Let's Go Tribe!: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: College Football Preseason Top 25 Rankings

Indians of the Decade: CC

CC Sabathia, Cleveland Indian.

CC Sabathia, Cleveland Indian.

The is the third entry in a series on the Indians of 2000-2009. The introductory entry can be read here, and Andrew's outstanding essay on Victor and Grady can be read here.

Just as a wildebeest will inevitably be eaten by a lion, or a hyena, or a leopard, or a cheetah, it is an almost incontrovertible rule of the baseball food chain that great players today are destined to be known and remembered as a player for the team they signed a large free agent contract with. Alex Rodriguez, Mariner? Surely you jest. Mark Teixeira, Ranger? Just a prelude to his real career. Manny Ramirez, Indian? Ancient history. The only people who will remember are the fans that watched that player break in, struggle, and finally show those first signs of greatness. And while only memories remain of CC Sabathia, Indian, those memories merit your fondness.

Star-divide

CC Sabathia started the 2001 season a 20-year-old raw specimen, but still good enough to throw 180 innings, and fortunate enough to have a good offense supporting him. But Sabathia's arrival coincided with the last gasp of a dynasty that had begun in 1994, and most of his development at the major-league level would have to come while pitching for bad teams. After the Indians traded Bartolo Colon in June 2002, Sabathia was the ace, but in name only. His arm was still among the best in baseball, but still had to learn to pitch, lessons normally learned by young pitchers in AA or AAA. So Sabathia, despite avoiding the major pitfall of young pitchers - injury - spent several seasons flailing about for his potential.

While he was an All-Star in both 2003 and 2004, Sabathia didn't really become a great pitcher until July 25, 2005. This was his worst start of the season, coming at the end of a string of poor performances. I can't explain why exactly this embarrassing performance in Oakland, his hometown, was the springboard into a great career, but it was after this game that Sabathia seemed to change his approach, take a couple notches off his fastball, and set up hitters in ways he hadn't done before. This approach carried over to 2006, though he missed a month early in the season. In his last start of the season, against Chicago, he shut out the White Sox on four hits, striking out 11. It was a prelude for his Cy Young season, his last full season with the Indians.

2007 was the culmination of the rebuilding process started when Colon was traded, and now the young but talented pitcher who reluctantly took Bartolo's spot at the front of the rotation was now a confident and polished young star. There were no relapses or injuries this season. Sabathia started 34 games, pitched 241.0 innings, struck out 209, and walked just 39. He became the first Indian to win a Cy Young Award in almost 30 years. The Indians made the playoffs for the first time since 2001, and came within a game of the World Series. 

A summit had been reached, but instead of a level high plain, the Indians' summit was a sheer jagged peak. The team collapsed around Sabathia, and now the Indians, just having nurtured him into a star, had to figure out how to get something for him before he left. From the Indians' perspective those years of Sabathia developing into a top pitcher used up more than chronological time; it consumed precious service time, and although they had extended their allotted six seasons of control over him by two years when they signed a pre-free agent Sabathia to an extension, there would be no more extensions now. It was time for Sabathia to move on to bigger things.

Sabathia was unquestionably the pitcher of the Aughts for the Indians, leading the team in innings pitched (1528.2 IP), Games Started (237), Strikeouts (1265), and Complete Games (19). To me, he is also the representative player of the decade, in that he was the only player to bridge the gap between the 2001 and 2007 teams.* He was a starting player in seven full seasons in the decade, something no other player on this list did. Because this list is our list, subject to our whims and fancies in addition to cold statistics, Sabathia's departure, and especially who he eventually departed to, are major emotional hurdles to clear when there's Grady Sizemore, a player with just as much production and still an Indian beckoning at the top of the list. To be honest, if I was posting this a year ago, after Sabathia had just signed with the Evil Empire, I would probably have penalized him a lot more, to the point where I'd give the edge to Sizemore or even to Victor. But time and its companion perspective have done their work, and so all those starts, all those innings, and that fleeting but overwhelming success again have significance enough to place him just ahead of Grady Sizemore as my best Indian of the decade.

*Yes, Kenny Lofton played key roles on both the 2001 and 2007 teams, but he left and came back. CC pitched through those intervening years.

3 recs  |  Comment 59 comments |

Story-email Email Printer Print

More from Let's Go Tribe!

Game 97: Rays 6, Indians 3

Jul 2010 by Ryan - 37 comments

Game 47: Indians 13, Yankees 11

May 2010 by Ryan - 86 comments

"Winning Baseball"

May 2010 by afh4 - 25 comments

Around SB Nation

Monday's Frosty Mug

Aug 2010 from Brew Crew Ball - 61 comments

Yankees lose 9-4

Aug 2010 from Pinstripe Alley - 217 comments

Comments

Display:

Sabathia has a special place for me in that he is the first Indian superstar I can clearly recall every moment, from debut to trade. Yes, I watched the “greats” of the 90s, but details are a bit fuzzy.

Welcome back, Sandy! ATALECG...

by USSChoo on Jan 18, 2010 3:00 AM EST reply actions  

Definitely my pick for Indian of the decade, for so many reasons. Terrific piece.

Also, anticipating that somebody would argue for Kenny Lofton = Ryan’s been doing this a while.

by fleerdon on Jan 18, 2010 3:37 AM EST reply actions  

Ryan, I enjoy your writing. Thanks.

by jds16 on Jan 18, 2010 11:40 AM EST reply actions  

I am recalling this from memory without any statistical proof, but: It wasn’t only that CC took a little off of his fastball, but he began to consistently get his curve ball over for strikes. Opposing hitters could no longer sit on his fastball deep in counts.

by elsandito on Jan 18, 2010 11:50 AM EST reply actions  

Here’s what I remember: CC in the 2007 ALCS.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Jan 18, 2010 1:14 PM EST reply actions  

Ah yes, I remember those crap stains.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 19, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

Cool. I can post again from work!

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 19, 2010 12:44 PM EST up reply actions  

Great that you came back with the phrase “crap stains.”

by fwembt on Jan 19, 2010 11:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Always worth making a splash.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Jan 22, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

The juxtaposition of the the thoughts “crap stains” and “splash” is a real winner for your reentry.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by junkballer on Jan 23, 2010 10:55 AM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately, yes. Same for me. The quantities are different, but the storyline is the same: Mesa, Byner.

by dgcambridge on Jan 19, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

i credit most of CC’s turn around to the arrival of the inexperienced kelly shoppach to be the team’s back-up catcher.

by Brick. on Jan 18, 2010 2:54 PM EST reply actions  

No, it was the time he talked to Curt Schilling.

by afh4 on Jan 18, 2010 2:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Disappointed to find that my article about this is only 14th on Google search for “Sabathia Schilling”.

by Jay on Jan 18, 2010 3:29 PM EST up reply actions  

Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling Sabathia Schilling

Did that help?

Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder

by jerseywahoo on Jan 18, 2010 4:31 PM EST reply actions  

This is a fail on so many levels.

by Jay on Jan 18, 2010 4:53 PM EST up reply actions  

So glad I clicked on his name to figure out what his little icon/avatar thing was. Well done.

Il faut d'abord durer.

by CU Adam on Jan 19, 2010 12:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Well, I guess this one’s going to #1 on the list….

by Ryan on Jan 18, 2010 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

Great piece.

As an M’s fan, blessed with a hyper-abundance of material on Lookout Landing (the guys have really taken it to another level in the last week or two), I absolutely love these types of pieces.

It’s great foreshadowing for the careers of the young stars in an organization that doesn’t operate out of the media-centric east coast. Bravo.

There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

by misterjonez on Jan 18, 2010 9:21 PM EST reply actions  

Actually Jonesie this is kinda of a puff piece. Here’s a much more balanced view of Cazzi Culone.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Jan 19, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

This is a series on players of the decade, and I tried to make this about Sabathia as an Indian, not what he did after he left.

by Ryan on Jan 19, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Actually the way he left is also relevent and it’s what makes him a jackass. In addition – in my mind any way – he’s the Jose Mesa of the aughts. The later is opinion, the former is established fact.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Jan 19, 2010 1:03 PM EST up reply actions  

He left by being traded. True, he was obviously on the way out, but he WAS traded.

Is CC the loyal Indians soldier of the “aughts?” Nope. Did he pitch well in the playoffs? Nope. Was he the best pitcher on the Indians during the decade? Yup. Sorry. Those are the facts, whether we like him or not.

Cliff Lee, by the way, left under PRECISELY the same circumstances. And, he never pitched in the playoffs for the Indians, well or poorly. If CC deserves our/your venom, so does Cliff.

'If I'm not here, 'I'll be somewhere else.'' Andy Marte

by peter m on Jan 19, 2010 8:26 PM EST up reply actions  

C.C. left by making it clear to the club that he would hold out for the very last dollar as a free agent, which he later did, in contrast with the majority of his peers, who re-upped with club-friendly contracts.

Cliff Lee certainly did not leave under those precise, same circumstances. To claim that he did is to be oblivious to context.

by Jay on Jan 19, 2010 9:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I’ll acknowledge that I wasn’t privy to the backroom discussions about Lee’s contract status, so I’ll accept that there must have been differences in the situations. But, I think it’s pretty clear at this point that Lee also wants to get paid (and he has the right to it). My point, admittedly overstated, was that both CC and Lee were highly unlikely to sign with the Indians for anything less than top dollar, so they traded them. I don’t think either guy was the “team-first” guy some people would like to see. They both were typical contemporary baseball guys. As such, I can’t find a real way to be more hostile to CC than to Cliff, to be honest.

'If I'm not here, 'I'll be somewhere else.'' Andy Marte

by peter m on Jan 19, 2010 9:13 PM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think it’s the least bit clear that Lee wanted to hold out. He said on the day he was traded, he was in the midst of working on a deal with the Phillies and expected to be there for the rest of his career. He approached the Indians about an extension prior to the 2009 season — two years prior to reaching free agency, when his leverage would be low — and was rebuffed by the front office.

C.C., on the other hand, rebuffed the front office prior to the 2007 season and then made a very public show of shutting down negotiations with the Indians at the start of 2008 spring training. The fact that he didn’t even talk to the Indians as a free agent, didn’t stay with the Brewers which he professed to want, didn’t return to California as he told friends he wanted to, didn’t stay in the National League where he could hit as was his preference … all this indicates very clearly he was out for the last dollar.

Cliff Lee? There isn’t a shred of evidence that even suggests that that’s what he wanted.

by Jay on Jan 19, 2010 9:23 PM EST up reply actions  

You’re right that Lee expected to stay with the Phillies. But, I think he expected them to pay him top dollar (and he deserved it). I don’t think he expected to have to hold out to get what he deserved after the Phillies traded for him.

I have to acknowledge that you know more about Lee’s discussions with the Indians than I do. I was always under the impression that there was very little chance they could sign him unless they paid him what he could get elsewhere. I don’t think he would have given them a home-town discount or anything other than that. His having approached the Indians about an extension certainly suggests he was willing to stay here — but, I would have been really surprised if he did so on terms that were less than he could get elsewhere.

Anyway, CC was still the Indians best pitcher of the 90s, even if he was, shall we say, something less than a straight shooter?

'If I'm not here, 'I'll be somewhere else.'' Andy Marte

by peter m on Jan 19, 2010 10:34 PM EST up reply actions  

Look, someone who wants to sign an extension a year or more before free agency is, almost by definition, not holding out for top dollar. We aren’t ever going to know what Lee would have settled for, but if he wanted top dollar, he simply would have waited. I don’t know if you call that a hometown discount or what, but it’s a truism.

by Jay on Jan 19, 2010 10:54 PM EST up reply actions  

Cliff Lee approached the Indians about an extension after what was by leaps and bounds the best year of career. He had a ton of leverage—in fact, many on this site (take that, Andrew) thought he was unlikely to be a repeat Cy Young threat. He was under contract for two years, but he was, is, and will always remain a pitcher—a position that bestows upon him the single highest risk of potential career-ending injury in professional sports. Had anyone else said it, I would retort that to say his leverage was low, based on contact status to the exclusion of all other factors, was ignorant. Instead, I must impute an intentional misstatement.

Cliff Lee, like nearly all professional athletes, and nearly all human beings, was concerned solely about doing right by himself and his own. He was and is no different in any material respect than CC Sabathia. No amount of attitude, no Southern aloof badness, no nonchalant Yankees showing-up cans-of-corn can change this. As peter says, he has every right to seek the last possible dollar. But don’t tell me that he’s any different than the Cazzi Culone just because he has yet to hit the free market, or because his Cy Young year was two years before free agency and not one.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 19, 2010 10:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Sorry, but his leverage was low. He’s the one under control for two more years, he’s the one with everything to lose if he doesn’t get an extension done. That’s low leverage. His value may have been way up, but his leverage was still low.

by Jay on Jan 19, 2010 10:55 PM EST up reply actions  

So it is your official position that a pitcher, who had previously had a career ERA+ of 94 and, after the worst season of his career, put up a 168 and won a Cy Young award at age 29, had low leverage, because he had two years remaining on the deal he wished to extend.

I don’t feel like launching a sustained argument. I disgree, though, in the strongest possible terms.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 19, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Look at this way … the other side walked away with barely a shrug. That’s low leverage. What could be lower than that?

by Jay on Jan 19, 2010 11:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Truth be told, I have my doubts that the Indians ever seriously considered keeping him. If I were in their position, I certainly wouldn’t have.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 19, 2010 11:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Then you would would be wrong: Lee’s the keeper here.

Everybody remembers most complicated events differently. Me, I remember Culone playin’ Indians fans like Jascha Heifets usta play the violin – not as dramatically as LeStunod, but close. Lee didn’t talk much about his contract unless he was asked about it and then he kept in terse. I prefer terse to loquacious.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Jan 19, 2010 11:24 PM EST up reply actions  

How exactly did CC play fans? He wasn’t Jim Thome out there. Only the most blind optimist thought he was going to stay in town.

by fwembt on Jan 19, 2010 11:56 PM EST up reply actions  

Dude, were you reading this blog in 2007-8? It was chock full of “blind optimist(s)”.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Jan 20, 2010 12:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Really? In 2007-08 there was a plurality of people who thought CC would stay in town. I don’t remember that. That also doesn’t answer the question of how CC played the fans.

by fwembt on Jan 20, 2010 1:07 AM EST up reply actions  

Was searchin’ for one of Jay’s pieces c2007 about this subject. Couldn’t find it – looks like most of the 2007 stuff ain’t archived – but I’m pretty sure the guys here will tell you that the majority of bloggers here were cautiously optimistic about Culone resignin’ with the Tribe. Me, I knew it would never happen.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Jan 20, 2010 1:46 AM EST up reply actions  

This doesn’t seem right to me, but I could be wrong.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 20, 2010 10:06 AM EST up reply actions  

You’re not wrong. To the extent that there was optimism, it was a matter of whether there was some small chance over no chance.

Man, we sure play the “mock the optimism in light of the recent misfortunes game” a lot around here. (It’s not a catchy title.) There has been plenty of dashed hopes to rip on, so I don’t know why people have to embelish on what was said, or assign it to everyone.

by dgcambridge on Jan 20, 2010 11:22 AM EST up reply actions  

I don’t know if this is in response to Chuck or in defense of him, but in his own way, he is very optimistic Indians fan, as rah-rah as anybody here.

by Jay on Jan 20, 2010 11:24 AM EST up reply actions  

I love Chuck, and he is absolutely as rah-rah as anybody here. But I don’t understand his way to be optimism. And it probably shouldn’t be. He’s seen a lot of Cleveland sports.

by dgcambridge on Jan 20, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Thanks for the kind words Dave.

 And you’re right my pessimism and optimism seem to wax and wane unpredictably. All I can say is, just live through about 20 more seasons like last season and – if you’re still and Indians fan – you’ll be manic/depressive too.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Jan 20, 2010 11:08 PM EST up reply actions  

That you post here, Chuck, is a testament to your optimism. Same thing with SuddenSam, CactusJack, and a few of our other less junior posters.

by APV on Jan 21, 2010 5:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Agree with this. I don’t know how much longer I can take it, but I am willing to give it a go.

by Roger Dorn on Jan 21, 2010 10:49 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you’re right about this. Lee had a great year, after a terrible one. I’d be nervous about extending someone in that situation, especially after the Hafner/Westbrook deals didn’t exactly work out!

Jay’s right that Lee had very little leverage under the circumstances; but, as the season went on a. his leverage grew as he got closer to the end of his deal and b. his leverage grew as it became apparent that the Cy Young year was not a fluke. If I were the Indians, I’d have avoided extending him at the beginning of the year; by the middle of the year, I’d be increasingly worried that re-signing him would be much more expensive than it was in March and that Lee was likely to test the free-agency market (given that he’d been rebuffed earlier and given a second strong year).

'If I'm not here, 'I'll be somewhere else.'' Andy Marte

by peter m on Jan 20, 2010 12:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Oops, I lied about the sustained argument.

he’s the one with everything to lose if he doesn’t get an extension done.

Everything, of course, except for the possibility of the career-ending or -altering injury that makes every long-term deal between a small-to-mid-market team and a pitcher entering his thirties a bad idea.

OK, now I’m done.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 19, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

OK, now I’m done.

MTF, dogg, never, ever post anything like this. Check the time stamp on your post just above this’n.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Jan 19, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

in fact, many on this site (take that, Andrew) thought he was unlikely to be a repeat Cy Young threat.

I told my friend Fausto Carmona was a better fantasy draft. True story.

by afh4 on Jan 20, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I told a lot of people that Carmona was a great fantasy deal. In other news, I’ve bought into Duke for the seventh consecutive January.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 20, 2010 9:14 PM EST up reply actions  

Did you post this before or after losing to NC State by 14?

by Roger Dorn on Jan 21, 2010 10:50 AM EST up reply actions  

Somebody texted me last night during the last ten minutes, “I’m nervous!”

I texted back: “You don’t have to be. They’re losing in the sweet sixteen. Mark it down.”

by afh4 on Jan 21, 2010 1:47 PM EST up reply actions  

And you wonder why no one will be your FB friend.

by YoDaddyWags on Jan 20, 2010 9:37 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

He was our best player in this decade though, no matter what you think of him.

by fwembt on Jan 19, 2010 11:57 PM EST up reply actions  

And Pete Rose was the Reds best player of the 70’s and Denny McLain was the best Tiger of the 60s and Ty Cobb the best Tiger 10s and OJ the best Bill of the 70’s. So what? They were/are all jackasses.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Jan 20, 2010 12:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Hey, I’m trying to pretend the Bills don’t exist at the moment. Thanks for your cooperation.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 20, 2010 6:18 AM EST up reply actions  

Indians of the Decade: CC Jackass

There, fixed the title.

I've really got to change my signature.

by emd2k3 on Jan 19, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Constantly updated Indians news, lots of in-depth analysis, live in-game discussions — and more fanatical and thoughtful Indians fans than every other web site combined.
Start posting about the Indians »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

Connect_with_facebook

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Royconrad_fullthrottle_small
25 for 25: Indians
Photo_319_small
Graduating from Prospectdom
Colevatar_small
Thank You, Indians Fans
964_small
2011 Tribe Patches
Profile_small
Draft position and the Hall of Fame
Snyder_small
Revisiting 2010 Pecota Projections
Draft_lens6670022module54040272photo_1251768414louissockalexisicon4b_small
Fun with Sabermetrics! Or, WARrior in Woolworths
Colevatar_small
Question for Indians fans
Pryor_small
LGT Fantasy Football
Sbn_ds_small
August 6th, Twins vs Indians - Simulation

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Featured Poll

Poll
Is the SBN Cleveland "fan confidence poll" totally stupid?
Yes
104 votes
No
21 votes
Stupid, but not totally stupid
94 votes

219 votes | Poll has closed

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

Came across this completely randomly - pretty cool to see like this.
Always condescend ...
Lofton HOF Poll & Discussion
Official September Callups
"I have to be an example because most of (the younger players) have never...
Corey Kluber to Columbus
Could Colby Rasmus be available in the offseason?
Manny to CWS
Feller Diagnosed with Leukemia
Indians closer Chris Perez: "This kid is going to become one of the best...

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

SBNation.com Recent Stories

ATLANTA - APRIL 22:  Omar Infante #4 of the Atlanta Braves celebrates after scoring against the Philiadelphia Phillies at Turner Field on April 22, 2010 in Atlanta, Georgia.  (Photo by Kevin C. Cox/Getty Images)

Albert Pujols, Joey Votto, And The Triple Crown Villains Who Plot Their Ruin

Washington Nationals' Nyjer Morgan, center, is led off the field after a brawl during the sixth inning of a baseball game against the Florida Marlins, Wednesday, Sept. 1, 2010, in Miami. (AP Photo/Wilfredo Lee) +4 updates

Nats, Marlins Brawl After Nyjer Morgan Charges Mound

Photo

Aroldis Chapman Touches 104, Earns First Win As Reds Rally Past Brewers

More from SBNation.com >


Managers

427px-nap_lajoie_1913_small Ryan

Dosequisman_small Jay

Editors

3444ant_black_small APV

47b8dd28b3127cceb64839d9746800000026102bauwjrq3za_small afh4