Game Eight: Rangers 6, Indians 2
by Ryan on Apr 14, 2010 11:01 PM EDT
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If you didn't watch or listen to this game, and tried to look at a box score to deduce how it went, you'd see an interesting outing from Justin Masterson:
6.0 IP, 9 H, 9 SO, 0 BB, 2 ER
Normally I'd be praising an Indians pitcher to had this type of start. There were a lot of hits, but no walks, and a lot of swings and misses. What bothered me about this start was the continuation of a trend that might mean he can no longer be a starter in the majors. Masterson is a right-handed pitcher with a three-quarter delivery; normally pitchers with this type of delivery are very good against hitters from the same side, and for the same reason, lit up by hitters from the opposite side. Left-handed hitters are getting more time to see Masterson's pitches, and have accordingly hit .292/.392/.450 against him in the majors. Tonight Texas had three left-handers in their lineup (Julio Borbón, Josh Hamilton, and Chris Davis), and in their first two at-bats against Masterson, they went 5-for-6, with two extra-base hits, and no strikeouts. That's right, of Masterson's 9 strikeouts tonight, all came against right-handed hitters. MLB managers can read the splits as well as a blogger can, and you better believe they'll be throwing as many left-handed hitters as they have available against Masterson until he can prove he can get them out. That's why a superficially decent start is so concerning to me; we could be looking at a pitcher the Indians were counting on to stay in the rotation all season essentially being downgraded to a right-handed specialist.
The other happenings weren't pretty, either. Jhonny Peralta has been awful at the plate in this young season, and he made another throwing error on defense that lead to two runs. The concern in Peralta moving to third was mostly about his range, or his reaction time; his arm has always been strong and accurate. I'm guessing that Andy Marte's going to start getting some starts at third base as the Indians start thinking about their next third baseman.
The Indians were denied a third run because a fan grabbed Michael Brantley's two-run ground-ball double. The ball wasn't hit very hard, and although they didn't show where Luis Valbuena was when the ball was interfered with, I'd have to guess that was at least to third base. Unlike a ground-rule double, where the rules are set in stone, umpires have the discretion to score a player who they deemed would have scored had the play continued. I couldn't understand how the home plate umpire thought the Rangers would have had a play on Valbuena, even with Nelson Cruz's excellent arm.
| Highest WPA | Lowest WPA | ||
| Shin-Soo Choo | .142 | Jhonny Peralta | -.274 |
| Michael Brantley | .133 | Justin Masterson | -.177 |
| Grady Sizemore | .085 | Asdrubal Cabrera | -.176 |
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Comments
13:1
Is this something to feel good about? Just asking.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Apr 14, 2010 11:28 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
man, I still believe in Masterson, although my optimism might be totally unfounded. Has he been more effective against RH hitting out of the ‘pen? It seems like he throws quite a bit harder when he’s used as a reliever, which might help his effectiveness against righties (just speculating). That closer job might be up for grabs soon. . . .
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 14, 2010 11:45 PM EDT reply actions
Ryan, I agree with you about Masterson. He definitely threw some devastating pitches, and no walks and 9 K’s is always good. But he needs to throw four-seamers inside and throw some changeups too…however, that doesn’t appear to be part of his plan.
In what I was able to watch, I didn’t see him throw one changeup. I checked f/x, and they didn’t have him throwing a changeup either. None. Zero. I didn’t see him throw many in the one or two outings I saw this spring either. I can’t find the quote, but in the spring Masterson basically dismissed the need to throw many changeups, saying that he was just focusing on locating his other pitches (sinker, fastball, slider). That’s alarming. And after the game, Acta basically agreed with him. I had to rewind the DVR to make sure I was hearing it correctly, but Acta essentially said that instead of trying to trick guys, he just needed to work on his command. OK guys, good luck with that.
In both starts this year he’s only faced three lefties in each lineup, and two of those lefties were Pierre and Borbon…not guys that can do to much damage. I think we’ll see Masterson have some good outings, but there will be a lot of inconsistency. I knew coming into the year that he’d need to get his brains beat in for awhile before he tried to do something different against lefties…based on what he’s said and done thus far, that might take awhile longer.
Two runs or less in 5 of the 8 games for the offense…can someone just shorten their swing and hit a line drive up the middle please? And Jhonny, if pitchers continue to throw inside fastballs to you without fear, that should tell you something. And I’ve liked the way Hafner has looked this year, but I thought tonight was more like the past couple of years.
Lastly, I’m not so sure Valbuena would’ve scored on that play. It wasn’t far down the line, and Cruz would’ve been able to throw it to home without a relay. And Valbuena has barely above-average speed. I’m not saying he couldn’t have scored, but I didn’t see that it was a slam dunk.
Now off to do my favorite Tribe-related thing – peruse the minor league box scores. Sigh.
But he needs to throw four-seamers inside and throw some changeups too…however, that doesn’t appear to be part of his plan.
Forgot to specify that this should be his approach against lefties.
Speaking of Brick, that is a good piece of business in the Twitter feed. I tip my derby.
Andrew has also had some good ones. I particularly was fond of “Couldn’t sleep. Kept thinking of Mitch Talbot”.
I wonder if Masterson should pitch lefties from the first base edge of the pitching rubber, to make it harder for batters to see his delivery. He needs to break the line of sight somehow.
by MTF on Apr 15, 2010 7:11 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I think we are stuck with playing Jhonny as much as possible. It makes no sense to diminish his value by making him a part-time player. You hope he turns it around so he can be a valuable commodity come July.
I think when people say we’re harsh on beginners, this is why. And I’m not singling you out, Andrew, but why not say welcome first?
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, I really am not losing any sleep over putting welcome last.
by afh4 on Apr 15, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know, I know. I’m probably overreacting. Just, more flies with honey and all that.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Jury’s still out. Lots of young mods are pricks for about six months and then end up clearing waivers 4 years later.
by afh4 on Apr 15, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The humor memes move so fast around here it’s staggering. Love it.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions
Ha, I wouldn’t say he’s anymore of a prick than he ever was. I mean, in a good way. I mean… nevermind.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn’t realize we could say prick outside of the game threads. It seemed pretty borderline to me.
Come on, four billion!
Obviously, as you just used it. I guess I prefer to err to the side of caution with slang references to male genitals.
Come on, four billion!
Turk prefers mods to err on the side of caution with being a dick.
by Logodaedalus on Apr 15, 2010 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
The crowd was just over 10k. Can you imagine how bad it will be during Cavs playoffs games? WTF?!?!
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
It’s not just Cleveland. The Orioles drew 9,129 on Monday, the smallest home crowd since April 21, 1994, when 4,585 brave souls watched Cal Ripken hit a two-run walk-off single off Scott Lewis.
These examples are why the free agent collusion filing should be dismissed.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
by jerseywahoo on Apr 15, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
None of this matters. The Yankees and Red Sox are drawing well.
by Roger Dorn on Apr 15, 2010 10:55 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Are you sure? I spoke to a friend who went the Yanks game and said it was about 60% full yesterday. Granted that was for an April day game.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
by jerseywahoo on Apr 15, 2010 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Just over 10K tickets sold, not at the game.
From my vantage point, I would put the actual fannies in seats somewhere around 4K, and probably lower.
by The DiaTriber on Apr 15, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
noon game lineup: Cabrera SS, Sizemore CF, Choo RF, Kearns LF, Hafner DH, LaPorta 1B, Grudzielanek 2B, Marte 3B, Redmond C, Huff P
It’s convenient that it’s a noon game after a night game, but a lot of those guys could use a game on the bench either way.
Steel Nick
Hell yeah
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep, because it gives me something to do at work.
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 15, 2010 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Last night was difficult to watch. I was at the game and it the number of fans there was depressing. The loudest cheer of the night was when the idiot fan decided he wanted a souvenir and touched Brantley’s would be 3-run double. The guy was nearly booed out of the stadium.
I haven’t been on LGT in a nearly a year, would I be out of line on this here calling for John Nunnally’s head so soon? I mean these guys are striking out and hitting weak ground balls like they are going out of style….I didn’t like that hire by Acta in the first place.
I’m also getting annoyed by Acta’s constant positive attitude. These guys are professionals, they need to know when they aren’t playing well. For Manny to say, “I like the way [Peralta] is playing defense,” steams my clams a little bit. He had another error on a terrible throw last night then 2 batters later about threw another one away but LaPorta saved his keyster on that one with a great pick.
Feel free to obliterate my posting and tell me if I’m out of line here.
You’re not out of line.
I can’t see calling for anyone’s head after eight games.
As for Acta, a lot of us fairly flipped our lids when Wedge benched Peralta for three days after a single defensive miscue, even though he was the only guy in the lineup who could hit at the time. What you’re calling for seems like a version of that. Maybe the real key here is that you think Acta is BS’ing about the good defense.
It’s almost like he thinks we will believe him. He just needs to say that it’s something that needs to be worked on or something, I don’t know.
Calling for heads this early is a little panicky I guess. That said, this team looks completely lost at the plate right now. I’m waiting for a curveball to buckle Marson’s knees and him look at the umpire and ask him, “How did he do that?” And then say, “He’s not allowed to do that, that’s not what coach throws us in batting practice!”
I know we aren’t supposed to be contenders this year but I found myself asking a lot of questions last night. The signing of Branyan, Redman, and Kearns took time away from young players, though not in Branyan’s case….yet. Acta needs to be a bit more assertive, he’s coddling these guys like Lou Brown. And Nunnally has to get these guys to make contact. Our strikeout numbers are sky high. The best thing I heard at the game last night was a fan yell, “Put in Alomar!!!!” The sad part is, he’s probably right, Alomar can probably still hit better than these guys.
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Branyan, Redman, and Kearns all look like good signings to me, right now (SSS), because the young players don’t seem to deserve to play. Heck, put in Grudz.
Well, let’s be serious, besides Grady and now Choo is there anyone who appears deserving of playing time? Kearns does appear to be playing well, but I think Brantley needs his time.
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
I think Brantley needs his time in AAA. There’s no reason he can’t go down there and actually have a good year, which he’s never done.
I’m not opposed to these moves. Valbuena can be replaced, at least temporarily, by Jason Donald (who is off to a hot start in Columbus). Brantley can be replaced by Crowe until Branyan comes back. Both swaps would be fine with me.
I like Valbuena. I think good things are to come for him. Why would we replace Brantley with someone who hit a meager .235 last season? I like Crowe, but that move makes no sense to me.
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
The idea isn’t that Crowe is better than Brantley, it is that we don’t care what happens to Crowe. We want Brantley to develop, and one possible path to that is to get him some reps at AAA (with the advantage of setting his arbitration clock to where we want it). Crowe simply fills in his spot without any loss to the 40-man roster.
See now this makes sense….this is an answer haha. I like this idea, but I guess I would like to just see Brantley up here playing. He hit well last year, why not give him the opportunity? Like everyone seems to be saying, we are only 8 games in. Shouldn’t we give Brantley at least a month to prove his value before he ship him to Columbus?
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
He did not hit well last year, either in the majors or the minors.
Why do people think that he did? Have you not looked at the numbers?
Because the little park + luck fix on minorleaguesplits.com says he did. His high line-drive% (21%) and low BABIP (.288) get revised up to make a .319/.396/.425 line for him. That is still very much batting average driven, but it is not a terrible line.
Proud to say, I literally have no idea what his batting average was.
I know his OPS was 700 and change in the majors and the minors, and I know he’s not an elite defensive OF.
And I’ll go ahead and play my role as the Brantley pessimist. I always was down on Sowers and it’s the negative image of Brantley. Major leaguers will just abuse Jeremy because he can’t strike anybody out; they just wait foul off and wait for a meatball because he has no challenge pitch. When that became obvious, he became a nibbler with less than fringe stuff and, now, only 4 years after exploding onto the scene with an awesome rookie campaign, he’s basically out of baseball.
In contrast, Brantley has so little power that he’s just going to get challenged over and over and that’s going to be the end of his vaunted plate discipline and, without that, you’ve got his supposed line-drive ability (which was closely linked to getting good pitches to hit b/c of the plate discipline).
I could be (probably will be) wrong but that’s my no-knowledge opinion.
With good reason.
My Brantley argument is better suited to Marson.
I got so frustrated with the Indians trying to game pitching evaluation (We know how to find new Jamie Moyers! Everyone else is wasting their time looking for Clemens!) and that’s how I feel about the Marson and Brantley acquisitions. These guys are not considered ML starters by lots of smart people for a reason.
Law doesn’t think he’s a starter. Goldstein seems pretty “Eh” on it as well.
If people thought he was a ML starter he’d be a lot more highly regarded than he is. It’s easy to get caught up in the “LGT evaluation”, which tends to be more in-depth and often insightful, but Brantley is not a guy that KG, Law, BA, etc have a lot of interest in. And that says something to me.
To be fair, Goldstein had both Marson and Brantley as 3-star guys in November – 3 stars being a pretty decent grade. If you go through his lists, you’ll find a lot of valued positional prospects with 3-star grades. And Law has Brantley as a top-75 guy. So while they aren’t gushing over Brantley, they aren’t exactly negative on him either.
These guys are not considered ML starters by lots of smart people for a reason.
Sowers was not a controversial draft pick, at all. He rose uncommonly quickly through the system. It’s only based on that quick rise, not on his draft position, that he appears to have under-achieved. Check out the list of #6 overall picks. Sowers is above-average in terms of the quality of his career.
Brantley is a Top 100 prospect. This represents consensus view of scouts, most of whom don’t work for the Indians. Are those scouts talking about something other than whether he can be a major league starter?
More or less ditto for Marson, etc. These guys are not ticketed for stardom, and maybe that’s what has you confused. When someone’s ceiling is probably “everyday player,” this is what it looks like when they struggle, or in Brantley’s case, when they are probably overexposed and under-ripe.
We are in some ways more accustomed to the “future star” prospect, which looks different, while the “future regular” prospects (like Choo or Peralta) generally fly in under the radar. We have a bunch of “future regulars” now, and they’re probably getting scrutinized a little unfairly here.
I’m not confused. The actual evals on these guys often question their ability to start. In ’09 and ’10 both, Goldstein wrote about Brantley as a guy straddling the extra OF/starter line. I just looked it up.
And, I’m not comparing Sowers to either of these guys, although I implied that. To me, it’s more Huff, Laffey, etc.
I’m actually with Andrew on this one. I think Brantley is, to some extent, an LGT darling for reasons I don’t understand. Being better than Trevor Crowe is nothing to hang your hat on.
I don’t really think Brantley is an LGT darling. More of a clecom and indians.com darling, because he represents a piece of the Sabathia trade (the view a player through the deal that brought him here fallacy), because he seems to reflect (but doesn’t really) a new approach to prospect development (the ignore contract and roster management considerations fallacy), and because he posted a batting average over 300 last year (the sample size and idiot stat analysis fallacy). I think the view of Brantley here is both more diverse and more nuanced.
It is interesting to go back and read the various discussions on LGT about the PTBNL in the Sabathia trade. There are a lot of varied opinions. He has become more of a consensus guy than he originally was.
The context there, of course, was This Guy or That Guy. Now that we’ve gotten a better look at That Guy, This Guy seems great. There’s still quite a bit of dissent here about what skills Brantley brings to the table as of April 15, 2010. And not much, if any, support for keeping him around once Branyan is health(ier).
Difficult to tell how serious you are but I do think the regard that people (rightfully) hold you and Adam in did drive some of the discussion to an absurd place (“Who’s the better prospect-LaPorta or Brantley?”). I realize this was never your intention and that you cop immediately to Net being something to reinforces you’re preconceived notions intentionally but I do think less careful readers just started comparing the numbers.
"Who’s the better prospect-LaPorta or Brantley?"
I admit. I still think this is a valid question. The only skill LaPorta brings to the table and ever will bring to the table is his bat. It has to develop to a very high level for him to be a good player. Brantley has far more capacity to develop his defense and speed in addition to his offensive repertoire.
I just can’t get down for this.
I understand the premise of “Maybe there is some chance the Brantley will be more valuable than LaPorta one day.” This has, in fact, become true of Aaron Laffey and Adam Miller.
But I cannot understand the idea that LaPorta is the better prospect; the idea of “better prospect” has two components for me: 1) Which player is more likely to be valuable in the majors and 2) Which player is more valuable as a chip? And, to my eyes, the resounding answer is LaPorta, by both statistics, scouting, and pedigree.
It is strange because in some ways I think we are viewing things in a similar way. You are down on Brantley because you view his lack of power as extreme, extreme enough that it will more likely degrade his other skills as he advances against better competition than improve. One of the reasons I am high on Brantley is because he displayed in the minors plate discipline, and particularly contact ability, that I would view extreme. His 5% K-rate in 2008 is extreme. And I think that kind of extreme ability is more likely to survive more difficult competition and bring the other components of his hitting along with it. So far you look like the winner, in that his K-rates have gone up considerably against AAA and MLB competition, and his power has not. I just don’t think the story is done yet.
My question also reflects LaPorta’s unimpressive tenure with the Tribe. His first pro year (second half of 2007, first half of 2008) was sensational – but honestly…has it really been that great since? Good, no doubt. But sensational?…not even close.
Fai enough. I also think the difference in scouting is pretty extreme.
by afh4 on Apr 15, 2010 8:27 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
at least with brantley, there’s the chance he could still develop some power. now marson, on the other hand . . . .
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah except everyone who knows anything says his swing will never have power.
Sorry, sorry I’ll crawl back into my hole.
no, it’s cool man. i’m not trying to defend brantley or anything. i like your attitude. it pleases me to see an illustrious LGT figure such as yourself have such a negative take on shapiro & co.’s talent evaluation.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
because it’s the truth
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think we are being a little hasty with our Brantley evaluations. Shapiro has a strong track record in picking out minor league batters. I don’t know if there is a better GM in the game at acquiring other team’s position players.
i don’t know if he’s right about brantley specifically. i was talking more in general terms
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
and I am in general terms saying Shapiro is pretty good at acquiring positional players. The pitching is a whole different story.
yeah man, i know he is. but he’s had his fair share of misses, too. i think he’s entitled to a presumption in his favor when it comes to these kinds of trades, but not with his overall body of work.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
In this particular area, he really has not had his fair share of misses. And even his busts are better than your average bust.
I really don’t see what Shapiro’s sculpture prowess has to do with anything.
by Logodaedalus on Apr 15, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t know if there is a better GM in the game at acquiring other team’s position players.
That had been true in the past (Cabrera, Choo, Sizemore) but that doesn’t mean it’s true in the present (Brantley, Marson, even Santana). The jury is still out there. He might not be as infallible as he once seemed.
As the man says, past performance is no guarantee of future results.
2001
Milton Bradley
Josh Bard
Jody Gerut
Alex Escobar
2002
Ben Broussard
Brandon Phillips
Grady Sizemore
Travis Hafner
Coco Crisp
2003
Ryan Ludwick
2004
Franklin Gutierrez
2005
Andy Marte
Kelly Shoppach
2006
Asdrubal Cabrera
Shin-Soo Choo
Max Ramirez
2008
Matt LaPorta
Michael Brantley
Carlos Santana
Luis Valbuena
2009
Lou Marson
Jason Donald
That’s an impressive list. I know you’re not suggesting this, but it doesn’t guarantee Marson, Donald and Brantley are more like Hafner and Bradley than they are like Jody Gerut.
Yeah, but you know what? Jody Gerut had a decent little career. Hell, he’s probably starting for some NL West team.
Marson and Donald are pretty squarely in the Gerut mold in terms of overall package of skills and ceiling. The point is that Shapiro’s track record is very, very impressive in identifying prospects who will be productive major leaguers, at least decent starters for a few years. If you consider the overall bust rate for prospects, what Shapiro has done in this area borders on “shocking.”
I agree. Gerut is in a rare cohort. And Shapiro’s past ability to discern positional talent does indeed border on shocking. But, my point, that doesn’t mean he is assured of continuing this shocking trend.
it’s not the truth.
see, i can do it too. besides, something being true doesn’t make it pleasing. neither does who says it. you just want to rabble.
The truth is that the truth is a player to be named later.
"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags
by woodsmeister on Apr 15, 2010 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
not going to get into a discussion w/ you on the merits of shapiro’s talent evaluation, because we all know where that would go.
but if you assume that my take on shap & co. is true, then yes, it is pleasing to hear other people come around to realizing it. i strive to be realistic, and i’d rather not keep deluding myself about what this front office is capable of. so to me, it is pleasing.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
The positive with Brantley is that his GB% has been trending downward across his pro career, while his LD% has been going up. I think there is hope there. Marson’s GB% is about 10 notches higher than Brantley, hovering in the upper 50s and low 60s. There is never going to be any power coming from his bat.
I call out Marson solely because we know he’s not our catcher of the future. I kind of wish Toregas would have beat him out for the job.
Brantley I think will be around for a while I have a feeling.
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
I disliked the fact that we got Marson in that deal in the first place. Why bring him in and get rid of Shoppach when Shoppach could hold it down until Santana was ready. This is just my opinion though, I just hated that Marson was included in that deal.
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
so, you’d just assume him fail, or not play or whatever because you wish we didn’t acquire him in the first place. i suppose that makes sense
Ok…I don’t want him to fail. I just don’t see the logic here. Redman is gone in a year. Toregas has a chance to get some playing time in the bigs and be a formidable backup catcher. Marson, to me, is garbage. I don’t see anything good with having him behind the plate. When Santana comes up Marson will be gone. When Redman goes who’s left? We will not have Marson and Santana up at the same time. Toregas has handled many of these pitchers before, so he could, in turn help out Santana if he had a season in the bigs under his belt…..this is my theory, I am probably logistically wrong, but oh well
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Toregas has little chance to be formidable at anything baseball-related. Taking the long view, Marson looks like a perfectly adequate backup to Santana.
Here’s a tip: stop judging players through the prism of the deal that brought them here, and try not to rush to judgments when you can count the games played on Adam Miller’s usable fingers.
we’re still only 8 games in, right? i can’t believe how many conclusions are being drawn from this group from such a small sample. christ on a cracker, we’ve had about half as many off days as games played at this point.
"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags
by woodsmeister on Apr 15, 2010 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
this looks like a good side dish to serve with the double down. erase some sins, get some carbs in the diet.
Eh, by the time you get it to your mouth it’s just two crackers.
by Logodaedalus on Apr 15, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions
if we are going to get testy….do you really think they will have a 24 year old back up another 24 year old? No, they will continue to bring in veteran catchers to back up Santana, just like they did with Marson.
I’m not judging by the way they came here. Yes I don’t like that we traded for him, but that doesn’t mean I doom him to failure. I just don’t see the upside of having him up here unless it’s an audition for him to become trade bait.
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
neither of which were expected to be as great as Santana. They will want to surround him with someone who has been around…..maybe Alomar.
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
I still think they will want a vet backstop there with him.
by TribeHippie on Apr 15, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
do you really think they will have a 24 year old back up another 24 year old?
Yes. They, and many other teams, have done this exactly, many times.
Frankly, Vic provides the model for this. His backup for his first full season was older-than-he-was Tim Laker, but after that, his backups were all roughly his age. Indeed, Redmond’s pretty much the first true veteran backup catcher the Indians have had around since what, Pena?
Except, I think, Marson might be better than Bard. Prediction: Marson will cease to be a punchline here once it is determined that he has become the cleveland.com whipping boy.
Toregas has little chance to be formidable at anything baseball-related.
I wonder why you are so sure of this. He’s demonstrated a gun for an arm at the catcher position though the minors, allows few past balls, and few errors (and is generally regarded as a solid defensive catcher).
Why bring him in and get rid of Shoppach when Shoppach could hold it down until Santana was ready.
I think you are really not considering the cost-and-control aspects of this even slightly. Shoppach costs $2 million more than Marson and is under club control for three fewer seasons. Even if both guys are just placeholders or backups, that’s worth real serious money to the Indians.
Shoppach also netted us Talbot — six years of him. Again, he may just be a decently skilled warm body to throw into the rotation, but who could deny that we needed one?
So we have six years each of Talbot and Marson, and you would rather have Shoppach? That is just not remotely smart. There is more to this roster management thing than just “who would be the least irritating players for TribeHippie to watch this month.”
It’s almost like he thinks we will believe him. He just needs to say that it’s something that needs to be worked on or something, I don’t know.
Making these public statements is a lot tougher than it looks. His players will read them. Other teams will read them. The media will dissect them. And all the fans — rank-and-file, sophisticates, and clecoms alike — will all read them, too. That’s a lot of disparate viewpoints and agendas to try to satisfy in one succinct comment. It’s not easy.
I would not make the mistake of assuming that Acta’s public statements are all that indicative of his private motivational strategies with individual players.
Would you rather have Manny Acta publicly call out his guys? Would you rather have him come out and say “this team is currently pretty awful” and give the press more reason to hate on the Tribe and the cleveland.com posters more reason to pile on the “Dolan is Cheap” and “I Told You So” bandwagons? For that matter, does anyone really think that calling out Jhonny publicly is going to be any more effective for Manny Acta than it was when Wedge did it?
Whatever he’s telling the team in private, in his public statements Acta has to be positive. It’s early, the team wants to win, for the most part they are kids and they’re pressing at the plate. They’ve also faced some pretty good pitching. It’s frustrating, but it’s frankly too early to be calling for heads. Even Jhonny’s.
"...maybe this year, there's no gorilla" - YoDaddyWags
by woodsmeister on Apr 15, 2010 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions
Thought this might be an appropriate place to point out a glowing Fangraphs review of Masterson’s performance. Typical for that site—the article talks about his projected FIP, but nary a mention of the 3/4 arm angle or massive platoon split.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 15, 2010 10:56 AM EDT reply actions
Is there any chance Shapiro & Co. decide to forgo the financial benefits of waiting on Santana in the interest of ‘shaking things up’, or something along those lines?
I agree that there probably is none, and so the answer is close to zero, but there’s no denying this franchise/fanbase could use something to get excited over.
by jakesinger777 on Apr 15, 2010 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
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