you, Volt, but there is a movement on this site over the last six months to constantly act as if we, who have literally zero information or expertise, have something to add to discussions of player’s health. Whether it be the endless and pointless speculation over Hafner’s shoulder and what was or was not revealed, or the even more pointless speculation over whether or not the Indians read Knapp’s MRI (Seriously? Seriously?) or this Grady situation, there has been a movement among some posters that we know better than the medical staff who is acting recklessly or, worse, negligently.
I think the whole line of reasoning is ridiculous. Not only are they universally lauded as a good baseball medical staff, they are also highly qualified professionals who have access to rheems of information that we not can’t access but also couldn’t understand. In short, I think any time fans start getting involved in player’s health issues, it accomplishes nothing.
Not only do we have nothing to offer but we also are impugning the professional reputations of men who are literally at the top of their professions (sports medicine) in ways that we will probably never be. It’s not fair or right or utile to question the decisions made by a medical doctor unless you’re trained to do exactly that and you have the information in front of you to do so.
And if you’re point is that Shapiro and Co were told to shut Sizemore down by the doctors and refused to then I don’t know where to go with that. There’s nothing in Shapiro’s background or philosophy that indicates that might even remotely be the case.
by afh4 on Sep 4, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 8 recs
I’m reccing solely on your vocabulary. I also agree with you.
utile: useful
that’s such a small, easy to use word, and pretty much an antonym of futile.
parsimonious: frugal or stingy.
I can’t believe I’ve never heard of or used those words before. I’m even college educated. Props to afh4!
Thanks. However, I’m using the science definition of ‘parsimonious’ here, which is sort of Occam’s Razor. Parsimonious means “the simplest solution”, or at least the one containing the fewest steps in the context of most science.
It might also help if I didn’t have so many extra words in everything I write in the comments here from half started sentences abandoned:
that we not can’t access
Good one.
This is Victor's home. Victor Jose, you too.
by westbrook on Sep 4, 2009 6:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oops, somehow I missed the stack of paper above me.
by Chemo on Sep 6, 2009 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lots of this. thank you, andrew.
coincidentally, at the exact time i finished reading this, i got a shaving of pepper from lunch dislodged from between my teeth. between the two, i feel like a new man.
by Brick. on Sep 4, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fine points. I’ll add though that I’ve steered clear of this Grady business for the most part because literally the only info we have is that there’s something wrong with the elbow and he needs a scope. With only that info, not much we can say either way.
by supermarioelia on Sep 4, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
they universally lauded as a good baseball medical staff
Not arguing this, just wondering where the evidence is for it, beyond “testimonials from others in the field”. Even going back and reading BP health reports going back to 2007, it reads now as a lot of rhetoric without much substance to me.
by supermarioelia on Sep 4, 2009 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, seems to me a lot of it is spillover from the 2-3 consecutive years we went without an arm injury to any member of the rotation. Seems like a long time ago. Certainly their reputation isn’t as sterling now as it was then, whatever you think of their tendency toward blind, LaRussian recklessness.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 4, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m certainly not arguing that they are prone to blind, LaRussian recklessness. But, similar to Jay’s argument to Shapiro that it is possible Wedge is at fault for the play of the team, I argue that it is possible the Indians staff can make a significant mistake. Whether or not we have the evidence to determine if that has occurred, and if so in what situation, is an entirely different matter.
How about this evidence of the medical staff being wrong?
From 10/07/08.
“In talking through things with Lonnie,” Shapiro said, “there’s nothing that could happen this offseason that wouldn’t have him (Hafner) at 100 percent by Spring Training.”
http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20081007&content_id=3602292&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle
Did something in fact happen during that offseason, which caused Hafner to be less than 100% by spring training?
by Jay on Sep 7, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow Andrew, I musta missed a whole bunch of posts here. I don’t recall any conspiracy theories being put forward – unless saying that the Indians FO is secretive is considered a "conspiracy".
I’ve got a coupla friends who happen to be both Indians fans and doctors. One’s and oncologist, one’s an ID specialist and one’s a thoracic surgeon. We all are scratching our heads wondering why Grady’s surgery is being done now instead of in July. Part of the wonder stems from our collective baseball fandom and another from our collective understanding of some basic medical tenets. The first of which is that there is no such thing as a "little" procedure. Surgery is the last tool in the medical black bag. Choosing surgery over all available non-invasive options is serious business, since the risk involving any surgery – and there is serious risk any time you cut some one with a scalpel – is non-trivial. We have all seen serious complications involving the most banal procedures. As an example that all LGTers are familiar with – it appears that Adam Miller’s medical troubles can be traced back to the decision to suture his blister fistula. Pretty mundane stuff – except for the consequences that is. In short surgery is never, ever to be taken lightly and when surgery is the only option left, it’s serious business. The second tenet is: if an activity caused the injury, stop the activity. You don’t need a consult from a sports medicine specialist to figure that one out. Finally: always plan for the unexpected. Pretty common sensical stuff really. But here’s another tenet for you: medicine is really a common sensical business. Despite all of the arcane Latin phrases and high tech equipment, and the magical trappings, and the public’s need to believe that there’s a lot of space age stuff going on, the best docs are the one’s with the most acute common sense. It’s still a people based profession.
But then again, patients live in the real world. I delayed my own procedure – one with a much higher risk than Grady’s and more time sensitive – due to real world considerations. So I get it. But this is still my view: nothing was gained by delaying Grady’s operation and the delay entailed unnecessary added risk. No conspiracy theory here, just a little wonderment is all.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Sep 5, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
And after months of being at odds, we’re back in the same boat. Great to have ya back Chuck.
by supermarioelia on Sep 6, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
It’s gonna be weird being the only physician on LGT. I’m actually going to have to display some accountability with my comments.
by supermarioelia on Sep 4, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I study biomechanics
/shrinks down in his seat
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions
My education is useless here. But at least that doesn’t require any additional accountability.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
I don’t feel accountable for Chris O’Leary and Driveline Mechanics, if that’s what you’re getting at… I just don’t wish to be compared to them in any way.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 4, 2009 6:57 PM EDT up reply actions
RT: @tribeinsider: Sizemore shutdown and will have elbow surgery next week. Surgery now means unrestricted in off season 2010 preparation workouts.
What do they mean by unrestricted in off season ?
Clone Grady 25 times and we will win the World Serious in 2040
by biscuitsandgrady on Sep 4, 2009 4:45 PM EDT reply actions
I think they mean if he had surgery later, some of his off-season workouts would be limited.. Now, they won’t be.
Because I know. Lonnie Soloff is a pseudonym, you know.
by FredOx on Sep 4, 2009 10:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
HE’S NOT EVEN A REAL DOCTOR!
The guy wears shorts to work for christ’s sake.
by supermarioelia on Sep 4, 2009 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s having two surgeries, not one. The elbow, followed a week later by some repair work to his groin/abdomen. Neither surgery is supposed to be a big deal.
the second one is to extract some of his mojo for mass distribution.
by Brick. on Sep 4, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
The injury that kept him out of the WBC never healed. Good thing we’re not arguing about the reliability and openness of the Indians on player injuries.
Explains the sub par numbers on the paths. Sub par for him, I should say.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
Question I’ve always had that some of the lawyer-types can address….where does a player’s privacy rights end with respect to his medical information being disseminated? Because I’m fairly certain Beltre would’ve preferred to keep his testicle trauma quiet if possible.
I’d bet that there is some kind of limited HIPAA release that goes into the CBA or individual contracts, allowing team medical staff to release general information in exchange for treatment.
Just a guess, but there has to be something because otherwise every team official that ever spoke about a medical condition would be in serious trouble.
Il faut d'abord durer.
I’m not a lawyer, but have some familiarity with HIPAA. It all depends upon what sort of release Beltre signed concerning dissemination of his health information.
by MTF on Sep 4, 2009 5:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought the latest CBA had language that meant we’d never get medical information, even the injured area, ever, without the player’s explicit consent. Obviously that wasn’t the case.
My guess is that every team has their players sign a consent form on the first day of spring training, and that that’s sufficient consent for the CBA.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 4, 2009 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, the CBA probably works in the other direction. It’s HIPAA that absolutely restricts the release of medical information.
by Jay on Sep 5, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions
the HIPAA “privacy rule” restrains disclosure of protected health information by “covered entities,” i.e. health plans and insurance providers, and not by employers. the notion is to keep your employee health plan from telling your employer that you’re sick (e.g. that you have HIV), not to keep your employer from telling people. most health plans contain a waiver of protections under the privacy rule as a condition of service, and in any event, the federal government doesn’t enforce the rule, so it doesn’t really exist anyway, waiver or not.
additionally, Article XIII of the CBA grants clubs and the Commissioner’s office explicit permission to disclose information re player injuries and medical treatment received by players from club medical staff or medical providers retained by the club.
Right. You basically just fleshed out what I said.
by Jay on Sep 5, 2009 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
To the crazies, you are among the insane.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
I think you just made a straw-man argument; Jay didn’t say word one about a conspiracy just then.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
the rampant paranoia
if you want to get into all this crackpot conspiracy stuff about the medical staff being inept, whatever
Jay didn’t say anything, but there was a lot of talk about it up-thread
I don’t think anyone was saying that Grady had some undisclosed injury or that the medical staff were risking Grady’s health. It was all about the timing and what could possibly be gained by leaving him in the lineup for two months after he was diagnosed with an injury that he would eventually need surgery on in the midst of a losing season.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 5, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Right. It turns out he did. But no one was speculating that earlier.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
by gorilla_baller on Sep 5, 2009 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
For what it’s worth, Sizemore, himself, admits that having the surgeries now (as opposed to finishing the season and then getting them) is expressly to avoid coming into training camp at anything less than 100%.
Sizemore added that if he was shut down, it would be to make sure he was recovering in time for next season.
“I don’t want to come into spring training a few steps behind,” he said.
I don’t know how real the possibility was, but it was at least a concern for Grady.
My uncle says you've got a screw loose.
Your uncle molests collies.
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