If they had kept everybody at least for two more years [after 2007], I think we had a chance of having a really good team. You look back on Cleveland and the only one that's left is Jake [Westbrook]. It's kind of sad to me.
C.C. Sabathia, idiot and baseball pitcher.
The guy who thinks the team should have been kept together for two more years after 2007 is the one who first jumped ship a few months into his imaginary two-year "shoulda-kept-us-togther" time frame with his refusal to sign a contract extension.
Am I missing something?
almost 2 years ago
xrickx
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Or Asdrubal.
He’s right about Trot Nixon, though.
by afh4 on Jul 13, 2010 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thats the Yankee in him. Oh well, still makes him a douche.
Columbus til I die, Columbus til I die. I know I am, I swear I am, Columbus til I die!
"Turner, at midcourt...inside it, at the buzzer, GOT IT!!!!"
We're the Big Ten, who the F@*# are YOU??!?!?!
by Andrew Tolliver on Jul 13, 2010 12:14 AM EDT reply actions
When he says kept everybody, he means a smart strategy would have been to just have Yankee Money, and he doesn’t get why the Indians would be dumb enough not to do that.
Steel Nick
most of cleveland.com for instance.
I hate the steelers the way a mother loves a child.
by notthatnoise on Jul 15, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
What an a-hole.
How obvious does this have to get for him? If he works out an extension with the Indians, we end up with practically the entire 2007 roster together through 2010 — not entirely for the better by the way — except with Cy Clifton replacing Byrd in the rotation. Every other significant player was locked up through 2010.
by Jay on Jul 13, 2010 1:06 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
“Ifthey had kept everybody at least for two more years [after 2007]I had just pitched in the ALCS as well as I pitch against the Orioles in June, I think wehad a chance of having a really good teamdefinitely would have won the World Series,” said Sabathia. “YouI look back on Cleveland andthe only one that’s left is Jake [Westbrook]I think about what a failure I was in that series and how instead of staying and starting what I finished, I ran off to New York so I could have some crazy rich guys buy me a ring. It’s kind of sad to me.”
by NickFantana on Jul 13, 2010 1:06 AM EDT reply actions 12 recs
Why is there any surprise in a mamaluke acting like a mamaluke? After all, he’a a m’uke.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Not only would I give him the one-fingered salute on the Pi’ilani highway at 7AM, but I’d hope the light was green at Mokolele.
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 13, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Apparently, many of these players we root for, many for several seasons, are just flat out stupid. Comments such that these by CC is proof
"Ok everyone listen up! I've just invited Dave to suck it!"
It’s pile on week. Everyone get it all out.
by Roger Dorn on Jul 13, 2010 9:32 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Chuck, mods, anyone, can you help calibrate my reaction to Steinbrenner dying? I don’t want to be too overjoyed or anything…
Actually, thanks for reminding me. I was going to ask the assembled if they could recommend any reading to get more insight into Pekar. All I’ve done is watched the movie and some Letterman YouTube clips.
by NickFantana on Jul 13, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
There’s no better insight into Pekar than the original source. Try American Splendor: The Life and Times of Harvey Pekar, The Best of American Splendor or Our Cancer Year.
I second this. The comics/stories themselves are pieces of him. I read somewhere (I think the Plain Dealer actually) where someone threw out a comparison to Chekhov, and I agree.
You’re right of course, Pekar was the son of Jewish immigrant from Poland. Chekhov was a Russian doctor. Completely different.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
AC is one of the world’s greatest writers of the past 150 years. Pekar, who I like a lot as a writer, isn’t even the greatest Cleveland writer of the past 100 years.
yeah remove the word “comparison”. I should say similarities in perspective within the author’s works. For me, both create a familiar feeling when reading. I sense where the two would be mentioned in the same breadth by some.
No, I know, Chekhov is in a different league when evaluating writers and writer impact on literature.
George Steinbrenner was somebody’s father, grandfather, and husband. His passing, like the passing of all human beings, is a sad occasion. Baseball is merely a children’s game. I’m sure all of us can seperate the significance of one from the other.
A moment of reflection for George’s family, just like any other family, is appropriate.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
Screw that. He lived a long life and generally made people miserable, including his own family by all accounts. The occasion of his death has no tragic elements to it whatsoever, except that it didn’t come soon enough to avoid so badly soiling our national pastime.
by Jay on Jul 13, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Uh Jay, Commissioner Stern is on line 2…
by stuart dean on Jul 13, 2010 5:32 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
That “Philly fan” thing is starting to rub off on you. You need to recalibrate.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
A moment of reflection for George’s family, just like any other family, is appropriate.
It’s just a damn shame that tonight he’ll get no more than a passing mention on Fox.
Steel Nick
ESPN actually canceled PTI today (and ATH, but who cares about that) so they could have a special 1-hour Steinbrenner lovefest. Puke.
by Buckeye Brad on Jul 13, 2010 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
In the end this is a personal family tragedy, and one we’ll all have to face alone someday. The fact that a bunch or braying jackals on ESPN will try to turn it into something else does not lessen the sense of loss felt by the Steinbrenner family. They still deserve our condolences.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
C.C. Sabathia,idiotjackass and baseball pitcher.
Fixed.
"Facebook is bad news. It and Jason Donald both crush dreams." - JRontherim
And…BOOM.
Cue the James Carville scene from “Old School”.
“I have nothing…that was perfect…”
Too bad that most Indians’ fans will blindly nod their heads at CC’s comments instead of contextualizing it properly, as it is done so well here.
by The DiaTriber on Jul 13, 2010 12:18 PM EDT reply actions 4 recs
About to post this. Makes me think of this line from Bourdain’s piece on Pekar (hash-marks added by me):
Harvey Pekar owned not just Cleveland but all those placesin the American Heartlandwhere people wake up every day, go to work, do the best they can—and in spite of the vast and overwhelming forces that conspire to disappoint them—go on, try as best as possible to do right by the people around them, to attain that most difficult of ideals: to be “good” people.
CC, you aren’t a good person.
Yet people will remember him for the full-page ad more than anything else and he will be feted upon his return by “fans” not willing to acknowledge the entire mess, in which he is more than complicit.
by The DiaTriber on Jul 13, 2010 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
This should be the front-page story on Indians.com, but I understand why Castro has to bury it in the blog.
He should have posted it here for the 75 recs it would get.
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
I’m not sure how to take it. I suppose he should not have commented on the whole thing- that’s the idiocy of it. He didn’t diss the city or team, and the feeling is shared by every Cleveland fan: we’re all sad the team had to break up. And in the grander scheme of baseball it is quite sad that many of the teams do not have markets large enough to keep the core set of players in place for a long title run.
I really thought I would be more upset by his statement, but he didn’t mean anything derogatory and is just stating the obvious. And we all know how reporters twist the words- if that is the worst that the reporter could come up with then CC couldn’t have said something too bad.
Note: I still hate the guy, but in levels of Hell he will reside, he is no longer as deep.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 13, 2010 12:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
He’s being ignorant about the realities of the situation. That’s the problem. He has his narrative, and then there’s the truth. One does not look like the other.
Blake: Thanks to you, I am damaged beyond repair!!
He has his narrative, and then there’s the truth.
Well, not quite. He has his narrative, and we have ours. Neither is “true.”
Actually both are “true”, but one is truer than the other.
What is true is that neither is the “Truth”.
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
man, oh, man, is there an outbreak of post-modernism on LGT? The anti-CC reaction here may not be “smiling-and-contemplating-the-platonic-forms-truth-with-a-capital-T” truth, but mercy—I feel pretty comfortable saying that CC’s line is wrong and false, and that ours is basically right.
by gmfrodo on Jul 14, 2010 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well, technically, C.C. is right: he was traded. There is an obvious disingenuousness in such a statement, but I think C.C. is well on his way to believing his version is the Truth. His version is also probably the prevailing version in NYC, which means LGT is probably outnumbered.
I anticipated someone pointing out that most LGTers would agree that Sabathia’s version was ridiculous, i.e., that the informed opinions of 50 or 100 people would outnumber (and outrank) the ludicrous perceptions of one equus manhattanus asinus. But, of course, truth is not determined by popular acclaim.
I’ve been trying to think of a reason why C.C. saying he was traded is any more truthful than LeBron saying he was traded.
I can’t think of one. Technically, they were both traded. In both cases, the truth is that both declared their clear intent to depart, and the team acted in both cases to derive some value out of their departure.
There really is no difference.
Also worth adding: If the MLB had the NBA’s salary maximums, we’d have made him the max offer. Crazy not to.
if they do that in baseball, i want that we will apply it to jordan brown, and never promote him to the majors, just to drive the “this front office screws its 30 year old doubles hitting prospects” people crazy.
nah, that would be known as the “41-man roster” rule.
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
The train of thought that led to this post has me wondering:
Who is the longest-tenured guy on a 40-man roster who has yet to make his major league debut?
Must not be here for baseball either. Because that isn't what we're playing.
I think you’re missing the point, which is that it’s ridiculous to complain about not keeping the team together when he himself could have gone a long way toward keeping it together by taking a discount down to $18 M per year. He chose the big money instead, fine, but acting like it was out of his hands is amazing.
In what sense was it in HIS hands? The only thing he could control was whether HE signed with Cleveland and what price he would accept. And, even then, he was limited by what the team was able/willing to pay him and by the knowledge that his signing in no way guaranteed that they’d hang on to all the other pieces they had and “keep the team together.” His signing at a discount MIGHT have helped, but it might also have hurt, just as Hafner’s and Westbrook’s contracts have made it harder for the Indians to hang on to other guys (which is not to say they would have tried, but it has certainly meant the money is tighter than it would otherwise would have been).
I think CC’s comment is pretty typical of what a lot of players seem to say in situations like this — they talk as if all owners are equal and can choose to pay what they want for any player. If that were true, then saying the team could have been kept together isn’t nonsense. But, it’s not true, as we know. That’s what CC’s comments ignore.
'If I'm not here, 'I'll be somewhere else.'' Andy Marte
How obvious does this have to get for him? If he works out an extension with the Indians, we end up with practically the entire 2007 roster together through 2010 — not entirely for the better by the way — except with Cy Clifton replacing Byrd in the rotation. Every other significant player was locked up through 2010.
by Jay on Jul 13, 2010 12:06 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I wonder where the team would have gone.
Sabathia would have been on the books for $18M in 2009. When he didn’t accept, it was easy to see where the money went: the Indians spent $10M on Kerry Wood, $5.5M on DeRosa, and $1.5M+ incentives to Pavano.
Had Sabathia signed, Wood is not under contract. Peralta probably slides to 3B to start the year, with Asdrubal at SS, Valbuena at 2B, and Garko at 1B. Perhaps the Indians go slightly above budget for $3-4M and take another Borowski-like stab at a reliever, who would be the closer or the set-up guy for Betancourt to close. Brandon Lyon signed that offseason for $4.25M with the Tigers. Jeremy Affeldt signed for 2 years, $8M.
The Indians wouldn’t have Chris Perez, but you have to take Sabathia over Perez for these next four years and live with a free agent bullpen arm. The payroll this year would be at around $75M with Sabathia alone, and $82M with Cliff Lee, still not outrageous, and $89M with Victor. Of course, Jhonny is probably gone, so it’s back to around $85M.
Still, you see why the Indians had to be either all-in for 2007-2010 on the backs of Sabathia, Lee, and Victor, or get out and start fresh.
his signing in no way guaranteed that they’d hang on to all the other pieces they had and "keep the team together."
My point is that players don’t control rosters; team managements do within the constraints of their own budgets and the realities of competing, planning for the future, etc. If CC had signed an extension with the Indians, then they had a poor year (as they DID, in fact, in 2008), a logical management decision would be to trade some of the assets knowing that a. the team was out of contention and b. you don’t have the money to hang on to all of your key guys beyond 2010. They’d at least have to think about that, anyway.
Obviously, CC could have signed an extension with the Indians. That was within his control.
'If I'm not here, 'I'll be somewhere else.'' Andy Marte
CC could have signed an extension with the Indians. That was within his control.
Every other significant player was locked up through 2010.
the fact that the indians might have made other moves subsequent to any set of hypotheticals doesn’t negate the fact that HE could have made it happen by accepting that offer.
I don’t think we actually disagree. CC could have put them in a position to keep the team together by signing an extension. What I was responding to was the implication that it was entirely up to CC. Maybe that’s not what people were implying, in which case we agree entirely (on this point, anyway!).
'If I'm not here, 'I'll be somewhere else.'' Andy Marte
At some point the money has to mean something. What if the Tribe’s offer was $10m/year? Or $5m? He would have gotten enough from Cleveland to be wealthy and secure for the rest of his life.
Perhaps, you are you saying that all players have no right to make any comments about the current salary structure? That’s fair enough, because every player has it within his right to accept less money for his team to spend on other players- and I know of no player who has done this. (I know it’s a slippery argument, but if CC had taken the $72m offer from the Tribe I could say he should have taken just $60m).
Everyone has their price. Everyone.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 13, 2010 6:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree that everyone has their price, but what gets glossed over in these discussions, over and over again, is that C.C.’s interest in getting every last dollar is not the norm for star athletes, and in particular for starting pitchers.
The norm — as illustrated by Oswalt, Peavy, Halladay, Zambrano and many others — is that star pitchers re-up with their original team for less money and eliminate the risk of getting injured in their walk years.
C.C. showed an unusual interest in getting additional marginal dollars over his first $100 million, and/or an unusual disinterest in keeping his team together for a multi-year run of contending.
Of course, everyone has their price, and $18 M per year was too little for Sabathia. That’s fine, he can bolt for more, but to do so and then say
“That wasn’t our fault. They traded us. That’s on them.”
is dishonest.
If CC said that straight up, you’re right.
To me, it sounds like it was taken out of context, or at least there was a question/statement that came before it which refines the statement.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 13, 2010 9:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
“Hey CC, what’s the absolute dumbest thing you could say?”
Steel Nick
by nickjs21 on Jul 13, 2010 10:01 PM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
Finally saw the Castro link. I’d like to amend my comments. He really needs to shut his piehole.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 13, 2010 10:10 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Who did we trade in 2008? Sabathia and Blake. Sabathia would not have been traded had he been extended, as we planned to contend in 2009. So we’re really just talking about Blake.
Fact is, they had everyone under reasonable contract, and that is the most certainty any player ever gets about any team. It was, on this precise point, an ideal situation for Sabathia to say yes, and he said no.
While hindsight is 20/20, the end result is that CC got ~$90m more by going the free agency route. I can’t fault him for turning down the hometown discount offer. In the end, the Tribe traded him knowing there was no chance the hometown discount would be enough to offset the difference – in this case $90m, but the front office had to know it would have been at least $40m. I’m not sure how someone turns that down (and it’s not like Cleveland was really his hometown).
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 13, 2010 5:53 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
First, there is no evidence that any team other than the Yankees offered more than $110 million.
Second, I think it’s reasonable to assume that the Indians eventually would have gotten up to around $105 million.
Third, the value of becoming a free agent at age 33 rather than age 35, while not immense, is worth considering.
Fourth, C.C. would have significantly cut his risk by extending his contract before the 2008 season. It turned out that risk paid off for him, but it can’t be ignored in the overall equation.
What I’m getting at here is that $90 million is an outrageous estimate for what C.C. got “extra” by bolting. He could not have assumed an offer over $130 would be forthcoming, and he absorbed extra risk, and the Indians may well have have gone over $100 million. A more well balanced estimate might be $30 million.
I’m not sure the Tribe would have gone that high in the bidding. And I think many would have faulted the team if it did (where is E5?). I suspect CC will be overpaid during this last 2 years, just like most the free agents on the market. The Yankees have the luxury of signing the Giambis and Damons to long term contracts because the first couple years are really bargains.
Besides, I can’t solely blame the players when some of the owners are throwing around wads of money.
Finally, there is a matter of perspective; and the impression of CC leaving Cleveland for the Yankees (via Milwaukee) pales to what we have recently experienced with Lebron.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 13, 2010 10:01 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hold the phone – I see the Castro link. He is a stinkin’ douche!
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge..." C. Darwin
by Spidey on Jul 13, 2010 10:08 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Agreed. I just object to the idea that it’s somehow always the player who breaks up a team. In this case, it’s obvious that CC wasn’t interested in keeping the team together and did little to make that happen. But, had he agreed to stay, there’s no reason to assume the team would have been kept together through 2010 or even 2009. That would depend on how the team played, how ticket sales and TV revenue went, and so on.
Let me emphasize that I have no interest in defending CC or LeBron or any other highly paid athlete from the charge that they want to make a lot of money. They do. And, CC is evidently an extreme case.
'If I'm not here, 'I'll be somewhere else.'' Andy Marte
Look, nobody can predict what happens with any team. Ever.
You have cost certainty with the Yankees all the time, because they can afford whatever they want. They may substantially change the roster if the team is very disappointing, but that’s the only reason. Usually, you don’t have that kind of certainty with a small-market club.
In this case, however, Sabathia did have that kind of certainty — and only Sabathia had it. The whole rest of the team is locked up to affordable contracts through 2010 or beyond, except him. If he chooses to sign, then that’s literally everybody who matters, locked up through 2010.
Sabathia had as much certainty as anyone ever has, signing with any team, that the Indians would keep the team together for at least three more seasons.
Your first sentence is my point. I don’t disagree that CC could have signed with the Indians and given the team the opportunity to retain its core for that 2-3 year window. He chose not to, and it certainly seems to be about the money. No disagreement there. But, it does take two to tango and the Indians could and quite possibly would have moved people whether or not CC signed. So, CC is wrong to imply that the Indians chose to break up the team. But, I think it’s also wrong to think (and I don’t say that YOU’RE saying this) that the Indians would be intact if CC had only signed.
'If I'm not here, 'I'll be somewhere else.'' Andy Marte
I think the mods might forgive you given the context. Plus, you’re right.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 13, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t blame CC for taking the money. I blame the system for being so stacked against us that the money was so overwhelmingly huge that he HAD to take the money.
i blame cc for saying and thinking things like “that’s on them, not us”
by Brick. on Jul 13, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And not all that surprising – he was openly recruiting LeDouche last fall (I think). He’s developing a habit of saying stupid shit.
by kennesawmountainwahoo on Jul 13, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Funny you mention that name; while processing the whole LeBron thing last weekend (particularly his astounding admission of joy at not having to “go out there and score 30 points a night”), I wondered if I’d ever heard before of a superstar athlete talking about how happy he was to not have to worry about the pressure of performing at a consistently high level (you know, being a superstar athlete). Then it hit me:
“That was definitely a factor in my decision, and something I thought about, too, you know, if I went somewhere else, they would expect me to do what I did in the last, second half in Milwaukee, and that’s kind of unrealistic. I feel like I’m going to pitch great, I’m going to pitch well, but I’m not going to be able to match stats like that.”
“It takes a lot of pressure off when you can just go out and know that if you do your job and worry about what you have to do, then those guys are going to take care of the rest,” Sabathia said. “Every game I started this year, I didn’t feel like I needed to go out and throw a shutout or go out and be perfect. Just keep the game close, and hopefully my team is going to score enough runs to win.”
Oh yeah! Now I remember!
--
"Most players will tell you that even when they're 100%, they're not really 100% ... if that makes sense."
by vbc3 on Jul 13, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It’s hard to be mad at a guy for wanting to have more talented co-workers that make his job easier. What really gets my goat in both cases is that these guys want the adulation and remuneration that comes with being a superstar, while still not having to carry that load. What a couple of douche waffles.
Come on, four billion!
In what way are CC and LeBron not superstars? They may have both choked, but they are also easily in the top 10 in the world at what they do.
Not that they aren’t both colossal douches.
Sabathia is not among the top 10 pitchers in the world — or at least, he isn’t “easily” in the top 10. This season, there are 10 starters in the AL who are ahead of him in WAR. In the NL, there are seven more ahead of him and two more who are tied with him.
Since the start of 2009, Sabathia is 12th in the majors in WAR. Ahead of him: Greinke, Halladay, Lincecum, Verlander, Felix, Cliff, Lester, Johnson, Ubaldo, Wainwright and Haren.
No, C.C. ain’t Top 10 unless the key stats are weight and salary.
Here’s all you need to know: 2007 ALCS Sabathia, L (1-2) ERA 8.80
Resident LGT results-oriented boob.
by mauichuck on Jul 17, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
His personal best gem, during the Spring of 2008, on how his situation compares (or doesn’t compare) to that of Belle, Ramirez, and Thome:
You have to have faith. Everyone here knows how I feel about this place and how much it means to me. I’ve been here since I was 17 years old.
Have faith in what? Finding lost treasure under the field to be able to afford you? You taking a deal similar to what Peavy, Oswalt, and Zambrano took?
Have faith? I’ve always maintained that he really meant “Find Cash.”
I don’t care that you took the money. Just say that you wanted the money. For once, just say that this is going to be about the biggest contract. Just say it, from the start, through the negotiation, and after you sign the deal. He didn’t say it, nor will he ever. Other athletes (Zambrano, Peavy, Oswalt, to name a few) have said all the same things Sabathia said, then went out and lived up to it. That’s why you should blame him.
You have to have faith. Everyone here knows how I feel about this place and how much it means to me. I’ve been here since I was 17 years old.
Asked what he would tell James about what it’s like to play in New York, Sabathia gushed, “There’s nothing like winning here. There’s nothing like playing here. The fans and just the whole experience. There’s nothing you can compare it to. And I’m just happy that I made the right decision.”
We didn’t offer enough years. Um, I guess that’s on us?!
At least CC picked a great week to bring this up.
"Lotta heart in Cleveland." - Ian Hunter
by Denver Tribe Fan on Jul 13, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
In a world of, what, 8 billion people, C.C. surpasses all but maybe 30 human beings at what he does best. That’s pretty amazing. Isn’t it possible that nature made up for that astounding talent by shorting him in other ways, like in judgment or class? Didn’t Albert Belle teach us anything? Or A-Rod?
Anyone want to bet that 20 years from now C.C., like most of us, will cringe when he reads things he said when he was young and brash? Or am I the only one?
If you believe it's just a game, you're also probably wondering why Santa keeps skipping your house every year.
by LeftyCatcher on Jul 14, 2010 12:23 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
This decision was too big. He’ll be rationalizing it the rest of his life.
by Jay on Jul 14, 2010 12:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
CC isn’t young and brash, he’s a grown man who happens to be pretty stupid. 18 is young and brash, 29 is a fully developed douchebag.
by Brad D on Jul 15, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
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