Calling Hey Jaysie
Hey, Hoynsie: I only know two things in this world ... I am sick of the Tribe crying "mid-market" and that the money is in TV. Can't the Dolans leverage their family's cable experience to turn STO into their primary revenue stream/profit center? When is the Cavs' FSN contract up? Why don't they telecast/simulcast high-rated sports talk radio shows? Telecast poker tournaments held at Gilbert's casino? There are about 15,000 Law & Order reruns out there to buy at a reasonable price. Build a cable network and dedicate the profits on being 15th in payroll each and every year already. What excuses do you suspect the Dolans would volley back to me if posed with these questions? -- Patrick Yarnevic, Lakewood
Hey, Patrick: First, I think Larry Dolan would say that he has no connection to his brother, Charles, and his Cablevision and professional sports empire. Second, Paul Dolan would tell you that STO and the Indians are separate companies connected by the rights deal to air Tribe programming. Third, I think they'd both tell you to cut back on the coffee.
about 2 years ago
tabler84
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I know we’ve tended to go over this subject before, but let me make this clear: Every opportunity he gets, Paul Hoynes utterly fails to help fans understand the reality of baseball economics. I think it’s largely because he doesn’t understand it himself. In a season like this, providing a thorough answer is even more important.
Jay, how about one Hey Jaysie answer here, and I’ll copy and paste it for every idiot who asks similar idiotic questions.
Hmm. . . while we’re talking about noteworthy fan/beat writer exchanges, I thought I might share this little gem from Sheldon Ocker’s mailbag. . .
Hey Socker:
I read your column on Wes Hodges and I feel sorry for you. You’re in the twilight of your career and stuck trying to come up with something interesting to write about the Indians. There is nothing interesting about the Indians. I foresee many mundane filler articles to come. Fate has dealt you a lousy hand, sir.
Paul Ilkanic
Sharon Center
Dear Paul:
Don’t feel sorry for me. You read it.
S.O.
Just love these old media guys. I mean, why shouldn’t they be arrogant and lazy? They’ve earned it by virtue of their positions at mid-sized daily newspapers, the true and uncontroverted pinnacle of the print news media.
If you don't respect Aaron Laffey, I will fight you.
by Cap'n Snegiryov on Apr 18, 2010 11:16 AM EDT reply actions
Wow. If there were any sense of justice in the world, Ocker should be fired for that sort of response. Being a baseball idiot is one thing, being a complete ass about it as well is a whole new ballgame.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 18, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
In a way Ocker’s right. Pro Rasslin’ – the new paradign for baseball – has know this all along. You’ve got your babyfaces – like Posnanski and Gammons – and you’ve got your heels – like Ocker and Hoynes. In the end it’s not who you like or dislike, it’s who you pay to see/read.
Myself I read George Will and occasionally watch Sean Hannity, not because I agree with them but because I wanna see/hear what kinda idiocy they’re spouting today. Same with Hoynes and Ocker. I don’t agree with them – most of the time anyway – but I am interested in what kinda drivel they’re feedin’ the masses today.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
And that’s good for the understanding of baseball (or politics) how?
No, I don’t take enjoyment that they’re actively making the population less intelligent.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 18, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
The assumption here – if I’m reading this correctly – is that sports “news” and political “news” is equivalent. In my opinion they are not. The idea of being a “fan” is to lose one’s objectivity. Pro Rasslin’ has taken that irrational fanaticiam, amplified 10 or 20 times, and distilled that aspect of sports into its pure essences – fanaticism. It’s theater, pure and simple. The very idea that any of us outside the organization have any clue as to why and how personnel decisions or business decision are made is an exercise in self-delusion. Tabs’s response to " (why can’t) Dolans leverage their family’s cable experience" implies that the Dolan brothers don’t even offer each other business advice. I’m not sure if this is or is not true. In the end I believe only the Dolan brothers themselves know how much they advise one another. It’s hubris to think that any of us – me, Tabs, Hoynes, Ocker – have any idea how this dynamic works.
What Mr. Yarnevic is bitchin’ about here is this: How in the hell did the Paul Dolan family take a perennial pennant contender and turn it into a 97-loss team? And there are good and understandable reasons – well maybe not all that good or understandable – reasons. But first you have to convince Mr. Yarnevic to drop his irrational fandom. If you do that successfully, then why should he give a hot damn about a bunch of guys he’s never met who just happen to all wear hats decorated with a caricature of a native American who may or may not be playing for the Cleveland club in the forseeable future? You’re asking a guy who rabidly engages in an irrational past time to be rational. It’s a fool’s errand.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
My bad, didn’t mean to imply that they’re equivalent. Obviously they’re not, and I’d be the last to say so. (One of the problems is similar, though, and that’s writing for an 8th or 5th or whatever pathetic grade it is level.)
You’re right, Chuck, none of us ultimately know — because we aren’t the decision makers — the exact reason why things happen. That’s also true in pretty much everything in life, but does that mean we should be totally irrational about processes instead of trying to understand them intelligently and analytically? If the former, well, I’ve got an ex-governor for you.
Furthermore, you seem to imply that people who aren’t morons are in some way not as rabidly engaged with the Indians, which is just patently absurd and flies in the face of this entire website.
What Mr. Yarnevic should be ‘bitchin about is this, even if he doesn’t know it: the inability of agenda-and-impression setters to properly explain the mechanics of baseball to him, both on the macro and micro levels. That being said, there are ways for Mr. Yarnevic to better understand the game, but he’s not seeking them out. Maybe he’s a product of the larger baseball-media culture, but it still makes him a lazy, ignorant fan.
And that should never be celebrated.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 18, 2010 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions
that people who aren’t morons are in some way not as rabidly engaged with the Indians
Didn’t mean to imply this at all. Here’s my point: being a baseball fan is in and of itself irrational. We’re all – LGTers, cleveland.com writers, sports fans everywhere – engaged in an irrational activity. Why should I give a damn about some guys I don’t know who don’t know me and are not even from the same part of the world as me? What do I need to know about “my” team, other than when and where they play next? What I know is little more than the grudge match details of the “Hulk” versus the “Undertaker”. To use junkballers analogy, it’s a masterbatory exercise.
The business of sports, like the business of “news” reporting is about business. Selling tickets, papers or website hits, that’s the goal. None of these folks have any “higher calling” than this.
So in the end Mr. Ocker is right, Mr. Yannevic rang up another web hit, or bought another paper or attended another Indians game. That’s all that really matters to Ocker, Hoynes or Dolan. It’s irrational and I get the joke. But I still care. Crazy, huh?
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
We disagree about news reporting, but that’s neither here nor there. I can get behind all the rest.
by Gradyforpresident on Apr 18, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
What you’re really getting at is that the whole idea of having a higher calling is passé. But it was not always so. The concept of public service, even within a well paying profession, used to be quite real.
Partisan reporting has been around since the beginning of this country (for instance, Canton, a small city even in its heyday, used to have a Democratic paper and a Whig/Republican paper), and although there was the veneer of impartiality in the 20th century, it was never truly that way. The quality of reporting, though, seems to have degraded considerably in the last 30 years.
Having two newspapers with opposing views ironically seems to have been replicated by the current Fox/MSNBC cable news channels.
I’m not sure if the quality of reporting (and by extension, sports writing) has declined. Maybe our expectations have changed.
Since WWII the percentage of Americans who have college degrees has skyrocketed and I think this deeper exposure to knowledge helps us recognize that what passes for journalism (and sports writing) today is little more than pablum. I chuckle when I think how the kind of information, statistics, and discussions we have on LGT would have been received when I was growing up in the 1950s. Even today the impression I get is that most LGT readers are better educated than most.
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on Apr 19, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
You may be right about the quality of news reporting, but most of my interest has been in the sports department, and I notice a big difference when I look at some of the old columns from the 1950s and earlier with the equivalent ones today, especially in the quality of the writing.
A friend of mine insists that Gresham’s Law applied to scribblers: Bad writing drives out good.
by YoDaddyWags on Apr 19, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
The pathetic quality of work of my peers and its glowing reception by faculty was certainly one reason I left the Scripps School of Journalism in disgust. I went into Scripps wanting to be a sportswriter, being told all through the application process about what high standards they had and how competitive it was and how prestigious. I was appalled when I actually got here. So yeah, I can absolutely see how Hoynes and Ocker have jobs, because there isn’t anyone better in the wings.
I think there was a time when a newspaper job was a soft gig. You had little pressure to file stories, you could be away for long stretches of the day (at the racetrack, the movies, taking a nap, in a bar) and you could keep your job by doing the bare minimum.
you could keep your job by doing the bare minimum.
I once had a colleague (in government work, not journalism) who liked to brag that his policy was to do “the bare minimum, and then . . . just a little bit less.”
by ken from alexandria on Apr 20, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Socker: Evan should go back to what he did before television.
Ingraham: What’d Evan do before television?
Socker: NOTHING!
BOTH: Bwo-ho-ho-ho-ho!
by fleerdon on Apr 18, 2010 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions 7 recs
I knew I could count on you to back me up on this.
-Erik
by drerikbrady on Apr 19, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Once upon a time, I spent a lot of time and energy reacting to these mailbags. It’s not worth it…Ocker isn’t changing his style, the editors at the ABJ are apparently OK with it, and it’s much better to spend your time reading other things.
by Ryan on Apr 18, 2010 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’d bet Hoynes and Ocker are as tired of idiotic letters from idiot readers as anyone. Maybe even moreso. It’s easier to go for the cheap laugh than it is to assume a mantle of responsibility, and it’s more fun. I don’t think sportswriters have a duty to inform and enlighten their dumber readers. Patrick of Lakewood seems pretty stupid—as if none of his suggestions would have occurred to anyone who makes an actual living running a baseball team—but I don’t see the necessity of Hoynes having to explain to every lunatic the finer points of corporate finance. I think there is a confusion here about the stupidity of the public and the stupidity of Hoynes and Ocker (Ocker I’m not so sure about).
Yarnevic, ignorant as he may be about the technical realities of the current economic system, actually presents some interesting ideas on how to increase income possibilities.
Blake: Thanks to you, I am damaged beyond repair!!
I just meant for STO … trying to negotiate the Cavs contract away from FSN for one.
Blake: Thanks to you, I am damaged beyond repair!!
I thought they tried to get the Cavs a couple years ago, or at least there was talk that they might, but the Cavs resigned with FSN Ohio for a long-term deal. I tried to find details about their TV contract online but I couldn’t find anything.
by Buckeye Brad on Apr 19, 2010 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions
The regional sports network took a huge gamble three years ago when they ripped up the remaining three years on their contract and doubled the rights fees it paid to the Cavs. According to one source, that contract, which drew gasps from some in the industry when it was signed, runs for 10 years at a cost of $25 million.
Thanks. That’s looking like a great deal as long as LeBron is in Cleveland.
by Buckeye Brad on Apr 19, 2010 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t think it hasn’t occurred to them? Also, “negotiating,” in this sense, means outpaying. Why buy a product at the top? Why would Fox allow one of the best sports commodities ever to get away? That’s like buying Bulls programming when Michael Jordan was in his prime.
Except if Jordan were a 50-50 shot to go play somewhere else the next season.
Come on, four billion!
If you think it’s really 50/50, you haven’t been paying attention
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Apr 20, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
When I think about how much coverage Lebron-to-Knicks has gotten over the last couple of years, it makes me chuckle.
Not at all. Every event in the world doesn’t have a 50% probability of happening. Why would it have to be 50/50?
by Buckeye Brad on Apr 20, 2010 5:19 PM EDT up reply actions
You’re right, I haven’t. I really don’t like the NBA and only have a passing interest in the Cavs because of their home city. I have almost no knowledge of what the word is about LeBron’s future and was instead just trying to follow up on the point that this may be the worst possible time to buy the rights to cover the Cavs.
Come on, four billion!
The rights aren’t for sale anyway, so this is really a moot point, unless STO is going to pay significantly more than Fox and buy out Fox’s remaining years on the contract.
I suppose long-term STO could bid for the contract when it expires, the attempt being to build the pre-eminent Ohio sports network, Cavs included.
Blake: Thanks to you, I am damaged beyond repair!!
So if you built a Ohio sports network with exclusive rights to the Cavs, the Tribe, the Browns, the Blue Jackets, the Reds, the Bengals, all the OSU sports teams and all the skin flicks on Cinemax, it would be worth about 10% of what YES is worth now.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Population of state of Ohio: 11.4 million. Population of New York-Newark-Bridgeport, New York-New Jersey-Connecticut-Pennsylvania Combined Statistical Area (CSA): 22.2 million.
Forget it. You’re right. We’re eternally screwed. Woe to innovation! Woe to the entrepreneurial spirit!
Blake: Thanks to you, I am damaged beyond repair!!
If you’re from Cleveland and wanna make a fortune do what two other successful Clevelanders have done. Go to New York, buy a prominant sports team, and link it to a cable network you own/control. Voila – instant billionaire!
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Apr 22, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You can’t make the Indians compete with the Yankees by “growing your business.” The game is rigged and requires structural adjustments.
by odradek on Apr 22, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, when I grew my business in the last few years, it seemed the Indians just got worse. Then I tried dive-bombing the business during the recession. That hasn’t worked either.
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