... I certainly think the concern that a guy playing through those injuries could be opening himself up to further damage or a longer rehab by playing every day is a valid one.
But I also think that this issue wouldn't be getting nearly as much attention if Sizemore wasn't the one involved. Kelly Shoppach, for instance, played last season with a bum knee that required arthroscopic surgery at season's end, and no one paid it any mind. Of more precise comparison is Travis Hafner's elbow issue that hampered him throughout the 2004 season. Pronk had surgery at season's end to remove bone spurs and loose bodies from the elbow joint. He recovered in plenty of time to post one of his finest seasons in 2005.
My point is that players gut it out through pain all the time -- often unbeknownst to us -- and perhaps a professional team of doctors and trainers has a better feel for this kind of thing than the rest of us do.
If anything, fans' concerns should be pointed toward Sizemore, who waited more than two months to tell the training staff he was dealing with the elbow issue."
over 2 years ago
Jay
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I appreciate the old-school mentality, but too often playing through an injury is going to be bad for the team. There’s a fine line between being admirable because being out on the field is more important to you than anything else, and being selfish because being out on the field is more important to you than anything else.
Steel Nick
I want to come back and add that in this case I trust the medical evaluation that somehow Grady’s injury couldn’t get worse and it was okay for him to play through it. My problem is the part where Grady A) wasn’t being forthcoming with the injury and B) the future implication that he might assume ignoring the pain is what’s for the best.
Steel Nick
If Grady would have put up career numbers while playing with this elbow, he would have been lauded as being tough as nails and gritty. So now that he struggled a bit, the FO (and medical staff) is seen as careless and sloppy.
He actually has put up pretty great numbers with the injury. He put up lousy numbers before sitting out for a while.
by Jay on Sep 7, 2009 1:54 AM EDT up reply actions
The bigger issue, as I said in the comments of AC’s blog, is that the Tribe admitted that Grady would need surgery way back on July 1st, and they conceded the season less than a month later. So why has he been playing since then?
I can’t fault them for not doing anything about a situation they knew nothing about, but once all the information was in, they should have acted.
Because I’m preparing for Grady to be like Hafner this year.
-Kyle
Because I’m preparing for Grady to be like Hafner this year.
If Grady’s number post-DL stint don’t assuage your fears enough, I really don’t know what to say. It’s not like Hafner’s condition where the seem to have virtually no idea the cause.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
but once all the information was in, they should have acted.
It was, and they did. What you’re missing is the part where they have more access to this information.
Steel Nick
They acted much later. They actually released the information to the public on July 1st. It took them over two months to finally shut him down.
-Kyle
What I’m telling you is that with the information they had in front of them they felt completely at ease with letting him play for two months. This is kind of Andrew’s point of, are you a doctor? A medical expert? Have you been looking at Sizemore’s medical information?
Steel Nick
Isn’t it relevant that they shut him down on precisely a timetable that will allow him to not miss his offseason workouts?
So, they let him play until it would’ve hurt his offseason. Excepting Chuck’s “surgery is a diceroll” point, isn’t that exactly what we should want? Maximize time readjusting to majors then get a full offseason in?
This is an excellent point.
The once and future
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Sep 8, 2009 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, but the reason I don’t subscribe to the larger view is that I think Chuck’s point overwhelms this one.
I trust the huge staff of practicing doctors with years of experience a whole lot more than I trust Chuck, not a practicing doctor, or Chuck’s friends who are doctors, or anyone else who hasn’t actually seen any test results.
I think that Mario and I are of one mind on this. The chances that Sizemore has some debilitating surgical consequence is small – very small. But it ain’t zero. You don’t hafta be Chairman of the Orthopaedic Department at McGill to know that.
Hopefully, I’ll never get a chance to tell you “I told you so”. But never fear, if I get the chance Andrew, you’re gonna hear it.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Is there any point to ‘claiming’ this tiny percentage as special knowledge? The ability to say I told you so if there’s a debilitating surgical consequence?
Ok, I’m calling it: we’re going to have injuries next seasons and it’s going to be the trainer’s fault because why not. And when there are, I’m going to tell you all that I knew there would be injuries and that they may have been caused by the training staff.
To be less of a jerk, no one is saying that it’s impossible that anything will go wrong; of course not. There’s always a chance that things go wrong. But, as you said yourself, it’s such a low chance that the torch and pitchfork crew who want Soloff’s head for letting him play two months is out of line.
Is it worth Solof’s head? No. But then again I’m nonplussed about Solof. Here’s another of my many opinions. There’s probably little if any difference between the Indians medical staff and any other team in Major League baseball.
Here’s what I’m saying: the goal next year is to win the WS. That’s the goal. In order to do that, we must have as many of our players available for as much of the season as possible. Pretty simple. Grady has the surgery. Something unforseen happens delaying the onset of his re-hab until early Spring – unlikely, but possible – and he isn’t the Grady we all know and love until June. We finish one game out. Was it worth the two extra months of Grady in ‘09? No, I don’t think so.
All of this is unlikely. It also is avoidable. I was – not so much any more – excited about competing for a championship next year and wanted to ensure fielding our best team starting Opening Day. And just like Grady’s surgery date, I don’t think that it really matters.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Sep 10, 2009 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Grady is supposed to be ready after surgery for the beginning of offseason workouts in November. Hafner didn’t even start swinging in the cages until the very beginning of spring training. The two situations are not remotely the same.
But the point you’re missing is that Grady is, yes, “supposed to” be ready for his regular offseason workouts. Even if this didn’t work out and he has to wait another month, it’s still December. Hell, if he has to wait TWO months it is still only January! This isn’t Tommy John we’re talking about here. And if you want to compare this to anything, it is Victor’s elbow cleanup mid season (which was also pushed too far), not Hafner’s “we’re lacking medical explanation” situation. In case you’re wondering, Victor returned to the Indians roster a month and a half after his scope. Basically the same operation performed by the same doctor.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
Basically the same operation performed by the same doctor.
This is of little comfort. No two patients are alike, just as no two injuries are alike. Similar, but not matching.
I’ll bet the guy who sutured Miller’s fistula has done that dozens of times and this was, most probably, the first time there was any serious consequence.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I also bet that the guy suturing Miller’s fistula does that very regularly on men who throw a baseball in the upper 90’s. I’ll stand by my point. If you want to knock a hole in it like that, you can knock a hole in anything.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
In fact, it’s unlikely that the doc who did this procedure rarely sutures finger fistulas since that’s a relatively rare occurance.But suturing fistulas in general is more common.
Here’s the thing: I’m sure that the surgeon told Miller – and the Indians Med Staff – that there was little probability of complication. He was wrong.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I don’t these guys have the foggiest clue how often docs give a firm opinion when they have no business giving any sense of certainty in what they tell patients. And I’d say orthopods are maybe the worst for this.
by supermarioelia on Sep 10, 2009 10:28 PM EDT up reply actions
My sister’s a DPT. One of her favorite games is figuring out what’s actually wrong with people whose orthopods told them they had tendonitis.
by fleerdon on Sep 11, 2009 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Don’t try to confuse the issue by bringing facts into it.
It’s clear that Grady was struggling. Can’t you understand that? It’s clear.
by Jay on Sep 7, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
He looked lost at the plate and tried to pull the ball too much. Can your newfangled stats track that?
No need. I just assume that everyone is pulling the ball too much, including MVP candidates, bullpen coaches and ball boys.
by Jay on Sep 7, 2009 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
He’s pulling the ball too much.
I'm not really into Song of Hiawatha.
by sarcasmdave on Sep 8, 2009 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What difference does that make? Even with his numbers, they said he’d need surgery. Sure, let him put up good numbers with an elbow that needs surgery during meaningless games — I’m more concerned about the long term effects. When he’s out for long stretches of time next year or the year after, I’ll be sure to think about his numbers from August of this season for comfort.
-Kyle
When he’s out for long stretches of time next year or the year after
I will make an avatar bet with you.
Steel Nick
It doesn’t matter if that even happens. This exactly the point Tyler keeps combatting with the pitching mechanics breakdowns. If you just predict injury for professional athletes, you’re already using a pair of loaded dice.
Yea, I think this is a very good point. To add to that, if the surgery does not help Grady fully recover and he doesn’t return to Grady of old…..how the hell does that change if he had the surgery two months ago? The timing of the surgery does not make it more likely to be successful.
You’re right. If you buy into my tenet that next year’s major league season is meaningless, then you’re right – what difference does it make?
Originally I thought that we might have a shot at the play-offs next year. After watching the “pitching” staff get shelled for the last few games, I’ve re-calibrated. Suppose Grady does have some un-foreseen issues post-op and needs additional re-hab time, so what? Now he’s in CF startin in’ June instead of April and we finish 34 games out instead of 26. Nothing lost really, we should still be able to unload him for some cheap prospects at the trade DL.
Roger, you’ve convinced me. There really is no impact, either potential or real, in delaying Grady’s Sx.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
After watching the "pitching" staff get shelled for the last few games, I’ve re-calibrated.
Because all championship teams never ever have poor performances. Like, never.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
So you wanna avatar bet on how far out the Indians finish next year?
I’m saying 20 games minimum.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I wouldn’t place a bet on how bad my team was going to be even if I knew the outcome. The fact that you would startles me.
Here Lies the Victor Martinez Era:
Sept. 10, 2002 - July 31, 2009
See, you don’t have the benefit of my long experience watching bad to awful Indians baseball. We usta bet on this all the time. The over/under on what date we’d be mathematically eliminated, how many back etc. That – and how many times we’d beat the Yankees – was one of the few things that kept an otherwise dismal season interesting. You’ll learn.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Interesting.
Let’s assume the Indians stay where they are now: 15 games back. Will they be this bad next year, and will one of the Twins (more advanced pitching, same hitting?), White Sox (sans most of the old guys), and Tigers (One year older, but that’s what we said last year) be that much better?
If the line is 19.5, I’m tempted to take the under.
Steel Nick
We’ll be without Lee, Martinez, DeRosa, Bentancourt, Pavano and Garko for the whole season. I know we’ve – lately – been doin’ better without them. I don’t see this trend continuing next year. Again: 20 games back – minimum.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
The Indians have allowed more runs than all but two teams in MLB (Nats and O’s). They have walked more batters than anyone in the AL. This isn’t a short-term poor performance. It’s a monumental collapse. And the faint promises of 2010—Fausto returns and immediate help is at hand from CC and Masterson—have been revealed as folly.
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