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Game Five: Tigers 4, Indians 2

Mitch Talbot gave up four runs in his Indians debut, going five innings despite having to throw 38 pitches in the first inning and allowing 11 base runners. Mitch struggled to throw strikes in that first inning, and was very fortunate to escape the inning having just allowed two runs.

Despite some poor aesthetics, it's really difficult to criticize the pitching thus far when in four of the Indians' five games, the pitchers have given up five runs or fewer. Normally, in the American League, that's right around a team's offensive runs per game. At some point, the chances that each poor offensive game is due to a good pitching performance becomes more unlikely. Especially in a game like today's where Jeremy Bonderman went just five innings and three of the Tigers' key relievers were held of the action. A key moment came in the top of the eighth; with the Indians down just two runs, Tigers left-handed Fu-Te Ni hit two consecutive left-handed hitters, bringing up Travis Hafner and Jhonny Peralta (who faced Ryan Perry), both of whom went down swinging.

The Indians' bullpen again did very well, holding the Tigers scoreless for the last four innings of the game. Unfortunately, like yesterday, the Indians were already behind by that time.

20100410_indians_tigers_0_75_lbig__medium

via www.fangraphs.com


Highest WPA Lowest WPA
Shin-Soo Choo .081 Mitch Talbot -.173
Joe Smith .041 Matt LaPorta -.127
Jensen Lewis .016 Jhonny Peralta -.106

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Comments

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Even for all the K’s….this team can sure use Branyan’s pop.

"Ok everyone listen up! I've just invited Dave to suck it!"

by GoTribe028 on Apr 10, 2010 9:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Ah damn it….I guess I set that one up!

"Ok everyone listen up! I've just invited Dave to suck it!"

by GoTribe028 on Apr 10, 2010 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

So semi-serious question as I sit buzzed right now. And I know we’ve been through this and back. Why is Marte sitting behind Peralta right now?

I get Peralta drove in the tying run in U.S. Cellular on Thursday… way the f to go Jhonny. He turned it around and was more or less directly responsible for yesterday’s loss with his butcher work at third. Manny Acta seems on board about Marte’s talents as an above average defender at 1B and 3B. I think we all agree on this site that Marte is clearly the better third basemen defensively. We’ve got a bunch of groundball pitchers. Marte has already flashed the leather a bit. What is Peralta bringing to the table at this point? Do we think he’s driving us closer to the division lead than Marte? Do we really really think we’re going to get anything as good as we did for Garko or Betancourt at the deadline for this guy, even if he channels his best year, which was 5 freaking years ago?

Marte probably isn’t a part of the team’s future, but we sure as hell know that Johnny isn’t. And Jhonny, above everything else, you curse us with your durability.

by cheech99 on Apr 10, 2010 10:09 PM EDT reply actions  

You’re directing this at the biggest bunch of Marte supporters you’re gonna find. But it’s only been five games. I give Acta/Peralta the benefit of the doubt at this point. We’ve got to showcase him if we plan on getting rid of him.

... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...

by westbrook on Apr 10, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’m not gonna lie, I had the same “Marte at Third” argument flash through my mind earlier…

by Gradyforpresident on Apr 10, 2010 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Believe me, I go back to the Inside the Comp days with Ryan. I know the Marte love around here. But I still submit that showcasing Peralta won’t bring back anything worthwhile.

by cheech99 on Apr 10, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is a fair question. The Indians may be dead set on trading Peralta this year before the deadline simply to get something (anything really, salary relief, a Pino type pitching prospect, whatever) for him. The other issue may be that they cut Marte when Branyan returns. I’m not sure what happens upon Branyan’s return to tell you the truth, the economic driven choice would be to demote Brantley, but who replaces Brantley? LaPorta? who is looking fairly hobbled while he is still recovering from offseason sugary? Kearns can move into the starting spot, but it doesn’t seem likely that they gave Brantley the job if they were planning on demoting him as soon as Branyan returned. So it might just be Marte who gets the ax when Branyan comes back.

by hans on Apr 10, 2010 10:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t think the Indians are playing for anything but salary relief in trades this year.

RE: Cutting Marte, I don’t disagree with you necessarily, but I don’t see why they’d do it soon if they haven’t done it yet. Being a plus defender at the corners and a right-handed hitter is making him pretty useful at the moment.

by fleerdon on Apr 10, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, if Peralta hits like he did two years ago, it’s not much of a decision. And nearing age 28, it’s not unlikely that he could do that again. Right now, he’s awful. He hasn’t driven a ball all year, and he doesn’t look like he’s about to in the near future. He just gets into these ruts where he’s late on virtually every fastball and he’s out in front of virtually every off-speed pitch. All hitters hit these ruts, but it seems like Peralta’s last longer.

I will say I bet you see Marte at third base Sunday. Peralta against Verlander isn’t much of a fight at the moment.

by TribeJay on Apr 10, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

Peralta did drive one ball, his lone XBH. It was pretty well smoked to the gap. But I agree, he’s a terrible matchup vs Verlander. There are some Brett Anderson highlights on mlb.com and the final one they show is a Verlanderian Curve that Peralta just stands there and then tosses his bat away on.

... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...

by westbrook on Apr 10, 2010 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

check me on the lone XBP. he has two doubles. I don’t remember the other one.

... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...

by westbrook on Apr 10, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I’m not including that. He just slapped at it and plugged the gap. Caught it on the good part of the bat, but I don’t count that as a “drive.” His other double was a soft liner over the third baseman.

When I said he’s not a good matchup with Verlander, I was talking about now. Later in the year, that might change.

by TribeJay on Apr 11, 2010 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

That ball went all the way to the wall; I’d say it was driven pretty well.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Apr 11, 2010 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’m going more by the swing than the result. When Peralta squares it up on the bat, it rockets out there more than your average hitter…that’s his true talent.

by TribeJay on Apr 11, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hey, TJ, have you seen any of Stomp’s innings yet? Thoughts? I could go for some Good Jensen Lewis. I’ll say this for him: he throws where they’ll swing at it. He may not always be effective, but he is not a pansy.

by fleerdon on Apr 11, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

“Not a pansy” is a great nickname!

Didn’t see his outing yesterday, but from what I’ve seen, he’s throwing his fastball by guys…haven’t really looked at the velocity yet, as the White Sox gun seemed to be on the low end. I think his changeup looks a bit better. Hey, his K rate was still pretty good last year IIRC. If he locates well, maybe he can have some semblance of success. I’ve always liked him better than others, but I think at this point you’re hoping against hope that his velocity will return to where it was in ‘07. But as you say, he’ll generally throw strikes, and considering the issues that some of his bullpen mates are having, it wouldn’t surprise me to see him pitch his way into a more important role.

by TribeJay on Apr 11, 2010 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tyler, I had another thought on Pansy.

I think a good comp is David Riske…both had average fastballs on the gun, but both have had some level of success because their delivery hid the ball well and hitters reacted to 88 as if it was 94. But there’s not much margin for error. Any loss in velocity or location leads to the home run ball.

Underpants was mentioning that Lewis watched a lot of video this winter and thought he had figured out some mechanical things. Early on, it does appear he has better command and maybe more velocity, though I think I’ll wait a few outings to look at Fangraphs to draw any conclusions.

by TribeJay on Apr 12, 2010 8:09 AM EDT up reply actions  

This comparison makes a lot of sense to me, I like it.

by Roger Dorn on Apr 12, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

And yet he still sucks?

And I should care, why exactly?

by Jay on Apr 12, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can care if you want to. If you don’t care, I don’t care that you don’t care.

That sets my own personal record for using “care” in a post. And you probably don’t care about that, either.

Personally, I think he’s looked better. But I’m waiting for more than one week into the season to think it will matter.

by TribeJay on Apr 12, 2010 8:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think if Peralta continues to struggle for the entire month of April, this starts to become a legitimate topic. Right now it’s a bit premature.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Apr 11, 2010 1:00 AM EDT up reply actions  

Peralta has always seemed to struggle in April, though (don’t have time to look up the exact numbers, sorry). So I would think he’d struggle this April as well.

I wouldn’t be “stunned beyond belief” if they benched Peralta for Marte, but I’d be really, really surprised. I don’t think the organization (even without Wedge) views Marte the same way he’s viewed here. I would bet that some in the organization refer to him as ol’ .216/.272/.352. I think they know he has talent and they’re keeping him around in case something clicks or there is an injury, but I think they value Peralta much more than Marte.

I do think that Marte could be used as a bridge from Peralta to Chisenhall, if they are able to deal Jhonny at some point this year or in the offseason. That’s another reason to keep Marte.

by TribeJay on Apr 11, 2010 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

Career .680 OPS in April, his worst month indeed, which he follows up with an .848 May, his best month.

by YoDaddyWags on Apr 11, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

And that combines to a .760 OPS, just about his career mark. He is what he is.

by YoDaddyWags on Apr 11, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

Clearly they don’t, but I think after him finally having a lot of success in AAA, eyes were opened.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Apr 11, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

Don’t forget: Jhonny had a lot of success in the minors as well (International League player of the year in 2004). And he’s not that much older (born May 1982, Marte born in November 1983).

You could make a case for Jhonny’s being a better player, even now.

by odradek on Apr 11, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

It would certainly be a legitimate argument. I just see think since Marte’s upside as a hitter is higher, they would take a chance on him if Peralta keeps faltering. It’s obvious that Peralta is no longer part of this team’s future, but if Marte can hit like he did last year, he might be.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Apr 11, 2010 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s a good point. But you might not get a better player. Just a cheaper one.

by odradek on Apr 12, 2010 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Can someone please explain the three straight lefties thing to me? I don’t even care if you’re snarky and you call me names, I need a legitimate explanation than cannot be immediately refuted. I can’t think of a reason why this could possibly be beneficial to the offense and it’s causing me to lose sleep. Anybody? Anything?

by jefftribe on Apr 10, 2010 10:36 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

Well Choo isn’t particulary bad against lefties, he had a .825 OPS vs. them last season in 214 PA. It might just be easier to say who can hit lefties better than Choo that you can place in that spot?

by hans on Apr 10, 2010 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess I just wish we had a right-handed hitter to bat second so Grady could hit third and maybe LaPorta fourth, before Choo, so Grady isn’t seeing a lefty in every at-bat after the fifth inning. But with so many lefties, no lineup without at least two of them in a row in the middle makes much sense. And we’re not exactly dealing with Utley-Howard-Ibanez here, so we’re very susceptible to specialists.

by jefftribe on Apr 10, 2010 11:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Hafner is our lone power threat at the moment. Where do you have him here? Sixth?

... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...

by westbrook on Apr 10, 2010 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, it’s stupid. Which speaks to my point that there is no good solution. There just has to be something better than what we’re going with now.

by jefftribe on Apr 11, 2010 12:38 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

How is Hafner our lone power threat?

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Apr 11, 2010 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

He’s got our only home run and I don’t think anyone else has even hit one halfway up the wall. Notice I said “at the moment”.

... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...

by westbrook on Apr 11, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

Both LaPorta and Sizemore are outslugging him.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Apr 11, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

And the problem’s not going to go away when all our lefty-hitting prospects start graduating (… We’re either going to need to find a workable platoon solution, or we’re going to need lefties who can hit lefties.

by fleerdon on Apr 11, 2010 12:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

By who do you mean by with “all our lefty-hitting prospects?” Chisenhall? Santana is pretty much even on both sides.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Apr 11, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wegz.

by afh4 on Apr 13, 2010 2:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

It sucks when they face a tough lefty late in the game, but you have to look at it in a broader context. If those three guys are truly your best hitters, then it doesn’t really make sense to break them up just to break them up. Yeah, it sucks when you see that in the 8th, but what about the situation earlier in the game, when the right-handed starter doesn’t feel as inclined to pitch around Sizemore or Choo to get to the right-handed bat right after them? If Choo comes up with two outs and a base open, and if Hafner is better this year (which I think he will be), then it’s not an automatic intentional walk. It would be if Peralta was coming up.

And frankly, in 2009 when a common lineup was Grady leading off, Choo hitting 3rd, and Hafner 5th, the Tribe saw a parade of lefties coming out of the bullpen anyway. So basically, the only benefit you got from breaking the lefties up was getting Peralta to hit against a lefty instead of a righty. Is that enough to offset the scenario I discussed above? I don’t know. But you just can’t ignore the benefits of the lineup in early-game situations when discussing this topic.

by TribeJay on Apr 10, 2010 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

To me it’s not just a Grady-Choo-Hafner problem though, but even going to the #9 hole with Brantley. They’ll bring in a lefty in to face Brantley, let Asdrubal have his fun batting righthanded, then have Grady/Choo/Hafner all face the lefty.

And this ends up hurting Grady more than the rest of them, with the biggest left-right split of the group. If we really have any hope of Grady finding his former success, we’ve got to put him in the best position to succeed, and to me that means putting Branyan in the 3-hole and moving Choo down (or Pronk down).

by supermarioelia on Apr 11, 2010 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

If LaPorta goes on the DL replaced by Branyan, this becomes a bigger problem, not less of one.

... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...

by westbrook on Apr 11, 2010 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have never looked at this seriously, but I’m possessed of the notion that a lot of left-handed relievers sort of blow. They’re not all Thornton. I’d love to give our lineup another crack at Ni, for example.

I also think there’s a series-long conversation to be had, here. How many left-handed relievers do we face? How many left-handed starters? How often? How good are they? I’m not trying to argue for or against any one position, but it does strike me as the kind of issue on which we see mainly the tree — LHRP facing meat of the lineup in the 7th — and could very easily miss the forest.

by fleerdon on Apr 11, 2010 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

left-handed relievers in 2009 w/at least 20 IP

and

right handed relievers

Just taking a quick look at the numbers, I’d say you’re right—if you’re going to be facing a left-handed reliever, all other things being equal it’s more likely that he’s going to suck than if you were facing a righty. It’s probably just another product of scarcity—just like mediocre lefties can always find their way into major league rotations, standards for left-handed relievers are lower as well.

What I want to know is whether breaking up the lefty block really makes sense for tactical reasons. On average, how many more relievers are your opponents going to burn through per game if you, say, drop Hafner or bat Choo 5th instead of 3rd? To me, if any advantage does exist to breaking up the lefties, it’s in pushing matchup-obsessed managers to make (possibly) excessive pitching changes.

If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 11, 2010 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Like Ozzie Guillen. Or Leyland. Neither of whom we’ve pushed to make moves.

by supermarioelia on Apr 11, 2010 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree with this. We shouldn’t move our best hitters out of the top of the order because we fear some mediocre LOOGY.

by Roger Dorn on Apr 11, 2010 6:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

you need a righty better against lefties than the lefties enough to cancel out the lefties against the righties. i don’t think that exists right now.

by Brick. on Apr 10, 2010 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re probably right. I just have a difficult time being rational about this team. And while I usually come here to read insightful comments from the smartest Indians fans, sometimes I need to use you all to talk me off the ledge. Five games is five games, but I can’t really look at the big picture when our offense has been mostly stagnant, especially in the last four innings of every game because we’re not on the good side of the matchups.

by jefftribe on Apr 10, 2010 11:16 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

we’re not hitting right now. things don’t change much if laporta is our cleanup hitter.

by Brick. on Apr 10, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Probably not. Thank you. You’ve opened my mind with no name-calling or snark. Much appreciated.

by jefftribe on Apr 10, 2010 11:22 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Disagree. We’ve been through this. We’re not replacing a lefty with a righty. We’re using all the same hitters, we’re just not letting the other team get the platoon advantage so easy. TribeJay lays out the right question above. I just don’t agree with the answer: I can’t accept that Hafner is so good that we can’t put him fifth.

by dgcambridge on Apr 11, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

His point though, which is correct, is that even with Hafner 5th, they still bring a lefty reliever and let him face whoever we stick 4th, because that hypothetical righty 4th batter isn’t good enough to deter the opposing manager from letting the lefty stay in until he faces Hafner at 5.

by Roger Dorn on Apr 11, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right, so we make the opposing manager decide. Maybe he does and maybe he doesn’t. If he sticks with that lefty until Hafner, then the righty 4th gets to face him. But I’m getting very repetitive at this point (even more than usual), so I’ll stop talking about it.

by dgcambridge on Apr 12, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

but it does strike me as the kind of issue on which we see mainly the tree — LHRP facing meat of the lineup in the 7th — and could very easily miss the forest

.

by Brick. on Apr 12, 2010 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

The forest being the importance of keeping Hafner as the cleanup hitter?

Dammit, I said that I’d stop. OK, starting….now.

by dgcambridge on Apr 12, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes. I think the choice is easy. Leave the lefty in to face Peralta, if Jhonny beats you then tough luck. Make Peralta beat you though and not someone else.

by Roger Dorn on Apr 12, 2010 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

That does seem like the right strategy.

by Jay on Apr 12, 2010 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

I know who can bat third! TREVOR CROWE! And it can save us money a few years down the road!

... Paul Hoynes is a really great guy ...

by westbrook on Apr 10, 2010 11:30 PM EDT reply actions  

You know something? CarCar needs to stop goofing off and make a major league pitcher of himself. I’d like to pretend that there’s a chance to make something salvageable of this season without him, but I don’t genuinely believe that. He’s the real talent here, and it’s time he put AAA behind him.

by fleerdon on Apr 11, 2010 8:43 AM EDT reply actions   1 recs

For what it’s worth, the Clippers have their first dime-a-dog night of the season Monday. A great time to catch a look at Santana on the cheap before he’s up with the big club.

Everybody should get ice cream every day.

by Joel D on Apr 11, 2010 8:47 AM EDT reply actions  

Ten cent hot dogs? Can an excitotoxin-laden fan-induced forfeit be far behind?

by YoDaddyWags on Apr 11, 2010 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d just like to tip my hat to Kelly Shoppach.

by gte619n on Apr 11, 2010 11:04 AM EDT reply actions  

So, we suck again, huh?

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 11, 2010 12:38 PM EDT reply actions  

Yeah, but 2-3 at this point? I’ll take it. Though the pitching will clearly most likely only get worse from here.

by Voltaire on Apr 11, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

This cannot be overstated.

--
History is made at night. Character is what you are in the dark.

by vbc3 on Apr 11, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Shades of Andrew’s mid-2008 Borowskisplosion: “So. This is happening?”

by fleerdon on Apr 11, 2010 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good thing I haven’t paid for any sort of MLB package on cable or internet.

I’m gonna pull a Shapiro and evaluate things after 45 games.

by NickFantana on Apr 11, 2010 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not even Gameday Audio?

I have no understanding of people who won’t pay for that.

by Jay on Apr 11, 2010 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I probably will. The free preview ends today so I’ll probably pony up.

I also need to get motivated to see if I can rig an antenna that will allow me to receive WTAM. I’m only four hours away.

by NickFantana on Apr 12, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

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