Talbot to Start, Laffey to Bullpen
Castro with the latest. Talbot to start. Laffey to the pen.
about 2 years ago
xrickx
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Yep. this was my gut when suddenly carcar was in the rotation race.
by Brick. on Mar 26, 2010 7:17 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I’m fine with this. I assume this means Laffey hops into the rotation if a pitcher tweeks an ankle or something. I also assume Huff is the overwhelming favorite for the fifth spot.
Torn on whether I want it to be CarCar so he rescues the Cliff trade, or Huff so he rescues the Mirabelli first-round draft picks.
by fleerdon on Mar 26, 2010 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think Huff alone could rescue the Mirabelli first rounders.
it always starts the same, with a boy and a girl and a hook and a game
Is it really not apparent I was joking, or am I just not that funny?
/lays awake staring at the ceiling fan
by fleerdon on Mar 26, 2010 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Until Cliff gets back off the DL with his latest abdominal injury, I’d say that trade doesn’t need any saving.
Wouldn’t the Cliff Lee now on the DL thing be a function of the Seattle-Philly Cliff Lee trade and not the Cleveland-Philly Lee trade?
"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags
by woodsmeister on Mar 27, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Only if you buy that we would have made the Seattle trade in the fall had we not made the Philadelphia trade in the summer.
by fleerdon on Mar 27, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Er, “only if you don’t buy…” Like, only if you think it was CarCar & Co. or bust, because the important thing was getting good value for Cliff while he was healthy.
by fleerdon on Mar 27, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
The Indians would have to clear room on the 40-man for Wright or Rivera, so that’s an issue. And here’s something else to consider: Wright has an out clause in his contract if he’s not on the Opening Day club, whereas Rivera’s out clause isn’t available to him until May 15. So he could potentially be sent to Triple-A Columbus. Lewis has one Minor League option year remaining, so he’s a Columbus candidate, as well.
Also from Castro.
I’m sure this has been mentioned on the site before, but I hadn’t heard the specifics of out clauses for these two yet. I’ve got to imagine it’s Jensen and Wright to start the year.
Gentle reminder to everyone who FanShots links … try to remember not to paste the URL for the front page of the site, but rather click through to the URL specific to the story you want to link. (I fixed this one.)
Also … go ahead and fill in some player tags. It’s fun!
I’m hopeful that Carrasco can take the last spot over Huff.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
I’m hopeful that Carrasco cantake the last spot over Huffnet us Chase Utley at the deadline.
... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...
But dude, what about Luis Valbuena? Come on, now.
it always starts the same, with a boy and a girl and a hook and a game
Can’t have him wasting service time in the majors, now, can we?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 7:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Isn’t that pretty much what he did last year? (ducking quickly)
"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags
by woodsmeister on Mar 27, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
You two both violated the sarcasm rule.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This is certainly surprising to me. I thought Laffey would be a much better option out of the rotation, but I suppose being without Wood for 6-8 weeks probably had some influence on the decision. I guess I’m hoping we’ll see Huff really build off of those last few starts in ‘09. Though I must say I’ve been a bit underwhelmed by his performance so far this spring. Hope these guys make me eat my words come June/July.
Anything in life is possible, except for skiing through revolving doors.
by MooneysRebellion on Mar 27, 2010 9:27 AM EDT reply actions
Starting to think that the The Front Office doesn’t like Laffey. He continues to get yanked around. I think Huff’s results will be slightly better than Sowers, I hope it is better than that, but I doubt it. On the other hand, if its Laffey to the pen to handle the 7th and Carrasco starting and Huff to the minors, now I could get on that bus. I think atleast Carrasco has some upside. Anways, just me two cents.
I’m starting to think that the rest of organization is beginning to realize what is patently obvious; Aaron Laffey is, at best, an average pitcher. His walk and hit rates have done nothing but increase while his k rate has plateaued. His GB% dipped below 50 last year and his xFIP went up over 5.00. What has confused me for three years is the insistence that Laffey was anything other than 4/5 material at best.
and he’s shown that he is effective out of the pen…
by stuart dean on Mar 27, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think anyone disagreed much with that, though I think his ceiling is #3 starter. And it’s not like good #4 starters aren’t valuable.
Plus, the team doesn’t have much to work with. If Carrasco makes the rotation, fine, but compare Laffey to Huff and the upside difference is negligible.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
Maybe we’re not insisting he’s more than an average pitcher, we just recognize the value of an average pitcher. A pitcher with a career 98+ ERA is pretty important to a major league team when he comes cheap. It can’t be emphasized enough that Jeremy Sowers has been given 400 innings by this organization.
That said, Huff has a higher ceiling than that (I think), and hopefully beginning this season. I like this decision—there will be enough innings from the long relief/spot starter for Laffey, and they’re probably a better team right now for having all three on the roster.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
That should read 98 ERA+, of course.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 11:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Granted.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
i agree. if there is going to be a lefty in the rotation, it should be laffey. huff really doesn’t do anything for me.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Mar 27, 2010 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Huff is a far more interesting pitcher than Laffey. I’m a big Laffey fan, and Laffey may indeed be the better bet to perform well for the first part of the season, but Huff is really a much higher ceiling guy going forward.
i disagree. you’re basing this on his minor league strikeout rates, right? i’m just not convinced that huff’s stuff translates well at the major league level. don’t get me wrong—i don’t think either pitcher has a particularly high ceiling, but in my estimate laffey is much closer to reaching his than huff.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Mar 27, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Minor league K rates. Minor league BB rates. Pedigree and draft status. Pretty much across the board.
Way disagree. Both have average at best stuff. Huff’s changeup is offset by Laffey’s sinker.
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
I can see how, from a repertoire standpoint, Huff has something approaching an actual mix of pitches, whereas Laffey’s sort of got the sinker and some modestly effective crudballs to back it up.
I enjoy watching Laffey pitch, but given his injury history and the current staff, he seems like an awfully good fit as a reliever.
by fleerdon on Mar 27, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Huff is going to show something this year.
by Gradyforpresident on Mar 27, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Is anyone starting to get the vibe that Toregas is going to break camp as our catcher with Marson and Santana splitting C/DH ABs in Columbus?
Toregas just seems to be getting an increasing percentage of the ‘A’ game playing time of late. Which means a larger portion of the work with the pitchers who are going to break camp with the team.
Hmm, the trend does seem to be going in that direction. That would be a very odd result indeed.
by stuart dean on Mar 27, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Hadn’t noticed; good eye. Is there a possible service time benefit for Marson? I actually really like Toregas, but man alive is Marson ever a better hitter.
In other news, Lou Marson might be really good.
by fleerdon on Mar 27, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I was gonna ask the service time question too, but figured I could remember where to look it up eventually.
... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...
Now we’re worried about our backup catcher?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
“People with obsessive-backup-catcher-disorder (OBCD) have persistent, upsetting thoughts (obsessions) and use rituals (compulsions) to control the anxiety these thoughts produce. Most of the time, the rituals end up controlling them. For example, if people are obsessed with OCERA/CERA, they may develop a compulsion to wash their hands over and over again. If they develop an obsession with stolen bases, they may comb their hair compulsively in front of a mirror. Performing such rituals is not pleasurable.” Just try to be understanding.
He’s not even that, yet. But if you’re willing to manage Valbuena’s clock, given that we’re going to finish lastest of the last this year, why not — if it’s practical — Marson’s? Lou plays the harder position and is younger and for all we know is a better hitter.
by fleerdon on Mar 27, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions
He has basically one job, as I see it—to keep them from having to start Torregas four months while Santana does his arb-clock penance for four months. Then, he’s a backup catcher—a good one, granted, with walks and contact ability and good defense—but we’re penny pinching now. He’s a backup catcher. Is half a season of Wyatt Torregas worth the difference between the $500,000 he’d make as a pre-arb vs. the $750,000 he’ll make in arbitration?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Which is a long way of saying: Santana’s service time saves real money. Valbuena, less. Marson, nearly nothing.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
You know, I’d append to all this that I was asking, not angling. Is there a service time benefit? You think, no? Fair.
Pretty flatly disagree with you on your assessment of Marson’s ceiling, irrespective of the service time.
by fleerdon on Mar 27, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Both Marson and Toregas control the running game better than Vic or Shoppach. Marson could easily be a steady 760-800 ops starting catcher for many years, with good defense and athleticism. Not bad value at all.
Toregas fits the backup catcher role better – good D but will never be anything much offensively in the big leagues.
I’m pretty excited for another 3 or 4 years of overvaluing our backup catch. Anyone else get the feeling that’s coming?
by jakesinger777 on Mar 27, 2010 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Marson could easily be a steady 760-800 ops starting catcher for many years, with good defense and athleticism.
I hate to be rude (I don’t, I love it), but this is patently absurd. Of all the AL qualifiers who played a single inning at catcher, only Mauer and Martinez had an OPS over 760. To say that Marson could “easily” be the third best hitting catcher in the league for many years and provide good defense is a ridiculous statement.
Everybody should get ice cream every day.
by Joel D on Mar 27, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Also….to envision Marson SLG’ing anything over .400 just seems silly. Which means you have to anticipate an OBP of .400 to get to that .800 mark…not too likely.
He’s still young, still hasn’t shown what kind of ISO he’ll settle into. But I did say .800 was the upper reach of his projected ops.
I believe you threw out a .300/.365/.385 line for Marson as a reasonable if optimistic line, back when you were profiling position prospects. That’s pretty much in the same range I mentioned above.
Don’t see how absurd it is. Marson’s a good young catcher that throws out a lot of runners. He also has a tendency to get on base, at a .360 clip over his minor league career and his brief stint in the majors.
That alone makes a good backup catcher a starter. Marson’s a good prospect made better by the position he plays – I have no idea if he’ll have a long major league career, but its “easy” to make the same projections that have been made for him the last couple years, which he’s done nothing but live up to so far.
i’m really not trying to pile on here. but dude, marson has a career minor league OPS of only 755. i would agree with you that he might be a starting-caliber catcher due to his defense and his on-base skills, but let’s not get too optimistic about what he’s going to produce at the plate.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Mar 28, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
Well we’ll see, he’ll probably get at least 300 at bats this year with Cleveland. If he bats .250 I wouldn’t call it a long odds bet for him to reproduce the .730 ops he did last September.
I would, too. Marson has shown a pretty consistent minor league separation between AVG and OBP of .080-.100, reflecting his overall solid plate discipline. Assuming that doesn’t regress at all at the big league level (which is probably generous), that would put him in the .340 OBP range. He’d pretty much have to put up a career high ISO with a .250 batting average to reach a .730 OPS. Assuming his walks remain steady, Marson is kind of dependent on his singles falling in.
Wait, so you are now seriously defending your proposition that Lou Marson is the third best hitting catcher in the game? You honestly think he is Martinez/Mauer material? Or, more to the point, you think he will hit markedly better in the majors than he did in the minors?
Argue with me!
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 7:00 PM EDT up reply actions
/pushes Lego pirate ship around on sheet of blue carpeting
/looks up
Hmm?
by fleerdon on Mar 27, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Their clocks are in very different places in the “year.”
Valbuena is two weeks away from gaining us an extra year of control, three months from pushing back arbitration. And he’s not all that polished either.
Marson is already pretty well optimized. You gain nothing on service time from him unless you’re prepared to have him spend less than 50 days in the majors this season. I doubt very much that’s the Indians’ intention.
Shoppach ended up with less optimized clock than Marson, which I think is a fair indication of how much the Indians are going to sweat this with a guy who is expected to be a contributor, but not a core player. That is, they’re not.
Valbuena is, in my view, a little better bet to become a core player, but the bigger difference is that he’s so close to an extra year of control, it’s just stupid not to grab it. But it was even more stupid last season, as I’ve noted before.
I don’t see any reason not to keep Valbuena in AAA for those three months. I’m hoping this will be our play.
Knowing this, I hate that the Indians insist on rostering an “futility” infielder rather than a utility infielder. Why Anderson Hernandez? Brian Bixler? I was sad to see Kevin Frandsen go to the Red Sox for nothing. The guy can hit. Why not have a utility infielder with some upside? Instead, we go with these guys who offer nothing.
I believe Valbuena should spend April in AAA. But give me Grudzielanek in his place, because these other utility infielders add nothing.
"futility" infielder rather than a utility infielder
Might be a distinction without a difference. I don’t think Grudz has the kind of maybe-trade-me upside that Branyan has. Younger infielders with upside are called “prospects,” and you want them playing every day at one level or another.
I’ve decided not to worry about Valbuena one way or the other. There’s a good chance he solves the problem himself, ala Asdrubal in 2008. As you said, he’s not that polished.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I should specify the two weeks. I don’t really want to see him in AAA for three months for arbitration.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Mar 27, 2010 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
lee in ’08 dude. there is always hope.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Mar 27, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
I won’t bother pondering Fausto as a Cy Young candidate again, but Cliff mentioned in several interviews that some injuries just take a really long time to come back from.
by fleerdon on Mar 27, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d take 30+ starts like this from Fausto(!)
Tribe in 2010!! Maybe.
by indiansfan20062000 on Mar 27, 2010 5:37 PM EDT up reply actions
i think rostering is going to be an issue
rivera to AAA since his clause is for later
wright and lewis to pen – wright taking ambriz roster spot
brantley to AAA
branyan and wood to 15 DL
if kearns or grudz make the team, and so does hernandez, toregas seems like the only name i’d want to take off the 40
so if they do want to send valbuena down, kearns is harder to make room for. if they don’t, either grudz doesn’t make the team or they designate hernandez
i think
Can they option him instead of DL him? I thought an injured player can’t be optioned down to the minors.
Not sure how this works for a player injured during the offseason.
I do know that whether he’s been optioned has no bearing on whether he’s on the 60-day DL.
I think you DFA him before he’s done rehabbing. Why make him a little tempting for a team without a fifth starter that needs one right away?
I think we’re sorta saying the same thing. “running out of time on max allowed rehab stint but not ready yet, no choice but to dfa”
by Brick. on Mar 27, 2010 10:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...
by westbrook on Mar 27, 2010 7:43 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
That’s an amazing photo. Looks like a comic book scene.
by jakesinger777 on Mar 27, 2010 10:11 PM EDT up reply actions
My god I hate Gary Sheffield
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Mar 30, 2010 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Branyan out opening day:
http://castrovince.mlblogs.com/archives/2010/03/bad_back_to_hold_branyan_back.html
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