Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Strikeforce: Cormier vs. Barnett Fight Video Highlights

With Lee Gone, Indians Should Call New York

As is being widely reported everywhere, Cliff Lee has been signed by the Philadelphia Phillies. This is big news for Philly fans, medium-sized news for Texas fans, and humongous news for Yankees fans (Warning: Schadenfreude ahead). That the Yankees lost out on a big ticket free agent they had explicitly targeted is unusual and will certainly get a full analysis in many corners of the web. At this point, though, many have immediately turned to deciphering what's next for New York. This is certainly a team that has made questionable moves to try to patch over deficiencies before and there's little question that starting pitching was a major deficiency for the 2010 New York Yankees. Their top five starting pitchers (Sabathia, Burnett, Hughes, Vazquez and Pettitte) postedr a 4.21 ERA in 887 IP. If you remove Sabathia, those numbers move to a 4.58 ERA in 650 IP. On top of this, Vazquez has left town and the pitchers who took extra starts last year were Ivan Nova, Sergio Mitre and Dustin Moseley. Nova might have some upside, and there's always the chance Chamberlain will be reconverted, but it's hard to believe the Yankees will stand pat. 

It appears that New York has already ruled out a trade for Zack Greinke and the best pitcher remaining on the free agent market, Carl Pavano, isn't going to play for the Yankees again. If New York wants to upgrade its rotation, it appears they'll have to do it with a trade market lacking Greinke, the clear best guy available. That's why the Indians, who are sitting high on one of baseball's most volatile stocks, should consider picking up the phone. 

Star-divide

Fausto Carmona's major league trajectory has been frustrating, bizarre and unsatisfying. After a brief, failed stint as an Indians bullpen pitcher in 2006, Carmona paired with Sabathia to anchor the 2007 rotation that carried the Indians to the ALCS. Carmona may well have been the best pitcher in the AL that year and the Indians front office acted as such, buying out his arbitration years on extremely team-friendly terms. In 2008 and 2009, Fausto went completely off the rails for Cleveland, pitching less than 126 innings both seasons and posting a combined ERA of 5.89. Many things seemed wrong with Fausto, from his weight to his mechanics, but the Indians were at least receiving his services cheaply: Carmona's combined salary in '08-'09 was $3.25 million.

Last year, for just a hair under $5 million, Carmona provided the Indians with a bounceback season, albeit one that looked better than it was. Carmona's 3.77 ERA seemed shiny at the time, but a league-wide dip in offense meant 3.77 was approximately league average (102 ERA+). Just as important, though, was Carmona's return to form as a rotation workhorse. He threw 210.1 inninngs last year and even completed four games. He'll be entering his age 26 season in 2011, supposedly clear of his injury nexus. 

2011 is the last season that Carmona has a guaranteed contract. He'll be paid $6.1 million next year and then in 2012, 2013 and 2014, his contract dictates club options of $7, $9, and $12 million dollars. Carmona's paltry salary will be the third highest on the Indians next season. Fausto's contract is an all-timer, an extremely flexible and club-friendly deal that certainly doesn't need to be moved. If the Indians don't plan to contend before 2014, they're doing something exceptionally wrong, so it's obvious that they could just hold onto Carmona with the intent of using him as the veteran anchor of a young team and, eventually, the veteran stopper on the next Cleveland playoff team. A return to Cy Young form seems unlikely for Carmona, but stranger things have happened. Fausto's performance has been nothing if not unpredictable and, while there's hope that 2010 represented a step forward, he's a pitcher who's performance over the next four seasons has the potential to horrify or delight. 

The combination of Carmona's 2010 and 2007 performance, along with his contract, makes him an attractive player on the trade market. This became obvious when Carmona's name kept popping up last summer, and FanGraphs ended up summarizing his ambiguous value: 

This is all going to seem like much ado about nothing, but my answer would have to be that it depends entirely on what you represent as Carmona’s true talent level. If the answer is above average with the chance to get better, then hey, those aforementioned packages aren’t too far off with that contract in hand. If it’s an enigma who puts together one good season for every two mediocre seasons, then something of lesser quality is the answer.

The fact that Carmona ended 2010 healthy and more or less in the black performance-wise means that, right now, he's trending away from "enigma." All this adds up to my request that Chris Antonetti kick the tires around the wreckage of the Yankees offseason. If New York is ready to deal, the Indians have exactly the kind of piece they need. Carmona's contract is less valuable to New York than it is to other teams, although the Yankees have recently made some noise about sticking to a budget. Even with their huge budget, Fausto's affordability would allow New York to still make plays for available relievers, an outfielder, or a catcher. Of course, the Indians have some of those to dangle as well. 

In nearly all scenarios, the Indians will hold onto Fausto and the Yankees will find their fit somewhere else. The Tribe barely has five starting pitchers: without Carmona, the rotation would probably break camp with five of Talbot, Masterson, Carrasco, Huff, Tomlin, Gomez and Laffey. Still, New York's farm system is loaded for the first time in years. BetancesBanuelosRomineSanchezPhelpsLaird and more all represent significant value without getting to Jesus Montero. It's worth a phone call. 

Comment 43 comments  |  0 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

More from Let's Go Tribe

Game 37: Indians 9, Mariners 3

May 2012 by Ryan - 63 comments

News and Notes: April 29, 2012

Apr 2012 by Ryan - 3 comments

Game 9: Indians 9, Mariners 8

Apr 2012 by Ryan - 58 comments

News and Notes: February 24, 2012

Feb 2012 by Ryan - 15 comments

Transactions: Indians Sign Kotchman

Feb 2012 by Ryan - 84 comments

Comments

Display:

As much as it would pain me to see Fausto in a Yankees uniform, I could completely support this.

by APV on Dec 14, 2010 10:22 AM EST reply actions  

2009 Fausto in a Yankees uniform would not be painful. We could only hope.

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Dec 14, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions  

Wow! Lee essentially paid $50 million to pitch for the Phillies instead of the Jackasses! Instant folk hero in my book!

As for dealing Fausto to the Yanks – sure, why not. Such is our fate to always be rebuilding. I’ve found it’s becoming much more fun to dream of the future feats of our prospects than to face the ugly reality when they turn mortal when they arrive.

If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.

by LeftyCatcher on Dec 14, 2010 10:23 AM EST reply actions  

This “giving up $50 million” idea is just not true.

Steel Nick

by nickjs21 on Dec 14, 2010 10:26 AM EST up reply actions  

What about the Rangers? They’re looking to contend and in need of a starting pitcher to replace Lee, and Carmona’s club-friendly contract would be even more attractive to them than the Yankees. I don’t really know anything about how many highly ranked prospects they have in comparison to the Yankees but I think they’d be interested in trading for Carmona if we don’t like what we get from the Yankees.

I really wouldn’t like to see Carmona traded, but if he can bring back a few good prospects then I’d certainly be listening to offers.

by Buckeye Brad on Dec 14, 2010 10:32 AM EST reply actions  

Their system is even better. The Rangers would be another good fit.

by afh4 on Dec 14, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions  

Fausto’s 2010 numbers against AL-East teams excluding the Yankees:

7 GS, 4-1, 2.45 ERA

by APV on Dec 14, 2010 10:35 AM EST reply actions  

READ THIS CASHMAN.

You are reading my signature.

by rolub on Dec 14, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Yanks appear to have landed Russell Martin

by APV on Dec 14, 2010 10:40 AM EST reply actions  

But I thought we signed Paul Phillips?

More seriously, when I see the phrase “fractured hip,” I know success can’t be too far off.

by APV on Dec 14, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions  

Is Cliff Lee a Folk Hero? Depends on whether or not you are a deer.

"If Brown is the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question." - Ryan

by woodsmeister on Dec 14, 2010 11:31 AM EST reply actions  

He is now in a starting rotation that could has four guys that could be “1’s” on a lot of teams. Maybe he consulted with LBJ.

by kennesawmountainwahoo on Dec 14, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions  

Considering that The Decision here was announced by a bunch of guys on Twitter, he didn’t consult enough.

by FredOx on Dec 14, 2010 2:37 PM EST up reply actions  

The Yankees rotation is a friggin’ mess. Forget Carmona, they should be calling us about Tomlin. And just think what they’d have offered Westbrook now, if he were still available.

by Jay on Dec 14, 2010 11:33 AM EST reply actions  

The best free agent pitcher on the market is now…Carl Pavano. Irony of ironies.

by Ryan on Dec 14, 2010 1:26 PM EST up reply actions  

They also should be talking to Philly about Blanton.

by Jay on Dec 14, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

I can just imagine the reaction to Blanton’s flyball/HR tendencies early in the season in NY…

by APV on Dec 14, 2010 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

whats the projected 2011 attendence- because such a move would seriously alienate the remaining 20% who support the team

by citrusvanilla on Dec 14, 2010 1:28 PM EST reply actions  

Really? Nobody comes to the games as it is. Are those few holdouts excited to watch Fausto? I’ve never gotten the sense that he was much of a fan favorite (for starters, he’s not good enough to be one).

by afh4 on Dec 14, 2010 1:30 PM EST up reply actions  

I know Fausto sucked for a long time, but that will never overshadow the greatest night of my life as an Indian fan. http://pictopia.com/perl/ptp/mlb/?ptp_photo_id=2946899

I will stupidly and wholeheartedly love Fausto forever, no matter how much he sucks. Until he signs with the Yankees.

by TheDanimal on Dec 14, 2010 3:05 PM EST up reply actions  

I will stupidly and wholeheartedly love

that

Fausto forever

by APV on Dec 14, 2010 3:10 PM EST up reply actions  

This is extremely crude, but, the Tribe averaged about 19,000 when Fausto pitched and about 16,500 when anyone else pitched. Again, extremely crude and probably meaningless.

by rockemsockem on Dec 14, 2010 4:01 PM EST up reply actions  

Pitching mostly on Fri/Sat/Sun and Opening Day boosts Fausto’s numbers

by The Grimace on Dec 14, 2010 7:02 PM EST up reply actions  

I’d hate to see Fausto go because I don’t know who is capable of leading this team in pitching. But if it needs to be done, then let’s do it.

NHL - Blues suck, Blackhawks suck, Kings suck, Pens suck, Stars suck, Flames suck, Ducks suck, Sharks suck.

NFL - Steelers suck, Bengals suck, Ravens suck.

MLB - Red Sox suck, White Sox suck, Yankees suck, Dodgers suck.

NBA - Heat suck, Celtics suck, Magic suck, Bulls suck, Pistons suck, Wizards suck, Knicks suck, Nets suck.

by Heavysoviet on Dec 14, 2010 1:42 PM EST reply actions  

I agree with the spirit of the piece, but I’m not convinced that we’d be selling all that high right now. Anyone can see and take into account the volatility risk we perceive. If he puts together a nice run in the next season, that factor will melt away pretty quickly and his “upside” will look a lot more plausible. We can afford to take that risk. I would be shocked if Fausto is traded before this season, but that day might not be too far off.

I hope that Fautso, wherever he is, is hard at work on his offseason conditioning.

by jhon on Dec 14, 2010 6:16 PM EST reply actions  

This seems spot-on, although as the piece notes that contract makes it very tempting to keep him around if he does end up pitching well.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Dec 14, 2010 6:41 PM EST up reply actions  

The contract immensely enhances his trade value, although less so for the Yankees.

Teams were asking about Fausto last season. I’m sure they still are.

by Jay on Dec 14, 2010 7:33 PM EST up reply actions  

The BlueJays were the ones always rumored to have interest, and they have the interesting starting pitching, with Romero, Morrow, and Cecil. Marcum was legit too, but they just dealt him. I’m not sure the Jays deal Morrow or Cecil for Carmona, because I’m not sure it makes them better, just more expensive. If they don’t want to deal Drabek, I’m not sure there’s a match from Cleveland’s perspective.

The Cardinals would be a good fit, but I don’t think they’re dealing top prospect Shelby Miller, at least not for Fausto.

by xrickx on Dec 14, 2010 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

My hesitation would be that it might help the yankees to do a trade like this, but there is always the hope that it would blow up in their faces too.

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Dec 14, 2010 6:21 PM EST reply actions  

I only trade Carmona to the Yankees if it’s a rape and pillage kind of deal (which isn’t likely) because:

1. I hate the Yankees and I want to, you know, rape and pillage them.
2. I always hold onto an irrational hope that, despite all expectations, a young Indians team, with everything coming together at the same time, rises up and competes and that’s much more likely in ’11 with Carmona than w/o.

So, rape and pillage or no deal.

by MickS on Dec 14, 2010 8:07 PM EST reply actions  

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2010/12/fausto-carmona-drawing-heavy-trade-interest.html

The fans would revolt, but hey no on is showing up anyway. Only if they blow us away with some talent we can use now; I say we keep him his contract is to good to trade unless its an absolute win.

by johio1 on Dec 15, 2010 2:18 PM EST reply actions  

For whatever it is worth, Raffy P, Joe Smith and Masterson are also mentioned in conjunction with the Red Sox.

by APV on Dec 15, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Can we stop with the fans will revolt meme, please? The Internet bulletin-board whining, cleveland.com, Dolan is Cheap crowd don’t come to the games already, have already revolted and will likely only be won back by a playoff race. Those people already have their minds made up and trading Fauso won’t drive them farther away from the team than they already are. It’s not like there are thousands of Indians fans out there saying “I’m on the edge of giving up on the Indians and if Fausto Carmona gets traded, well, that would be the final straw – I’m going to root for the Yankees.”

"If Brown is the answer, then you’re asking the wrong question." - Ryan

by woodsmeister on Dec 15, 2010 4:14 PM EST up reply actions   2 recs

This. Nothing is a better draw than success, and if the Indians are a success it will produce individual engaging success stories. As the proud owner of a personalized “Fausto” jersey, I think I can say that Fausto does not have any kind of special iconic status with the Cleveland fanbase. He is a guy who barely made our team last season.

A decision to trade Fausto would have to consider issues of the Indians competitiveness over the next several years, which are not easy issues to digest, but I don’t think in any way would relate to Fausto’s special appeal to fans.

by APV on Dec 15, 2010 4:30 PM EST up reply actions  

The fans are revolting.

by Jay on Dec 15, 2010 5:25 PM EST up reply actions  

Where is he at. I’ll set him straight.

by APV on Dec 15, 2010 5:28 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I think the earliest the Tribe should trade Carmona should be the July trade deadline, if not to wait next year’s offseason. If he can pull together another 200+ inning season, his value will skyrocket. And should he turn into half of what we thought he would after the end of 2007, we can dictate terms with just about anyone.

I just want to believe.

by mjmarble on Dec 17, 2010 6:36 AM EST reply actions  

Do the club options remain in tact if he is traded?

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Dec 17, 2010 2:14 PM EST reply actions  

Or intact even?

In the new Geico commercial, Marte sings "Let me be myself" on Wedge's front lawn (with the cavemen).

by V-Mart Shopper on Dec 17, 2010 2:14 PM EST up reply actions  

As far as I know. I don’t think his contract is like Sizemore’s.

by APV on Dec 17, 2010 2:46 PM EST up reply actions  

WOuld hate to deal Ice ….. but if we do, please not the JackWagons … anyone but them.

by talonk on Dec 18, 2010 12:10 AM EST reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Constantly updated Indians news, lots of in-depth analysis, live in-game discussions — and more fanatical and thoughtful Indians fans than every other web site combined.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Indians70sicon_small
Youkilis for Pure Rage
Avatard_new_small
Indians by the Numbers — #36
Topps1978-332f_small
Historical Timeline
427px-nap_lajoie_1913_small
Pick 6 Discussion
Topps1978-332f_small
Indians by the Numbers — #35
Avatard_new_small
Indians by the Numbers — #34
Small
Indians 2012 Player At Bat Music
Etat_small
Tribe Observations - 15 games In
Draft_lens6670022module54040272photo_1251768414louissockalexisicon4b_small
LGT, in the belly of the beast.
Tribe_cap_small
LGT Safeco Field Meet Up?

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Featured Poll

Poll
Will Matt LaPorta be on the opening day roster?
Yes
59 votes
No
140 votes

199 votes | Poll has closed

FanShots

Quick hits of video, photos, quotes, chats, links and lists that you find around the web.

Recent FanShots

2012 MLB Power Rankings - May 21st
Kerry Wood hangs 'em up
I did not like Cleveland Municipal Stadium. Like it? How could anyone like...
Garko gets another shot
Broadcaster Rankings (Radio): 30-21
Indians at Fenway don't drink beer; they watch TV.
Michael Brantley: A Studious 4-for-5 Night
Damon Makes His Case for HOF
Casey Blake to Retire
To longtoss, or not to longtoss

+ New FanShot All FanShots >

Yahoo_full_count

Managers

427px-nap_lajoie_1913_small Ryan

Dosequisman_small Jay

Editors

3444ant_black_small APV

47b8dd28b3127cceb64839d9746800000026102bauwjrq3za_small afh4