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The 2010 Indians: Why You Should Watch

Sometimes you have to lead with your shoulder

Just over a week ago, Jay put together a fantastic, and fantastically depressing, piece entitled, "The 2010 Indians: Waiting For Next Year."  Jay's opening line puts the whole piece in context:

I might as well call this one "Why We'll Lose" -- and there won't be a counterpoint tomorrow, either.  Not from me, anyway.

As I read Jay's argument I saw it resting on two fundamental observations, the overwhelming inequality of baseball in the 21st century and a top-down failure of Indians leadership, and leading to one obvious conclusion - the Indians are slated for mediocrity with catastrophic failure a much greater possibility than unexpected triumph. I am predisposed to be sympathetic to this view.  Indeed, I myself have expressed many of the same views.  In our "Fire Everyone" series last season, this was my closing line in a piece on Eric Wedge:

The decision to fire Wedge now is the right one, but it is in itself a failure, although it is a failure not of Wedge, but of Shapiro.

Despite this, I reject Jay's argument.  I sympathize with it, but I find it reads more like a diary entry from someone recovering from a profound trauma rather than a rational argument from a necessarily irrational fan of sport in general and the Cleveland Indians in particular.  2010 may very well suck for the Indians.  In fact, it is very likely destined for mediocrity (even prior to the destruction inspiring first week).  In more words than is necessary, I am prepared to argue that the Indians leadership remains a reason more for optimism than pessimism, and that structural inequalities within baseball lie outside the arena of "how do I enjoy this season" type questions.

Star-divide

The question of the Indians leadership is complex.  Like Jay, I feel the evaluation of the front office and coaching organization of a baseball team is several steps above my pay-grade.  But I will take the same tact Jay took in his argument against Shapiro & Co.  Back in his "Fire Everyone: Mark Shapiro" piece, Jay set up his metric for evaluating the organization as follows:

Having said that, I can tell you why Shapiro should be fired in one word:  Talent.

The most fundamental reason you should enjoy this season while it is here, enjoy watching the games, enjoy following the boxscores, enjoy day-dreaming about possibilities, rests on one word: Talent.

The Indians have as much young talent in the organization right now as they have had anytime in my lifetime.  Most likely they have more of it.  This does not mean they will inevitably develop a lineup laced with Hall of Fame caliber talent as they did in the 90s with Belle, Ramirez and Thome.  Contrary to Chuck's assertions, those kind of low probability events, the acquisition and development of one of baseball's all-time greats, simply can't be predicted or expected.  When it occurs, it is a product as much of chance as of positive underlying fundamentals.  If you do a Lexis-Nexis search of "future hall of famer", the resulting trainwreck of failures is almost more impressive than the achievements of those who were properly identified.  Indeed, it doesn't even change the reality that the Indians are right now slated for mediocrity.  But mediocrity comes in many forms, and the Indians are without any doubt the good kind of mediocre.

At its best, mediocrity in baseball is slow death.  From a fans perspective, it is being told you have six months left of life and those six months are going to have more bad days then good days.  Most of the time.  But the Indians mediocrity is more a function of unrealized and uncertain futures than of mediocre talent.  While he is currently situated firmly in our bullpen, we are not a team composed of Jamey Wrights.  We have a team that might be more likely to experience catastrophic failure than stunning triumph this year, but the reality is it is a team whose ceiling is stunning triumph.  Stunning triumph achieved on the backs of youth.

In some ways it is surprising that Jay - Jay who continually emphasizes the importance of age and position - seems to be missing the fact that the Indians are blessed with young talent in the right places. We have an in his prime, All-Star, poster-boy CFer.  We have an in his prime, 5-tool, unrecognized All-Star RFer.  We have a pre-prime, on the cusp of All-Star status SS.  We have a 24-year old starting second baseman (and if he doesn't pan out his replacement is 25).  We have a just turned 24-year old superstar in the making catcher, just waiting to unleash himself on AL pitching staffs.  We have a true, first round scouting, makeup and performance guy at first base, displaced from LF only because of the 22-year old who is playing there.  And then there are a few guys floating around the minors...a lumbering lumberjack with a bat, and a sweet-swinging, scout drool inducing 3B.  And we have pitching...

It may not be in fruition at the major league level (and based on the first week of results it is not), but the Indians are loaded with pitching talent.  In the comments to Jay's original piece I made the comparison between the current Indians team and the 1993 version.  As I said above, we are unlikely to recreate that offensive talent.  Likewise, as the discussion below will make clear, we are unlikely to sign the complementary pieces (Murray, Justice, Alomar) that made those 90s teams so fun to watch.  But as someone who came of age during the 90s era of Indians baseball, what we have now that we never had then, is pitching.  Layers of pitching.

Baseball is a game full of paradoxes.  One of them is that while there is no such thing as a pitching prospect, good pitching staffs don't develop without pitching prospects.  And typically, lots of pitching prospects.  From Columbus to Mahoning Valley this season, the Indians minor league affiliates are loaded with pitching talent.  We witnessed two of the most recent acquisitions, 2009 draft 1st rounder Alex White and 3rd rounder Joe Gardner, debut impressively.  And the thing about these pitching prospects is they aren't the high achieving, scout-hating variety.  These aren't a collection of Jeremys (Sower and Guthrie).  These are big guys, who throw hard, and who get nasty movement on their pitches.  These are guys who get Ks.  These are guys who get discussed on those inane prospect blogs.  And most of them will fail.  But that is what is amazing.  Most of them can fail, and we'll still have a huge group of talented major league pitchers.  Not today, and not tomorrow, but not far off.  I love offense and hitters, but I'd trade Albert Belle for a guy who could neuter the opponents 1-9 with regularity.  When the 2007 team took off we were in the midst of planning space for Adam Miller...maybe with Chuck Lofgren thrown in for kicks.  And that was about it.  We have about three Adam Millers now, and about 10 guys who would slot in ahead of 2007 Lofgren.  At a minimum. 

And the current Indians talent is not a product of luck.  It is a product of active choices made by the current front office.  And the front office is in place.

The second piece of Jay's arguments, baseball's inequalities, is harder to rebut.  Actually, I don't expect to rebut it.  It is true.  Baseball is set up for New York, and a select few others, to succeed, and for the remainder of the league to crawl over each other for the lottery tickets to knock off Goliath.  It would be nice if that changes, but I really don't expect to have any role in changing it.  Baseball is not a democracy.  I don't believe we vote by buying tickets. And the Cleveland Indians are not likely to respond to any sudden movement by paying for substantial major league improvements.

What I am hoping is that you accept my argument that the issue is irrelevant.  It is not irrelevant to the product on the field or the standings come October.  But is irrelevant to how you approach the game as a fan.  We root for Cleveland because they are Cleveland.  Some of us were born there and had mothers and fathers who passed on the birthright.  Some of us, myself included, moved there at a young enough age so as to be baptized in baseball by Cleveland.  Some of us, by chance, have simply inherited the Tribe.  Whatever the path, we are not pink (or green) hat wearing fans who root for Cleveland because, and solely because, they win.  We are Cleveland.  We are fans.  Period.

I said in the comments to Jay's piece that equality is simply a subject you don't ask questions about.  You can't.  Rather you take it as given that when your team succeeds it has overcome obstacles that people from places like New York, Boston and LA don't even know exist.  So when you see that disappointment in their eyes you know part of what you are looking at is the fear of looking upon a reality they were unaware of and a world that has come upon them with their back turned.  And we love it.  Or at least we have loved it.  We loved it in New York in 2007 and 1997.  We loved it in Boston in 1998.  We will love it again sometime sooner rather than later.

So watch Cleveland play baseball this year.  Watch them play.  Watch them knowing that some of the young guys you are watching will fail and won't be part of the future.  But some of them will succeed.  These guys aren't the next Belle, Thome and Ramirez.  They are the next themselves.  They will create their own path and for a few of them that path will be greatness.  What you are witnessing this year in Cleveland is a birth.  Births only come once.  Each player only has one moment when you realize that they are the real deal.  In fact most players never even have that moment.  But there will be more than one of those moments in Cleveland this year.  You don't want to miss them.

Comment 73 comments  |  9 recs  | 

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Can’t decide which took brassier balls: My writing a “downer” piece for Opening Day, or your writing an “upper” piece now that we’re 2–6. I think I’m going with yours.

by Jay on Apr 14, 2010 10:56 PM EDT reply actions  

I just had my balls redusted today. It helped.

by APV on Apr 14, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Right on the Money

This team has a lot of young talent that will take time to get better and develop.But when they do this team will be good.I feel so sad for those fans who wanna wait till they win to cheer.This team may suck this year but Im gonna cheer anyways!

by TRIBE4LIFE on Apr 14, 2010 10:57 PM EDT reply actions  

It’s really quite difficult to justify this article with the abomination has has been our first eight games.

by Brad D on Apr 14, 2010 11:11 PM EDT reply actions  

Yep, 2-6, WRONG ADAM, scoreboard!

by Brick. on Apr 14, 2010 11:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

snark is just as bad, if not worse, than citing SSS

If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

i don’t really follow.

let me clarify my point. 8 games. we’re talking about 8 freaking baseball games at the start of a rebuild season and everyone presumes to know how things are going to play out through 2012. adam doesn’t need to “justify” his thoughts on the legs of any 8 baseball games.

by Brick. on Apr 15, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

My comment has less to do with your comment than it does with automatic snark, in general. I’m on your side in this case. Per my below comment, I loved this article. In general, though, snark has become the crutch-du-jour for people who can’t/don’t want to come up with reasoned arguments. Most of the time, it’s fine and I think funny. Sometimes, though, I worry that the Gawkers and Deadspins of the world are replacing legitimate news blogs and stuff. Because who needs real analysis when you can link to someone’s actual reporting and crap on it with witty snark.

Also!

Maybe I’m projecting here and taking out my frustrations on one harmless comment. My bad.

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

I worry that the Gawkers and Deadspins of the world are replacing legitimate news blogs and stuff. Because who needs real analysis when you can link to someone’s actual reporting and crap on it with witty snark.

You mean, like Jon Stewart?

by Jay on Apr 15, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Yeah, basically. I’m no staunch defender of Stewart’s. But the blogs are a little more insidious because you can get away with more on the internet, and because of the commentary.

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 16, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

Seems like an apropos place to remind people that there is a new sports network launching in Q1 2011. It will be more reliable than ESPN.

by FredOx on Apr 16, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know, I take issue with your last comment.

“Actual reporters” in the American media no longer apply any sort of analysis, other than an obsession with false equivalence. So yes, you do need “bloggers”, some of whom are very credentialed and knowledgeable.

And I may be wrong, Turk, but I think you read Jay’s comment wrong. Doesn’t it say something that all these polls come out proving that Stewart’s audience is vastly more informed on the state of America than viewers of basically any “news” program?

That being said, I don’t think I’ve ever looked at Gawker or Deadspin in my life.

by Gradyforpresident on Apr 17, 2010 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Mostly, I just think it’s ironic that it would be hard to distinguish between Gawker and Stewart based on that description.

by Jay on Apr 18, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

For the record, I’m aware of all the reasons that it makes no sense to judge a season on eight. I was merely stating that it is hard to read a positive article after another loss.

by Brad D on Apr 15, 2010 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Let’s Go Tribe! – For fans of the good kind of mediocre.

by cleveland teamer on Apr 14, 2010 11:16 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

Also, Fausto! may, may not be an ace.

by Brick. on Apr 14, 2010 11:25 PM EDT via mobile reply actions  

I know in my head that a .500 record is a pretty high ceiling for expectations this year, yet I am still getting wrapped up in these early games and still feeling real frustration each night we lose a game (gave the steering wheel a good pounding on the way home when Jhonny GIDP’d with the bases loaded). I’m not exactly an optimist by nature, but when it comes to baseball, I’m always tempted to keep watching (and usually tormented in the end) by the fact that anything can and does happen.

I am still watching this team and will continue to do so, no matter what happens. I don’t think a lot about why this is the case, maybe it’s simple enjoyment of the game (no matter how badly we might play it), maybe it’s because I live in Cleveland, maybe it’s this admittedly-fading crazy idea that this squad just might prove capable of surprising me this year, who knows.

In any case, Adam, I appreciate the “upper” post, even if it does feel like clinging to a life preserver in the middle of the Atlantic right now. Here’s hoping this team can somehow pull itself together before too long and make this season at least somewhat interesting for the rest of the division. LGT.

--
History is made at night. Character is what you are in the dark.

by vbc3 on Apr 14, 2010 11:26 PM EDT reply actions  

I was not terribly upset about Peralta. He has upset me so much that he doesn’t upset me much anymore…I almost expect it…he epitomizes being a cleveland fans.

I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.

by bross09 on Apr 15, 2010 12:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have to admit, I feel similarly.

by Jay on Apr 15, 2010 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions  

This has to pretty much sum up how most of us feel about him. He’s been my favorite player since he came up, but I’ve given up trying to defend him.

Come on, four billion!

by Joel D on Apr 15, 2010 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

One of my favorites as well. It’s hard to see him fall so unremittingly.

by odradek on Apr 16, 2010 2:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

Well put. I am baffled that people need to figure out how to enjoy this season. I don’t understand why some of us require a happy ending to enjoy the movie.

The game is great, the team is interesting, and there are many subplots to follow. The season is the point, and whatever frustrations we encounter along the way do not diminish the compelling and enjoyable aspects of the game.

Stop worrying about how to enjoy the season and just enjoy it.

by odradek on Apr 15, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Now this is real Old School.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Apr 15, 2010 11:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

If things go really well with Indians prospects in the next couple of years, maybe Antonetti will have the chance to spit some players back out for a needed ML-ready piece. That’s my hopeful scenario for his mettle-testing moment as GM.

by cleveland teamer on Apr 14, 2010 11:33 PM EDT reply actions  

I love to play blackjack.

On my student budget, I can afford $10/hand if the night is right. Occasionally, you’ve got at your table the guy who plays $25 per hand. He can afford to play elsewhere, but he joins you.

You play by the rules. When you’ve got 11 showing and the dealer has a bust card, you double down. Every time. Yet you either get dealt a crap card, or the dealer doesn’t have a face card under her bust card, or the dealer does have that face card but pulls a third card and manages a 20 to beat you. Meanwhile, your rich friend just split his Kings and landed two more face cards, stealing your good card and in the process taking the dealer’s bust card.

I’m confident that the Indians can and do double down every time they get dealt an 11 and the dealer has a bust card. I’m confident this organization won’t split face cards. But this is Cleveland. The dealer doesn’t have a face card under her bust card. And when you double down on 11, you’re getting a six, and the dealer’s going to beat you with an 18. Meanwhile, the idiot who’s playing the same game has somehow managed to overcome his own incompetence and double his stack.

The controllable variables are controlled. If there’s a right way to do it, they do it. So Adam, I’m not concerned about the talent part. I’m worried about the luck part. Because in this game, the uncontrollable variables doom you. Little did you know, the waitress is going to drop a glass on the blackjack table and a shard of glass is going severe a tendon in your hand so that your finger can’t bend and you can no longer play.

That is Cleveland Indians baseball.

by xrickx on Apr 14, 2010 11:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Our luck sucks, and the Yankees suck, but our bullpen… is probably our fault.

by joeee on Apr 15, 2010 3:02 AM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

amazed no one posted a picture of that sandwich here yet.

by Brick. on Apr 15, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Intuitively, I reject the argument that our luck is especially bad over the long haul. If we’re talking about decades of Indians baseball, the more consistent thread is that our management has been especially bad, except that it’s been a lot better in recent years.

Along those same lines, I have seen enough way-below-average bullpens out of the Shapiro Indians to say, even in full consideratoin of what we all know is a high luck factor with bullpens, this management group no longer deserves the benefit of the doubt on this subject.

It is reasonable to suppose that we have a core deficiency that renders us more unlikely than most clubs to put together a bullpen of modest confidence. That, and not some ass taking the dealer’s bust card, is the real problem here.

by Jay on Apr 15, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I want to be on board here, but I can’t. I don’t think the deficiencies are directly attributable to the FO.

1) If you have a shutdown closer, things always look better. There’s only so few of them, and sure, the Indians need one. They tried with Kerry Wood. So far, not good.
2) If you’re rich, paying the steadiest of the most unsteady performers helps limit the variability from a level of extreme variability to a more manageable level. The Indians can’t afford $3M middle relievers and $5M setup men. If there’s a place in the payroll to skimp, it’s the bullpen. And it shows.

In the last decade, the Indians really haven’t had either thing going for them.

by xrickx on Apr 15, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

2) If you’re rich, paying the steadiest of the most unsteady performers helps limit the variability from a level of extreme variability to a more manageable level. The Indians can’t afford $3M middle relievers and $5M setup men. If there’s a place in the payroll to skimp, it’s the bullpen. And it shows.

Cogent.

"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags

by woodsmeister on Apr 15, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

that kind of money for middle relief is always a bad idea

it certainly hasn’t worked for the yankees when they’ve tried to go that way

indian bullpens have been bad, but I don’t think money is the issue

by Freneau on Apr 15, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Money is an issue but in a less obvious way, I think. The Yankees and Red Sox, and I’m going off memory here, have gotten great bullpens out of arms that they got out of the draft. And, if I’m not mistaken, they went overslot for a number of those guys: Chamberlain, Hughes, Papelbon, Bard, Delcarmen. All home grown and all big draft prospects, right?

by afh4 on Apr 15, 2010 8:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

And can use them there because they can afford to fill their rotation with expensive veterans.

by Brick. on Apr 15, 2010 9:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

There was a point in this when for my first time I had that thought… Ya know, the “well, if our TINSTAAPPs are going to all get injured, get them up here before that” one.

I hate Lou Marson.

by westbrook on Apr 15, 2010 1:03 AM EDT reply actions  

Good stuff. Some much needed optimism.

LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.

by Joe. on Apr 15, 2010 1:28 AM EDT reply actions  

Ludwick, Pujols and Holliday are coming up in ordder! QUICK! Get a right-hander up in the pen!

I hate Lou Marson.

by westbrook on Apr 15, 2010 2:12 AM EDT reply actions  

The losing would be a lot more palatable if there was some bright light to watch. At the moment, Laporta would be the only guy to fill that role.

by DixonCayne on Apr 15, 2010 7:22 AM EDT reply actions  

Great post.

One thing though: It’s not quite accurate to say we never had pitching in the 90s. That almost mythical 1995 Indians team, most remembered for it’s other-worldly offense and minefield lineup, actually produced the best team ERA and gave up the fewest runs in the AL. The Tribe repeated this feat in 1996.

by Western Reserve on Apr 15, 2010 7:42 AM EDT reply actions  

That is true. And the bullpens were a big part of that, so from a leverage standpoint, the pitching staff was even better than ERA makes it look.

by Jay on Apr 15, 2010 8:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

We did so with a strange mixture of veteran guile, though. In ’95 40-year old Dennis Martinez and 36-year old Orel Hershiser were our best starting pitchers – both of whom tread lightly on the line between crafty skill and luck at that point. 60% of our starting staff was in the Jeremy Sowers K-rate territory. Yes, we had a good bullpen – Mesa, Tavarez, Plunk and Assenmacher all were strong in 95. But we had two, just two, young pitchers who were at all exciting on that staff – Chad Ogea and Julian Tavarez – and neither of them were knocking down the doors to stardom.

by APV on Apr 15, 2010 8:47 AM EDT up reply actions  

Tavarez did beat down that one ump later on though, which isn’t nothing.

Come on, four billion!

by Joel D on Apr 15, 2010 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

This team is worth watching. I have no doubt of that. Great post Adam.

-Erik

by drerikbrady on Apr 15, 2010 9:09 AM EDT reply actions  

Fantastic post. Thanks.

by Jeffrey R on Apr 15, 2010 9:24 AM EDT reply actions  

In all seriousness, this might be the best thing I’ve read about the Tribe in three years.

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 9:55 AM EDT reply actions  

That wasn’t in Comic Life, you mean.

Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile

by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 15, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

I struggle with this after watching the first ten games because I’m already becoming neurotic about the young players. I watched Josh Barfield and Peralta evaporate too quickly to not be angsting over Valbuena and Marson.

by afh4 on Apr 15, 2010 10:29 AM EDT reply actions  

I can understand this, but I think I’m OK with neither of these guys turning out to be crucial pieces of the puzzle. Marson won’t matter because we have Santana, and Valbuena… well, there’s Marson. But let’s be honest, the Indians haven’t had a real second baseman in years with the exception of Robbie Alomar, and we managed to do just fine.

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I like the idea that Marson moves to 2B when Valbuena fails. I know you mean Donald (who I actually really like right now because I’m an idiot and he’s hitting currently and I can’t control my emotions).

Carlos Baerga was really good, though that’s a long time ago.

More importantly, in 2005 and 2007 (the only good years post-Alomar), they did have good 2B: Asdrubal and Ronnie Belliard’s 17 HR campaign. Not that 2B is a position that’s linked to success causally; just sort of interesting.

by afh4 on Apr 15, 2010 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

Cord Phelps can play himself into discussions this year. He’s not likely to be a big piece of the future, but being in Akron he is just a few steps away from Cleveland and potentially able to be a useful piece.

by APV on Apr 15, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions  

I really, really like Kipnis.

by afh4 on Apr 15, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly…so right now our 2B depth goes Valbuena (Cleveland), Donald (Columbus), Phelps (Akron), Kipnis (Kinston). That is pretty solid.

by APV on Apr 15, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

He plays good defense, which would be welcome at 2B.

by xrickx on Apr 15, 2010 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yikes, I did mean Donald, thanks.

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

been a tribe fan since I was 9 and that 55 years of watching. And this is like a rerun of the 70’s 80’s and half of the 90’s. Never having the money to compete with the big cities. Back then the fan talk was centered on the farm system and which rookies would turn the team in to a winner and I was a big enough fan to fall for it every year and still do. For things to change for the tribe, the revenue system will need to be fixed, Does anyone really think the owner are going to change the system?
But not to leave things on a sour note with the way this team is playing and the lack of attendance we should get a top 5 draft pick the next few years.

still love my tribe

by fanintexas on Apr 15, 2010 11:23 AM EDT reply actions  

And this is another Old School view.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Apr 15, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll agree that we have more talent in the pipeline than any time in the past 6 or 7 years. My question to you APV: What evidence is there indicating we’re in a better position, talent-wise, than our divisional rivals, or comparable teams around baseball? We have exactly one universally-agreed on top ten talent in Santana, and I’m legitimately excited for him. He’s also the first prospect on that level we’ve had in over half a decade. Chiz and Wegz are also promising of course, but hardly blue-chip.

Really though, I’m not worried about producing position players. Right now, I still have yet to be sold on the pitching. The vaunted “depth” we’re always hearing about shouldn’t conceal the fact that we don’t have any true high-ceiling starters in the upper levels of our minors. And you know, Knapp, Hagadone, Gardner, White, etc. are all fun to think about, but there are serious flaws with at least three of the guys you just mentioned (Knapp’s injury history, uncertainty as to whether Hagadone and White can stick as starters). Is there any evidence that we’re actually coming out ahead of our divisional rivals in terms of producing high-quality major league pitching?

If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 11:36 AM EDT reply actions  

And you know, Knapp, Hagadone, Gardner, White, etc. are all fun to think about, but there are serious flaws with at least three of the guys you just mentioned (Knapp’s injury history, uncertainty as to whether Hagadone and White can stick as starters). Is there any evidence that we’re actually coming out ahead of our divisional rivals in terms of producing high-quality major league pitching?

Again – the argument isn’t that any one of these guys is destined for greatness. It is just that we have a slew of them. If 40% of the legit starting prospects we have turn into major league starters, we still have more than a complete rotation. I don’t think any of our AL Central rivals could say the same.

by APV on Apr 15, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

I dunno man. Take the Tigers for example. Outside of Porcello, Verlander, and Scherzer, they’ve got two five-star pitching prospects (according to Goldstein) in Turner and Crosby. Both have ace-level potential. Looking down the list, they’ve got 4-5 guys who throw in the mid- to upper nineties and have truly nasty stuff. Obviously not all of those guys are going to pan out either, but their organization has already shown it can draft and develop pitching talent. Twins are the same way—I haven’t looked at their prospects recently, but you can bet they’ll have 3-4 noteworthy guys and probably a lot more sleepers. I guess what I’m trying to say is that, even with this “influx” of high-ceiling arms, I don’t see us as being that far ahead of the competition. We just now might have caught up.

If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.

by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 12:10 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

I applaud you for your efforts in attempting to dislodge the fanbase from their depression and ambivalence towards the 2010 season. I think that in the current economic structure of major league baseball, Cleveland has adopted the only strategy that might work for the Indians to capture a championship – fill the system with a tremendous amount of young talent and hope that enough of them develop at the same time in order for the team to compete for a championship. Odds are good that some of them will develop on schedule, but we’ll need some luck for enough of them to develop to make us competitive.
 
2010 will not be that year and 2011 will not be either. Our current hopes are that the team can harvest the talent in 2012 and 2013. Because of this, the Indians 2010 and 2011 seasons have been reduced to extended spring training. This is somewhat entertaining, but I don’t think the broader fanabse is going to be upset if they miss many of the games. And at least on Wednesday, they showed that they are not.

I think the team is going to need two good seasons plus an un-dramatic offseason to get the broader fanbase stimulated. One season to prove the team is competitive, a second season to show it wasn’t a fluke, and an off-season where the team doesn’t lose its key players.

by ShawnK on Apr 15, 2010 11:42 AM EDT reply actions  

I liked Jay’s piece until he got bogged down a little too much in the Yankee blame game. He had reason to be pessimistic, because even though we have youth, it represents too many variables. The key to baseball success is making sure you have more constants than variables. That way there is a predictable way of managing your talent and plugging in holes where you expect them to be. When you have a team that is overloaded with youth, there is no way to reasonably manage where your holes will come from nor the amount of talent needed to plug those holes. Even if you are able to acheive this level of predictability, then you have to pray to the gods that your bullpen holds up (which is always represents a variable).

So, I thought his piece was more directed at the state of the team for 2010, rather than the franchise going forward. His derision for the financial politics of baseball was just because it allows a few teams to unfairly plug holes when mistakes are made. Other teams are left to stew in them for years on end. So, while it may have been pessimistic on the future, it was for good reason. The odds are stacked against us.

by Toxicadam on Apr 15, 2010 3:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Hating on the Douches is always time well spent. You’ll see, eventually your blood will boil every time you see pistripes.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Apr 15, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

And pinstripes, too!

Blake: Thanks to you, I am damaged beyond repair!!

by emd2k3 on Apr 16, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions  

Now, Chuck, you need to get your derogatory shorthand straight:

  • Douches = that team that plays in Boston, best personified by Douchebag-in-Chief Dustin Pedroia. Home of the Pedroia Factor and PF+, a useful measure of douchebaggery.
  • Jackasses = that team that plays in the Bronx, best personified by Fat Jackass himself. Known for many things, including New Jackass Stadium, the billion-dollar monument to hubris.

by FredOx on Apr 16, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions   2 recs

Every time I see a Yankees hat or a Red Sox hat I get physically angry

"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay

by Turkmenbashi on Apr 16, 2010 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’ll watch because I have to. I just can’t help myself.

Resident LGT results-oriented boob.

by mauichuck on Apr 15, 2010 11:54 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

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