Player Development and the 2010 Tribe
The performances, both good and bad of our young players this season, has obviously sparked a lot of debate about who should play where and with what frequency. I'm on record regarding what I think should be done with Masterson (AAA), LaPorta (DL) and Marson (stick it out till June), but I wanted to explain my logic a little more fully.
The Indians, like every organization, although perhaps more so given the economic disadvantages they face, have to generate as much internal value in their system as possible. That means the need to be better at turning talent into major league performance than their competitors. Part of this means doing their best to get players to perform to their peak value...what I think of as player development. But part of it is also being efficient in how the organization uses its resources, in this case its players, in the context of giving them playing time and assigning them spots (or not) on the major league and 40-man roster.
Given the situation of the 2010 Indians - not competitive - an emphasis should obviously be placed on player development. How do we get guys like LaPorta, Santana, Masterson, Rondon et al. to turn into the best players they can be? But decisions about player development still need to be made in the larger context of organizational assets and roster utilization.
The Indians came into 2010 spring training with about 9 legitimate starting pitching options - guys who have had success at the big league level or with at least a full season of AA exposure. The Indians currently have, in addition to their five starters, three guys in Columbus who fit this description (Rondon, Carrasco and Gomez) plus two guys who would if they were on the roster (Pino and Lewis). Not all of these guys are equal in their potential value and performance to date, but they are all there. In addition, these give guys represent the beginning of the Indians pitching depth, not the end of it. In 2011, Kelvin De La Cruz (currently on the 40-man) will be one step closer to Cleveland, and Nick Hagadone will almost assuredly be joining him on the roster. In addition, guys like Connor Graham, Paolo Espino and Santo Frias will be making their respective cases for roster spots. In 2012 you can add Scott Barnes, Zach Putnam, Alex Perez, Bryan Price and Eric Berger. In 2013 that list includes Alex White, Joe Gardner, Jason Knapp and TJ House. A lot can change between now and then, but my point is that the Indians will likely be forced to make decisions based on roster pressure and that the current assemblage of pitchers on the Indians roster has a limited window of time to be evaluated. The Indians need to prioritize player development but they need to do so in the context of the Indians current structural position.
Moving back to the performance of the Indians youngsters currently on the active roster, I think a series of questions can be asked of each:
1. Is the player healthy?
2. Are the struggles suggestive of any systemic shortcoming?
3. What options exist?
I think it is important to put young players in positions in which they are likely to succeed. Ultimately, they have no choice but to succeed against competition at the big league level, but there are different ways of getting them to that point. If the player is not 100% healthy, and the injury is enough to affect performance to a significant degree, why have them play through it? Playing hurt does not seem like a good route to long-term success for a young player. I think in this context there is good reason to be suspicious of LaPorta's health and give him a DL trip, with only as long enough of a rehab assignment as necessary to get him ready again. LaPorta isn't young, he has succeeded at every level except the big leagues, and I don't think he has any systemic shortcomings in his approach. Get him healthy, then get him back.
I have no reason to think Marson, Masterson, or the recently demoted Michael Brantley are hurt. There are reasons to be suspicious of real systemic shortcomings in each case. The question of how best to deal with that depends on details specific to each player and the position they find themselves in.
Clearly the decision has already been made on Brantley. A guy with a career minor league K% under 10.0 shouldn't be striking out 28% of the time. Furthermore, from an organizational asset perspective, there is motivation to give Brantley more AAA time. Done.
Marson's systemic problems are that he has, and likely will have, very little power. His immediate problem is that he flat out sucks...behind the plate (it seems) and at the plate. Marson is young enough and has a level of experience that I would not be opposed to giving him the Brantley treatment. But again, his development has to be considered in a broader organizational context, and that context includes Carlos Santana. Santana is more important, and keeping him in Columbus till June is more important than whatever happens to Marson. So Marson sticks around until June, gets the chance to sink or swim, and then gets the Brantley treatment.
Masterson is of course the most complicated one. He is, in some ways, having a tremendous amount of success. You don't strike out 11.4/9 IP without being good. Unfortunately, it is hard to be good while walking more than 5 guys/game and getting raked by lefties. These problems are not new. I have argued in the past that Masterson's developmental path with the Red Sox allowed him to reach the majors and have some success without having to learn how to get lefties out. I stand by that. Furthermore, his current problems are not simply a matter of poor command. His command is really only a problem against lefties. Against righties he keeps his walks to a reasonable level (3/9IP), and more importantly maintains an excellent K/BB ratio (4.75). Against lefties he walks an unsustainable number of guys (~6/9IP) and records fewer Ks than BBs. Masterson does not know how to pitch to lefties and is afraid of doing so.
Yes, you can leave Masterson in Cleveland and give him the chance to figure out how to get out major league lefties since that is ultimately what he needs to do, but is it the best option? Particularly, is it the best option given the organizational context? I tend to go with 'no' to both questions.
Clearly I have no special insight into what allows a player to successfully navigate the nexus between AAA and the majors, but I do think that pitching at the AAA level is easier. AAA hitters are easier and the weight of each performance is minimized (quick - tell me what the Columbus Clippers record is?). I'll refer back again to Will Carroll's comments on the difference between pitching at the big league and minor league level:
Why are minor league innings any different than major league innings? There are only theories, but the best and most testable center around a selection bias. A pitcher good enough to go over 100 innings in the major leagues is almost by definition a quality pitcher. We know that major league hitters are harder to get out than minor league hitters, not to mention the stress of pitching in front of big crowds. The type of pitcher that can get over 100 innings in the majors is likely to be coasting through the minors on less than his best effort. He’s seldom taxed. He’s seldom forced to bear down or throw long innings. Granted, we don’t know this is the reason why and mathematically and physiologically, it shouldn’t be the case, but until someone can develop a working model for translation, we have to simply ignore those minor league innings. It should be noted that Verducci includes minor league innings in his formula.
Let Masterson get righted against easier competition, let him experiment with pitches and approaches, and then let him go against major league lefties. I don't advocate taking him out of the rotation, and I don't mean to imply that any demotion is the final word on him this season.
Maybe if the Indians only had a bunch of retread Scott Elartons in AAA I would feel different. But they don't. As outlined above the Indians have enough of a surplus of pitching that there should be an organizational prerogative in evaluating them...and part of the evaluation will hopefully involve facing big league pitchers. I believe the most efficient use of the Indians current active and 40-man roster is to allow for a fair amount of flexibility in the last spot or two of the rotation. Give guys 4-6 starts and see how they fare. Meanwhile, give guys you have already identified as parts of the future (i.e. Masterson) the chance to develop a more successful path. I am not arguing to throw someone like Rondon, who is currently struggling, into Cleveland, and even Carrasco is a long-term asset who needs to be handled carefully. But why not Pino? Why not Carrasco if he continues to do well? Why not give SLewis a chance to take Jamey Wright's place? For some of these guys the chance is now or never. The Indians have a wall, the Indians have spaghetti, and the Indians aren't really worried about what they are eating right now...so why not (with some careful guidance) throw a lot of it against the wall and give it a chance to stick?
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Typo on 4th paragraph end of line 1.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
where in jersey you from? im from east brunswick
by silverbackAXP on Apr 26, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
i think the dumbest, easiest answer is: time. how many words have been spent on giving marte an extended chance? it’s april 26th. these guys have played 6 games when they got to sleep in their own beds this season. is it really productive to start shuffling the deck before the calendar turns to may?
regarding laporta, are we just assuming the team is lying about injuries again? i always find it difficult to get into this game. it feels too much to me like House kidnapping the soap star because of something he noticed on TV. are we really House and the Indians are just a bunch of clueless doctors?
by Brick. on Apr 26, 2010 5:19 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I guess the problem for me with sending Masterson to AAA is that even if he goes down there and dominates left-handed hitters, I really don’t think it will give me any sort of confidence that he can do the same as soon as he is brought back up to the big league level. In fact, I would bet that if he were to go to AAA, he might in fact perform very well against AAA hitters both left and right-handed almost immediately. Short of developing a new pitch down there, I just don’t think there is much benefit to sending him down. He should be working with Belcher in Cleveland right now, recognizing what he has to do and where his obvious weakness is.
by Roger Dorn on Apr 26, 2010 5:30 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with this. If Masterson is sent down, it should be for specific development reasons (e.g. tweaking his arsenal or his delivery), not just generically for spending time there facing left-handed hitters. A Spring Training style, results-are-irrelevant-we-only-care-about-process mindset.
by Logodaedalus on Apr 26, 2010 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
You’d send Masterson to AAA for a “specific development reason,” which would be to work on a pitch (a change-up, almost certainly) that would give him a chance to get left-handed batters out. He has to have such a pitch if he’s to have any future as a starter, or even as a reliever.
My problem with the Masterson-to-AAA scenario is that we don’t have anyone ready to replace him in the rotation unless we want to start Carrasco’s service clock, which we, quite reasonably, would rather not do.
by ken from alexandria on Apr 26, 2010 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess my concern is that, I think Masterson goes down and experiences no trouble with AAA lefties. The pitch may be best learned at the ML level.
This is exactly my concern. He goes down, dominates lefties without many any major adjustments, then comes back up and we see no real improvement. And we’ve lost a few months of his development in the process.
by supermarioelia on Apr 26, 2010 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, maybe there’s another pitch in there, maybe there isn’t. My concern is, where’s the evidence of an adjustment with the stuff he’s got? Changing speeds, tweaking his grip on the fastball, something. If it were just the XBHs vs. lefties, I’d say, yeah, his act needs a new trick. But the walks suggest to me that his whole approach is flawed.
by fleerdon on Apr 26, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions
My problem with the Masterson-to-AAA scenario is that we don’t have anyone ready to replace him in the rotation unless we want to start Carrasco’s service clock, which we, quite reasonably, would rather not do.
This seems like a strange thing to say, ‘cause I’ve got to believe that everyone on this board holds at least one of the following beliefs:
1) We’ve actually got good upper level SP depth (see Adam’s article up top)
2) We are not contending in 2010
Yeah, we do have good upper level SP depth, but it’s not like those guys are all that ripe. Seems to me Carrasco is the only one who’s really ready, and because we’re not contending in 2010, it makes no sense to start his service clock. Say, I wonder how Adam Miller’s finger is feeling these days.
by ken from alexandria on Apr 26, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Speaking of Adam Miller, are we putting too much emphasis on clock for pitchers?
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 26, 2010 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t think we’re putting much emphasis at all on any of our pitcher’s clocks. We brought up CC last fall, and its not like he’s clearly better than any of our current ML starters.
I was musing about it generally—that pitchers shouldn’t be given as much deference, for the usual TINSTAAP reasons. I agree with you (and Andrew in another thread)—let Carrasco dominate AAA for while. I’d bring up Pino and see if he’s a fourth starter type or just fringy depth. If anything, he could complete the bridge game with Laffey, Talbot, and Huff.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 26, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions
This is a very shrewd comment. Yes.
by ken from alexandria on Apr 26, 2010 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
To be clear, I meant us as in LGT, not the Indians.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2010 6:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Are there any pitchers we have talked about clock concerns for? I bring up time constraints in the context of rule 5 eligibility and 40-man roster space – not service time considerations.
Well, Carrasco, in the comment above me. I also remember something about Laffey in the offseason/spring, although it seems silly now.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Apr 27, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Way too early to make moves on these young players. Now is the time for our players to try and make the necessary adjsutments. If they fail to make the adjustments in the next 3 weeks, then you make a roster move.
Justin needs to develop another pitch or arm slot against lefties. Maybe have him study Jake Peavy’s game tapes for some inspiration/direction. Either way, his control in the lower part of the strike zone needs to be more precise. The other idea would be to have him pitch to Redmond as well. It worked fairly well for Talbot and Carmona… so far.
The hitting is pretty atrocious right now. Not sure what else to say about that. I suggest we consult mooncamping for some advice in this department.
Baseball fans are junkies, and their heroin is the statistic. - Robert S. Wieder
Question
When would you project the Tribe bring up Carlos Santana?
Just for fun, I took a look at another sidearming RHP who dominated RHB, Dennis Eckersley. His first 12 years were spent starting, and RHB OPSed 609, LHB 769. 52% of PAs were by LHB, and in 9 of 12 seasons Eck faced more LHB than RHB.
He then spent 12 years in the pen; OPS for RHB declined to 543, and LHB, 696, with about the same disparity as when he was a starter. As a reliever, 52% of PAs were by RHB.
For whatever reason, between 1988-1992 Eckersley put his career LHB OPS of 760+ behind him and put together a 5 year OPS versus LHB of 552. Then he got old.
Masterson’s splits are 579/881. That LHB OPS is higher than any Eck compiled as a starter, but it’s not out of the realm of possibility that he can shave 100 points off it, especially considering the BABIP numbers. 51% of Masterson’s PAs, by the way, are by LHBs.
Maybe we need to load up some Eck film to go with Masterson’s powerpoint lesson.
Their delivery is similar, but Masterson sinks the ball while Eckersley didn’t. The sinking part of the equation is equally as hurtful against lefties as the delivery.
To others – I don’t think you touch the delivery. I can’t imagine that would work. What is the precedent for it working?
Watching Columbus…
Gomez just escaped the first with a DP that came when Hodges dropped a pop fly and the runners screwed up the infield fly rule. Gomez did not look good in the first. Couldn’t find the zone.
Also! There’s a nice not on Chiz in today’s Minor League Blog on BP if you’re into that. Just quotes his stats, says he looks great and the HRs will be here soon.
I started this Masterson insanity yesterday and after a day of reflection, I still feel the same; however I think its more simple for me then I thought previously. I just think if he stays up with the big league club, he might lose every bit of confidence to get left handed batters out at all. Assuming he continues to get pounded. Not that it really matters because the quotes from Acta today look like he is staying up for awhile. I guess thats why they get paid the big bucks to make choices like this.
I just think if he stays up with the big league club, he might lose every bit of confidence to get left handed batters out at all.
I’ve seen several references to this here on LGT. I have a slight problem with it, which is that in everything I’ve ever read about Masterson, I have not seen a shred of a trace of an iota of an indication that he has the kind of personality where this would be an issue. Quite the contrary, in fact, and it may well be that this is part of the Tribe’s thinking.
I would say that when people fret about a player losing confidence, what they are really talking about is their own loss of confidence in that player. But, you know, some of these guys aren’t ninnies.
Frankly, I think it’s the view you have from the pitcher’s mound when you are a sinkerballer. When the RH batter is up, it almost forces you to stay on top of the ball because if you don’t, you’ll hit the batter. With a lefty hitter, you’re not afraid of hitting the guy, and you’re actually trying to stay away from him. Both of our other sinkerballers have higher career walk rates against lefites. Westbrook’s is basically double. Carmona’s walk rate against lefties has plummeted this year, probably coinciding with his shift on the rubber.
It seemed like Masterson was trying to get inside on lefties yesterday, but was having trouble finding the strike zone. Looking at pictures of Eck and Masterson, the angle of the wrist seems different—Masterson’s wrist curled over the ball, Eckersley’s angled up more. If this isn’t just an illusion from several still images, would Masterson’s wrist position create the sink that Eck’s ball doesn’t have? And why is the sinker part hurtful? Isn’t the sink intentional?
Since most lefties are good low-ball hitters, they can hit a sinker, especially coming from a side-arming right-hander. They’d have more trouble with a “rising” or four-seam fastball.
Which begs the question, why would lefties more than righties be good low-ball hitters? Selected for the trait? Something about facing a preponderance of RHP?
The dominant-hand theory is what I’ve always believed. You see a lot more right-handed throwers hitting left-handed than left-handed throwers hitting right-handed.
The implication being that it’s easier to get a good swing low if you’ve got your dominant hand at the base of the bat? It’s not clear to me why that would be true, but I’m not much of a hitter (understatement).
by Logodaedalus on Apr 28, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The sinker moves downward, but it also moves away from lefties, at least for the most part. Since on lower pitches (and most pitches, actually) the barrel of the bat is lower than the handle, when the ball sinks that way it runs right into the barrel.
And I don’t mean to imply that it’s necessarily always hurtful…it’s just that lefties will generally hit for a relatively high BA against right handed sinkerballers…probably more than the normal platoon split. But notice that I’m not actually using any data here, so take that for what it’s worth.
Well, you are correct in that listening to Masterson and reading quotes I am not sure he currently lack confidence. Infact to the contrary, I think he might have to much confidence. Like not being able to accept the fact that he needs to learn how to throw a changeup and work on other pitches and that a fastball and slider have to be accompanied by another pitch for him to be sucessful at this level. Also, usually people who have a lot of confidence are the first to be broken when things get rough. Just a thought
David Clyde is usually cited as a warning to those who call for young pitchers, but I think he may be sui generis. The Athletics decided they weren’t going to harm their young arms (or psyches) by having them pitch in the big leagues. I don’t think Masterson is going to freak out. He’s 25 years old, not 15.
I’ve decided I like Laffey as a reliever. He’ll just be fresher when we inevitably need him to start in the second half.
by fleerdon on Apr 26, 2010 7:21 PM EDT reply actions
Here are the numbers for Masterson in his career:
Minors: 256.2 IP, more than half of those below AA, only 9 innings at AAA. 36 of his 53 minor league appearances were as a starter, so almost 1.5 minor league seasons.
Lefties did better against him than rights in his minor league experience, but he did well against both (3.77 FIP vs. lefties, 2.83 vs. righties). Interestingly, Masterson had a better K-rate vs. righties (7.85 vs. 5.73 K/9), but solid control vs. both (2.15 vs. 2.21 BB/9). So just 9 innings above AA, and no control differential between R/L.
Fast forward to the majors and Masterson has 236.2 IP. Only 29 of his 82 appearances have been as a starter. Lefties have, of course, teed off on him (.881 OPS against, vs. .579). While his K-rate has improved relative to his minor league career, he has maintained the edge against righties (9.02 vs. 6.87 K/9). What I think is damning is his walk numbers. His control vs. righties looks like his minor league numbers (2.98 BB/9), but his numbers against lefties have skyrocketed (5.65 BB/9) and are currently at an all-time high. You can make a stronger argument that Masterson has gotten worse against lefties than that he has shown improvement.
hoynsie #Indians lineup: SS Cabrera, CF Sizemore, RF Choo, DH Hafner, 1B Branyan, LF Kearns, 3B Peralta, 2B Valbuena, C Redmond, P Huff.
Brian Fuentes just returned to the Angels. He’s the only lefty in the pen, but he is also nominaly the closer. But if our 4 lefties line up in the 7th or 8th (and its close), I’ve got to think that Scioscia will call on Fuentes and let Rodney close. We’ll see.
I have a question. Kidding aside if we are trying to develop Marson shouldn’t he be catching everybody but Carmona?
I just learned via AN via Fangraphs that a handful of pitchers actually move on the rubber on the basis of the batter’s handedness. One of the most famous of these is Ben Sheets.
Seems relevant, yes?
by afh4 on Apr 26, 2010 8:18 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
solution to masterson's problem
i have been wondering this for years and nobody has yet been able to give me an answer to this question – where is doug jones? the man was the master of the circle change-up which was just a devastating pitch when jones was on his game in his years as the tribe’s closer. i would like to see if the tribe could maybe hire him as a roving minor league pitching coach to teach the circle change-up to all of their pitchers, not just masterston, but especially him. he could use it as his out-pitch against lefties and as a counter to his fastball against righties. you think he strikes out a lot of hitters now? with the circle change, he just might approach the level of a mike scott when he learned to throw the split-finger fastball. we can only hope. go tribe!!!
I thought I heard recently of an organization that had a coach teach a changeup to all of its pitching prospects. Twins or Red Sox maybe? I forget.
I read that article, too, and can’t remember either. I’m considering making myself a delicious link database just to track things like this.
This is not simply a matter of pedagogy. I’m sure the Indians teach changeups to everyone, too. You think it hasn’t occurred to a major league team to teach a guy the changeup?
Some guys can’t throw it, or throw bad ones. Even people who have spent many hours with Doug Jones or Mario Soto can’t throw the pitch as well as the masters.
I’m baffled why people think the Indians wouldn’t have already brought in the best changeup teacher in the world if they thought it would help.
I’ve already committed that money to buy Wedgie that life-sized silver Casey Blake bobblehead.
And to a lesser degree, Chris Gimenez.
by Logodaedalus on Apr 28, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, this is my take on the whole “Make Masterson learn a new pitch thing!” I suspect it is extremely rare for a guy to have gotten to this level and still have a pitch he could learn and throw effectively in less than a couple of years.
I do not understand SBN’s approach to promoting individual blog’s work. I have seen so much good work go unmentioned and so much “eh” work get pumped up (not that this is “eh” although it certainly seems, um, specific for a broad audience).

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