2010 in Review: Third Base

by Ryan on Oct 18, 2010 11:11 AM EDT in Analysis

Posts in this series:

Team Offense	Team Pitching	Team Defense
Catcher	First Base	Second Base
Shortstop	Third Base	Designated Hitter
Left Field	Center Field	Right Field
Starting Pitching	Relief Pitching

Part I: Review

2010 Overview

Jhonny Peralta manned third base up until his trade to Detroit in July. After that, there was a vacuum at the position, with three players (Jayson Nix, Luis Valbuena, and Andy Marte) getting playing time. Jayson Nix ended the season as more or less the everyday player, though he struggled to play the position. Nix, Valbuena, and Marte are all currently on the roster.

Defense

Name	Pos	Inn	RngR	ErrR	UZR	UZR/150
Jhonny Peralta	3B	780	-7.6	4.8	-2.6	-4.1
Jayson Nix	3B	321	1.3	-5.6	-4	-17.4
Andy Marte	3B	264	3.2	-3.7	0	0.3
Luis Valbuena	3B	66	0.2	-1	-0.8	-20.3
Anderson Hernandez	3B	1	0.1	0.1	0	24.6

Third base was a major problem defensively. According to UZR, the problem was range with Peralta, and errors with everyone else.

The leader in UZR of this group is Andy Marte with 0. Jhonny Peralta caught the balls he got to (ErrR) but didn't get to very many (RngR). Jayson Nix had ok range, but made a lot of errors. Andy Marte had good range and stone hands. These numbers mesh with the what my impressions were of these players. Marte looked a lot smoother at the position than Nix, but Marte's been a third baseman his whole career, while Nix has mainly been a second baseman.

Offense

When I first saw these offensive splits, I had thought I made a mistake. Keep in mind, these are the offensive numbers at third base only.

Rk		G	PA ▾	AB	2B	3B	HR	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
1	Jhonny Peralta	90	373	334	23	2	7	32	69	.246	.308	.389	.698	.284	98	88
2	Jayson Nix	40	153	141	7	0	4	7	40	.220	.275	.355	.629	.276	88	70
3	Andy Marte	32	107	98	4	2	4	8	19	.306	.355	.510	.865	.342	153	132
4	Luis Valbuena	9	29	27	0	0	0	1	7	.222	.276	.222	.498	.300	87	38
	Team Total	162	662	600	34	4	15	48	135	.248	.307	.393	.700	.293	99	89

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 10/18/2010.

Apparently, Marte really likes playing at third, and really hates playing anywhere else:

Split	G	PA	AB	2B	3B	HR	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
as 1B	22	70	61	3	0	1	9	11	.148	.257	.246	.503	.163	51	28
as 3B	32	107	98	4	2	4	8	19	.306	.355	.510	.865	.342	153	132
as DH	3	5	5	0	0	0	0	2	.000	.000	.000	.000	.000	-100	-100
as PH	9	9	9	0	0	0	0	5	.000	.000	.000	.000	.000	-100	-100
as PH for DH	3	3	3	0	0	0	0	2	.000	.000	.000	.000	.000	-100	-100

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 10/18/2010.

And Jayson Nix likes playing second base a lot better than third:

Split	G	PA	AB	2B	HR	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
as 2B	27	110	100	5	7	6	24	.250	.312	.510	.822	.261	140	126
as 3B	54	197	177	8	5	14	47	.209	.281	.339	.620	.254	86	68
as SS	1	1	1	0	0	0	0	1.000	1.000	1.000	2.000	1.000	508	481
as LF	2	8	8	0	0	0	1	.125	.125	.125	.250	.143	-24	-34
as RF	1	3	3	0	0	0	1	.000	.000	.000	.000	.000	-100	-100
as DH	9	37	35	2	2	0	12	.229	.222	.457	.679	.273	94	76
as PH	7	7	7	0	0	0	2	.286	.286	.286	.571	.400	74	80

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 10/18/2010.

Since Nix essentially stopped playing second after Peralta was traded, this weird split could just be due to timing, though you can't dismiss it out of hand. I think it's more likely that the offensive dropoff was due to pitchers making adjustments towards the end of the season, though, since the major offensive slump didn't occur until September, more than a month after he started to play third full-time.

I can't explain Marte's splits, though. His career splits at first and third are pretty even. His very high BABIP while playing third suggests that those numbers can't be used for predictive purposes.

Here's now Indians third basemen as a group compared to the rest of the AL:

Rk		PA	AB	2B	3B	HR	BB	SO	BA	OBP	SLG	OPS ▾	BAbip	tOPS+	sOPS+
1	BOS	695	641	52	2	31	42	89	.321	.364	.554	.918	.331	130	145
2	TBR	712	617	47	5	23	79	137	.285	.365	.489	.855	.327	131	130
3	TOR	630	562	33	3	38	55	111	.251	.321	.523	.844	.246	118	124
4	TEX	750	686	36	4	21	52	121	.284	.332	.440	.772	.314	103	108
5	NYY	698	619	27	3	27	62	114	.254	.319	.438	.757	.265	92	103
6	KCR	685	628	34	1	17	51	98	.283	.334	.422	.756	.310	107	104
7	CHW	646	575	29	1	11	58	105	.266	.333	.377	.711	.307	90	93
8	DET	673	602	30	5	18	59	155	.238	.308	.394	.701	.287	87	89
9	CLE	662	600	34	4	15	48	135	.248	.307	.393	.700	.293	99	89
10	MIN	630	569	28	5	9	47	106	.264	.318	.378	.696	.305	83	89
11	BAL	686	646	28	0	16	21	109	.260	.290	.378	.668	.287	90	80
12	OAK	674	630	34	1	17	32	120	.243	.285	.381	.666	.273	89	79
13	SEA	670	636	32	0	10	24	92	.226	.259	.324	.583	.250	82	57
14	LAA	646	600	26	0	8	33	79	.223	.266	.307	.573	.244	64	56
	TOT	9457	8611	470	34	261	663	1571	.261	.315	.414	.729	.289	98	96

Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Original Table
Generated 10/18/2010.

I was prepared for a much worse showing, but again, the offense was way down across the board. Two clubs (SEA and LAA) had their third basemen as group post an OPS+ under 60(!), and only three clubs had a positional OPS+ over 110. Third base is traditionally an offensive position, but at least this year it wasn't.

Part II: Looking Towards 2011

Not Coming Back

Jhonny Peralta (Traded, 7-28-10)

Peralta was dealt because the Indians weren't going to pick up his 2011 option, and wanted to see if anyone else on the roster could be an everyday third baseman. After going to Detroit, Peralta moved back to shortstop, and may be brought back by the Tigers.

Returning

Jayson Nix (Pre-Arbitration) - No Option Years Remaining

Luis Valbuena (Pre-Arbitration) - 1 Option Year Remaining

Both of these guys are really second basemen, and need to improve their defense at third to get playing time here next season. Nix at the very least will be a utility player next year, and if the Indians don't go get a free agent, would be the default starter. Valbuena is likely ticketed to Columbus, and needs to get his offensive game back on track.

To Be Determined

Andy Marte (1st Year Arbitration) - No Option Years Remaining

I think it's time for the Indians and Marte to part ways. He's not going to make much even being arbitration eligible, but the Indians obviously didn't think enough of him to give him a real shot after trading Peralta, so why continue the farce?

In the Minors

Jared Goedert (Not on 40-Man Roster)

Cord Phelps (Not on 40-Man Roster)

Lonnie Chisenhall (Not on 40-Man Roster)

Goedert is the most likely to see playing time in the majors next season, but Phelps and Chisenhall are the better prospects. Phelps will be learning to play third base this winter, so he'll need some time in Columbus to determine if the position change will work. Chisenhall is probably a year away, but might get a late-season callup if/when the Indians are out of it.

The Indians are also likely to bring in a free agent or trade for a major-leaguer to start at third base. Whoever they bring in has to be a major defensive upgrade over Nix and Valbuena.

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Comments

I’ll confess I haven’t done the research, but I just don’t see how we’re going to find anyone to man third base who would represent an upgrade over Marte. He may not be the long-term answer, but he’s right-handed, he has power, and he’s not a disaster defensively. To me, especially given our overwhelming left-handedness, he looks like the ideal placeholder for (and then platoon-partner with) Chisenhall.

by ken from alexandria on Oct 18, 2010 11:56 AM EDT reply actions

Could change your time stamp to:

Oct 18, 2009 11:15 AM EDT

The whole Marte saga vexes and bewilders me. He ain’t the answer answer but he was/is at least a partial, temporary answer amidst a sea of questions.

by stuart dean on Oct 18, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions

Here’s my crazy pro-Marte conspiratorial theory: the Tribe knows what they have in Marte, so they just went ahead and plugged Nix in at 3B after the Peralta trade to see if Nix could get used to it in preparation for a super-utility role next season—Marte’s card for next season has already been punched.

by Deep South Ken on Oct 18, 2010 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions

You’re right, that is crazy.

Come on, four billion!

by Joel D on Oct 19, 2010 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions

Maybe it was a Shapiro thing.
But he traded for him.
Maybe Antonetti traded for him…

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 20, 2010 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions

Five years ago? Seems like a stretch.

by Jay on Oct 20, 2010 8:41 AM EDT up reply actions

That’s the thing about conspiracies—you don’t need evidence. The possible starts to seem plausible: the unveiling of Antonetti’s secret plan!

by Deep South Ken on Oct 20, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions

Yes, exactly.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 20, 2010 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions

It was satirical.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 20, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Hire Andy and leave him at the hot corner.

READ THIS ANTONETTI!!!

by JulioBernazard on Oct 18, 2010 1:10 PM EDT reply actions

2007 was the last time Marte came in as the starting anything, right? And in that season he got a 13 game trial in April before being banished till September. 2006 he got extensive time during the second half of the season and was decent. Hmm…

by APV on Oct 18, 2010 1:27 PM EDT reply actions

Is this horse still breathing?

by emd2k3 on Oct 18, 2010 1:42 PM EDT reply actions

As long as he’s on the roster and no one better is

by APV on Oct 18, 2010 2:01 PM EDT up reply actions

I was actually hoping someone would step up and say something like “Oh, we should sign so-and-so, who is another RH-hitting 3B with pop and a decent glove. He’d be better than Marte.” As I said, I haven’t done the necessary research, but just eye-balling ML and AAA rosters, I don’t see how we upgrade. Andy LaRoche? I don’t think so.

by ken from alexandria on Oct 18, 2010 1:53 PM EDT reply actions

Paul put up his argument for Kevin Kouzmanoff on Sunday.

by APV on Oct 18, 2010 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions

I wasn’t persuaded. Kouzmanoff’s 2010 OPS = .679, Marte’s = .680. You could make a case for Joe Crede, maybe, if the price were right (i.e., dirt cheap). Honestly, I’d rather take a flyer on Jared Goedert than to watch the Nix/Valbuena show again.

by ken from alexandria on Oct 18, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions

The conversation is not about offense, it’s about defense and Goedert is purported to be much worse than Nix and Valbuena. I’d love to see Marte be given a shot, but when he was given chances in 2010, he (as Ryan said) “had good range and stone hands”.

Marte should have looked like Mike Schmidt at 3B in comparison to Nix and Valbuena in the field and he just didn’t. Kouzmanoff at least provides better and steadier defense, if not better offense. If we’re talking about equal offensive players, I take Kouzmanoff over Marte, costs considered.

by The DiaTriber on Oct 18, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Marte never played a complete series start to finish at 3rd base. He’d play as Nix’s caddy in the 9th, then spot starts. Timing for a 3rd baseman is critical. So little time once the ball is hit—no wonder it’s the hot corner. That managers replace them in the last inning is perplexing. Isn’t it hard to jump into a situation where the batter is all over you, but you have little sense of what pitches he’s been hitting, or where he’s been susceptible to curves or fastballs, previous hits—shadows in the ballpark, background colors that may cause confusion, noises, hottie in a tube top in row 10—just a thousand different variables, that the 3rd baseman has to process and juggle with little reaction time?In the 9th inning, unless you are replacing the 3rd baseman with a Vizquel, would a team be better off with the starter remaining? Anyway, it sounded disingenuous to hear Acta complain about fielding at 3rd when he managed it like a Little League position. If he’d just stuck Andy there, instead of handing it to Jaysons Nix for no apparently good reason, defense would have improved. Marte’s previous’ years defensive numbers are ok. Marte is superior defensive and offensive player, but Acta gives the job to Jayson Nix, off waivers? Head scratcher. The organization is not forthcoming on this situation, which makes me doubt the presumption of rightness they normally receive.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Oct 18, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs

I don’t think you’d get much of an argument from anyone here. The Indians thought better of Jayson Nix to move him to a position he wasn’t comfortable at than a guy who actually plays the position and who has just as much upside.

by Ryan on Oct 18, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions

Perhaps Nix has the sweet bird of youth on his side, I pondered—but then I discovered he’s one year older than Marte too. I just didn’t understand this love for Jayson Nix to hand him the 3rd base job. Maybe they’d be better off to stop collecting marginal guys to muddy the waters on prospects trying to make it to the next level. I know they love the “competition”, but seems more recently to sow confusion and uncertainty. Just stick Marte at 3rd for the first 3 months of the season, then just release him if it’s not panning out. No more dicking around replacing Nix in the 9th, or bringing to the plate for that key bunt.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Oct 18, 2010 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions

Arbitration. Nix is cheaper.

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions

Marte won’t get much of an arbitration raise, but I can see the Indians non-tendering Marte to save a few bucks. What are Indians gonna say to him when the cuts come. “It’s not you Andy, it’s me” “Andy, we’re not good enough for you”.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Oct 19, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions

They don’t have to say a damned thing.

Still, they won’t pay Andy more than they could pay Jayson, not even 100K more, because why would they?

One of them can play 2B, and the other one can’t. If they don’t think Andy is a better hitter, then he’s gone.

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions

Management doesn’t have to say anything to anybody. That’ s their perogative. Maybe they won’t pay 100K more. But listening to Acta complain about infield defense, and improving it would cost 100K more, which is about less 1/10th of 1.5% of payroll. I think that goes into penny wise, pound foolish realm. Anyway, we’ve got about 5 other second basemen, so keeping anyone around to backup there is overkill. They’ve already determined that Nix is the better hitter. The bats they gave him last season indicate that. How much did we pay Jamie Carroll to be a utility guy. Millions.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Oct 19, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions

I don’t think they were giving Nix AB last season so much as they were giving him reps at 3B.

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions

Again, I’d love to see Marte be given a full shot (the one that should have been afforded to him 5 times over by this point), but the exact usage pattern that you point out screams to me that the Indians don’t see Marte as a viable option.

We can argue until we’re all blue in the face as to whether that’s prudent, but it’s fairly obvious. That’s why I attempted to move past Marte in the discussion…just as the Indians have and will.

by The DiaTriber on Oct 19, 2010 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions

Call me a front office homer, but 2-3 years ago I was completely willing to give Shapiro and company the benefit of the doubt on personnel issues. Who were we to question? I’m not so sure they deserve it anymore. The draft was an almost complete debacle for ten years. To top it off, now we get to watch the masterful Cliff Lee, who wasn’t CLIFF LEE for most of his ages 23-29 in Cleveland, prime time. At age 28 in the 2007 playoffs versus Boston…I’m hallucinating.

Ya know, I want to hear it from Antonetti himself on why Marte is not playing 3rd base, because I’m not getting it, and they’ve used up their goodwill for me to take it on faith. Am I asking too much?

by Bogalusa Bomber on Oct 19, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions

The Lee thing is a little unfair. He had legitimate health issues, and by all accounts Lee credits the Indians staff not just with getting him healthy, but also getting him to clean up his mechanics and starting to use the cutter more against righties.

It was also the Indians who traded for Lee while he was in Double-A and locked him up through 2010 — including three years of “Cliff Lee being Cliff Lee.” True, we only got to enjoy half of those three years, but that doesn’t mean they made mistakes with Lee.

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions

Let me rant! Not having Lee in 2007 for that Bosox series, and watching him incinerate the Yanks yesterday. I just want to feel sad for myself for two minutes before I get cracking again.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Oct 19, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions

What were these health issues, exactly?

And was it the Triple A people who changed his mechanics and cutter usage, or the major league pitching coach willis? Or both?

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 20, 2010 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions

His agent just said “the Indians people.” I might guess it was Belcher, but it’s not clear. I’d have thought if it was Willis, he’d have just said so. He was talking to Hoynes.

by Jay on Oct 20, 2010 8:42 AM EDT up reply actions

Hoynes was the one who taught him the cutter.

by odradek on Oct 20, 2010 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs

He had oblique problems before. I remember him saying that he changed his workout regimen to strengthen his core that winter.

by Ryan on Oct 20, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions

The oblique problem constitutes “legitimate health issues?”

And how many games did an oblique injury keep him out of?

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 20, 2010 6:14 PM EDT up reply actions

For a pitcher? Of course it does. Try straining an oblique and then twisting your torso extremely violently 100 times over the course of three hours.

by Brad D on Oct 21, 2010 5:21 PM EDT up reply actions

Wow. What I meant was not, in the immediate aftermath of pulling an oblique muscle, can one pitch? In that case, your response makes sense. But I never implied that someone with an oblique injury doesn’t need to go on the DL – or anything, for that matter, which would warrant the reply you gave.

What I meant was that because a pitcher pulled an oblique once (or twice) how is that referred to as “legitimate health issues?” Legitimate health issues refers to maybe an elbow problem, a shoulder problem, or some chronic injury or major injury. Doesn’t a chronic problem or major injury constitute “health issues?” What pitcher doesn’t occasionally have a DL trip for a minor thing here or there?

So while I’m amazed at how much you could have misinterpreted what I wrote, I do notice that you didn’t answer my question. How many starts over his career did Cliff Lee miss due to his “legitimate oblique health issues?”

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 21, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions

I answered your first question. And yes, it’s a legitmate health issue. Any damage to the oblique of a pitcher is troubling and has the potential to be chronic. Lee himself has missed games in two different seasons because of the same injury.

by Brad D on Oct 23, 2010 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions

How many games?

And no, you misunderstood my first question. You are interpreting my question as if I’m saying an oblique is nothing and a pitcher can pitch with an injured oblique. I’m not saying anything like that. It’s a real injury that needs rest and healing.

But a pitcher pulling an oblique muscle and missing a few starts on the 15 day DL does not make that pitcher “injury prone” or categorized as having “considerable health issues” that should “excuse” the way he pitched over 4 seasons.

Is it really so hard to admit that he wasn’t as good of a pitcher in the earlier seasons of his career? Why blame non-existent injuries? When he was healthy, which was most of those other seasons, he simply wasn’t as good. (And he was already a good pitcher, but not an ace like he’s been lately).

Isn’t it pretty common for starting pitchers to miss a few games per season, and that is not considered “significant health problems” or that they are chronically injured etc. I really don’t see how pulling an oblique muscle makes a pitcher into someone considered injury prone and that’s why he wasn’t a cy young candidate until 2008.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 24, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions

All pitchers should be expected to be injury prone.

Once they’ve had an actual injury, they are in fact injury prone.

by Jay on Oct 24, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions

So because “he had an injury once” and “all pitchers are naturally injury prone,” even though Cliff Lee had 33 starts, 32 starts, and 33 starts from 2004-2006, “significant health issues” can be used as an explanation for why he didn’t pitch nearly as well in 2003-2007 as he did from 2008 to 2010?

And if every pitcher in baseball can be said to have “significant health issues,” it no longer makes sense to single out any individual pitcher for that classification as a unique tag in order to credit or criticize that pitcher.

I do consider his 2007 results to be an aberration, as any rational person should, but surely injuries are not and cannot be used as the reason he pitched very differently in 2008-2010 compared to 2003/2004 through 2006.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 25, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions

“Injury prone” is a weird concept. Does it mean star-crossed? Chronic? Malingerer? Low threshold for pain? Sometimes it just means unlucky, and the rash of injuries goes away and the player enjoys a nice career. It might be a function of how a player plays (pitching motion or an outfielder who runs into walls), but for the most part it seems to assign a cause to something that is most likely coincidental.

by odradek on Oct 25, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions

There is nothing coincidental about a pitcher getting injured. It is simply not an activity that a normal person can do without getting injured.

by Jay on Oct 26, 2010 9:44 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree with this, but to say a pitcher is prone to injury seems unnecessary. Rare pitchers throw without chronic injury, and that is the exception. I was thinking more about position players: how they are defined as prone to injury when it is probably just a random function.

by odradek on Oct 27, 2010 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions

I don’t know about this. It seems reasonable enough to me that certain people have good natural instincts and reflexes for avoiding injury in the way they react to collisions or falls … or that some folks are naturally a little more or less brittle … or both of these things could be true. I don’t see it as probably a random function.

by Jay on Oct 28, 2010 1:15 AM EDT up reply actions

Most people, yes. But most athletes? I think athletes have great reflexes and instincts and are pliable enough to avoid injuries that would cripple a layman.

by odradek on Oct 28, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions

I agree, athletes will tend to be very elevated in those areas compared to the average person. But it is a question of variety and degree. Not all pro athletes will have the exact same level of great reflexes, both in general and specific to avoiding injuries.

by Jay on Oct 29, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions

John Kruk was a fat slob, but he played more than 112 games in eight of his ten big league seasons.

by odradek on Oct 30, 2010 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions

Not sure if you’re kidding or not … 112 is not really a lot, is it?

Anyway, if we consider Kruk durable, that kind of demonstrates my point, i.e., ability to stay healthy as separate from overall athletic ability. Besides, we already know that baseball ability is not as strongly correlated to overall athleticism as it is in (possibly) every other sport.

by Jay on Oct 31, 2010 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions

Rec for “hottie in a tube top.”

by ken from alexandria on Oct 19, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions

I’m proud of that line. The Marte situation makes me sound like Hank Hill’s father when WW2 was brought up. My calf muscles are sore, maybe that’s a hint.

by Bogalusa Bomber on Oct 19, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions

I’ll be that guy. I know we like to rant about Marte, but it’s now over 900 PA, and he’s at on OPS of 635. The playing time has been sporadic and unfair, but 635. Nix is 30 points higher. 30 points is nothing to write home about, but shouldn’t Marte be way ahead. It’s Jayson freakin Nix. Kouz’ career OPS is 727.

My personal take is that I’d be plenty happy if they decided to just hand Marte the job to start 2011. He’s probably as good as the other options. But I can’t get onboard anymore with the idea that he’s clearly awesome.

by dgcambridge on Oct 19, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions

When was the last time anybody said Marte was awesome, let alone “clearly” awesome?

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions

Then why rant?

by dgcambridge on Oct 19, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions

Because he doesn’t have to be anything like “awesome” to be a sound choice to plug in for a half-season or three.

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions

Understood. I might take Kouz over Marte, too, all other things being equal, except that we’ve pretty much seen Kouz’s upside, whereas with Marte maybe we haven’t. Ironically, what we really need to do is find the 2002 version of Casey Blake.

by ken from alexandria on Oct 19, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions

Let’s face it – there was a reason we traded Kouzmanoff and kept Marte. I’ll be darned if I can figure out what that is based on the subsequent usage of Marte, but the organization had to see something in Kouzmanoff that made him expendable.

"If Brown is the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question." - Ryan

by woodsmeister on Oct 19, 2010 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions

Part of it was the Padres having a higher defensive opinion of Kouz than the Indians did.

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions

Part of it was also our belief that in trading him we had secured our 2nd baseman of the future.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Oct 19, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions

It remains a shock, just how wrong everyone was about that.

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions

Think about both Marte and Barfield from perceptions when they were acquired to where we are now. Unreal…

by The DiaTriber on Oct 19, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions

This may go further afield than intended, but I remember the winter on LGT when the constant refrain was about trading one of Byrd/Westbrook/Lee for (can’t remember—power-hitting outfielder?), and the consensus was that these were interchangeable players—which, at the time, wasn’t crazy.

by Deep South Ken on Oct 19, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Jason Bay.

"If Brown is the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question." - Ryan

by woodsmeister on Oct 19, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions

Lee-For-Quentin?
Laffey-For-Bay?
Westbrook-For-Kearns?

Adam Miller is healthier than Stephen Strasburg.

by westbrook on Oct 19, 2010 9:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Yeah, but Lee-for-Quentin was actually on the table in the real world, wasn’t it?

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Oct 19, 2010 9:51 PM EDT up reply actions

Well, there was the Laffey for Atkins rumor…

by Ryan on Oct 20, 2010 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions

We aren’t making the playoffs next year, we fill with what we’ve got and hope that either Phelps can play 3B or Chinsenhall keeps it going.

by Roger Dorn on Oct 18, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions

Ryah Garko.

by elsandito on Oct 18, 2010 5:33 PM EDT reply actions

Too late. He was already signed by Seattle as their third baseman this morning.

by stuart dean on Oct 18, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions

Third-base/right field utility. Essentially, their new Mark McLemore.

"If Brown is the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question." - Ryan

by woodsmeister on Oct 19, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions

Marte’s .342 BABIP isn’t necessarily all BS.

But let’s say it should have been .315 — a little uncharitable, but let’s do it anyway.

That takes away two of his 30 BIP hits, knocking him down to 28. Let’s further assume that it’s one double and one single that get taken away — three total bases.

Ya know what? Marte still ends up hitting .286, with a .336 OBP and .480 slugging.

by Jay on Oct 18, 2010 10:35 PM EDT reply actions

It is a small sample, but with Marte that’s all we have. And that’s what makes it so maddening given who the Indians were running out there.

by Ryan on Oct 18, 2010 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions

and of course the defense side of the equation.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 20, 2010 2:43 AM EDT up reply actions

our 3B situation, Marte included, is like some horrible band-aid that the front office is pulling off as slowly as possible

by APV on Oct 18, 2010 11:17 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs

Its a big ass band-aid, and its being pulled at a historically slow rate.

Anything in life is possible, except for skiing through revolving doors.

by MooneysRebellion on Oct 19, 2010 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions

I had the feeling at one brief point last year that Marte was being given the 3B job. He promptly went out and made a complete hash of fielding his position.

While I agree he’s the best pure 3B we have, and have had for a couple seasons, Marte has done an extraordinarily poor job of taking advantage of any opportunity to get more playing time.

by mcrose on Oct 19, 2010 9:56 AM EDT reply actions

Yes … and that remains a moronic way for the Indians to dole out playing time.

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions

I agree. Especially when there’s so little on the line.

Personally, I think the answer is a very simple one – the coaches have spent a lot of time with Marte trying to get him to make adjustments, show commitment (whatever that might mean to them), etc, and it basically doesn’t have much of an apparent impact.

He’s the kind of player that if he’s in the lineup every day eventually gets going, but the whole carrot and stick thing is basically lost on him. If he doesn’t take advantage of his short stints and play like it means something to him, he’s not going to get “rewarded” with more playing time.

by mcrose on Oct 19, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions

Plus, he’s 31 now…

by The DiaTriber on Oct 19, 2010 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs

Ha, made me look it up.

Andy turns 27 in two days. I guess part of the reason we were so convinced of his eventual usefulness was that he was so damned young.

by Jay on Oct 19, 2010 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions

He’s just entering his peak production years! Why can’t they see that?!

His age 20 and 21 years at AA and AAA were outasight. Cautionary note: comparing Chiz and Marte’s #’s age and level at those ages. Marte blows him away.

by mcrose on Oct 19, 2010 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions

He’s about to turn into Cliff Lee.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Oct 20, 2010 2:45 AM EDT up reply actions

Do we know what’s on Andy’s reading list? #InsertPunchlineHere

"If Brown is the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question." - Ryan

by woodsmeister on Oct 20, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions

Too easy.

by still ill on Oct 20, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions

If he had free super saver shipper status, he could add this.

by stuart dean on Oct 20, 2010 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions

he did look pretty good in his inning of relief this year.

"An intelligent man is sometimes forced to be drunk to spend time with his fools" -Hemingway

by notthatnoise on Oct 20, 2010 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs

Getting tired of all the hand wringing over the Tribe’s handling of Marte. Wedge found reasons to start other guys. Acta found reasons to start other guys. It doesn’t sound as personal any more.

by elsandito on Oct 19, 2010 6:10 PM EDT reply actions