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Around SBN: Clippers Need To Realize That Spurs Are The Anti-Grizzlies

John Sickels lists his top 20 prospects for the Cleveland Indians over at his SBN site Minor League Ball. He notes that this list is "extremely preliminary". T.J. "Big Momma's" House getting some love making it in the top ten.

over 2 years ago Hans_tiny hans 55 comments 0 recs  | 

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Comments

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But the pitching. . .wow, there is a lot of depth in pitching.

by Brick. on Jan 9, 2010 12:09 PM EST reply actions  

Could be Rookie of the Year. . .or he could post a 5.00 ERA in Triple-A.

Carrasco in a nutshell…

I need a new avatar...

by stuart dean on Jan 9, 2010 12:24 PM EST reply actions  

Isn’t this true of pretty much every rookie pitcher? TINSTAAP after all.

Tribe fan trapped in Kansas

by Avindian on Jan 9, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Well I think what Sickels is getting at is Carrasco’s actual performance has varied greatly, I mean he gave up 23 runs in 22.1 innings in the bigs last season, but only 18 runs in 42.3 innings in AAA Columbus for the Indians.

by hans on Jan 9, 2010 2:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Carrasco’s one standard deviation is greater than the norm. Breathtaking upside coupled with breathtaking WTF…

I need a new avatar...

by stuart dean on Jan 9, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

and he was inconsistent in AAA. he was good but he had good games and bad games.

by bross09 on Jan 10, 2010 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

I hate when a player doesn’t perform exactly the same in every game.

by Jay on Jan 10, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Chortled out loud.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jan 10, 2010 8:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Loved the use of chortled.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Jan 10, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe the kids are saying “COL”

Before taking Pro-Acta, please consult your doctor. Do not taunt Pro-Acta.

by Ockus_NYC on Jan 12, 2010 11:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess you build pitching depth in bulk with C and C+ guys and that’s what we’re doing. What I find interesting with all of these different prospect lists is that even in these really deep lists you find yourself saying as the one poster did, “Hey, where the hell is Jeanmar Gomez”? The depth is really outstanding.

Like that idea that Mitch Talbot could maybe be Randy Wells too.

by cheech99 on Jan 9, 2010 1:45 PM EST reply actions  

I love how you can look at the comments and immediately identify the LGTers via no subject line.

by dgcambridge on Jan 9, 2010 2:22 PM EST reply actions  

I think his assessment of Brantley is more realistic than some of the others I have seen. Unless he develops more power (Johnny Damon), dude needs to be getting on base at a .380 clip or higher (Chone Figgins) or become an elite base stealer (Juan Pierre) to be an everyday player .

by piersall on Jan 9, 2010 2:46 PM EST reply actions  

That is an interesting comp. Of course, Span pulled off the nifty trick of making the jump at Age 24 such that he has been better in the majors than he ever was in the minors. I want one of those.

by dgcambridge on Jan 10, 2010 12:41 AM EST up reply actions  

OK, so my recollection of these players may be off. My larger point is that, because he isn’t an elite defender and doesn’t hit for power, Brantley has to have an OBP over .380 to be starting. Maybe that’s an obvious point, but I think it’s worth making, because I think he’s going to have difficulty achieving that at the ML level. If he doesn’t develop more power (Span seems to have), I think ML pitchers will start pounding the strike zone on him, and he’s not going to get the walks he got in the minors.

It will also be interesting to see how Span does on grass and outside.

by piersall on Jan 10, 2010 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

I think your logic makes too many assumptions. He has never had power, so presumably pitchers aren’t afraid to challenge him, yet he has always walked in more than 10% of his AB at his minor league stops. And if they don’t want to walk him and they’ll try to put it over the plate, fine — he’s got a great batting eye and, apparently, is hard to strike out. His strikeout rate has dropped at every stop. Sans his MLB debut, he’s becoming harder to strike out. If they put it over the plate and he doesn’t walk, he hits it. And he’s hits more grounders than flyballs and he’s fast — fast enough to sustain a higher than average BABIP, especially with all those grounders.

 I don’t know that .380 is the baseline of acceptability. The average AL batter in 2009 hit .267/.336/.428. The average LF in both leagues hit .272./.345/.443. He’ll likely hit for average and get on base at average to above average clips, but he’s likely not going to approach league average slugging in 2010.

But we can’t discount his contributions on the base paths. I find it hard to believe he’s going to be anything less than average. He’ll probably be above average. I’m not talking just stolen bases, but baserunning generally. And while his defense in CF isn’t elite, I’d guess that a fringe CF guy is going to be above average in a corner, especially in 81 games in LF in Progressive Field.

So yes, I agree with you, he has a glaring lack of power, and that lack of power may be so great as to offset his above average batting average and OBP. But that’s assuming he doesn’t improve his power output, which is the last skill to develop. But does his lack of power offset his total value? We don’t know how he’ll grade on the bases and in LF, but I’m guessing those will be two positives .

by xrickx on Jan 10, 2010 4:21 AM EST up reply actions  

It will be interesting to see how opposing clubs attack Brantley this seasons. Your typical fastball-hitting outfielder would get more sliders and pitches away, but Brantley is probably getting the opposite: fastballs up and inside and in the strikezone. As a hitter he doesn’t have many holes…except he hasn’t proved he can hit for power.

by Ryan on Jan 10, 2010 9:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Interesting…they know he has no power, so working him on the outer half of the plate ensures he’ll never be hitting homeruns. Hopefully he’ll use the opposite field, especially against lefties. If they do start pounding him inside, I hope he’s quick enough in there. And if they are working inside, I think it gives him a few more opportunities on pitches that stay down and in or that stray a bit over the plate to just open up and pull a few balls out of the park.

by xrickx on Jan 10, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

and putting him on base is also inviting SBs.

"I'm a baseball lifer. It's what I do." —Manny Acta

by westbrook on Jan 10, 2010 8:54 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it’s inevitable that he’ll develop some additional power, just based on his age, the only question is how minimal it will be.

by Jay on Jan 10, 2010 4:47 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree. Seems like some people totally disregard the projection/development still left for Brantley. He also isn’t all that small, though it’s no guarantee for power.

by JP_Frost on Jan 10, 2010 5:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Right. The scouts don’t project much power for him, but that has to be taken in context. Practically every player gains substantially in power from age 22 to 25, and sometimes into their late 20s as well.

by Jay on Jan 10, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t want to click, so I checked the URL and found “gonzalu” amusing.

"I'm a baseball lifer. It's what I do." —Manny Acta

by westbrook on Jan 10, 2010 8:55 PM EST up reply actions  

My only hesitation with this is how high his GB-rate is. If he doesn’t elevate his stroke a little bit I don’t know where the power will come from.

by APV on Jan 11, 2010 1:32 AM EST up reply actions  

Seems like a chicken/egg problem. He’s not going to elevate his stroke until and unless he reaches a point where he thinks he can produce more that way. As it is, he probably figure a single gets him to second base, if he really needs to get there, more often than not. He may be a good enough runner to grab one and possibly two extra bases over the course of an inning.

by Jay on Jan 11, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions  

I am in favor of calling T.J. “Big Mamma” from now on.

by Jay on Jan 9, 2010 3:01 PM EST reply actions  

thirded

I need a new avatar...

by stuart dean on Jan 9, 2010 3:18 PM EST up reply actions  

This system is stupid deep. Also, where’s Price?

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Jan 9, 2010 5:28 PM EST reply actions  

Think you answered your own question here.

by Jay on Jan 9, 2010 5:48 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

He should have been top 20.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Jan 10, 2010 9:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Only Bob Barker can anwser that question.

by GoTribe028 on Jan 9, 2010 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Price has as much of chance as Graham or Espino. Let’s swap him out for Webb.

by dgcambridge on Jan 10, 2010 12:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Here’s what Sickels said about him in August of last year:

12) Bryan Price, RHP Grade B-: Traded to Indians. Pitched great in the Sally League before the trade, lousy in the Carolina League, has performed well in two starts since switching from Salem to Kinston. I’d say C+ now.

As you can see, Sickels had him 12th on the Red Sox preseason top 20. Hagadone was 8th.

by dgcambridge on Jan 10, 2010 12:47 AM EST up reply actions  

Never heard of Eric Berger.

"I'm a baseball lifer. It's what I do." —Manny Acta

by westbrook on Jan 9, 2010 11:58 PM EST reply actions  

I have, but he’s a pediatrician, not a ballplayer.

by Jay on Jan 10, 2010 12:03 AM EST up reply actions  

2008 draft pick, 8th round, University of Arizona

by talonk on Jan 10, 2010 9:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I think this is a fine list, although the exact rankings and grades seem somewhat arbitrary to me. I’ll be interested to see what Sickels thinks of some of the Tribe prospects next year. With Lake County moving from the Sally League to the Midwest League, Sickels will probably actually watch a few Indians play. I think he relies almost exclusively on other peoples reports and college/high school evals for Tribe players now.

I also don’t know how these two things can go together in a single evaluation:

he’ll have a long career

Grade C+

If you are saying a long career is worthy of a C+ grade, I have no idea what your grades mean.

by APV on Jan 10, 2010 3:56 AM EST reply actions  

Sal Fasano has had a long career.

Welcome back, Sandy! ATALECG...

by USSChoo on Jan 10, 2010 6:36 AM EST up reply actions  

I had forgotten about the move from the Sally to the MIdwest. That’s TWO reasons to go to Lugnuts games this year!

by NickFantana on Jan 11, 2010 12:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I don’t think there is anyone in the minors with comparable set of “mustache tools” to Fasano.

As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.

by bigbrabbs on Jan 10, 2010 3:43 PM EST reply actions  

Oops, meant to be a reply to Choo….

As General Manager of this team, I demand to know when I'm getting a start.

by bigbrabbs on Jan 10, 2010 3:44 PM EST up reply actions  

This part is beyond true.

Welcome back, Sandy! ATALECG...

by USSChoo on Jan 11, 2010 2:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I think I might be ready to start thinking about baseball again.

I propose giving Victor a 2012 World Series ring.

by Gradyforpresident on Jan 10, 2010 7:29 PM EST reply actions  

You must be a Packers fan.

by Toxicadam on Jan 10, 2010 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

You stopped at some point? Really? It’s like I don’t even know you anymore….

I just wanted to believe.

by mjmarble on Jan 11, 2010 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

There is just a huge variety of C+ arms beyond this group, mixing up guys with hot stuff, guys with projection, and guys with pitchability.

What does pitchability mean?

by odradek on Jan 12, 2010 12:27 AM EST reply actions  

They can easily be be pitched and/or tossed?

Welcome back, Sandy! ATALECG...

by USSChoo on Jan 12, 2010 2:50 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Pitchability is knowing how to pitch. Basically, it’s the intelligence to or knack for getting batters out, beyond pure stuff and simple quality of pitches. Some would say it’s the ability to retain command while using a mix of pitches.

by Jay on Jan 12, 2010 5:06 AM EST up reply actions  

That makes sense, thanks. Now that I look at it, what is the difference between “guys with hot stuff” and “projection”? That seems like a fine distinction. Isn’t stuff and quality of pitches the same thing?

by odradek on Jan 12, 2010 6:27 AM EST up reply actions  

well, projection generally means that a guy projects to have good stuff when he matures/fills out, while a pitcher with stuff already has it. For example — Hagadone is a pitcher with hot stuff, while Trey Haley projects to have good stuff (not saying Haley will reach his potential, but he’s the typical projectability pitcher).

by JP_Frost on Jan 12, 2010 8:34 AM EST up reply actions  

i think a quality pitch is stuff with control.

by Brick. on Jan 12, 2010 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

“Stuff” generally means velocity and movement.

“Quality of pitches” means, essentially, how many different types of pitches does have have that (a) successfully fool hitters and (b) can be thrown consistently for strikes.

Lots of guys have one but not the other.

by Jay on Jan 12, 2010 11:04 AM EST up reply actions  

say like Jamie Moyer?

by talonk on Jan 12, 2010 2:53 PM EST up reply actions  

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