Santana called up, Marson sent down
Carlos Santana will be called up tomorrow, according to Enrique Rojas of ESPN Deportes.
Steven Strasburg vs. Carlos Santana? Why not.
almost 2 years ago
xrickx
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The good news is that Carlos comes up with little-to-no expectations, just a small cog in an offense already churning out 8 runs in an inning and 9th-inning rallies.
by tabler84 on Jun 11, 2010 4:50 AM EDT reply actions 3 recs
Will make for a very exciting weekend.
One day I'll get over to watch the Tribe play
by new zealand tribe fan on Jun 11, 2010 5:21 AM EDT reply actions
Buster Olney just confirmed via twitter.
Anything in life is possible, except for skiing through revolving doors.
by MooneysRebellion on Jun 11, 2010 7:06 AM EDT reply actions
Foolhardy. A Strasburg fastball connecting with Santana’s swing is similar to crossing the streams of a proton pack.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jun 11, 2010 7:22 AM EDT reply actions 4 recs
Christmas!
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 11, 2010 7:42 AM EDT reply actions
Carlosmas?
You are reading my signature.
by rolub on Jun 11, 2010 9:30 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Put on rally capikah, here comes Santanukkah!
Its so much fun-akkah to celebrate Santanukkah!
Watch out ESPNikkah, you’ll be highlighting the Trib-ukkah
I hope we get a winnikah, on each lovely, lovely Santanukah.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jun 11, 2010 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If this is true, the Indians FO should have planned this a bit better. Give yourself more than 12 hours to sell tickets.
It’s not Strasburg, but I completely agree with this.
by supermarioelia on Jun 11, 2010 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Though as I look at 2004 attendances, the Indians didn’t really get much of a boost the first week that Sizemore was up, they probably aren’t expecting one here either.
Your average clecommer will read this news and say some variation of this:
Who cares? If he’s any good, Dolan and Cheapiro will just trade him before the end of the season.
I would hope they don’t take this defeatist attitude…
by supermarioelia on Jun 11, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
As if on cue, here’s a gem from a dotcommer called “nvafan:”
This article is missing one important fact. Once called up how long will it be until Dolan trades Santana? Just curious. We’d hate to have a blue chip athlete on the team. No. We want slow average guys with a lot of up side and a good locker room presence.
in case you’re interested, there are plenty more groaners where that came from. http://www.cleveland.com/tribe/index.ssf/2010/06/future_star_carlos_santana_sho.html
Before taking Pro-Acta, please consult your doctor. Do not taunt Pro-Acta.
The clecom angle is actually, “Hey, how’s that Cliff Lee trade looking now? Marson’s a bum.”
Steel Nick
There seem to be several angles. There’s also the, “It figures we send Marson down once he starts playing better…” line being spouted by several people.
Before taking Pro-Acta, please consult your doctor. Do not taunt Pro-Acta.
but he hasn’t been better…He was looking possibly mediocre for a couple weeks in may but has since sunk down to as bad as he started…He has been terrible so far in june and almost as bad in the last 2 weeks (going back into may)
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Was Grady ever as big a prospect as Santana is right now?
by jakesinger777 on Jun 11, 2010 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You don’t think?
Grady was rated #9 in the world coming into the 2004 season. By the end of the year, he was no longer eligible. At the time he was called up, he was probably a Top 5 prospect, as Carlos is now.
Grady was 22.0 years old at the time of his callup. Carlos is 24.2. Carlos has bigger numbers in Triple-A and is a catcher, of course, but I can’t say he’s a better prospect at this moment than Grady was.
I don’t think Grady was as universally regarded as Santana is currently. There were a lot of questions as to whether he would hit for power in the majors, and a lot of guys rated a White Sox center field (whose name is escaping me now) as the better outfield prospect at the time.
It was Jeremy Reed.
Baseball Prospectus ranked Reed #2, and Sizemore #24. Sizemore was loved by the scouts, but not the stats guys.
Yeah, well, the stats guys thought Marte was a lot better than the scouts, too.
by Jay on Jun 11, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sizemore was definitely not as hyped as Santana. After all, he was seen as the throw-in in the Colon deal, the nice surprise that most fans found out about years later.
Sizemore was called up as a much younger prospect with a lot more projection ahead of him. That deflated his Triple-A numbers, which of course deflates the hype. (Heck, he wasn’t even a .300 hitter!)
Sizemore also started that 2004 season with some kind of a stomach flu that had him well underperforming for all of April, from what I can recall. That too deflated his numbers that season, which again would have deflated the hype.
In sum, even if Sizemore had been rated slightly better as a prospect by analysts, he sure as hell wasn’t popping up a 1044 OPS. Sizemore’s season high in HR was 13, the year before in Double-A. Santana has 13 HR right now.
Hoynsie just confirmed on Twitter Santana up and Marson down.
"The delusional get what they deserve." - afh4
I think you have to believe that Redmond gets jettisoned at some point this season. It’s not as though he’s going to be Fausto’s personal catcher for the next three seasons. He’s going to have to learn to pitch without him at some point.
Before taking Pro-Acta, please consult your doctor. Do not taunt Pro-Acta.
I would have liked him to develop in AAA anyways but we really didn’t have anyone in the majors and the development of Santana was more important to the organization. Marson has shown he may not be ready yet for the majors and he was never in AAA to prove a ton. I say, give him a chance to develop and prove himself in columbus.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
Chills
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 11, 2010 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions
This has to be weird for Vic. He gets traded and his replacement is a switch hitting catcher with his batting stance AND his old number.
by hyphens on Jun 11, 2010 2:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It’s like when they tried to pass off Omar Epps as Wesley Snipes in Major League 2. The casual fans bought it, but we’ll know better…
"You are an LGT success story" -- Jay
by Turkmenbashi on Jun 11, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
I’ll be honest, I’ll miss Marson’s arm. It’s nice to have someone that can gun down runners pretty effectively. But that alone doesn’t overcome his other deficits.
I figures he would make his debut next week while I am the college world series. Pretty excited I get to see it.
I’ve been trying in vain to think of a new twist on the Phelps joke. Nothin.
by supermarioelia on Jun 11, 2010 5:17 PM EDT up reply actions
From Castro… Have we heard this before?
It is also possible that both backstops could find themselves on the Indians’ active roster, with Santana spending some time at first base.
Before taking Pro-Acta, please consult your doctor. Do not taunt Pro-Acta.
It would be pretty funny if Santana ends up getting more playing time at first than LaPorta did.
Steel Nick
Once we trade Branyan and Kearns, then LaPorta has an everyday position no matter where Santana plays.
"The delusional get what they deserve." - afh4
by woodsmeister on Jun 11, 2010 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, he was once a third baseman.
Armando Galarraga gave up a 420-foot drive to Mark Frickin' Grudzielanik.
Let’s calm down a little here. My hope is that he’s all that, but if he isn’t – not right outta the box anyway – it won’t be the End of the World either.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I’m just advocating a little caution is all. Remember Marte? LaPorta? Miller? I’m not saying that Santana’s not a better prospect than those guys – well maybe not Miller – but the crash from those highs was painful.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Ok ok. One of these days I just need to put a disclaimer in my signature: “All positive statements concerning future Cleveland Indian play are understood to be speculative and subject to any and all injuries, collapses, curses, and other tragedies.”
I’m just a little leery of comparing Santana with Strasburg. It might take a call-up or two before Santana turns into a monster. That was true of Belle, Thome and Manny – IIRC – and will probably be true of Santana as well.
Strasburg’s start has few precedents. Equaling it is a hell of a lot to ask of a converted third baseman.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Who said Santana’s debut was going to equal Strasburg’s? They will, however, appear in the same game on Sunday. I’ll settle for Jason Heyward.
Who cares about the fact that we got an amazing prospect for Blake though, right?
LGT's resident moderate Yankee hating fan.
by Joe. on Jun 11, 2010 4:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Right now, today, if Santana plays as well as Blake (OPS .793) I’ll be estatic.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Yes, because how they do this year is what matters, not what their overall production is over the next few seasons.
Right now is reality. The next few seasons is strictly conjecture. See: Miller, Adam.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
and the reality is that Casey Blake is 12 years older with a lot more wear on his tires.
I teach good life choices. That’s why I almost didn’t graduate High School.
And was going to be a free agent the next year.
"sometimes the internet is hard for me." - ClemsonGirl
by world dictator on Jun 11, 2010 11:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, but unlike Marte, Santana is clearly going to actually be on the field.
"The delusional get what they deserve." - afh4
by woodsmeister on Jun 11, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
This sounds so familiar … where have I heard this before …
Yes, but unlike Marte, LaPorta is clearly going to actually be on the field.
They have to learn some time, right?
"The delusional get what they deserve." - afh4
by woodsmeister on Jun 11, 2010 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
No mas.
"The delusional get what they deserve." - afh4
by woodsmeister on Jun 12, 2010 1:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Call me crazy, but Miller has been a little overrated as a prospect, and it seems the legend of his potential continues to grow the further away it gets.
Don’t get me wrong, the stuff was as good as advertised, as were the mix of pitches, the command, and (I assume) the overall competitiveness. Regardless, this is a guy who topped 70 innings in a season exactly twice in his entire pro career.
It was one think to see him as a KDLC type of figure back in 2005 — dreamy stuff, derailed for a year, but hopefully he’ll be back. When he comes back and has a terrific campaign in 2006, what ever could have possessed us to treat him like he was a sure thing?
Here we have a 22-year-old pitching prospect, throws in the high 90s — what could possibly go wrong, right?
Even the normally sober Nate Silver chimed in with, “The Indians’ Adam Miller is almost certainly underrated, since his 2005 statistics were muddled by injury.” Silver was basically apologizing for what turned out to be PECOTA’s absolutely correct, objective, and not altogether sunny take on Miller’s future.
I am as guilty as anyone of remaining excited about the guy’s ceiling, but his injury history meant he was never a lock — and TINSTAAPP anyway — and because of that, maybe we never should have considered him a great prospect at all. Maybe it would have been just as accurate to say that he sucked.
All of which is a long way of saying, Santana is a hell of a lot better prospect than Miller. He’s not a pitcher, and he is a catcher, and that alone makes him more valuable.
Using that logic, then Strasburg’s never was much of prospect either.
Here’s some random stats from the Baseball Cube:
Player Name Stat Type Bavg Obp Slg OPS
Matt LaPorta Minor 0.291 0.384 0.557 941
Carlos Santana Minor 0.287 0.395 0.486 881
Now here’s their respective scout rankings:
Carlos Santana Power: 67 Batting: 65 Speed: 37 Contact: 80 Patience: 92
Matt LaPorta Power: 97 Batting: 67 Speed: 25 Contact: 50 Patience: 79
LaPorta’s got the edge in Power and Santana in Contact and Patience
Now I know that there’s a lot more that goes into a player evaluation than just composite statistics over different development periods and one shot scouting reports, but still, these guys have pretty close projections. Is there any real difference in what you should expect from these players in his first 4 or 5 months in the majors? I don’t think so. Santana could easily struggle just like LaPorta did. Of course he could turn into Al Kaline too. My money’s on the former.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Santana has a lot more margin for error, though, since he isn’t just a bat. He’s a catcher, and while he may need refinement in that role, he certainly has the physical gifts for it. LaPorta provides basically no positional or defensive value whatsoever — we’d all be happy if he could be an average left fielder.
I also don’t know that aggregate minor league stats mean very much. I’ve never really understood why people cite them so often. Santana for whatever reason didn’t really take off until the 2008 season, but by now he’s been killing the ball for 2.5 seasons solid. His 2007 numbers, while LaPorta was in college using aluminum, figure heavily into those overall figures.
The composite stats do not include LaPorta’s college numbers. Plus I take more interest in the scout’s evaluation – naturally.
But here’s my point: Santana may have trouble adjusting to Major League pitching, just like LaPorta did. And even if he tears it up his first trip through the league, the other teams will find any weakness he has and exploit it. So I expect him to struggle at some time – anybody else watch Heyward’s ABs against Lariano? Brutal! – but it won’t be the End of the World. It’ll take the rest of the season and maybe part of the next before we know if we got a gem here or not. So I won’t be worried if Carlos struggles early on – I expect it. You should too.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
I might agree with your main point, I just don’t like how you got there.
You make it look like Santana comes in with a worse minor league track record than LaPorta, but that isn’t true.
LaPorta had a 924 OPS in his full season at Double-A, compared with 943 for Santana. Small edge to Santana here.
LaPorta had a 917 OPS in his 93-game season in Triple-A, compared with 1044 OPS for Santana in 57 games. This is a big edge. LaPorta’s numbers weren’t really better than Jordan Brown or Andy Marte’s last year, but Santana is a clear notch above.
Especially notable is Santana’s 18.3% walk rate, which really has a certain “man among boys” quality. He was on pace for something like 32 homers in a short minor league season.
Finally, Santana went through both levels at an age 15 months younger than LaPorta did. That difference, betweeen 23.75 and 25.00, is pretty developmentally significant.
The aggregate minor league stats don’t give you any of this perspective — they give you a larger sample but also a dirtier sample. Yes, Santana still may struggle, but so do established major leaguers. As Ryan notes in the recap, it’s reasonable to say he’s already one of our best hitters.
I’m with Chuck.
This is another benefit of not living and dying by the way our 2011-2012 chances look right now. It makes it a lot easier to be patient with prospects and rookies.
I don’t care what anyone says, I’m still excited.
Though I look right at home, I still feel like an exile
by Manhattan Tribe Fan on Jun 14, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
June 11 #indians lineup: Crowe cf, Choo rf, Santana CA, Branyan 1b, Kearns lf, Hafner dh, Peralta 3b, Valbuena 2b, Donald ss, Westbrook p
about 1 hour ago via web
according to tribeinsider
Went right over my head……
Speaking of which, I’m on a plane right now — my first ever with WiFi. Very nice.
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